Proof that Second Mizukage > Second Hokage (Actual Explanation Inside)

[Negative Knight]

hey i just read on naruto wiki, they don't transform into water in hydrificatio n technique,
i said earlier also, i didn't knew much about 2nd mizukage, so i read naruto wiki and then i realised , that teleport thingy is not possible, because he don't transform into water, but a different liquid.

also it is impossible to resolidify for him if his liquid molecules get scattered..

Spoiler

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EDIT :

And to reply on quote,

In Tobirama's time, it was all about senju vs uchiha and he had fought many uchiha battle ,with his bro hashi.
we all know that.
And we also know uchiha's are well known for their genjutsu , so tobirama must have a counter for the genjutsus, or he wouldn't have survived any uchiha battle.

And 2nd mizukage haven't shown any sensory abilities (as far as my knowledge)
so water clones can fool him.

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Read it all, then comment

 

[Frikid]

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Read it all, then comment

i read it all,

I counter your stuff with pics and write the whole argument and i expect the same in return U_U.

i know what is hydrification tech, you just misguided me by saying it turns into water
and i think we should rely more on manga and not on wiki which can be editted by anyone.

 

[FlyingThunderGodHax]

Good arguments , great efforts. This is the most detailed thread regarding the the 2nd Mizukage, but the lack of info on Tobirama is what makes this battle baseless. As of now 2nd Mizukage > Tobirama untill we get suffiecent info. + rep good work

 

[ojomoh emeka]

dont forget that tobirama is also good at genjutsu

 

[blackstar9]

once again great thread + rep!

This is a hard one to pick.According to narutowiki 2nd mizukage can use the water transformation. However not knowing the extent of 2nd hokage space time jutsu makes it even harder to pick. Plus we are not sure if Tobirama would use his edo tensai,or if he did who he would summon ? I love the detail in this thread. And the fact you listed ways they both could win.We know 2nd mizukage was able to kill a kekkai touta user Muu who is very powerful .And we know 2nd hokage was able to battle many uchiha and survive to tell the tale . Plus 2nd hokage is a senju . Im leaning toward 2nd mizukage . But tobiramas space time tech could be an important weapon in the match up. Hate to be wishy washy but i cant say for sure . anyway i enjoyed reading the thread!

 

[Omnislash X SageMode]

The thunder god sword was a filler episode!!!!! its not actually in the manga which means its technically doesnt exist...its a filler....not manga...not gonna work in this argument....anyone else that pulls that comment out their ass... is now just a little bit dumber than they used to be...:flaw::sy:

 

[eyesofthekyuubi44]

To be fair we really don't know Tobirama, but you have fair points.

I wouldn't say that Tobirama is weaker, just a bad match up for the 2nd Mizukage.

 

[Gyakusetsu]

Very well thought out. One additional point to make the Mizukage's oil could also be potentially used as an insulator to offset weakness to electricity. Kishimoto was doing his homework when decided to add that into the Mizukage's repetoire. Mineral oil is used in certain transformers because it insulates, while allowing heat to pass through and thereby cools down the core. So, Tobirama's thunder sword may not be an effective weapon. I think sheer power he wins this.

Still, Space/Time and Edo Tensei even unperfected, lots of unknowns there. I think at a minimum Tobirama gets away to reformulate strategy. Enjoyed reading it and it reminded me of why some folks haven't ruled Tobirama off the list as a possible Tobi (although I have, lol), at least I won't be as prone to skoff

 

[al3xsmith13]

what about that lightning blade tobirama had? that would destroy the hozuki clan kekkai genkai

 

[Negative Knight]

Very well thought out. One additional point to make the Mizukage's oil could also be potentially used as an insulator to offset weakness to electricity. Kishimoto was doing his homework when decided to add that into the Mizukage's repetoire. Mineral oil is used in certain transformers because it insulates, while allowing heat to pass through and thereby cools down the core. So, Tobirama's thunder sword may not be an effective weapon. I think sheer power he wins this.

Still, Space/Time and Edo Tensei even unperfected, lots of unknowns there. I think at a minimum Tobirama gets away to reformulate strategy. Enjoyed reading it and it reminded me of why some folks haven't ruled Tobirama off the list as a possible Tobi (although I have, lol), at least I won't be as prone to skoff

Kishi isn't the only person who's done his homework lol

Awesome Research man and you've just strengthened my argument further

Plus the Thunder sword episode was filler so it doesn't count either Lol

+Rep for the scientific knowledge i can add to my thread and the research and clear effort you've went to.

 

[rakwan uzamaki]

nahhh Hokage wins

 

[Flame Alchemist]

in my opinion tobirama was the most powerful kage of his time. and by the things we heard about him I'd even say that after hashirama (and maybe hiruzen) tobirama is the strongest kage.
S/T technique which is at least on par with minato's
water techniques mastery at least on kisame's level
being the creator of ET he must be well-versed in fuinjutsu as well.

and to top it off he was standing alongside hashirama in a time of endless wars. He had a hell lot of experince in fighting.
another thing is that MS izuna and MS madara was said to be equals. madara's rival was hashirama so the only person capable of standing against izuna would be tobirama. that would be saying that tobirama is on MS madara's level. and that's pretty high.

in short, I would rate tobirama either the second strongest kage after hashirama, or third strongest kage after hashirama and hiruzen.

 

[NaruGoku]

alright man, check it out. i will agree that Mizukage could beat the Hokage, but i do not agree that Mizukage > Hokage.
*First i'd like to point out that Yin release is simply a different way of saying Genjutsu-user, so the whole "something from nothing/imagination" stuff is Genjutsu, it doesn't actually create something from nothing or anything like that, that's Izanagi-type shit.
*One of your biggest points is that Mizukage can absorb Water-based ninjutsu. Im sorry dude but i scoured the manga, went on narutowiki, searched databooks and nowhere did i see evidence he could actually absorb water attacks. so that one is out. But, lets just say for fun that he could do it. It wouldn't matter. Hokage can control his own water, so if Mizukage absorbed it, what would he do with it? get bigger? and even if so, there'd be a limit cuz otherwise his body would explode and he'd lose the water anyway.

*He can, however, merge with water--as in surrounding water, water that is available to him--as Suigetsu did against Killer Bee, the Giant Fish jutsu or whatever. That would make no difference either because of Hokage's ability to control water. If he surrounded himself with a huge mass of water, Hokage could use that water himself to attack.

*Mizukage can also liquify, but against Hokage that really is useless as well. Hokage controls water--he was not called the best water user of his time, he is called one of the greatest water users in all of history, which is a big difference--so if the Mizukage actually turned himself into water, he'd be screwed, completely at the Hokage's mercy. If he was water, Hokage could literally dismantle him, probably put him in a water bottle and end the fight, lol.

*Also, one small point, he doesn't have an instant transportation technique within the water. I can see where you're coming from on that point, but there's a difference between going into the water and coming up in a different spot and instantly teleporting. He cannot move quicker than FTG in the water, he just can't...

*IF they fought near a source of water, this fight could NOT be won based on Water Techniques. Even though i think Hokage's water techs are physically more powerful, Mizukage's Hozuki-type techs have unique enough properties that extra power wouldn't make a difference. On the other hand, Mizukage's water techs are physically way too weak to hurt Hokage except the finger-water-gun, cuz that can blast right through whoever it hits--but it would have to hit first. In the case of these two fighters, having a source of water nearby would give them an advantage only against someone else, not against each other. The fight would be won with different abilities. The Clam Genjutsu is indeed formidable and i could see Hokage having a hard time with that except he can use his finger on the ground to locate the real Clam and Mizukage, so i guess he actually wouldn't have that hard of a time. Also, if Hokage uses Edo Tensei... Mizukage would be completely screwed. Also, i don't see Joki boy as much of a threat... It's not very strong, just really fast and annoying and seeing as how it's mostly water, Hokage could probably stop it. Plus S/T techs are generally OP, so even though we don't know the extent of Hokage S/T use, I see Hokage winning 7 or 8 out of 10 times.

*But finally, if they were NOT near any water, there's not much to say. Hokage was so strong that he could use unimaginably powerful water techs with no water around. In this case, Hogake has the benefit of being able to use water as well as the rest of his arsenal. Mizukage would be screwed because all he has left is the Clam, which Hokage could locate with his finger. in these conditions, Hokage wins 10/10 times.
PLUS, with or without water, we don't know the extent of Hokage's S/T techs. So, with S/T Jutsu factored in, there's probably no way for the Mizukage to win at all....

So, while shit happens and there are always surprises and we don't know the full arsenal of either fighter--especially about Hokage's S/T jutsu--it is possible for either one to win. However, from what i've seen, read, and researched, I'd give it mostly to the Hokage

 

[Negative Knight]

in my opinion tobirama was the most powerful kage of his time. and by the things we heard about him I'd even say that after hashirama (and maybe hiruzen) tobirama is the strongest kage.
S/T technique which is at least on par with minato's
water techniques mastery at least on kisame's level
being the creator of ET he must be well-versed in fuinjutsu as well.

and to top it off he was standing alongside hashirama in a time of endless wars. He had a hell lot of experince in fighting.
another thing is that MS izuna and MS madara was said to be equals. madara's rival was hashirama so the only person capable of standing against izuna would be tobirama. that would be saying that tobirama is on MS madara's level. and that's pretty high.

in short, I would rate tobirama either the second strongest kage after hashirama, or third strongest kage after hashirama and hiruzen.

I've never denied Tobirama's monster strength but A > B > C logic doesn't always work.

This is just a bad match up for Tobirama

alright man, check it out. i will agree that Mizukage could beat the Hokage, but i do not agree that Mizukage > Hokage.
*First i'd like to point out that Yin release is simply a different way of saying Genjutsu-user, so the whole "something from nothing/imagination" stuff is Genjutsu, it doesn't actually create something from nothing or anything like that, that's Izanagi-type shit.
*One of your biggest points is that Mizukage can absorb Water-based ninjutsu. Im sorry dude but i scoured the manga, went on narutowiki, searched databooks and nowhere did i see evidence he could actually absorb water attacks. so that one is out. But, lets just say for fun that he could do it. It wouldn't matter. Hokage can control his own water, so if Mizukage absorbed it, what would he do with it? get bigger? and even if so, there'd be a limit cuz otherwise his body would explode and he'd lose the water anyway.

*He can, however, merge with water--as in surrounding water, water that is available to him--as Suigetsu did against Killer Bee, the Giant Fish jutsu or whatever. That would make no difference either because of Hokage's ability to control water. If he surrounded himself with a huge mass of water, Hokage could use that water himself to attack.

*Mizukage can also liquify, but against Hokage that really is useless as well. Hokage controls water--he was not called the best water user of his time, he is called one of the greatest water users in all of history, which is a big difference--so if the Mizukage actually turned himself into water, he'd be screwed, completely at the Hokage's mercy. If he was water, Hokage could literally dismantle him, probably put him in a water bottle and end the fight, lol.

*Also, one small point, he doesn't have an instant transportation technique within the water. I can see where you're coming from on that point, but there's a difference between going into the water and coming up in a different spot and instantly teleporting. He cannot move quicker than FTG in the water, he just can't...

*IF they fought near a source of water, this fight could NOT be won based on Water Techniques. Even though i think Hokage's water techs are physically more powerful, Mizukage's Hozuki-type techs have unique enough properties that extra power wouldn't make a difference.

Spoiler

On the other hand, Mizukage's water techs are physically way too weak to hurt Hokage except the finger-water-gun, cuz that can blast right through whoever it hits--but it would have to hit first. In the case of these two fighters, having a source of water nearby would give them an advantage only against someone else, not against each other. The fight would be won with different abilities. The Clam Genjutsu is indeed formidable and i could see Hokage having a hard time with that except he can use his finger on the ground to locate the real Clam and Mizukage, so i guess he actually wouldn't have that hard of a time. Also, if Hokage uses Edo Tensei... Mizukage would be completely screwed. Also, i don't see Joki boy as much of a threat... It's not very strong, just really fast and annoying and seeing as how it's mostly water, Hokage could probably stop it. Plus S/T techs are generally OP, so even though we don't know the extent of Hokage S/T use, I see Hokage winning 7 or 8 out of 10 times.

*But finally, if they were NOT near any water, there's not much to say. Hokage was so strong that he could use unimaginably powerful water techs with no water around. In this case, Hogake has the benefit of being able to use water as well as the rest of his arsenal. Mizukage would be screwed because all he has left is the Clam, which Hokage could locate with his finger. in these conditions, Hokage wins 10/10 times.
PLUS, with or without water, we don't know the extent of Hokage's S/T techs. So, with S/T Jutsu factored in, there's probably no way for the Mizukage to win at all....

So, while shit happens and there are always surprises and we don't know the full arsenal of either fighter--especially about Hokage's S/T jutsu--it is possible for either one to win. However, from what i've seen, read, and researched, I'd give it mostly to the Hokage


(ps when u shall call, i shall arrive. lol)

When the water technique comes out of Tobirama it becomes a water source itself and as shown by Suigetsu he can merge with it, which is basically absorbing it.

The Second Mizukage was pretty intelligent and would know the 2nd Hokage is a water element user and so would probably only turn into water above a water source to avoid being controlled.


Also The Second Hokage controlling the Second Mizukage's massive water body would be difficult as the Mizukage can resolidify instantly.

I understand your point about FTG and so yeah i agree that it is faster but this technique is very similar when used above a water source.

Also the Second Hokage's finger technique can be off set by the Mizukage merging with a relatively big body of water.

Finally, do not underestimate the exploding clone as it is a infinite jutsu with destructive capacties, and the Second Hokage would be slightly distracted the entire fight which could be a key factor.

Anyway i have to go to bed, i will whoop u in a argument tomorrow

 

[Wolfang714]

And how many times have we seen Tobirama fight??? -_- Second Mizu is badass i'll give you that. +rep for the good effort, probably took hours. But we have like never seen Tobirama fight like we have Gai or Kakashi, or even Bee.

 

[NaruGoku]

I've never denied Tobirama's monster strength but A > B > C logic doesn't always work.

This is just a bad match up for Tobirama





When the water technique comes out of Tobirama it becomes a water source itself and as shown by Suigetsu he can merge with it, which is basically absorbing it.

The Second Mizukage was pretty intelligent and would know the 2nd Hokage is a water element user and so would probably only turn into water above a water source to avoid being controlled.


Also The Second Hokage controlling the Second Mizukage's massive water body would be difficult as the Mizukage can resolidify instantly.

I understand your point about FTG and so yeah i agree that it is faster but this technique is very similar when used above a water source.

Also the Second Hokage's finger technique can be off set by the Mizukage merging with a relatively big body of water.

Finally, do not underestimate the exploding clone as it is a infinite jutsu with destructive capacties, and the Second Hokage would be slightly distracted the entire fight which could be a key factor.

Anyway i have to go to bed, i will whoop u in a argument tomorrow

I think you're overestimating the value of "absorbing" water... and i also don't think water would make a difference with the genjutsu. the whole point of the Clam is to hide the real clam and real mizukage, but the Hokage would be able to sense the real ones. if anything, water would only help with that. and Joki boy isn't very powerful and plus Mizukage can't fight while it's out--he has to hide because his real body is very weak while its out. and water or not, Mizukage has no counter to Edo Tensei at all, and we don't know the extent of Hokages Space/Time jutsu but Edo Tensei + S/T could pretty much beat anyone.
again, the first thing i said was that i agree Mizukage could win, i just think Hokage would win more often.

 

[Omnislash X SageMode]

The thunder god sword was a filler episode!!!!! its not actually in the manga which means its technically doesnt exist...its a filler....not manga...not gonna work in this argument....anyone else that pulls that comment out their ass... is now just a little bit dumber than they used to be...:flaw::sy:

LOL PPL still using the excuse soo....lets expand the font size this time...hopefully u can see it before its too late....

The thunder god sword was a filler episode!!!!!its not actually in the manga which means its technically doesnt exist...its a filler....not manga...not gonna work in this argument....anyone else that pulls that comment out their ass... is now just a little bit dumber than they used to be...
Please Read the whole thread!!!

 

[NaruGoku]

And how many times have we seen Tobirama fight??? -_- Second Mizu is badass i'll give you that. +rep for the good effort, probably took hours. But we have like never seen Tobirama fight like we have Gai or Kakashi, or even Bee.

Lol, we've seen Tobirama fight one time. We've also only seen Mizukage fight one time. so, from watching those fights and doing research via the manga, naruto wiki, databooks etc we can infer what may happen in fight between the two. So, while none of us can say what would happen and who would win, we can make arguments/debates as to how one side could possibly defeat the other. In this case, i believe good arguments could be made for both sides!

 

[Q of the Sharingan]

I agree that the Mizukage would beat the Hokage. Unless the Hokage can somehow control the Mizukage because he is made of water (which is highly unlikely but would be hilarious).

There are a few things I disagree on. I don't think that the Mizukage or Suigetsu can create extra human like limbs or can teleport in water. I think that they can move fast but it definitely won't nearly as fast as FTG.

This is a horribly bad match up for the 2nd Hokage. From the little info we have on him, he has a very low chance of pulling out a win. 2nd Mizukage takes this.

 

[Prime Rib]

there all strong shinobi, but its all a matter of opinion i guess, but i would say the 2nd hokage tobirama takes it. why cause the 2nd was hailed as the strongest shinobi in his era