MinatoFLASH
Active member
Kakashi has too many ninjutsu and experience. He is superior in ninjutsu and even taijutsu and at least equal in intelligence. I give this to Kakashi Hatake.
Itachi vs. Kakashi (without sharingan)
- Thread starter Mante
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kakashi superior in taijutsu? whered u get that 1?
kakashi simply has more feats due to being one of the main characters.... but they are tied in databook ranks...
itachi has a 5 in speed, which incorporates reaction time etc......how is kakashi beating him in taijutsu again?
Ninjutsu ok, but what good are they gonna do?
And you are completely ignoring itachi's genjutsu, which he owned a sannin with at 11/13.....
why are you people under the assumption itachi doesn't have genjutsu?
hokutoshinken
Active member
Stop make stuff up.Databook was clear about it.
English translation says that Demonic illusion Performing handseals is unnecessary. All what he need to use this technique is to have the enemy meet one of the sharingan eye.
handseals is unnecessary,that doesn't mean that Itachi can do it without Sharingan.
Saying that he could use it without sharingan is just speculation.Itachi used 3 times Demonic Illusion,each time he used with sharingan and never with handseals.
There is nowhere in manga itachi using Demonic Illusion with handsigns, this is wrong statement.
:flaw:
Saying using handseals is unnecessary IMPLIES, that you can use it with handseals but it is not NEEDED. it goes on to say all he has to do is look in the persons eye
Basic english.. BASIC
Blaze Release
Active member
We would be drifting off this thread, but ill still entertain the thought of itachi without sharigan vs kakashi with sharigan.
Itachi still has his prowess with genjutsu without the sharigan. Now we know that the sharigan allows you to see genjutsu, thats about it. Its up to the user to break it, i do admit that should be able to break it, but regardless itachi's still uses in battle. He has countered this before by using a clone, but we know how clones work and kakashi's stamina problems. We also know about the effects on the sharigan on kakashi and his stamina. If he was to counter itachi's genjutsu with a clone which splits chakra, but also using the sharigan which drains his chakra this counter to genjutsu isnt a smart one. If i remember correctly he used this strategy because he had back up in naruto. Obviously in a 1 vs 1 fight, he'd have to come up with another strategy or else he is domed;
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Not only in a 1 vs 1 fight will it be a risky move he has already used this before therefore i dont believe somebody of itachi's intelligence would fall for it again. Also seem to forget that this was 30% chakra itachi clone. Chakra is made up of spiritual and physical energy and at 30% itachi's physical/strength isnt that great. 100% his physical strength would be at his peak and with that should out muscle the kage kunshin.
Kakashi couldnt follow itachi's handseal with his shairgan alone. Regardless whether this was part 1, he still wouldnt be able to follow it and with this itachi gains 2 advantages;
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First one being kakashi wouldnt be able to copy anf counter;, like he did against kisame's technique and not surprisingly kisame has a 3.5/5 for handspeed;
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The next advantage is that he since he cannot read it, he wouldnt know what jutsu itachi is about it use, like the way he saw through kakuzu's who i believe has a 4/5 for handspeed;
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Basically kakashi with the sharigan wouldnt be able to copy, but also counter itachi's ninjutsu's because they are too fast regardless, so this advantage that kakashi gains when he fight's others, he doesnt have in this fight.
The sharigan would help him keep up with itachi's taijutsu and speed.
Both have an equal taijutsu skill, but due to itachi's advantage in speed by 0.5 would make him have the edge in a taijutsu fight. With the sharigan, kakashi would make this an even field. Note that this still isnt guaranteed because as we saw in the fight between lee and sasuke, its been said that even if you can see movements with the sharigan if you cannot react in time, its pointless being able to see it;
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Basically even with the sharigan, itachi's superior reflex and speed could still make him outclass kakashi in a taijutsu fight.
The real advantage kakashi has is his ninjutsu feats, apart from that the sharigan wouldnt help him that much in this fight as ive explained above and infact would put him at the disadvantage due to what the effects of the sharigan. It would also help him see genjutsu but thats up to him to break break.
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phantomlord22
Active member
kakashi many fans
itachi too many fans
I'm a kakashi fan I LOVE him and I also like itachi
Itachi will win if they both have their full powers and that's what matter
this thing kakashi will win
itachi too many fans
I'm a kakashi fan I LOVE him and I also like itachi
Itachi will win if they both have their full powers and that's what matter
this thing kakashi will win
USSJ Future Trunks
Active member
ive never seen itachi use non sharingan genjutsu.
im pretty sure kakashis better in every area. experience, ninjutsu etc. the only reason itachi was ever considered better was overpowered ms techs.
Nice post +rep even if i'm not completely agree.
Without sharingan, Itachi's genjutsu isn't as strong than with sharingan.In the manga he used only 2 genjutsus (crow,ephemerak) without sharingan.He used 4 times his sharingan genjutsu,and it worked on everyone except not on Kakashi.Deidara ,Orochimaru and Kurenai.Some people dare to say that even without mangekyou Itachi would beat Orochimaru.This is of course wrong.Itachi said it to Orochimaru "you can't win against these eyes".
Now that Itachi can only use what he showed in the manga ,Kakashi without sharingan will not be affected but these crow and ephemeral genjutsu level.
He's largelly skilled to know about genjutsus, he has a knowledge about genjutsu long time ago.
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He did similar genjutsu to Sakura without Sharingan in first chapters .As you can see he need keep stay with ram hand seal to use genjutsu.
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Naruto who was reputed for weak with genjutsu , he imediatelly knew that it was genjutsu , itachi had to use 2 genjutsu and still Natuto was near to despell it himself.
I noticed something, when Itachi prepare his genjutsu without sharigan he has to perform a hand seal and keep the Ram seal for a moment (just like Kakashi when he used it against Sakura). I believe that it would be easier for Kakashi compared to visual genjutsus.
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Kakashi's clone knew that itachi prepared a genjutsu even before that he got eye contact ." goukakyuu...but something been"
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He just let it happen since it's just a clone,itachi 30% was already condamned.Even if Kakashi didn't have the sharingan,Itachi would have still fail since it's just a clone.
Sharingan isn't needed for Kakashi to win against Itachi without sharingan.Kakashi use most elemental than regular clones.
There is no way for itachi to detect it.raiton clone cost a few chakra compared to Shadow clone.Let's says it was a raiton clone.
Itachi get paralysed and electrocuted, and he would spend his chakra for nothing since it's a raiton clone.
We know that Itachi has low stanima,A kakashi without sharingan would have a big advantage uppon him.His 2 genjutsu, katon and suiton isn't enough , now that Kakashi know about what Itachi has.Itachi has no choice to use the same jutsus again, but i don't beleive that the same jutsus will works against Kakashi.
As i said ,in a 1vs1 fight Kakashi can trick him with a raiton clone.It consume few chakra,i don't remember any failed clone strategy from kakashi.Itachi without Sharingan will get trouble in front of the versality of Kakashi who will gain more stanima without sharingan.
Also seem to forget that this was a 50% kakashi clone .50% kakashi clone knew in advance that it was a genjutsu before the eye contact .Now even if Itachi was at 100% .Kakashi could trick if it was a raiton kage bunshin instead of a shadow clone.
Kakashi part 1 ( 435 chapters ago) coulnd't follow itachi's handseal?
He proved the contrary ,i'm not basing of his words,i'm basing to his actions.There is nowhere kakashi saying the word hand seals.
Kakashi noticed his feint with kunai and hardly saw that he used a suiton,otherwize he'd not use suiton too.
It was almost taijutsu range 'close range),it's rare that a fight start in this condition.
Despite the few time kakashi had to react (close range), he was still able to block itachi's suiton with a suiton , prepare a suiton clone, and finally know that Itachi was a clone to save kurenai.It's a bit a lot for someone who is supossed to not barelly see Itachi's movement isn't it?
Even an Itachi with sharingan coulnd't trick kakashi,his victory was clearly due to his mangekyou.in this rare case close range fight (dialog/interrogation context) Itachi coulnd't touch Kakashi with his suiton.
There is no chance that he does it in middle range.
Kakashi can use multiple of Jutsus without his sharingan,he has nin-ken dogs .I'm not even sure how Itachi could handle it when he we know that he barelly avoid Kakashi's clone's upercut in their 2nd fight.Now without sharingan ,he'll have 8 dogs under on him.
Not to mension all Kakashi's other's jutsu like his raiju hashiri which he can do without handseal , extend and control its trajectory.He can use rasengan without his sharingan.raikiri can be countered because it's an assassin jutsu the users have to run straight line with incredible speed.It's not the only way to use it, for exemple in a taijutsu battle it can be very usefull.
Also People forget that Sasuke used his chidori without his sharingan when he confronted Naruto.
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Itachi without Sharingan will not only be limited to predict movement but he will only be able to use jutsus that Kakashi know already ( suiton, katon, 2 genjutsus),there is no need of sharingan against him.
In close range maybe Itachi would have a chance to surprise a Kakashi without sharingan but it's pretty rare that there is
ninjutsu exchange in that range .
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As i said before, if Kakashi couln't read his handseals,how he come to know that he used a suiton jutsu and countered it with a suiton as well ?
He knew that kunais was a feint, i hope you realize that it's not a little suiton wave that will block the metalic kunais.
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As i said you're refeering to Kakashi's words, i'm refeering to his action .
actions > words
It's clearly shows that Kakashi could block itachi's attack even at close range,in middle range it's not possible for Itachi.
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Yes it's been said that even if you can see movements with the sharigan if you cannot react in time,its pointless being able to see it.There you are forgeting something important, not only both Itachi and Kakashi will
not be able to predict other's movements but Kakashi has a non negleagable advantages there.
The gates , yes Kakashi can open at least 1 gate .
Databook is clear :
Kakashi can take an advantages in taijutsu with gates.Not to mension his speed improvement during the war.he could handle bijuu v2 while Naruto and Bee was barelly able to avoid their speed and attacks.
Both without restriction,Itachi win but both without Sharingan,Kakashi win.
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EliteKakashi
Active member
Blaze Release
Active member
Damn ive got two kakashi fans to battle, ive just finished reading Itachi49 post and ill respond later. Infact ill wait till you post then ill quote both of you after. Btw why dont you send me a request. Ive got great respect for you :scorps:
EliteKakashi
Active member
Just to make clear, I haven't read Itachi49's post, although I did notice it was a pretty lengthy one, so if I repeat anything he's said, my apologies.
I don't think Itachi has a reflex advantage when you take away his sharingan and allow Kakashi to keep his, either.
That tactic was only used to counter tsukyomi, and it's obviously a needed tactic given if Kakashi were to get caught in it, he would be done for. Itachi wouldn't have tsukyomi without his sharingan, though. And I'm not sure Itachi has a high enough level genjutsu to trap Kakashi that doesn't involve the sharingan. Has Itachi ever done anything not related to the sharingan as far as genjutsu goes outside of that finger genjutsu he used on Naruto? There was that crow genjutsu he used, but I'm not sure that's gonna be effective on Kakashi either given his sharingan. I understand Itachi has a high ranking in genjutsu, but what real genjutsu abilities does he have without the sharingan?
No one has been able to spot Kakashi's kage bunshins to date, I don't think it matters how many times it's done, cause you can't tell the difference, even with the byakugan of if it's the real one or not. Yeah, obviously attacking him would work, but that could also be playing in to Kakashi's hands as well, on the chance it could be a raiton kage bunshin or whatever.
The only problem with this "advantage" for Itachi is the fact that Kakashi knows he's a katon and suiton(though he's only ever used 1 suiton jutsu) user. He knows what to be prepared for when it comes to Itachi. And while it's very true that Kakashi may not be able to copy/counter, he can very much so evade as he proved vs 30% Itachi( I know it was 30%, but the jutsu is still the same).
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The Lee vs Sasuke example would be a good one if A. Sasuke's sharingan then was as good as Kakashi's now and if B. the gap between Sasuke and Lee in taijutsu/speed was the same as it is between Itachi and Kakashi. Sasuke was a 3 in speed and 2.5 in taijutsu compared to Lee's 4 and 3.5 respectively. Kakashi and Itachi are, as you said, the same other than a .5 difference in speed. Which Kakashi's sharingan, in this case, makes up for, IMO.
I don't think Itachi has a reflex advantage when you take away his sharingan and allow Kakashi to keep his, either.
KimiNiTodoke
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godisme132
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