Hiruzen
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GUCC1GU1LTY
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Re: Hiruzen was being toyed with
This is very true
i love orochimaru, hes sooo funny especally wen taunting hiruzen
This is very true
i love orochimaru, hes sooo funny especally wen taunting hiruzen
GUCC1GU1LTY
Member
Re: Hiruzen was being toyed with
and hiruzen was called him a demon wen he found out that orochimaru has learned the imortality jutsu and has been using it, he was especally enraged then so what are you talkin about?
are you kidding me?! do you need to watch that episode again? do u know wat the monkey told hiruzen that u should of killed him years ago and the third knew that if hes destroyed the village then there is no hope in him of being alive at all
and hiruzen was called him a demon wen he found out that orochimaru has learned the imortality jutsu and has been using it, he was especally enraged then so what are you talkin about?
Kratos of cruxis
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Re: Hiruzen was being toyed with
He was toying with hiruzen BUT one on one hiruzen>oro and the fact he didnt want to harm his old sensei's or his former student at the beginng of the fight only means he could hace done better
He was toying with hiruzen BUT one on one hiruzen>oro and the fact he didnt want to harm his old sensei's or his former student at the beginng of the fight only means he could hace done better
ll BL4CKM00N ll
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Re: Hiruzen was being toyed with
Exactly he should have killed him years ago but he didn't y? Because he couldn't bring himself to kill oro, he was like a son to hizuren, killing oro would be the equivalent to killing Asuma when regarding hizuren. Even kakashi acknowledges the mental torture hizuren must have endured when fighting oro. Him calling oro a demon or gettin enraged has nothin to do with the fact that hizuren had no resolve to kill orochimaru. He was resolved in protecting konoha but that's all. When finally found the resolve to end oro reign of terror he tried doing it without living with oro blood on his hands.
Darth Wignus
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Re: Hiruzen was being toyed with
I'm sure there's a point to you pointing out the obvious. But I havent read it yet.
I'm sure there's a point to you pointing out the obvious. But I havent read it yet.
Reborn
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Re: Hiruzen was being toyed with
I kinda want to address something that was in the beginning of this thread before it circled into a Minato and Bee dominated one.
People keep insisting a prime Hiruzen is stronger then any of the other Hokage that has every been. The arguments I hear are "Databooks" and "Kishi's own words"
Now here's the thing with Kishi's word on what he says, especially when it takes place during the past events of the series before Shippuden. I'm almost positive on more then one account that Kishi has gone back on what he's said in the past concerning characters and their relationships and such etc...The Hiruzen prime>Hokage individual I believe is one of them.
I used to be the guy who said all Hokage were equal but I can't even turn a blinds eye to some of this stuff and wonder to myself, just how was Hiruzen greater then these other Hokage, at least the first two and contriversially, Minato (I love it how Minato's predecessor was his successor as well
)
People are holding onto what Kishi has said in the databook so literal and holding a reputation of somebody as solid fact, when now we have evidence of the power of the previous Hokage before him that suggest, that Hiruzen couldn't beat either of them. (1) because there's no proof of his abilities in his prime and (2) the reputation and demonstrated skill sets of the previous Hokage that have been seen far outweigh his previous reputation and skill set.
Quite recently we hear from Kabuto or Madara, one of those two that Hashirama was perhaps the strongest shinobi since the Sage of Six Paths (in natural terms, Edo Madara isn't in the factored equasion) then we see how strong Edo Tensai Madara's Wood Release is and how it makes the technique he used on Hiruzen look like a few twigs for firewood. I would have some concerns if people believed that Madara could summon more power with Wood then Hashirama could since Madara only has a piec of Hashi inside him. To the furthest people could say the extent of Madara's wood release abilities could go would be=Hashirama.
Hashirama even in part 1 was given such a hype of power with his ability to take control of all the Bijuu and then his abilities against Madara.
Then we have Madara himself with his raw prime with EMS. Having activated Susanoo he has the same Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu as any other Uchiha with Susanoo and now we're looking at the strongest Susanoo in the face, which, as far as we know has nothing to do with the Rinningan or Hashi's abilities so it's all him. The same as with Madara's excell in Fire techniques and his ability to clone himself and use Susanoo with his clones. Now the argument can be made that he only has those clones because of the unlimited chakra Edo grants him. However the Susanoo point still stands.
We have Hashirama to an extent weaker in the minds of many to Hiruzen and through extension Madara with EMS. All because of the author's word that hasn't been backed up but rather almost refuted with all the other evidence for other character's power levels.
Now for Tobirama, out of the blue he's the inventor of Edo Tensai although as an incompleted form. However everybody knows of Edo Tensai from the old days. Dan (Although probably under Hiruzen's term he was in Tsunade's era to know the extent of Tobi's abilities). With my understanding of the word perfection, you can't get better then perfection, meaning neither Orochimaru didn't perfect it rather improved and Kabuto either perfected or improved upon. You can't get better than perfection. We understand Tobirama had a watered down version so to speak but we hear the ressurected Edo summons that the spell they're under is stronger then that of the one used by Tobirama. I would find the pannle but I'd have to do that later since I have to leave soon. This would cause me to believe, yes Tobirama has used this technique on at least one occasion and to an extent where his reputation and the technique became a renown entity all in it's own.
Then from Minato we get the implication of Tobirama's Space Time abilities. Minato's comparison to his jutsu was to his own and that of Tobi's. Minato's only ranking of the power level of the space time techniques was that Tobi's>his and Tobirama's so we assume Tobirama is in the range of below (yet still notable) equal to, or potentially(long shot) greater then Minato's but still below Tobi's
That along with Tobirama's other demonstrated skills and his mastery of water beyond that of any other shinobi gives me reason enough to believe that Hiruzen's power didn't exceed either Hashirama or Tobirama.
_____________________
Now I remember hearing from my friend Owarji at one point (I may be mistaken on the person but I heard it somewhere) That the power levels and structures were different in the first part of the series from Shippuden. He went onto say if Hiruzen had been noted again to have fought his power level would be able to match either Hokage as well as it did in their fight as Edos in order to maintain the image.
My rebutal to that is, If Hiruzen was meant to be hailed as a stronger shinobi then the more influencial Hashirama, then why hasn't he been brought back up since his death? If not even to the comparison of Tobirama who's extent of relivance to the series is only the creation of Edo Tensai but we still hear of a strong source of power that puts him above the reputation of Hiruzen in his prime? Why havn't we seen or heard of more feats from Hiruzen's prime? Why, if he was relivant enough or even meant to be hailed as the strongest in his prime, have we not heard more to buff the strength on that claim by Kishi. We've been given other implications and other accounts quite recently of abilities of countless other Kage that are greater then Hiruzen all in their prime. Sandaime Raikage appeared as an enemy for a few chapters, hardly as relivant as Hiruzen other then as an enemy but we hear of amazing speed, durability, and the take down of a Bijuu.
Kishi has not, nor has he cared enough about the character of Hiruzen as the strongest character to buff the reputaion. I believe it would be note worthy if Hiruzen was stronger then Hashirama, especially after everything we've seen/heard up to this point.
God of Shinobi? How so, we're seeing how Kabuto is comparing Hashirama to the strongest shinobi since the sage, His wood abilities stabilized Madara's fight against the Five Kage for a moment and even rendered them with the budding flower thing.
I can understand the Professor, Hiruzen knew a lot of jutsu, had a lot of control. That alone I belive best fits Hiruzen's character and his reputaion, for his countless other abiliteis. However we've seen no feats from him or even from a second hand perspective (we see Hashi through Madara for a moment just in terms of raw power) to give us suggestions of Hiruzens superiority in his prime. We're given no implications other then a claim made long ago, which I feel is misrepresented and no longer holds to be true.
I believe Kishi's reasoning for what he did with Hiruzen's character was only to demonstrate the Hokage figure as the strongest figure of the five Kage for the time being as the Hokage of Konoha was the only relivant Kage. We saw no other Kage besides the Kazekage until the second part, with the exception of the Fourth Kazekage's corpse. However, even now we see that the Kage around in Hiruzen's generation (in the old age) trumped him with perhaps the exception of the Kazekage and maybe the Mizukage (Definately the 4th possibly 5th). Even Oonoki has shown an incredible mastery of Earth beyond that of Hiruzen and the abilities of the KT give him that edge.
I know I wrote a wall, probabably nobody's going to read it but I just wanted to get this out there. I don't believe Hiruzen is meant to be held as the strongest Hokage to ever come out of Konoha, nor do I think he was even in his prime because we've been given no implications to such and if it were relivant or meant to be, Kishi would re-enforce that idea. That's my opinion.
I kinda want to address something that was in the beginning of this thread before it circled into a Minato and Bee dominated one.
People keep insisting a prime Hiruzen is stronger then any of the other Hokage that has every been. The arguments I hear are "Databooks" and "Kishi's own words"
Now here's the thing with Kishi's word on what he says, especially when it takes place during the past events of the series before Shippuden. I'm almost positive on more then one account that Kishi has gone back on what he's said in the past concerning characters and their relationships and such etc...The Hiruzen prime>Hokage individual I believe is one of them.
I used to be the guy who said all Hokage were equal but I can't even turn a blinds eye to some of this stuff and wonder to myself, just how was Hiruzen greater then these other Hokage, at least the first two and contriversially, Minato (I love it how Minato's predecessor was his successor as well
)People are holding onto what Kishi has said in the databook so literal and holding a reputation of somebody as solid fact, when now we have evidence of the power of the previous Hokage before him that suggest, that Hiruzen couldn't beat either of them. (1) because there's no proof of his abilities in his prime and (2) the reputation and demonstrated skill sets of the previous Hokage that have been seen far outweigh his previous reputation and skill set.
Quite recently we hear from Kabuto or Madara, one of those two that Hashirama was perhaps the strongest shinobi since the Sage of Six Paths (in natural terms, Edo Madara isn't in the factored equasion) then we see how strong Edo Tensai Madara's Wood Release is and how it makes the technique he used on Hiruzen look like a few twigs for firewood. I would have some concerns if people believed that Madara could summon more power with Wood then Hashirama could since Madara only has a piec of Hashi inside him. To the furthest people could say the extent of Madara's wood release abilities could go would be=Hashirama.
Hashirama even in part 1 was given such a hype of power with his ability to take control of all the Bijuu and then his abilities against Madara.
Then we have Madara himself with his raw prime with EMS. Having activated Susanoo he has the same Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu as any other Uchiha with Susanoo and now we're looking at the strongest Susanoo in the face, which, as far as we know has nothing to do with the Rinningan or Hashi's abilities so it's all him. The same as with Madara's excell in Fire techniques and his ability to clone himself and use Susanoo with his clones. Now the argument can be made that he only has those clones because of the unlimited chakra Edo grants him. However the Susanoo point still stands.
We have Hashirama to an extent weaker in the minds of many to Hiruzen and through extension Madara with EMS. All because of the author's word that hasn't been backed up but rather almost refuted with all the other evidence for other character's power levels.
Now for Tobirama, out of the blue he's the inventor of Edo Tensai although as an incompleted form. However everybody knows of Edo Tensai from the old days. Dan (Although probably under Hiruzen's term he was in Tsunade's era to know the extent of Tobi's abilities). With my understanding of the word perfection, you can't get better then perfection, meaning neither Orochimaru didn't perfect it rather improved and Kabuto either perfected or improved upon. You can't get better than perfection. We understand Tobirama had a watered down version so to speak but we hear the ressurected Edo summons that the spell they're under is stronger then that of the one used by Tobirama. I would find the pannle but I'd have to do that later since I have to leave soon. This would cause me to believe, yes Tobirama has used this technique on at least one occasion and to an extent where his reputation and the technique became a renown entity all in it's own.
Then from Minato we get the implication of Tobirama's Space Time abilities. Minato's comparison to his jutsu was to his own and that of Tobi's. Minato's only ranking of the power level of the space time techniques was that Tobi's>his and Tobirama's so we assume Tobirama is in the range of below (yet still notable) equal to, or potentially(long shot) greater then Minato's but still below Tobi's
That along with Tobirama's other demonstrated skills and his mastery of water beyond that of any other shinobi gives me reason enough to believe that Hiruzen's power didn't exceed either Hashirama or Tobirama.
_____________________
Now I remember hearing from my friend Owarji at one point (I may be mistaken on the person but I heard it somewhere) That the power levels and structures were different in the first part of the series from Shippuden. He went onto say if Hiruzen had been noted again to have fought his power level would be able to match either Hokage as well as it did in their fight as Edos in order to maintain the image.
My rebutal to that is, If Hiruzen was meant to be hailed as a stronger shinobi then the more influencial Hashirama, then why hasn't he been brought back up since his death? If not even to the comparison of Tobirama who's extent of relivance to the series is only the creation of Edo Tensai but we still hear of a strong source of power that puts him above the reputation of Hiruzen in his prime? Why havn't we seen or heard of more feats from Hiruzen's prime? Why, if he was relivant enough or even meant to be hailed as the strongest in his prime, have we not heard more to buff the strength on that claim by Kishi. We've been given other implications and other accounts quite recently of abilities of countless other Kage that are greater then Hiruzen all in their prime. Sandaime Raikage appeared as an enemy for a few chapters, hardly as relivant as Hiruzen other then as an enemy but we hear of amazing speed, durability, and the take down of a Bijuu.
Kishi has not, nor has he cared enough about the character of Hiruzen as the strongest character to buff the reputaion. I believe it would be note worthy if Hiruzen was stronger then Hashirama, especially after everything we've seen/heard up to this point.
God of Shinobi? How so, we're seeing how Kabuto is comparing Hashirama to the strongest shinobi since the sage, His wood abilities stabilized Madara's fight against the Five Kage for a moment and even rendered them with the budding flower thing.
I can understand the Professor, Hiruzen knew a lot of jutsu, had a lot of control. That alone I belive best fits Hiruzen's character and his reputaion, for his countless other abiliteis. However we've seen no feats from him or even from a second hand perspective (we see Hashi through Madara for a moment just in terms of raw power) to give us suggestions of Hiruzens superiority in his prime. We're given no implications other then a claim made long ago, which I feel is misrepresented and no longer holds to be true.
I believe Kishi's reasoning for what he did with Hiruzen's character was only to demonstrate the Hokage figure as the strongest figure of the five Kage for the time being as the Hokage of Konoha was the only relivant Kage. We saw no other Kage besides the Kazekage until the second part, with the exception of the Fourth Kazekage's corpse. However, even now we see that the Kage around in Hiruzen's generation (in the old age) trumped him with perhaps the exception of the Kazekage and maybe the Mizukage (Definately the 4th possibly 5th). Even Oonoki has shown an incredible mastery of Earth beyond that of Hiruzen and the abilities of the KT give him that edge.
I know I wrote a wall, probabably nobody's going to read it but I just wanted to get this out there. I don't believe Hiruzen is meant to be held as the strongest Hokage to ever come out of Konoha, nor do I think he was even in his prime because we've been given no implications to such and if it were relivant or meant to be, Kishi would re-enforce that idea. That's my opinion.
zombiejesus
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Re: Hiruzen was being toyed with
3rd owned in the 1st 2nd fight took them both out and almost oro too so they were toying well thayt was a mistake a win is a win deal with it
3rd owned in the 1st 2nd fight took them both out and almost oro too so they were toying well thayt was a mistake a win is a win deal with it
Reborn
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Re: Hiruzen was being toyed with
However it wasn't them fighting it was Orochimaru controling them. Of all people, you believe the two people who taught him most of what he knows as a shinobi would take him lightly? That would be an insult to yourself as a teacher basically saying "I was a piece of shit teacher I don't need to work to kill him."
Hashi and Tobi were toying with the Hiruzen not by will so it's irrelivant either way.
They were owning him, he took the shot in the dark and got one up on them.
However it wasn't them fighting it was Orochimaru controling them. Of all people, you believe the two people who taught him most of what he knows as a shinobi would take him lightly? That would be an insult to yourself as a teacher basically saying "I was a piece of shit teacher I don't need to work to kill him."
Hashi and Tobi were toying with the Hiruzen not by will so it's irrelivant either way.
Re: Hiruzen was being toyed with
Wow, Reborn I don't think I've ever seen you in the Naruto Discussion section...ever. Its nice to see you out of the FF and RP section. More to the point, I actually read your wall of text and I disagree. Hiruzen may have seemingly lost all relevance but the words of everyone still stands. When we were hearing of Hashirama matching Uchiha Madara and the Nine Tails and also controlling multiple tailed beasts, all we had to go on was his and Tobirama's measly excuse for skill against Hiruzen. Obviously the levels of power has changed. Kakashi could previously perform only four Raikiri and now I don't think he counts anymore. Tobirama's water techniques being performed without a source impressive, now Yamato and Kakashi and a team of nameless water users have accomplished the same feat. In the face of the current level of power in the ninja world, you don't believe Hiruzen became Hokage because of a monkey stick, an earth wall and a fire technique, do you? Kishimoto does seem to have forgotten him but that's because he has already played his part, he was called God of Shinobi and strongest of the Five Kage by the same person that called Hashi a fairytale.
Wow, Reborn I don't think I've ever seen you in the Naruto Discussion section...ever. Its nice to see you out of the FF and RP section. More to the point, I actually read your wall of text and I disagree. Hiruzen may have seemingly lost all relevance but the words of everyone still stands. When we were hearing of Hashirama matching Uchiha Madara and the Nine Tails and also controlling multiple tailed beasts, all we had to go on was his and Tobirama's measly excuse for skill against Hiruzen. Obviously the levels of power has changed. Kakashi could previously perform only four Raikiri and now I don't think he counts anymore. Tobirama's water techniques being performed without a source impressive, now Yamato and Kakashi and a team of nameless water users have accomplished the same feat. In the face of the current level of power in the ninja world, you don't believe Hiruzen became Hokage because of a monkey stick, an earth wall and a fire technique, do you? Kishimoto does seem to have forgotten him but that's because he has already played his part, he was called God of Shinobi and strongest of the Five Kage by the same person that called Hashi a fairytale.
Reborn
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Re: Hiruzen was being toyed with
You're speaking only on Tobirama's water techniques but you forget that we come to see the up in his power level as a Hokage when we find out he's the creator of Edo Tensai and he has ST techniques that are notible by another Hokage in comparison to that Hokage's own and that of the most dangerous man alive at this point in time. His water jutsu have been downsized now but compensation has been made for that.
I don't remember seeing too many people aside from notable water users (not Kakashi) being able to create techniques with Suiton without a water source required although I might be missing a few things.
Hiruzen obviously became Hokage because of his skills and wide knowledge of ninjutsu. even in his elderly age he was Kage worthy, severly limited yes but Kage worthy nonetheless.
What I'm saying is that we've been given not further insentive. If Hiruzen was meant to be so he wouldn't have been forgotten. Tobirama has only been seen in the canon a hand full of times, only once ever truly fighting yet his power and his contribution comes out more then Hiruzen.
Kishi wasn't consistent but he hasn't been with a lot of things, that's not my full point. He wasn't consistant nor is the attention being given so Hiruzen isn't that much a character to be noted anymore considering the plot now. What does he have to be considered stronger to Hashirama for the plot? He doesn't so he isn't, which is why no more attention is given.
Iruka calls Hiruzn the strongest Hokage (somewhat brownnosing Hiruzen when he was there) and kabuto and most everybody else would say that Hashirama is by far the strongest ever since the Sage, meaning Hiruzen as well.
I've been away for a while, I used to do nothing but discussion.
You're speaking only on Tobirama's water techniques but you forget that we come to see the up in his power level as a Hokage when we find out he's the creator of Edo Tensai and he has ST techniques that are notible by another Hokage in comparison to that Hokage's own and that of the most dangerous man alive at this point in time. His water jutsu have been downsized now but compensation has been made for that.
I don't remember seeing too many people aside from notable water users (not Kakashi) being able to create techniques with Suiton without a water source required although I might be missing a few things.
Hiruzen obviously became Hokage because of his skills and wide knowledge of ninjutsu. even in his elderly age he was Kage worthy, severly limited yes but Kage worthy nonetheless.
What I'm saying is that we've been given not further insentive. If Hiruzen was meant to be so he wouldn't have been forgotten. Tobirama has only been seen in the canon a hand full of times, only once ever truly fighting yet his power and his contribution comes out more then Hiruzen.
Kishi wasn't consistent but he hasn't been with a lot of things, that's not my full point. He wasn't consistant nor is the attention being given so Hiruzen isn't that much a character to be noted anymore considering the plot now. What does he have to be considered stronger to Hashirama for the plot? He doesn't so he isn't, which is why no more attention is given.
Iruka calls Hiruzn the strongest Hokage (somewhat brownnosing Hiruzen when he was there) and kabuto and most everybody else would say that Hashirama is by far the strongest ever since the Sage, meaning Hiruzen as well.
Re: Hiruzen was being toyed with
Whether you guys think he was toying with him or not, Orochimaru lost his arms and the use of his Ninjutsu. And Kabuto stated that Orochimaru had perfected the Edo Tensei; Kabuto has only increased the binding strength. He also stated that Orochimaru's Chakra is what made his version of the Edo Tensei more powerful.
You guys are just refusing to go by what Kishimoto himself said. He said that Prime Hiruzen was the strongest Hokage of all time.
No matter how much "logic" you use, Hiruzen remains the strongest Hokage. Your reason for doubting this is because if Prime Hiruzen > Hashirama, then Prime Hiruzen > Madara. People, Edo Madara is not the same as EMS Madara(previous). The reason Edo Madara is so strong is because Kabuto did something to his body. Maybe Prime Hiruzen is not greater than Edo Madara, but he probably was against EMS Madara(previous).
Remember that to defeat an opponent, you must know the enemy's weakness and take advantage of that weakness to defeat them.
Kishimoto said Prime Hiruzen is stronger than all the other Hokages. End of story. U_U
Whether you guys think he was toying with him or not, Orochimaru lost his arms and the use of his Ninjutsu. And Kabuto stated that Orochimaru had perfected the Edo Tensei; Kabuto has only increased the binding strength. He also stated that Orochimaru's Chakra is what made his version of the Edo Tensei more powerful.
You guys are just refusing to go by what Kishimoto himself said. He said that Prime Hiruzen was the strongest Hokage of all time.
No matter how much "logic" you use, Hiruzen remains the strongest Hokage. Your reason for doubting this is because if Prime Hiruzen > Hashirama, then Prime Hiruzen > Madara. People, Edo Madara is not the same as EMS Madara(previous). The reason Edo Madara is so strong is because Kabuto did something to his body. Maybe Prime Hiruzen is not greater than Edo Madara, but he probably was against EMS Madara(previous).
Remember that to defeat an opponent, you must know the enemy's weakness and take advantage of that weakness to defeat them.
Kishimoto said Prime Hiruzen is stronger than all the other Hokages. End of story. U_U
Reborn
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Re: Hiruzen was being toyed with
So no, Hiruzen prime is not the strongest of all the Hokage. I will also say this, Hiruzen prime is nonexistant, therefore it's irrelivant. Hiruzen's power in his prime is nonexistant and irrelivant. We have a source of Hashirama's powers from his life through Madara.
I'm not talking about Madara's skills I'm talking about what he's taken from Hashirama and is using on a lower scale then Hashirama since it's merely a portion of his abilities.
You saying "no matter 'logic' you use" sort of turned me off because it leads me to believe that you're not actually studying or understanding deeper aspects, only what's put out there in front of you. It's alright to question the creator of a book or a manga or whatever. Kishi said this through the words of Iruka and in a data book but when was the last time in an interview or anything that this was brought up?
I'm only really addressing your last statement because that's the most problomatic thing about your post Imo and I don't say that in an offensive way.
Reading in black and white is not what manga is about, I can argue that what Kabuto said about Hashirama is what Kishi wants and means for it to be but I'm not doing that, I'm using logic to and discen that for myself. When there is a history of inconsistancies with aspects of a manga or series of any kind you're unsure of what to think is ture so you have to use logic based on observations to come to your own conclusions.
So no, Hiruzen prime is not the strongest of all the Hokage. I will also say this, Hiruzen prime is nonexistant, therefore it's irrelivant. Hiruzen's power in his prime is nonexistant and irrelivant. We have a source of Hashirama's powers from his life through Madara.
I'm not talking about Madara's skills I'm talking about what he's taken from Hashirama and is using on a lower scale then Hashirama since it's merely a portion of his abilities.
You saying "no matter 'logic' you use" sort of turned me off because it leads me to believe that you're not actually studying or understanding deeper aspects, only what's put out there in front of you. It's alright to question the creator of a book or a manga or whatever. Kishi said this through the words of Iruka and in a data book but when was the last time in an interview or anything that this was brought up?
I'm only really addressing your last statement because that's the most problomatic thing about your post Imo and I don't say that in an offensive way.
Re: Hiruzen was being toyed with
I respect your opinion, but @Bold: Then why are people making these irrelevant threads? They want to argue about something that has never been shown before. << That's why I don't question Kishimoto's word on this one. If we ever see his power(prime), then we can use that for our arguments, but it is pointless to argue about it until then. Oh, and I sometimes use logic with my posts, but even if I use it here... my opinion will lead nowhere.
Reborn
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Re: Hiruzen was being toyed with
Although it sounds like I'm defending a position of Hashirama and Tobirama superiority, my point is just to balanc the equasion to say that nobody knows enough to accurately discern who>whom and I defend the evidence I belive would support superiority of the two Hokage to demonstrate that.....
That and I'm a Tobirama fanboy
Shhhhhh you answered your own question but don't blow our secret to getting more posts just by arguing the same thing over and over again >_< xd
Although it sounds like I'm defending a position of Hashirama and Tobirama superiority, my point is just to balanc the equasion to say that nobody knows enough to accurately discern who>whom and I defend the evidence I belive would support superiority of the two Hokage to demonstrate that.....
That and I'm a Tobirama fanboy
Re: Hiruzen was being toyed with
LOL I ask a question and answer it as well.Shhhhhh you answered your own question but don't blow our secret to getting more posts just by arguing the same thing over and over again >_< xd
Although it sounds like I'm defending a position of Hashirama and Tobirama superiority, my point is just to balanc the equasion to say that nobody knows enough to accurately discern who>whom and I defend the evidence I belive would support superiority of the two Hokage to demonstrate that.....
That and I'm a Tobirama fanboy
Reborn
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Re: Hiruzen was being toyed with
She said it's alright to talk to yourself but when you start answering and having conversations with yourself...then you need to get yourself examined. I have three way conversations with myself and my dog 0_o....
_______
OT (so I can avoid this post being considered spam). Hiruzen was a Hokage and so was Hashirama and Tobirama and they were strong and we don't know who's stronger 0_0 (spam crisis averted)
Reminds me of a funny story my mother told me about talking to yourself.
She said it's alright to talk to yourself but when you start answering and having conversations with yourself...then you need to get yourself examined. I have three way conversations with myself and my dog 0_o....
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OT (so I can avoid this post being considered spam). Hiruzen was a Hokage and so was Hashirama and Tobirama and they were strong and we don't know who's stronger 0_0 (spam crisis averted)
chopstickchakra
Active member
Re: Hiruzen was being toyed with
There we go. A logical thinker + rep my friend.
eyesofthekyuubi44
Active member
Re: Hiruzen was being toyed with
Kishimoto gave characters and opinion and personalities different from his own, meaning that just because a character says something doesn't always mean it to be true. He has made his characters distinct.
You have to read context. Hiruzen was stated to be the strongest of the five Kage in Part I, which MAY or MAY NOT be true (I'm leaning towards Hashirama being greater). Then the same Kabuto says in Part II that Hashirama had fabled strength like the Sage of the Six Paths. During this statement, there was no mention of Hiruzen at all. You would think he would have added the only Shinobi that is supposedly stronger (by some people on here's hype) than him other than the Sage to this statement. But he singled out Hashirama and the Sage. To use the argument that "Hiruzen isn't alive so it isn't relavent" is a weak argument because that is a very large statement to even PUT a Shinobi in the same sentence as the Sage.
Meaning to me, and not directly saying it, but implying that Kabuto's opinions likely changed based on knowledge he probably gained since then about Hashirama's abilities. Hell, even Orochimaru wasn't REALLY around at the time of the First (maybe the 2nd). Shodaime died during the first war and there isn't evidence to indicate that Orochimaru, who was Kabuto's mentor knowing this or knowing of Hashirama's abilities to contradict Kabuto when he said that Hiruzen was the strongest of the Kage.
I agree with this. Also, you cannot take what is written in the manga as "words from Kishimoto". As I've said in countless posts, if everything that a character said was true, then Sasuke would be dead...
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Kishimoto gave characters and opinion and personalities different from his own, meaning that just because a character says something doesn't always mean it to be true. He has made his characters distinct.
You have to read context. Hiruzen was stated to be the strongest of the five Kage in Part I, which MAY or MAY NOT be true (I'm leaning towards Hashirama being greater). Then the same Kabuto says in Part II that Hashirama had fabled strength like the Sage of the Six Paths. During this statement, there was no mention of Hiruzen at all. You would think he would have added the only Shinobi that is supposedly stronger (by some people on here's hype) than him other than the Sage to this statement. But he singled out Hashirama and the Sage. To use the argument that "Hiruzen isn't alive so it isn't relavent" is a weak argument because that is a very large statement to even PUT a Shinobi in the same sentence as the Sage.
Meaning to me, and not directly saying it, but implying that Kabuto's opinions likely changed based on knowledge he probably gained since then about Hashirama's abilities. Hell, even Orochimaru wasn't REALLY around at the time of the First (maybe the 2nd). Shodaime died during the first war and there isn't evidence to indicate that Orochimaru, who was Kabuto's mentor knowing this or knowing of Hashirama's abilities to contradict Kabuto when he said that Hiruzen was the strongest of the Kage.