edo tensai wilmaso
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if its izuna im buying everyone a round. but if it its not ...everyone has to buy me a drink.lmao
[Theory] Tobi: Thread for all Tobi theories and related discussions .
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Gyakusetsu
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If Izuna, why would I allow Kabuto access to my dear beloved brother Madara as an Edo? Why display three Tomoe Sharingan and Rinnegan when older brother had access to MS techs while using Rinnegan? Why does older brother think I am dead if he revived me? Why didn't I join the Uchiha coup-de-tat, having been proved right after three generations? The clan would have hailed me as their leader having predicted what happened.
-We don't know from where Kabuto/Oro got Madara\s DNA ... maybe his corpse was hidden in the shrine and no one had an idea
-Because Madara pulled Izuna's eyes out, the current ordinary Sharingan eyes are likely a transplant
-Madara said that Izuna has died, not that he is dead
-Because Uchiha clan has betrayed Madara and forced him to sign a peace truce with Senju to form Konoha, thus making Izuna's sacrifice of eyes and his life as pointless ... Izuna has sacrificed for the whole Uchiha Clan yet they didn't give a ****
1 because no matter what if tobi was to rebel against kabuto ... kabuto could have used madara to beat him .. because kabuto was in control ... tobi had no choice and he knows that his brother was more powerfull then him in every way
2 i dont get your point
3 he said that izuna died .... but we know that madara could have revive him via rinne tensei ... he got rinnegan before his death
4 Because he hates both uchiha because they turn on madara he said in the new chapter that he hates both konoha and uchiha ...
Gyakusetsu
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-But Kabuto showed Tobi Madara's Edo form before the War. Tobi could have demanded the return of all genetic material or at the very least that the Jutsu "spell" be adjusted like Kabuto was going to do to Itachi.
He got both of his own eyes back from Nagato, correct?
Come on, that's stretching don't you think? He wouldn't refer to him in past tense if he revived him.
So your saying he did a complete 180 turn? Before it was all about the clan, now I want to wipe them out. Wow, even Itachi stuck to his guns to protect the Leaf. Izuna must be a punk then. Hardly a "good boy".
-If he demanded as such, Kabuto would have used Madara against Tobi
-Yes
-They were talking about what a death of a person has given them, Madara said that "Izuna has died" and he inherited his eyes and hate
-If you were him, would have you done something else ?
Imagine you are Izuna and you give your eyes to Madara for the whole Uchiha Clan so they can fight Senju. You even die in a battle against Senju, but they don't give a **** about you or Madara, and demand Madara to sign a truce ... if you were revived then, all you would see are Uchiha as Senju's dogs.
Of course you would want them dead
sageadvice
Member
everyone discounts setsuna for age, but he was basically a peer of sarutobi, so, add some more wrinkles under the eye, and it's him.
He has no backstory and no reason to hate Uchiha, only Senju ... also isn't noted to be strong enough in comparison to Madara.
Tobi as Izuna fits better as Madara and Izuna were equal back in their younger days
My theory on Kagami being Tobi:
After Madara had been defeated by Hashi, Madara disappeared from Konoha. Now after this the first shinobi war began and Kagami joined Team Tobirama. At this time, Kagami was still with the rest of the uchiha clan. After the war, in some way, he got in contact with Madara. I believe Kagami will be portrayed a bit like Sasuke with Kagami's relationship to Madara being similar to that of Sasuke and Tobi/Kagami.
Anyways, at the time after the first war they are together and Madara inspires Kagami as his mentor. For some reason, Kagami is drawn to Madara and his ideals which will probably be explained from his background. Zetsu is introduced somewhere here and becomes a friend to Kagami.
After this we're somewhere around the second war period and Nagato's part in Madara and Tobi's plans will be revealed. It's in this period Tobi matures and begins to think himself as an equal to Madara. Also at some time Madara will become third mizukage. And we know the fourth mizukage is Yagura controlled by Tobi. I think Madara dies somewhere before the era of the fourth mizukage and Tobi takes his place. Well, Yagura is technically the fourth but he is just there for Tobi to hide behind. Just like with akatsuki, Tobi is never the face of the leader, he is always the leader manipulator.
Any opinions?
After Madara had been defeated by Hashi, Madara disappeared from Konoha. Now after this the first shinobi war began and Kagami joined Team Tobirama. At this time, Kagami was still with the rest of the uchiha clan. After the war, in some way, he got in contact with Madara. I believe Kagami will be portrayed a bit like Sasuke with Kagami's relationship to Madara being similar to that of Sasuke and Tobi/Kagami.
Anyways, at the time after the first war they are together and Madara inspires Kagami as his mentor. For some reason, Kagami is drawn to Madara and his ideals which will probably be explained from his background. Zetsu is introduced somewhere here and becomes a friend to Kagami.
After this we're somewhere around the second war period and Nagato's part in Madara and Tobi's plans will be revealed. It's in this period Tobi matures and begins to think himself as an equal to Madara. Also at some time Madara will become third mizukage. And we know the fourth mizukage is Yagura controlled by Tobi. I think Madara dies somewhere before the era of the fourth mizukage and Tobi takes his place. Well, Yagura is technically the fourth but he is just there for Tobi to hide behind. Just like with akatsuki, Tobi is never the face of the leader, he is always the leader manipulator.
Any opinions?
Gyakusetsu
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1. Kabuto showed Tobi Edo Tensei out of fear of being killed by Tobi, not to mention Edo's left and right have been overcoming their summons, so no Tobi wasn't afraid of Kabuto just the opposite.1 because no matter what if tobi was to rebel against kabuto ... kabuto could have used madara to beat him .. because kabuto was in control ... tobi had no choice and he knows that his brother was more powerfull then him in every way
2 i dont get your point
3 he said that izuna died .... but we know that madara could have revive him via rinne tensei ... he got rinnegan before his death
4 Because he hates both uchiha because they turn on madara he said in the new chapter that he hates both konoha and uchiha ...
2. The point is that he has both of his original eyes back from Nagato. He took them to MS already and his brother took them to EMS and Rinnegan. His Brother had access to MS tech while using Rinnegan. Having a three tomoe Sharingan is redundant and unnecessary, unless like others believe an already awoken eye does not convey lower tech for the transplantee, like Nagato.
3. If he had he wouldn't refer to him in the past tense.
4. Gotcha, so he's a punk and even after the clan arrived at the same conclusion and would have hailed him as a hero and visionary he decided punk out.
OopsWrongHole
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That is brilliant, this is the strongest argument I have heard so far to prove who Tobi is, I too for a very long time have believed it was Izuna but after reading what you said it has made me feel even more strongly that Tobi is Izuna.READ ALL BEFORE YOU POST YOUR COMMENT !!!
Criteria For Tobi’s Identity
1) He is from the time of Hashirama Senju, and needs to be someone the Kyuubi would instantly recognize.
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He is instantly recognized by the Kyuubi, who as far as we know has been sealed away in an Uzumaki jinchuuriki ever since the battle at the Valley of the End, where Uzumaki Mito sealed it into herself. There are no reports of the Kyuubi having broken free aside from in Yondaime’s time. This means that Tobi is someone the Kyuubi met during the time of Hashirama.
Given the way in which he speaks of past events, he has first-hand knowledge of and was emotionally investment in the Uchiha/Senju conflict.
Izuna fits: Uchiha Izuna was from this time period, and for obvious reasons, was personally and emotionally invested in fighting the Senju.
2) He has to have a credible reason for being pissed off at the Uchiha’s making peace with the Senju, and needs to be personally, emotionally invested in Uchiha Izuna’s eyes being given to Uchiha Madara.
“What kind of monster would hurt his beloved younger brother?! All I ever wanted was to protect the Uchiha clan! […] My younger brother accepted his role and willingly gave his eyes to me….[Tobi clenches his arms in anger]. What happened to the hatred we had for them?! What did my brother sacrifice his eyes for?!”
Izuna fits: He has ample reason to be pissed off at the Uchiha, even more so than Uchiha Madara; he sacrificed his eyes and possibly his life to give Madara the EMS in order to protect the Uchiha in their fight against the Senju, only to have them go and make peace? Why did he sacrifice his eyes and his life for them, then?!
3) He has a credible reason for claiming that the eyes Nagato had “were [his] to begin with.”
Izuna fits: If we accept the likelihood that Nagato’s eyes used to be Uchiha Madara’s (who is the only person we know which awakened the Rinnegan), then we also accept that Nagato’s eyes originally belonged to Uchiha Izuna’s, as we know that Uchiha Madara’s EMS eyes originally belonged to Izuna. Izuna fits this perfectly; no one else has a better credible reason to claim Nagato’s eyes “were his to begin with” than Izuna.
4) He needs to be a person whom Uchiha Madara will trust with his own life and rebirth.
Madara trusted Tobi to bring him back to life with Nagato’s powers. This is a major deal. Who would whant to ressurect an arrogant bastard like Madara unless he was your brother .... only the love of a brother would accept Madara
If we accept Madara’s statement that he awakened the Rinnegan shortly before his death, then this also means that he had only a very short period of time to transplant the Rinnegan into child Nagato. This means that he was 100%, utterly dependent on Tobi to carry out the ‘plan’ he mentioned to Kabuto, which included his resurrection.
Madara also gave Tobi access to the Hashirama-related power which he had nearly died for; an incredible show of trust.
Izuna fits: He is Uchiha Madara’s younger brother, and brotherly ties are a major focal point of this manga. We know that Rinnei Tensei can bring the dead back to life, and we know that Uchiha Madara gained the Rinnegan before dying. It would make sense if he used the Rinnegan to bring back Izuna.
Counter-Argument: Nagato wasn’t able to bring back Jiraiya because he had died too long ago! How could Madara bring back Izuna, who had died even longer ago!
Response: Uchiha Madara planned to use Nagato to bring himself back to life. If we accept that Madara died while Nagato was a child (which is necessary, as Nagato was given the Rinnegan as a child), and that Nagato was expected to ‘grow’ into his power, then this shows Madara thought it was fully possible for Nagato to resurrect him, despite years having passed. Which indicates that it is also fully possible for Madara to resurrect Izuna, despite years having passed.
5) He needs to have a credible grudge against Konoha, and has to have waited a long time for his vengeance against Konoha.
Spoken to Kushina: “Do you have any idea how long I’ve waited for this moment?!”
Izuna fits: His reason for a grudge against Konoha are obvious and profound; he gave his eyes to fight against the Senju who controlled the village, then eventually expelled his brother out from it. If we accept that he died or was maimed back in Hashirama’s days, then he has been waiting a long, long time indeed for his vengeance.
6) Tobi needs to be an Uchiha.
Although not Madara, Tobi still needs to have an Uchiha’s body; he uses the sharingan with expertise not seen outside a native Uchiha, and does not appear to have any problems with his body not being suited for the sharingan.
Izuna fits: Self-explanatory.
7) Tobi has to have a credible reason for being at least partly made out of Zetsu goo, even as far back as the fight with Yondaime.
Izuna somewhat fits: Tobi claims that Uchiha Izuna died in battle after losing his eyes. Knowing that Rinnei Tensi is capable of bringing the dead back, and also knowing that Zetsu goo is based off of Hashirama’s DNA, it’s credible that for Madara to bring Izuna back, he had to use Zetsu goo for whatever reason. Admittedly, more data is required here.
8) He has an old, wrinkly face, despite being partially made out of Zetsu goo.
Izuna fits: If we accept that Izuna was brought back to life with the Rinnegan while Nagato was a child, then at least 30+ years have passed, as we know that Nagato (being Jiraiya’s first disciple) should be as old or older than Minato. If Izuna was brought back in a partially ‘real’ body which aged, and if he had died in his 20’s, then he would now be in his 50’s or 60’s, explaining the wrinkly face. This is also supported by the fact that he indicates if Itachi knew some of his secrets, the Amaterasu would have killed him, indicating that at least part of him was non-Zetsu goo and thus vulnerable to being killed.
Note: The biggest clue is that " Tobi is a good boy " meaning Izuna was a good brother to Madara but turn evil to get revenge for Madara.... i belive kishi is making a switch deja vu like Itachi and Sasuke .... Madara and Izuna
Brilliant, you put alot of thought into this.
However if it is Izuna then why hasn't the 9 tails actually told Naruto this?
Gyakusetsu
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- see my post to alexu9696
- What would I have done
You've seen Sanjuro, I take it? I would have revealed myself, been hailed as a hero and visionary, pushed them into battle with the leaf, not caring who won the outcome and cleaned up the remainder or at least have had much less to deal with. Tobi was after those valuable eyes, that was his true purpose in participating in the massacre. However, If I am Izuna and live for the clan I would see that the clan had come to it's senses. Would reveal myself and lead the charge for the clan against the Leaf.You guys are still assigning beliefs and points of view that Tobi said that Madara had, and assuming that Izuna would have identical beliefs. They aren't the same folks, not by a longshot.
The fact that Madara was revived in Edo he came out talking about Nagato (shouldn't he also be expecting Izuna) should be proof enough. He didn't come out looking for Izuna and isn't asking about him at all. Why? Because he knows he is dead.
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-The reason why Tobi isn't using MS techniques is the same as for Nagato. It's not possible to use other technique than Susanoo with Rinnegan activated, Nagato could not use it as a MS cause he got it as a transplant.- see my post to alexu9696
- What would I have done
Also Tobi's Space-time migration and Intangibility technique are likely his, Izuna's MS powers
-The only reason Uchiha "came to their senses" is because he himself has attacked Konoha with Kyubi and the Village blamed the Uchiha for the attack ... their annihilation was likely planned since Tobi/Izuna attacked the village, even before they had plans to oppress the village ... In other words, Uchiha just tried to protect themselves.
Tobi/Izuna simply wanted them dead, if that doesn't make sense to you then tell Kishi ... I also find his reason better than the one of yours
Tobi doesn't want to take over village, but to destroy it as a whole.
- Another point that supports Tobi being Izuna is that it took a while for Sasuke to accustom to Itachi's eyes, while Tobi could use Nagato's Rinnegan right away, supporting the thing that the eyes were really his - Izuna's
Gyakusetsu
Active member
So, Susanoo yes other MS techs no? Hmmm, not buying it. You have to have some basis other than belief to back this up. If you say Manga only shows Susanoo being used with Rinnegan then I will post a picture of Izuna's corpse and say I haven't seen this guy walking around either, and that get's us nowhere.
Irrelevant, the resentment had already been building. He could have capitalized on it anyway because the Uchiha were not there. They would not have known it was him, so he still could have trolled them or become their great hero. BUT, there is another important fact hidden here. Tobi told Sasuke that this was a random event. He does not want anyone to know that the event was tied to Naruto's birth. He doesn't care that Sasuke knows he participated in the massacre, or that he had a grudge against the Uchiha, or that he wanted to destroy the Leaf. He doesn't hide his desire to control the 9 tails. The only thing he tries to hide is that Naruto's birth is tied to the event.
Having my enemy attack my other enemy = smart. They use up more resources and there are less to deal with no matter which side wins. Read Sun Tzu. Do you think Danzo was altruist and massacred the Uchiha solely to protect the leaf? I seem to recall Tobi and Danzo both gathering some eyes as well. Waste not want not, I guess.Tobi/Izuna simply wanted them dead, if that doesn't make sense to you then tell Kishi ... I also find his reason better than the one of yours
Tobi doesn't want to take over village, but to destroy it as a whole.
Maybe he just has more exceptional recovery than an Uchiha.
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Izuna fits the best no other theory has this facts they only have fictional story ... My theory has a strong base ... You can find something missing in all theories but izuna theory fits the bestSo, Susanoo yes other MS techs no? Hmmm, not buying it. You have to have some basis other than belief to back this up. If you say Manga only shows Susanoo being used with Rinnegan then I will post a picture of Izuna's corpse and say I haven't seen this guy walking around either, and that get's us nowhere.
Irrelevant, the resentment had already been building. He could have capitalized on it anyway because the Uchiha were not there. They would not have known it was him, so he still could have trolled them or become their great hero. BUT, there is another important fact hidden here. Tobi told Sasuke that this was a random event. He does not want anyone to know that the event was tied to Naruto's birth. He doesn't care that Sasuke knows he participated in the massacre, or that he had a grudge against the Uchiha, or that he wanted to destroy the Leaf. He doesn't hide his desire to control the 9 tails. The only thing he tries to hide is that Naruto's birth is tied to the event.
Having my enemy attack my other enemy = smart. They use up more resources and there are less to deal with no matter which side wins. Read Sun Tzu. Do you think Danzo was altruist and massacred the Uchiha solely to protect the leaf? I seem to recall Tobi and Danzo both gathering some eyes as well. Waste not want not, I guess.
Maybe he just has more exceptional recovery than an Uchiha.
Maybe kurama tought that he is madara when tobi used the sharingan to control kurama and then realized that is not madara or maybe becaure of plot no jutsu he dosent tell naruto he could also tell him the truth about the atack against konoha 20 years ago.. but he dosent tell naruto about this
Danzou's sensei Tobirama, was known for using S\T you mean to tell me Danzou couldn't have learn S\T from him? Just because Danzou "dialogue" never hints that he controlIed Kurama means nothing. Danzou was Root's leader, the king of secrets damn near, why would he even bring jp what took place back then? Oh he never did.... that's right he took it to his grave. I talk more of Danzou ability to control Kurama in the other quote response below.
Shin did you seriously just post Susano'o is a technique only Itachi\Sasuke can use
.... Chief Susano'o is a MS technique, Madara had MS are you forgetting basic shit now? Itachi obtained MS from Shisui's death, Sasuke gained MS from Itachi's death, Madara obtained MS from Izuna's death. Don't be ignorant all of a sudden lolWhat Uchiha have you seen us Kamui? I'll wait.... All Uchiha don't possess the same special skills, Shisui was the only Uchiha that possessed KA, Obito was the only Uchiha that possessed Kamui learn your facts chief....
Ha you're pretty bold for that statement, all the theories of Tobi have holes;
How was Izuna able to get a sharingan to fight Minato? If I recall his eyes were taken by Madara then he died. If he was revived he would be brought back with no eyes. Even if he killed an Uchiha & took their eye how would he be able to control Kurama with just a regular sharingan? The only Uchiha sharingan I know off that was taken was Shisui's & Danzou & Itachi had 1 each.
According to you Madara gave Nagato his rinnegan before he died. Nagato wasn't even aware of Tobi until he was much older. I'm pretty sure he wasn't doing RT all wheely neely aroung that time. So when exactly was Izuna revived?
How does Izuna have Zetsu parts? Orochimaru kidnapped & killed Nawaki & gained Hashirama's DNA from him thus making Zetsu. Are you telling me Izuna went & asked Orochimaru to do surgery? I think not.
Danzou = Tigerstripe Mask
Danzou was the founder of Root, were he ruled with an iron fist, going so far as to make his members fight to the death. Orochimaru was in Root. It is fact that Orochimaru did surgery on Danzou giving him Hashirama's DNA.It is also fact that he possessed a sharingan. Are you still saying he didn't have the qualifications of being Tobi?
Danzou had the motives to do everything Tobi did back then. He possessed the traits needed to control Kurama. He played a major part in the Uchiha massacre. His stature fits Tobi. Tobi's injuries during the fight with Minato fit as well.
I'm quite sure you can find holes in my theory, & I can find holes in yours as well, the Izuna theory isn't the best theory chief....
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Shin Zangetsu
Member
Shin did you seriously just post Susano'o is a technique only Itachi\Sasuke can use
Uh dude that's exactly what I was explaining to you. You assumed Kamui and Tobi's S/T jutsu are related and I asked if you think Madara and Itachi/Sasuke Susano'o are related just because they all have it because I'm saying that Tobi's jutsu are and Uchiha thing not an Obito thing. You've just repeated what I said.
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