So hiruzen was

[Tartarus]

I don't think so, given none of those statements ever had anything to do with him.

The only statement that should be looked at with "caution" for lack of better words, is Iruka calling him the strongest ever, as that's an opinion. Kakashi's opinion was that Minato was the strongest ever, as he felt Naruto is the only one with the ability to surpass him. Madara thinks Hashirama is the strongest ever..etc, etc.

But things like God of Shinobi, the professor, etc, are all legit statements, although I do feel that people look at God of Shinobi and view it the wrong way, as I feel that the definition is not the same in the sense of S06P.

Why I believe he earned the nickname God of Shinobi is because he, in the eyes of ninja, anyway, was a god among men. He mastered everything, when a lot of ninja have trouble simply mastering one thing. Using this definition of God, IMO:

I'm not adamantly opposed to using hype, and I personally think he was the strongest kage of his time. I'm just saying the idea of kishi changing his mind on certain plot elements isn't too much of a crazy idea, as he has in the past a few times.

 

[OnPoint]

I don't think so, given none of those statements ever had anything to do with him.

The only statement that should be looked at with "caution" for lack of better words, is Iruka calling him the strongest ever, as that's an opinion. Kakashi's opinion was that Minato was the strongest ever, as he felt Naruto is the only one with the ability to surpass him. Madara thinks Hashirama is the strongest ever..etc, etc.

But things like God of Shinobi, the professor, etc, are all legit statements, although I do feel that people look at God of Shinobi and view it the wrong way, as I feel that the definition is not the same in the sense of S06P.

Why I believe he earned the nickname God of Shinobi is because he, in the eyes of ninja, anyway, was a god among men. He mastered everything, when a lot of ninja have trouble simply mastering one thing. Using this definition of God, IMO:

Yes i'm talking about Iruka's comment in particular, since that is the one which caused all the commotion. I question why:

- Jiraiya, Hiruzen's own student, believed 'everyone paled in comparison to Minato' and that Yondaime was 'unparalled'. Sounds abit fishy to me since Jiraiya lived through Sarutobi's prime years.
-

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.

 

[EliteKakashi]

I'm not adamantly opposed to using hype, and I personally think he was the strongest kage of his time. I'm just saying the idea of kishi changing his mind on certain plot elements isn't too much of a crazy idea, as he has in the past a few times.

Certainly not.

One thing I think is obvious is the power scaling since part 1. Hiruzen vs the 2 edo kages and Oro was considered a "kage-level" battle by the ANBU. Though, something even more interesting than that, is even though the ANBU looked at this as kage level battle, Enma commented that Hiruzen wasn't giving it his all/wasn't his usual self, and Orochimaru commented that old age had quite clearly effected Hiruzen's ability.

That's one thing to always consider when thinking back on the ANBU's statements. In part 1 that battle was considered kage-level, but Hiruzen wasn't giving it his all and his old age hindered him enough for Orochimaru to make a comment about it? Makes you wonder.

If that battle happened in part 2, though, kamehamehas would be flying all over the place and they'd be leaving craters in the ground and all that bunch of shit with the ridiculous power scaling Kishi has pulled.

 

[EliteKakashi]

Yes i'm talking about Iruka's comment in particular, since that is the one which caused all the commotion. I question why:

- Jiraiya, Hiruzen's own student, believed 'everyone paled in comparison to Minato' and that Yondaime was 'unparalled'. Sounds abit fishy to me since Jiraiya lived through Sarutobi's prime years.
-

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.

Yeah, that ties in to my "opinion" statement. Hashirama, Hiruzen and Minato have all been called the strongest somewhere along the line.

 

[OnPoint]

Yeah, that ties in to my "opinion" statement. Hashirama, Hiruzen and Minato have all been called the strongest somewhere along the line.

Yeah, but this time, there's a reason as to why one opinion (those who named Hiruzen as the strongest) may lose validity in the face of a contradictory statement/idea (that they were not accounting for Shodai's 'mythical' power).

 

[EliteKakashi]

Yeah, but this time, there's a reason as to why one opinion (those who named Hiruzen as the strongest) may lose validity in the face of a contradictory statement/idea (that they were not accounting for Shodai's 'mythical' power).

Maybe, though it appears people in the village are aware of how great Hashirama and Tobirama were, though:

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That ANBU member says they were hailed as the best shinobi, so their legends are certainly not unknown to Konoha.

 

[BlkMagk]

Same as it ever was

 

[OnPoint]

Maybe, though it appears people in the village are aware of how great Hashirama and Tobirama were, though:

Spoiler

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That ANBU member says they were hailed as the best shinobi, so their legends are certainly not unknown to Konoha.

Not all of their legends, since parts seemed so absurd they were simply labelled as mythical.

 

[EliteKakashi]

Not all of their legends, since parts seemed so absurd they were simply labelled as mythical.

I'm not sure how Hashirama defeating Madara and the kyuubi was somehow unknown to the village....certainly Hiruzen knew of it, given he was alive at the time(well..he trained under Hashirama anyway..no guarantee he was alive at that specific point I guess), and I can't imagine he'd just keep that secret. We know that Minato and Kushina knew of it as well.

But one way or the other, it goes to show that there are still people who believe/believed that the hokages who came before Hiruzen were 2 of the most powerful ever. It proves that there is no "factual" strongest hokage ever, as well.

 

[OnPoint]

I'm not sure how Hashirama defeating Madara and the kyuubi was somehow unknown to the village....certainly Hiruzen knew of it, given he was alive at the time(well..he trained under Hashirama anyway..no guarantee he was alive at that specific point I guess), and I can't imagine he'd just keep that secret. We know that Minato and Kushina knew of it as well.

But one way or the other, it goes to show that there are still people who believe/believed that the hokages who came before Hiruzen were 2 of the most powerful ever. It proves that there is no "factual" strongest hokage ever, as well.

Not unknown, just sounding so absurd that it was disregarded as a mere story by the majority. Consider; Madara, who at one point was labelled 'the strongest shinobi' and who's name alone (as we have seen) was capable of starting a world war, was defeated by a man whilst fully equipped with the Kyuubi, a raging natural disaster/demon who was said to be able to level mountains or create tsunamis just by swinging it's tail. To the masses, this would've seemed so far-fetched that believing such a thing was possible would possibly lead to you being labelled as a day dreamer. And so, those who then went on to label Hiruzen as the strongest among the past Hokage were simply not taking into account Shodai's seemingly 'ridiculous' feat.

To be honest, a true analysis cannot take place until we attain feats from all the previous Hokage. ^ That was just something to think about when including hype in such discussions.

 

[EliteKakashi]

Not unknown, just sounding so absurd that it was disregarded as a mere story by the majority. Consider; Madara, who at one point was labelled 'the strongest shinobi' and who's name alone (as we have seen) was capable of starting a world war, was defeated by a man whilst fully equipped with the Kyuubi, a raging natural disaster/demon who was said to be able to level mountains or create tsunamis just by swinging it's tail. To the masses, this would've seemed so far-fetched that believing such a thing was possible would possibly lead to you being labelled as a day dreamer. And so, those who then went on to label Hiruzen as the strongest among the past Hokage were simply not taking into account Shodai's seemingly 'ridiculous' feat.

To be honest, a true analysis cannot take place until we attain feats from all the previous Hokage. ^ That was just something to think about when including hype in such discussions.

The only issue with that is Mito went along with Hashirama to seal the kyuubi in to herself(well, I don't know if that was her exact purpose, but that's what she did).

It's known that Hashirama had the ability to bend bijuus to his will, Yamato stated as much, so we know with that alone, that the "legend" of Hashirama is not totally unknown. On top of that, Kushina knew that Mito sealed the kyuubi in to herself once Hashirama gained control of it, and at that point it became Hashirama vs Madara.

So unless the legend was kept completely secret by these peope(and I guess that's a possibility), I'm not sure how it'd be just disregarded by others. It certainly couldn't be unknown to Hiruzen, who was confident enough in his ability to face against Hashirama, Tobirama and Orochimaru altogether at the age of 69.

Unless you just want to argue that Kishi hadn't decided he was going to give Hashirama that feat yet(although, it was told in part 1 that he defeated Madara, so that would probably be a stretch).

I can't buy that people could be dumbfounded/be in disbelief by/over Hashirama's ability, when they were more than willing to call Hiruzen a god among shinobi, and that ANBU regarded both he and his brother as "the best shinobi".

I just can't buy the statement that Hashirama's power was considered a fairy tale, but maybe that's just me. Kushina showed no disbelief/hinted towards any doubt when she told Naruto the story.

You could also consider the fact that the village saw/knows about Minato defeating the kyuubi, so they know from that alone that someone who holds the title of hokage is capable of some ungodly feats. They also saw/know that a retired Hiruzen and that small group of shinobi drove the kyuubi out of the village, as well.

Doing things such as that seem to be expected of the person who carries the title of kage/hokage. The sandaime raikage fought the 8 tails by himself, and Hiruzen gained the title of the strongest of his generation of kages even with that, so there's another thing to back up "kages should be capable of such things".

 

[OnPoint]

The only issue with that is Mito went along with Hashirama to seal the kyuubi in to herself(well, I don't know if that was her exact purpose, but that's what she did).

It's known that Hashirama had the ability to bend bijuus to his will, Yamato stated as much, so we know with that alone, that the "legend" of Hashirama is not totally unknown. On top of that, Kushina knew that Mito sealed the kyuubi in to herself once Hashirama gained control of it, and at that point it became Hashirama vs Madara.

So unless the legend was kept completely secret by these peope(and I guess that's a possibility), I'm not sure how it'd be just disregarded by others. It certainly couldn't be unknown to Hiruzen, who was confident enough in his ability to face against Hashirama, Tobirama and Orochimaru altogether at the age of 69.

Unless you just want to argue that Kishi hadn't decided he was going to give Hashirama that feat yet(although, it was told in part 1 that he defeated Madara, so that would probably be a stretch).

I can't buy that people could be dumbfounded/be in disbelief by/over Hashirama's ability, when they were more than willing to call Hiruzen a god among shinobi, and that ANBU regarded both he and his brother as "the best shinobi".

I just can't buy the statement that Hashirama's power was considered a fairy tale, but maybe that's just me. Kushina showed no disbelief/hinted towards any doubt when she told Naruto the story.

You could also consider the fact that the village saw/knows about Minato defeating the kyuubi, so they know from that alone that someone who holds the title of hokage is capable of some ungodly feats. They also saw/know that a retired Hiruzen and that small group of shinobi drove the kyuubi out of the village, as well.

Doing things such as that seem to be expected of the person who carries the title of kage/hokage. The sandaime raikage fought the 8 tails by himself, and Hiruzen gained the title of the strongest of his generation of kages even with that, so there's another thing to back up "kages should be capable of such things".

- Yes, Shodai had help, but how much is not yet known.

- Hashirama's abilities were known, but this feat of taking on Madara & Kurama certainly couldn't have been general knowledge. "The people that heard about his strength regarded him as a myth just like the Sage of 6 Paths" - Kabuto has no other reason for stating this, there's simply nothing more in the story (thus far) which implies this. It's just like how Kakashi couldn't believe in Rikudo Sennin or how Jiraiya believed the Rinnegan to be a myth until he had seen it on Nagato's very face.

- Perhaps Kishimoto did choose to add the feat at a later date, though we have no evidence of this.

- Kabuto's words are canon, the people just couldn't accept such power or feats as literal truth; that's why the idea was disregarded among many. The title given to Hiruzen should be taken with a pinch of salt since he wasn't necessarily being compared to Shodai here. Also remember, Hiruzen was the most

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Hokage and so character bias plays its part too. Further, the ANBU's statement could simply refer to the fact that the Senju brothers founded the village, since 'best' does not ultimately equate to 'strongest'.

- Kushina knew her husband fought against the Kyuubi; who were those that named Hiruzen the strongest all those years ago comparing him to? They've disregarded part of Shodai's power and they've yet to witness Minato's feat. Seeing is believing to most people, and since Sarutobi was the only one they'd witnessed/could accept to be 'legit', he was the one who received the praise.

- Perhaps, though there is no indication of what time period the statements about Hiruzen began to surface. Before Minato's death? Between that day and the beginning of the series? No one can say, though I think it was before Minato's feat since Hiruzen had already retired and seemed a little out of shape. His best days were surely before that time.

- Fighting the Uchiha Madara (who's name can start wars) and the Kyuubi, and (presumably in the case of the villagers) killing the former is on a different level.

 

[EliteKakashi]

- Yes, Shodai had help, but how much is not yet known.

All we know at this point is that at some point during the fight Mito sealed it in to herself. What she did prior to or after that is unknown.

- Hashirama's abilities were known, but this feat of taking on Madara & Kurama certainly couldn't have been general knowledge. "The people that heard about his strength regarded him as a myth just like the Sage of 6 Paths" - Kabuto has no other reason for stating this, there's simply nothing more in the story (thus far) which implies this. It's just like how Kakashi couldn't believe in Rikudo Sennin or how Jiraiya believed the Rinnegan to be a myth until he had seen it on Nagato's very face.

The valley of the end didn't give people any indication? It was built in the honor of their battle. I understand Kabuto said that, and there's no reason for him to lie about it, but it confuses me about how the villagers considered this feat a myth despite so much showing that he did it/people in the village who KNEW he did it. If Hashirama's ability to control bijuus was known, that makes the feat much more believable, doesn't it? It doesn't make it any less impressive, but it makes it much more possible.

- Kabuto's words are canon, the people just couldn't accept such power or feats as literal truth; that's why the idea was disregarded among many. The title given to Hiruzen should be taken with a pinch of salt since he wasn't necessarily being compared to Shodai here. Also remember, Hiruzen was the most

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Hokage and so character bias plays its part too. Further, the ANBU's statement could simply refer to the fact that the Senju brothers founded the village, since 'best' does not ultimately equate to 'strongest'.

Indeed they are. I'm not really trying to discount what he said, but it confuses me so greatly how anyone wouldn't believe what Hashirama did. And I agree, I already went in to detail about how I believe he became known as god of shinobi, but for his abilities to be as impressive as people claim, I'm not sure how Hashirama doing what he did is so unbelievable.

- Kushina knew her husband fought against the Kyuubi; who were those that named Hiruzen the strongest all those years ago comparing him to? They've disregarded part of Shodai's power and they've yet to witness Minato's feat. Seeing is believing to most people, and since Sarutobi was the only one they'd witnessed/could accept to be 'legit', he was the one who received the praise.

Like I said regarding his title as God of Shinobi, I believe he was labeled that due to his ability to master every single ninja art, when most people struggle with just one. Kakashi, someone who became world renowned and is considered someone worthy of the title of hokage by people such as Shikaku and Jiraiya has only mastered one of the ninja arts, according to the databook, anyway..that being ninjutsu. Where as Hiruzen mastered, nin, tai and genjutsu.

Hiruzen was being compared to people such as Sakumo Hatake, the sannin(granted they were his students, they still became world renowned), and the kages who were alive in his generation..2 of which, in the 3rd Kazekage and 3rd Raikage, were considered the strongest kages in their village's history....at least, that's who I assume he drew comparisons to, given those were some of the "legends" of his time.

- Perhaps, though there is no indication of what time period the statements about Hiruzen began to surface. Before Minato's death? Between that day and the beginning of the series? No one can say, though I think it was before Minato's feat since Hiruzen had already retired and seemed a little out of shape. His best days were surely before that time.

Yeah, definitely safe to assume it was prior to Minato taking over. He was already in his 50s at that point and had already hailed as hokage for 30+ years as well.

- Fighting the Uchiha Madara (who's name can start wars) and the Kyuubi, and (presumably in the case of the villagers) killing the former is on a different level.

I was going off that his ability to control bijuus was known..which, like I said earlier, doesn't necessarily make his feat less "impressive", but it does make it more believable. It would also depend on how well known Mito being there with him and sealing the kyuubi in to herself was.

It also still strikes me as puzzling that Hiruzen felt he was capable of fighting Hashirama, Tobirama and Orochimaru, and that he felt he was capable of defeating them. The man obviously was pretty confident in his own abilities, even being 69.

Do you attribute that to just his "will of fire"? Or do you think he believes he truly is stronger than all 3 of them together, despite the legend of Hashirama? Did Kishi just not plan on making Hashirama and Orochimaru as strong as they are now at that point? Hard to say, but going off Hashirama's feats, it seems it'd have been difficult enough for Hiruzen to defeat him alone, much less with another kage and one of the legendary 3.

 

[OnPoint]

All we know at this point is that at some point during the fight Mito sealed it in to herself. What she did prior to or after that is unknown.

Agreed.

The valley of the end didn't give people any indication? It was built in the honor of their battle. I understand Kabuto said that, and there's no reason for him to lie about it, but it confuses me about how the villagers considered this feat a myth despite so much showing that he did it/people in the village who KNEW he did it. If Hashirama's ability to control bijuus was known, that makes the feat much more believable, doesn't it? It doesn't make it any less impressive, but it makes it much more possible.

I agree, it's slightly baffling considering there are quite a few things which give away the scale of the feat. I honestly believe it has less to do with Shodai, and more to do with Madara, since this man was feared throughout the shinobi world. But there remains nothing else in the story which Kabuto could've been referring to, unless Hashirama has more feats we are yet to hear about. Kabuto seemed to be under the impression that everyone who had heard about his powers believed them to be mythical, perhaps even something he had picked up from Orochimaru.

Indeed they are. I'm not really trying to discount what he said, but it confuses me so greatly how anyone wouldn't believe what Hashirama did. And I agree, I already went in to detail about how I believe he became known as god of shinobi, but for his abilities to be as impressive as people claim, I'm not sure how Hashirama doing what he did is so unbelievable.

Well, Hiruzen's feat of learning all the jutsu in Konoha at that time isn't really something you can compare to an outright battle feat. Hiruzen's lacking in big game feats, and I hope we do get to see Prime Hiruzen's true power. Again, it's difficult to see how Hashirama's power was so 'unbelievable', though at this point it remains canon, and I can't imagine Kishimoto would give him another feat.

Like I said regarding his title as God of Shinobi, I believe he was labeled that due to his ability to master every single ninja art, when most people struggle with just one. Kakashi, someone who became world renowned and is considered someone worthy of the title of hokage by people such as Shikaku and Jiraiya has only mastered one of the ninja arts, according to the databook, anyway..that being ninjutsu. Where as Hiruzen mastered, nin, tai and genjutsu.

Yeah, I agree.

Hiruzen was being compared to people such as Sakumo Hatake, the sannin(granted they were his students, they still became world renowned), and the kages who were alive in his generation..2 of which, in the 3rd Kazekage and 3rd Raikage, were considered the strongest kages in their village's history....at least, that's who I assume he drew comparisons to, given those were some of the "legends" of his time.

Yep, I also believe that Hiruzen being above the Kages of his generation is canon, since there is nothing in the manga which contradicts the original statement.

Yeah, definitely safe to assume it was prior to Minato taking over. He was already in his 50s at that point and had already hailed as hokage for 30+ years as well.

Agreed.

I was going off that his ability to control bijuus was known..which, like I said earlier, doesn't necessarily make his feat less "impressive", but it does make it more believable. It would also depend on how well known Mito being there with him and sealing the kyuubi in to herself was.

It also still strikes me as puzzling that Hiruzen felt he was capable of fighting Hashirama, Tobirama and Orochimaru, and that he felt he was capable of defeating them. The man obviously was pretty confident in his own abilities, even being 69.

Do you attribute that to just his "will of fire"? Or do you think he believes he truly is stronger than all 3 of them together, despite the legend of Hashirama? Did Kishi just not plan on making Hashirama and Orochimaru as strong as they are now at that point? Hard to say, but going off Hashirama's feats, it seems it'd have been difficult enough for Hiruzen to defeat him alone, much less with another kage and one of the legendary 3.

Will of fire, definately. There is no Kage, dead or alive, who can single handedly take on any combination of Shodai, Tobirama, Hiruzen, Minato and Danzo. Hashirama couldn't beat any pairing from that bunch for example. We can only estimate how strong Prime Hiruzen really was, though I personally believe most of his hype has been weakened interms of validity in the face of Jiraiya's and Kabuto's statements, and he lacks credible feats since he would've 'defeated' his former mentors (had they not been Edo) with mere paper bombs, which is absurd considering the hype Hashirama has received. They were not at full capacity once Orochimaru suppressed their personalities, though this was necessary in order to force them to fight Sarutobi. One could put this down to the fact that Kishimoto had not planned for such a rise in power levels, though we will never truely be able to say. There are just too many inconsistencies in the manga at the moment.

 

[BloodSeed]

People need to remember that Hiruzen came out of retirement to resume his role as kage. During this time, i believe he decided to enjoy his retirement and not stress so much about being a ninja and live the rest of his life in peace. The current kages especially onoki whom majority who disagree with Hiruzen's hype claim to be in much better shape than hiruzen, have been leaders of their village and are still are. They havent let themselves go so to speak. Even when Hiruzen was brought back out of retirement, he certainly didnt do two bad against orochimaru and 2 previous hokage's, though yes i agree the hokages werent at their strongest, but the same can be said about hiruzen. In the scenario that old hiruzen was in, i can see quiet alot of high level shinobi's doing worse than what he did

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so how many years do you think minato reign as a hokage?
hiruzen died at 68 - 69
hiruzen age when minato become the hokage is 69-12 = 57 - (the years your saying hiruzen enjoyed his retirement)

oh my god you better choose a good answer its a double edge sword :rofl:

:i edited would to DO

 

[Waltz]

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so how many years would you think minato reign as a hokage?
hiruzen died at 68 - 69
hiruzen age when minato become the hokage is 69-12 = 57 - (the years your saying hiruzen enjoyed his retirement)

oh my god you better choose a good answer its a double edge sword :rofl:

It's actually the 12 you mentioned.

 

[KilltheTrolls]

He had no kekei Gekei or Tail Beast or doujutsu

But he was strong , idk tho

First of all, you don't need a Kekkei Genkai or Bijuu to be a badass, actually, Hiruzen himself said the worth of ninja doesn't come from the strength of ninjutsu alone _O-. The fact that he has no kekkei Genkai or Bijuu is what makes him one of my favorite.

OP, i don't think Hiruzen was overrated. Age was not nice to Hiruzen, we have not seen a quarter of what he can do, Orochimaru even said that if Hiruzen was just 10 years younger, he would have beat him. Hiruzen is a ninja that is capable of using Shiki Fujin more than once without dying, due to his Shadow clones. He is a very powerful and actually underrated ninja.

 

[BloodSeed]

It's actually the 12 you mentioned.

nope the 12 is the years when the 9tails attacked up to present.

what do you think blaze release means on his comment?

if he is talking about a longer years that make hiruzen deteriorate his skills then we have a problem
if he said its just 1 year then i doubt hiruzen would be just weak as that. look at chiyo or jiraiya

 

[Lordlloyd7]

I will only partly agree, Sarutobi took down tobirama and hashirama and ½ orochimaru... None beats that...

He didnt use those edos to there full potential.

 

[Lordlloyd7]

First of all, you don't need a Kekkei Genkai or Bijuu to be a badass, actually, Hiruzen himself said the worth of ninja doesn't come from the strength of ninjutsu alone _O-. The fact that he has no kekkei Genkai or Bijuu is what makes him one of my favorite.

OP, i don't think Hiruzen was overrated. Age was not nice to Hiruzen, we have not seen a quarter of what he can do, Orochimaru even said that if Hiruzen was just 10 years younger, he would have beat him. Hiruzen is a ninja that is capable of using Shiki Fujin more than once without dying, due to his Shadow clones. He is a very powerful and actually underrated ninja.

Still aint beating hashi....