So hiruzen was

Over-rated?

  • Yes

    Votes: 11 39.3%
  • No

    Votes: 17 60.7%

  • Total voters
    28

Gooner4life

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He is definitely one of the most skilled shinobi in history if not the most, and the 1000 jutsu proves this. He may not have what they have in raw power, but his skill was unsurpassed, you don't get the reputation he did for nothing. In all of those Shinobi World Wars, he would have fought many of those kages, and would have fought similar battles and the fact that he survived until his age while many of them died, is testament alone to his abilities.
 

ChrisWolf

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Iruka said that the the third was considered to be the strongest.....he would not have said this if it were not true, but I think that excluded hashirama because hashi was the founder and I think it was given that he is the strongest so Hiru is the strongest next to him.
 

OnPoint

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Kishimoto has not overhyped Hiruzen, all we can take from some of the statements is that the villagers did. The people who hyped Sarutobi did so believing that Shodai's power was a myth/fairytale, in a similar way to how Kakashi and Jiraiya just did not believe that someone as powerful as Rikudo Sennin could've existed. Simply, one could not fathom how a man could defeat Madara (a name feared throughout the world) along with the Kyuubi, so it was disregarded as just a story. In saying that, Hiruzen > Kages of his generation is canon, no amount of wank will change that.
 
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Joon

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But here's the thing, everything about Hiruzen is just hype without fact. Kabuto also called Hashirama's power that of a fairytale, as in something that isn't really believable and soemthing about him being the strongest shinobi after the Sage. I'm not sure if I'm remembering right or if the translation was correct. There's something that's really pressing, a lot of the Japanese language can't be translated 100% into the English language so there's probably several different translations which try to give a baring on what is really meant to be said. It's taken too literal sometimes but mainly it should be taken as a general area of what is trying to be said.

Anyway, we hear hype and now we generally get feats to back it up. With Hashirama, although it's an indirect feat comparison; Madara's use of Mokuton can be translated into how Hashirama's used to be in a scale of power. Then you have Madara's hype over Hashirama has been seen partially, and implicated through flashbacks. Madara acts as a primary source although he can be subject to some level of exaggeration but when you look at it, the powers that have been demonstrated by Madara minus the Rinningan are assumed to have been had when he last fought Hashirama. And if Hashirama was able to sustain combat with him, let alone win, implies Hashi's strength to some degree although still vague. Though vague it's still more than fights Hiruzen has been shown in. We've only seen the Third fight once unfortunately. However there are no real other implications other than the hype. There's no battle stories seen through the eyes previous enemies as a primary or even history text as a secondary to give further implications to his power.

This, and for reasons I've stated about relevance, is why I'm skeptical to Hiruzen being strong enough either past nor present (during part 1) to be considered the strongest Hokage.

I get confuse with "Hype." Is it statements and not feats shown by a certain Character? I look at Manga as more of a Book than visual such as Picture Book or Anime. What "feats" could really show that Hurizen is the "Strongest Kage?" Ever word of Kishi ( or Translators) is evidence and not "feats." IDK, that's me. I agree to disagree, [Bold] It was not stated that he was ever consider "The Strongest Hokage," but Kage.
 
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Reborn

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Iruka said that the the third was considered to be the strongest.....he would not have said this if it were not true, but I think that excluded hashirama because hashi was the founder and I think it was given that he is the strongest so Hiru is the strongest next to him.

How would he be excluding Hashirama? Hashirama was Hokage as well. Because he was a founder doesn't mean he was excluded from the grouping. Iruka is a young borderline average chuunin level shinobi with no seemingly extensive knowledge of the shinobi world. What makes his word credible as concrete fact over people, especially somebody like Kabuto; who is widly professed in the shinobi world thanks to his snooping and studying of these aspects. Or even Madara for that matter, who has first hand accounts of the skills of somebody like Hashirama. I'm not using this to increase anything for Hashirama's sake but to show that Iruka isn't exactly an expert on these matters.

Also given the fact that Hiruzen showed up when Iruka was lecturing the class had nothing to do what he said :rolleyes: there's the term brown noser for a reason.
 

Reborn

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I get confuse with "Hype." Is it statements and not feats shown by a certain Character? I look at Manga as more of a Book than visual such as Picture Book or Anime. What "feats" could really show that Hurizen is the "Strongest Kage?" Ever word of Kishi ( or Translators) is evidence and not "feats." IDK, that's me. I agree to diagree, [Bold] It was not stated that he was ever consider "The Strongest Hokage," but Kage.

If you look at it as a book, then you understand that there's context correct? A book may say something and suggest another. It's a contradiction but it's the perspective of the reader. For me, I don't see anything that makes Hiruzen considered to be the strongest of the Hokage. Even if I took the hype of his abilities that he had and considered it 100% fact; 1000 techniques (of which over 90% remain a mystery) how would that compare to what Hashirama or even Minato has done thus far? Lets not forget, everything we've seen is fact as well. We've seen Mokuton used and has been confirmed that Hashirama has had all these powers and then some. History has talked about his control over Bijuu, his defeat of Madara (who is currently using mainly his Mangekyou abilities to desimate the playing field and 5 shinobi who are supposed to be the strongest shinobi alive currently)
 

The Hidden Shinobi

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Post #14 is complete BS btw all those quotes are completely wrong. It said he was know not he is also kabuto also said he was know not he was.
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This, I seriously think prime hiruzen may have been one of the best shinobi's around. You can see kishi put some of his inspiration of DBZ into hiruzen and kishi would never make the hokage weak compared to the other kages of his generation it's the main characters home village hokages are always strong and most of the time the strongest of all the kages.

From what hiruzen did against oro weak edo hashi and weak edo tobirama; going up against the 3 off them at this level already he was already deadly.

Once again he is a very powerful shinobi, Overrated by fodders and villagers yes but he is still very powerful.
 

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Hiruzen was 69 when fighting orochimaru and 2 edo kages. He originally RETIRED 16 years ago, at age 53 giving the title to minato. He is old and extremely dangerous. He was well past his time, seeing he was 16 years over his original reign of kage. I wouldn't be surprised if people saying " strongest kage of his era " " strongest hokage of all time " " god of shinobi " we're true cause for an old man he did some damage. Imagine a prime high 20s to early 30s hiruzen, now that must of been one extremely powerful shinobi. Edo madara level? No, of course not but he would be right under him.
 

ChrisWolf

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How would he be excluding Hashirama? Hashirama was Hokage as well. Because he was a founder doesn't mean he was excluded from the grouping. Iruka is a young borderline average chuunin level shinobi with no seemingly extensive knowledge of the shinobi world. What makes his word credible as concrete fact over people, especially somebody like Kabuto; who is widly professed in the shinobi world thanks to his snooping and studying of these aspects. Or even Madara for that matter, who has first hand accounts of the skills of somebody like Hashirama. I'm not using this to increase anything for Hashirama's sake but to show that Iruka isn't exactly an expert on these matters.

Also given the fact that Hiruzen showed up when Iruka was lecturing the class had nothing to do what he said :rolleyes: there's the term brown noser for a reason.

I agree with that but when you take into consideration the manner in which he said that and the fact that he was saying it to a class in which he was trusted to educate (I'm implying he wouldn't say things in a manner that suggested they were a fact and not opinion like that and not actually have reason to believe they were a fact and not an opinion) by this I would irukas statement can be trusted.

Hashirama was the hokage but I still believe it is possible for him have meant hashirama was excluded from this when he said his just because hashi is a legend and founder of and much more then just an hokage, possibly even, it cild be that he was considered the 1st hokage because he founded the village after his time before the concept and rules of hokage was actually completely introduced to the village. Meaning as far as the official hokage go Hiru could be considered the strongest.....but that is just speculation! Believe me I understand the fault in that idea.
 

Reborn

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Hiruzen was 69 when fighting orochimaru and 2 edo kages. He originally RETIRED 16 years ago, at age 53 giving the title to minato. He is old and extremely dangerous. He was well past his time, seeing he was 16 years over his original reign of kage. I wouldn't be surprised if people saying " strongest kage of his era " " strongest hokage of all time " " god of shinobi " we're true cause for an old man he did some damage. Imagine a prime high 20s to early 30s hiruzen, now that must of been one extremely powerful shinobi. Edo madara level? No, of course not but he would be right under him.

So you're suggesting that Hiruzen in his prime would be right under Edo Madara -_- really?

I agree with that but when you take into consideration the manner in which he said that and the fact that he was saying it to a class in which he was trusted to educate (I'm implying he wouldn't say things in a manner that suggested they were a fact and not opinion like that and not actually have reason to believe they were a fact and not an opinion) by this I would irukas statement can be trusted.

Hashirama was the hokage but I still believe it is possible for him have meant hashirama was excluded from this when he said his just because hashi is a legend and founder of and much more then just an hokage, possibly even, it cild be that he was considered the 1st hokage because he founded the village after his time before the concept and rules of hokage was actually completely introduced to the village. Meaning as far as the official hokage go Hiru could be considered the strongest.....but that is just speculation! Believe me I understand the fault in that idea.

The mannor of which he said it was in a flattering manor and when Hiruzen had made his appearance to the class. Iruka's tone was that in flattery, to show off and to give some sort of reassurance to the class of how powerful their leader is. Iruka is hardly qualified to make such a statement and claim it as fact having not even been around when any of the Hokage were in their prime and knowing only from what has been told in the history books which is second hand and hardly has every bit of information pertaining to Legends such as the Hokage. There's some things that can't be put into text. Again, I will say, Iruka was flattering the Hokage and just because he was placed in a position to teach, doesn't mean his position as an educator makes his opinion correct or more credible than people who can be considered scholars in some areas (shinobi who study more of the subject than he does or have first hand accounts). I stand by what I say that Iruka is hardly a credible source to make such a statement on the power of the Five Kage to make the comparison he did.

Hashirama is considered more than just the Hokage yes, but he's considered Hokage. By the standard your saying he was only couting Tobirama, and Minato along with Hiruzen in his statement to address all the Hokage which isn't very convincing. You can't assume that Iruka meant to skip over Hashirama just because Hashirama proved to be stronger than and more significant than Hiruzen. What you're suggesting is that Iruka was right and you're just cutting out a factor that would make him wrong. That being said, I refer back to my previous statement, Iruka is hardly capable of making the comparison becuase there's no indication that would suggest he was not including Hashirama. Just becaues of all that stuff, it doesn't top the fact that Hashirama was elected as the first Hokage. How can we assume that Iruka meant to exclude him? Were you expecting those little ones to pick up on the context of how great the First Hokage was so much so that they could comprehend what their teacher meant by that if he was trying to exclude the Hokage.
 

EliteKakashi

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There's a reason Hiruzen ruled as hokage for what appears to be a good 40-45 years(counting when he came back out of retirement as well), when most kages die at a young age/not very long in to their tenures.

And that's not because he was weak. He had to be among the strongest ever to live that long as a kage...no explanation for otherwise, especially with him being apart of the wars.
 

ChrisWolf

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So you're suggesting that Hiruzen in his prime would be right under Edo Madara -_- really?



The mannor of which he said it was in a flattering manor and when Hiruzen had made his appearance to the class. Iruka's tone was that in flattery, to show off and to give some sort of reassurance to the class of how powerful their leader is. Iruka is hardly qualified to make such a statement and claim it as fact having not even been around when any of the Hokage were in their prime and knowing only from what has been told in the history books which is second hand and hardly has every bit of information pertaining to Legends such as the Hokage. There's some things that can't be put into text. Again, I will say, Iruka was flattering the Hokage and just because he was placed in a position to teach, doesn't mean his position as an educator makes his opinion correct or more credible than people who can be considered scholars in some areas (shinobi who study more of the subject than he does or have first hand accounts). I stand by what I say that Iruka is hardly a credible source to make such a statement on the power of the Five Kage to make the comparison he did.

Hashirama is considered more than just the Hokage yes, but he's considered Hokage. By the standard your saying he was only couting Tobirama, and Minato along with Hiruzen in his statement to address all the Hokage which isn't very convincing. You can't assume that Iruka meant to skip over Hashirama just because Hashirama proved to be stronger than and more significant than Hiruzen. What you're suggesting is that Iruka was right and you're just cutting out a factor that would make him wrong. That being said, I refer back to my previous statement, Iruka is hardly capable of making the comparison becuase there's no indication that would suggest he was not including Hashirama. Just becaues of all that stuff, it doesn't top the fact that Hashirama was elected as the first Hokage. How can we assume that Iruka meant to exclude him? Were you expecting those little ones to pick up on the context of how great the First Hokage was so much so that they could comprehend what their teacher meant by that if he was trying to exclude the Hokage.


I disagree with the flattery part, I do think he was partly flattering him but at the same time he simply would not have made tht statement if he did not have strong reason to believe it was true.

I agree entirely with the stuff you said about hashi being hokage because when I stated that theory I was merely suggesting it as a possibility not trying to say that's what I believe, because I honestly don't believe that....so there's no discussion to be had on that part.

Honestly I do believe hashi was stronger than Hiru but I am not willing to accept that kishi simply "changed his mind" or made a mistake, there must be some reasoning behind this.
 

Tartarus

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I disagree with the flattery part, I do think he was partly flattering him but at the same time he simply would not have made tht statement if he did not have strong reason to believe it was true.

I agree entirely with the stuff you said about hashi being hokage because when I stated that theory I was merely suggesting it as a possibility not trying to say that's what I believe, because I honestly don't believe that....so there's no discussion to be had on that part.

Honestly I do believe hashi was stronger than Hiru but I am not willing to accept that kishi simply "changed his mind" or made a mistake, there must be some reasoning behind this.
I doubt that. Part 1 is full on inconsistencies that changed over time. Water Dragon jutsu originally took 4o seals, using suiton without water nearby was considered godly, sveral characters refer to kabuto's adopted parent as a "he", and Oro implies that Kakashi hasn't had his sharingan for very long. Kishi changing his mind isn't too farfetched, considering how early in the story Hiruzen's hype was built up.
 

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ChrisWolf

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I doubt that. Part 1 is full on inconsistencies that changed over time. Water Dragon jutsu originally took 4o seals, using suiton without water nearby was considered godly, sveral characters refer to kabuto's adopted parent as a "he", and Oro implies that Kakashi hasn't had his sharingan for very long. Kishi changing his mind isn't too farfetched, considering how early in the story Hiruzen's hype was built up.

I am too lazy to really explain why you are wrong, but you are.

Im not going to argue it lol
 

Exaar

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Well we don't really know how powerful Hiruzen in his prime was, All we have is the Databooks/Hypes/Old hiruzen Feats to go on.

We can only piece his known Hype/Feats together with the small amount that was Given and make an assumption based on that.

I'm not getting into the whole Hiruzen thing because there's no doubt someone will turn this into yet another hashirama vs Hiruzen Thread.
All i'm going to say it People seem Forget that the hiruzen we know (Old hiruzen) was far weaker than his prime days, People keep saying "Hashirama/Tobirama wern't at full power blah blah" yet totally ignore or forget that fact Hiruzen was also weaker, so it kind of put them on equal footing.

Also people seem to misunderstand Iruka's statement, Irkua wasn't stating his personal opinion, He was just Stating what was said about him in the past, Be it By the leaf village/"fodders" Or other village's
 
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EliteKakashi

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I doubt that. Part 1 is full on inconsistencies that changed over time. Water Dragon jutsu originally took 4o seals, using suiton without water nearby was considered godly, sveral characters refer to kabuto's adopted parent as a "he", and Oro implies that Kakashi hasn't had his sharingan for very long. Kishi changing his mind isn't too farfetched, considering how early in the story Hiruzen's hype was built up.

The difference between those statements and Hiruzen being regarded as one of the strongest ever is the fact that those statements have been retconned...and I also don't recall Oro saying Kakashi's sharingan hasn't been there long, but that's irrelevant anyway.

Hiruzen being one of the strongest ever isn't some far fetched idea. He was trained by Hashirama and Tobirama, and held the title of hokage for a total of like 40-45 years..and this was a man who was in several wars and etc. I think it's stupid to debate who was the strongest hokage ever, I don't personally believe their is one...but trying to disregard Hiruzen's hype, when NONE of it has ever been debated or retconned in any way, seems silly to me.
 

OnPoint

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The difference between those statements and Hiruzen being regarded as one of the strongest ever is the fact that those statements have been retconned...and I also don't recall Oro saying Kakashi's sharingan hasn't been there long, but that's irrelevant anyway.

Hiruzen being one of the strongest ever isn't some far fetched idea. He was trained by Hashirama and Tobirama, and held the title of hokage for a total of like 40-45 years..and this was a man who was in several wars and etc. I think it's stupid to debate who was the strongest hokage ever, I don't personally believe their is one...but trying to disregard Hiruzen's hype, when NONE of it has ever been debated or retconned in any way, seems silly to me.

Not reconned, but other statements allow us to question it's validity.
 

EliteKakashi

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Not reconned, but other statements allow us to question it's validity.

I don't think so, given none of those statements ever had anything to do with him.

The only statement that should be looked at with "caution" for lack of better words, is Iruka calling him the strongest ever, as that's an opinion. Kakashi's opinion was that Minato was the strongest ever, as he felt Naruto is the only one with the ability to surpass him. Madara thinks Hashirama is the strongest ever..etc, etc.

But things like God of Shinobi, the professor, etc, are all legit statements, although I do feel that people look at God of Shinobi and view it the wrong way, as I feel that the definition is not the same in the sense of S06P.

Why I believe he earned the nickname God of Shinobi is because he, in the eyes of ninja, anyway, was a god among men. He mastered everything, when a lot of ninja have trouble simply mastering one thing. Using this definition of God, IMO:

4. a man who has qualities regarded as making him superior to other men
 
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