Proof that Second Mizukage > Second Hokage (Actual Explanation Inside)

[DeViliShChild]

I think the fight could go either way...

The 2nd hokage in my eyes does have the lightning blade, i read his bio an if his bio says it, thats good enough for me. And with that sword and the bringer of darkness genjutsu i think he could win. THe 2nd mizukage turning to water would have the same effect as when suigetsu told sasuke to use the chidori on him while he was holding killer bee, or the lightnig sword Cee put to suigetsu when they fought. I still dont fully understand the oil thing but that will only be useful if he gets it off in time.

Sword and Darkness are anime only, not manga. He does not have either

 

[USSJ Future Trunks]

just because the 2nd mizukage is from the hozuki clan doesn't mean he can use the same jutsu as suigetsu.

hes been shown he can waterise his body to free himself from gaaras sand prison.

Genjutsu abilities

like?

Supreme detection abilities

muu had that and he died

S/T technique which is at least on par with minato's

how do you know

water techniques mastery at least on kisame's level

no it wasnt

He had a hell lot of experince in fighting.

so does mizukage

what about that lightning blade tobirama had? that would destroy the hozuki clan kekkai genkai

filler

which means its technically doesnt exist...its a filler

implying that a cartoon is somehow less real than a comic book considering they are both fiction and both "dont exist"

also, tobirama is the best water release manipulator.

no he isnt and personal opinion with no proof doesnt apply

Edo tensei.
He can summon second raikage and first hokage.

proof please

Sword of thunder god.

filler

Also the Second Hokage's water techniques were said to be of such a massive magnitude

no they werent. they were said to be impressive because he made alot of water on a roof in the middle of the village rather than needing a nearby lake.

tobirama got this coz he is best water realease user in history of narutoverse

no actually kisame is

 

[tracytracy22]

hes been shown he can waterise his body to free himself from gaaras sand prison.

His hydrification technique is different to the one suigetsu has used. Suigetsu completely turns into water so physical attacks are useless.

But the 2nd mizukage seems to stay solid but can excrete oil and water from his body. Thos are 2 completely different things.

 

[vaibhav16591]

Second Mizukage vs Second Hokage
​

As with my last Thread this is a thread exploring a largely underrated/not talked about Kage of History and pitting him against a very well known Kage to show how strong this unknown Kage really is.

This is a thread showing why the Second Mizukage can arguably stronger than the Second Hokage. However this thread doesn't account for Edo Tensei

The Second Mizukage has shown a great feat of beating Muu (The 2nd Tschuikage) at the cost of his own life, so read the thread before claiming Tobirama is the best ever.




Why the Second Mizukage is stronger than the Second Hokage?
The main way the Second Mizukage can combine all of these things into an overall advantage is through these things:

1) Absorbing all of the Second Hokage's Very High Magnitude Water Techniques
The Second Mizukage can absorb all of the Second Hokage's water ninjutsu to become progressively stronger and larger in direct proportion into the amount of water he absorbs. Also because of the high magntiude nature of the Second Hokage's techniques he'll be at a very big disadvantage the larger the Jutsu he uses on the Second Mizukage. This is much like a Kisame and chakra relationship only its specific to a type of element.

2) Immune to the Second Hokage's High Prowess Taijutsu
This is a obvious point which basically means the Second Hokage's very high taijutsu skills become useless in the face of the Second Mizukage because of the intangible nature of water meaning he can not be hit by the Second Hokage with either his ninjutsu or taijutsu.

3) Pseudo combination of Minato and Tobi's Space Time Ninjutsu
The Second Mizukage can be like i said earlier anywhere and everywhere all at once if he leads or makes the battle go in the direction of a nearby water source, combined with his intangibility when in liquid state it becomes a form of S/T Ninjutsu which encompasses both Minato's Speed (much faster as it is instanteous, less than 0 seconds in length) and Tobi's intangibility (inability to be harmed in liquid state apart from certain ninjutsu).

4) Oil Based Techniques and the Thunder sword was a filler
The thunder sword wasn't in the manga and was just a filler episode to make a story whch wasn't really there. Also the main point is highlighted by Gyatasuku that the 2nd Mizukage's oil based techniques is a natural insulator so this would allow the Mizukage to counter act the Second Hokage's filler Thunder sword even if it is used as a argument on why Tobirama would win.

The Second Mizukage's Elemental Advantage with Hozuki Nature Transformation

Spoiler

Strengthened by Water techniques as they increase the overall volume of the user of the technique.

Immunity to Wind Techniques as they only work if of a massive magnitude against a increased volume Hozuki user.

Immunity to Earth Techniques as they are solid and usually require the user to hit the opponent directly. Earth traps will also fail as the user can simply seep out of the technique.

Immunity to most fire techniques as the Water > Fire nature of things, but there are exceptions for certain fire techniques and fire release users.

Weakness against very strong fire techniques as the intensity means the user evaporates the user or simply overwhelms the water based technique.

Severe Weakness against lightning as the whole user becomes a liquid (impure water) means that the Di-Charged nature of water (containing both positive and negative minerals) means that it conducts electricity so dangerous and efficiently means the user is electrocuted over and over as they are a complete circuit.

If you check the above spoiler tag you will see the Tobirama's main and only chakra nature (the one he specializes in) will backfire in direct proportion to how strong his water technique is, in the relationship the higher the magnitude of the water technique, the greater the disadvantage Tobirama puts himself in.

The Second Mizukage's oil-based clone technique can act as a constant distraction and disadvanatage to Tobirama as not only will he have to fight the Second Mizukage but constantly avoid the clone to prevent himself being caught in the destructive blast. Also the infinite nature of the the technique (reversible reaction which acts independently) means that it would act as a constant obstacle to the Second Hokage through the fight. Theoretically it could be seen as a 2 vs 1 advantage.

Alternative Argument on why the Second Hokage could win



Other Points to consider:

Spoiler

This thread hasn't even considered the dangerous effects of the Second Mizukage's ultimate Mirage Genjutsu which he could use in conjunction with the clone technique to attack and defend without lifting a finger (once the preparations are set). Also the explosion won't harm the clam because the genjutsu casts a fake version of both the Second Mizukage and the Clam which are hard to tell from the original.

The Second Hokage cannot use Taijutsu in the battle because of how useless it becomes in the face of the Second Mizukage in liquid form and he cannot use water ninjutsu (his main offensive) which strengthens the mizukage. Also his S/T ninjutsu is countered by the ability of attaining a combination of Minato's and Tobi's S/T Jutsus combined in a water filled area.

Finally, this thread has shown simply with his Nature Transformation the Second Mizukage has created a ultimate defense against the Hokage's Main offensive methods, a greater version of S/T Ninjutsu than both Minato and Tobi when fighting in or near a water source.

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What do you guys think who would win, the Second Hokage or the Second Mizukage?

Also i need someone to make a Bio for the Second Hokage to add to this thread, please notify me if you will

Proof that the Third Kazekage > The Third Raikage -

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+rep... first.....:ice:

very very good post. detailing every possible inch of info available on mizukage.....

this info can make someone wonder , the destruction he could have caused if he didn't cooperate and get sealed , all he was doing was testing the power of gaara , if he wanted the mizukage would have made a short work of gaara and other ( oonki ... ) shinobi all by himself...
well... a story for some other time..

coming back to the main fight.....

2nd hokage :

he knew s/t and edo tensei...

so we can easily say that he was a sealing based ninja like minato , like minato doesn't have too many hell raising techniques but he makes good use of whatever he has based on timing , intellect , skill.

similarly i think ... think is the case with the 2nd hokage ( he was the hokage for a reason )

moreover being a senju clan member he was able to master all three forms of battle namely gen , nin and taijutsu very well... , well enough that he was made the hokage...

please take into account that in the anime or manga ( i don't remember ) tobimara is shown to use the bringer of darkness genjutsu....

he along with hashimara also trained hiruzen to be so strong that he could be entrusted with the title of the hokage at such a young age ...... who went on to be called "shinobi no kami'....

The above point doesn't directly tell about tobimara's strength... but it gives an idea..... like anyone can easily tell that the teacher of nagato , minato and naruto would be no ordinary man........

the s/t can be used in so many different ways ( ways shown by minato )
and the clam genjutsu in my opinion shouldn't be a problem for a kage level shinobi specially for a senju clan member who are known to master all three forms of combat.that would be broken easily....

The reason muu and mizukage both died can be stipulated as follows :
"The mizukage goes into the balloon bomb state and muu flies away but that helps mizukage to catch some breath.... but muu seeing no other option ( and knowing that dust release has been passed to oonki ) decided to blow up the battlefield with a jinton ( suicide bombing ) so as to weaken the mist....
as it is known that after the 2nd mizukage , the third mizukage was controlled by madara , ( who went on to become the 4th one ) and with mei being the 5th.... so muu's gable actually paid off , the mist became unstable without a leader and ninjas like kisame went loose and while the stone village enjoyed a single kage (oonki) all this time"

The above is my thought.... just a thought on how they both might have died killing each other.....
both are virtually invincible so they wouldn't die any ordinary way xd.

coming back to the fight ..... the hokage breaks the clam genjutsu and teleports the clam or any other summon to some where else... and its now down to head on fighting ..... the hokage in my opinion isn't that bad to use water against a sponge bob.... so he'll prefer raiton , katon , or earth element's use..... both the kage are very durable as the hokage took on the kin gin bros solo ( though to be killed U_U ) and mizukage took on muu , and later on so many joint army shinobi ....

so it boils down to the last attack that the mizukage has... the running steam bomb thing.....

the other factor which is a total random card is the edo tensei.... which according to me was tobimara's last resort as madara showed in this last chapter that this jutsu shouldn't be used carelessly as oro and kabuto used it..... and even after that , tobimara's control over the edo was considered to be weak in comparison to oro and kabuto , so unless he's summoning his big bro hashi m giving this to mizukage.... edo tensei is shown to make kabuto one of the most powerful people alive. and if tobimara could use it that well i don't think he would have been killed by kin gin bros atleast.....

in the end... after all speculation...

i believe unless hokage shows some extra ordinary intelligence ....... to win
mizukage would win or either he'll atleast blow hokage up with him if the hokage tries to retreat.....

 

[SilverSlick]

hes been shown he can waterise his body to free himself from gaaras sand prison.

like?

muu had that and he died

how do you know

no it wasnt

so does mizukage

filler

implying that a cartoon is somehow less real than a comic book considering they are both fiction and both "dont exist"

no he isnt and personal opinion with no proof doesnt apply

proof please

filler

no they werent. they were said to be impressive because he made alot of water on a roof in the middle of the village rather than needing a nearby lake.

no actually kisame is

Tobirama has the bringer of darkness technique from what I can remember. And you don't need proof for the Edo Tensei. Since he has Edo Tensei, we're going to assume he'll revive someone. Though I'm starting to believe he might not use it since it is forbidden and since he didn't master it. Its up to Negative Knight if he can have his sword or not. If he doesn't say anything about it, you can't really say Tobirama can or can't use it.

 

[DeViliShChild]

Tobirama has the bringer of darkness technique from what I can remember. And you don't need proof for the Edo Tensei. Since he has Edo Tensei, we're going to assume he'll revive someone. Though I'm starting to believe he might not use it since it is forbidden and since he didn't master it. Its up to Negative Knight if he can have his sword or not. If he doesn't say anything about it, you can't really say Tobirama can or can't use it.

Bringer of Darkness and thunder sword were both in the anime. Not in the manga, (which is all that counts in discussions)
In the manga the 1st hokage used the darkness technique not the 2nd.
As for sword, it was just a filler in anime. And as stated b4 anime doesnt count.
And i doubt the Second would use a technique he himself made forbidden

 

[DeViliShChild]

no they werent. they were said to be impressive because he made alot of water on a roof in the middle of the village rather than needing a nearby lake.

Only thing i disagree with you. You are not taking into account power scaling of Naruto to Shippuden. The first series was normal power then Shippuden became like DBZGT.

Tobirama's water was said to be very impressive by elite anbu (good credentials)

Yet Nobody on team Gai even flinched when Kisame clone made a massive amount of water against them.

 

[Ultimatevirus]

plausible..
but the main thing to consider is that we dont know much about tobirama...
its also arguable that 2nd mizukage might not have the same ability as that of suigetsus..
also tobiramas s/t jutsus were not weak, they were different(just as tobis s/t jutsu was diff from minatos)
otherwise i agree on this thread

 

[SilverSlick]

Bringer of Darkness and thunder sword were both in the anime. Not in the manga, (which is all that counts in discussions)
In the manga the 1st hokage used the darkness technique not the 2nd.
As for sword, it was just a filler in anime. And as stated b4 anime doesnt count.
And i doubt the Second would use a technique he himself made forbidden

Do you make the rules? Can you tell me what I can and can't bring into discussions? Its up to Negative Knight, as I stated before.

 

[Negative Knight]

I've said it before but i'll say it again: just because the 2nd mizukage is from the hozuki clan doesn't mean he can use the same jutsu as suigetsu. Assuming he can, then obviously the 2nd mizukage would beat tobirama because he would be such a horrible match-up. But this doesn't mean he is stronger than he is...this thread shouldn't have even been created in the first place. You could have given it a better title.

Its a unique trait of a clan which is given to every member of the clan

Uzumaki's -Karin, Nagato, Kushina all have red hair

Uchiha's (kind of a exception) - Itachi, Sasuke, Obito (as long as they awaken int)

The Mizukage seems to have a more advanced version of Suigetsu's as he can excrete a oil as well as turning into water.

Suigetsu has nothing extra, Kabuto and Oro didn't change anything about him they just extracted the gene which turns your body into liquid. Kabuto can do the same thing as Suigetsu as well.

 

[Tempest101]

I have to agree with some of the other guys...We trully don't know enough about Tobirama..we know quite abit about the 2nd Mizukage due to his fight against Gaara and a few other characters in the War going on but not enough about the extent of Tobirama's abilities...too little knowledge...

 

[xjimbox]

It would be a crazy fight but I go with the second

 

[Talha52]

1.wow this is a loong thread O.O
2. Good points.
But the 2nd Mizukage's strength lies mainly in water if seperated from that he would be in trouble.'cause in an area with no water both can create water from chakra. I've seen the 2nd Hokage produce a lot of water in his fight but I've never seen a fight of 2nd Mizukage,so my vote is with 2nd hokage.
rep for the details

 

[soulreaper11]

we do not know enough about tobimaru to say he is better other than edo.

 

[HamzaVeli]

the 2nd hokage was only shown for a brief while fightin against hiruzen as a edo - - - he is still bein speculated until this day - - - we still havent seen what he was capable of - - whereas - - we know what the 2nd mizukage is capable of

 

[GrimReaperoftheHiddenLeaf]

Okay, good thing I didn't have to do it xd

 

[ShishaMastah420]

You bring up some good points in this which i agree with, but Tobirama is a character that was praised in his ability to do other things besides battle;

He was known for evolutionising the ninja system by establishing organisations such as the Academy, ANBU, as well as the Konoha Military Police Force — a judicial system for the village which he had the Uchiha govern, as a sign of trust. He also believed greatly in the Will of Fire of the village, which he passed on to the next generation.

The points you presnet surely does make it seem as if Second Mizukage is >Second Hokage, but IMO, we can never be truly sure since we have yet to seen both in an Actual Full out Battle.

Edo Mizukage doesn't count as a Battle, IMO, since he told the enemy his weakness, and the fail shinobi still weren't able to do much...

 

[sageadvice]

Well, certainly Tobirama could just spam Edos, I suppose, but, other than that, we really don't know a whole lot about him. We do know that he took over for his brother, who allegedly beat Madara, a nd Madara's whooping the crap out of the people that sealed the 2nd Mizukage. So, if Tobirama's strength was anywhere near his brother's, which it supposedly was, then the simple math says that he'd take down the 2nd Mizukage, since he could go toe to toe with Madara. Now, one could argue that Edo madara is stronger than Madara ever was, and that Tobirama's jutsus aren't well-suited for fighting a Hozuki, but that's getting into the details. And details are what we don't have when it comes to Tobirama.

 

[Great Sage of Uchiha]

I Came into this thread believing that the 2nd Hokage would have an easy victory, but you have stated some very good points. I'm not going to be like everyone else and be like " There isn't enough information on Tobirama"; now granted kishi doesn't go into full-blown detail like most characters. We know enough to know he is basically at the same level as his brother and can hold his own against the Second Mizukage, you have some very strong points which is why i have came to this conclusion that this match is basically a draw. I can't honestly say Tobirama would lose over the Second Mizukage or that the Second Mizukage would pown Tobirama (simply because Tobirama might have more powers then what we know at the moment), but the Second Mizukage would differently be his eternal rival.

 

[Negative Knight]

I Came into this thread believing that the 2nd Hokage would have an easy victory, but you have stated some very good points. I'm not going to be like everyone else and be like " There isn't enough information on Tobirama"; now granted kishi doesn't go into full-blown detail like most characters. We know enough to know he is basically at the same level as his brother and can hold his own against the Second Mizukage, you have some very strong points which is why i have came to this conclusion that this match is basically a draw. I can't honestly say Tobirama would lose over the Second Mizukage or that the Second Mizukage would pown Tobirama (simply because Tobirama might have more powers then what we know at the moment), but the Second Mizukage would differently be his eternal rival.

+rep for this great post

Thanks for the constructive reply and noting that so many of the replies to this thread weren't satisfying.

A draw is very in the question as a similar thing happened with Muu and the Second Mizukage.

But i definitely think the Hozuki transformation technique would be a difficult thing for the Second Hokage to counter as he would be unable to use his water ninjutsu (one of his greatest feat and his main hype) as it would only strengthen the Second Mizukage.