[Theory] Kotoamatsukami, Tobi, Danzo, the Uchiha Massacre and more.

[Bigfoot34501]

Actually, this is the correct translation of the conversation Bee and Itachi were having.

Bee - うちは最強の幻術使い…　瞬身 の シ スイか？ -> Uchiha's strongest genjutsu user... Shisui of the body flicker?
Itachi - シスイの瞳力は対象者 が 幻 術 に か けら れたと自覚する事なく操 る 事が出来 る 最 強 幻 術 を 生 む　木の葉を守れ… -> Shisui's eye power had the ability to control the target without them even noticing bla bla bla...

Itachi didn't say Shisui's eyes. He used 瞳力, which means eye power.

Plus, he later on states that he embedded it specifically into the left eye of the crow.
I think that too, has been left out of the translation.

It's stated in the third databook that in order to be able to use Susanoo, one must awaken the abilities in both eyes. This indicates that each MS in a pair has different abilities.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

... Stuff about Itachi's Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, one enabling to show substances of light, one of darkness bla bla bla... Only those that have been able to use both of these doujutsu can use the power of the malevolent god Susanoo...
​

It states that Itachi can only use Susanoo because he has awakened Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, his respective MS techniques.

By categorizing each eye in a pair of MS seperately, it means that each MS is supposed to have different jutsus indeed. :shrug:

You got me on a translation error, I can't compete with you on that! :T_T:

Alright he may not have KA excatly, but Danzo still had some epic genjutsu and he couldn't have used it against Yagura to help Tobi because Shisui wasn't dead at the time. Also Bee was immune to genjutsu when Sasuke used it against him, so Tobi had to be using something else that was powerful enough to override Yagura and his tailed beats' immunity to genjutsu. And since Mei noted that the tech Tobi used and the tech Danzo used are similar, I still think Tobi is using an eye of Shisui's relative that has Shisui's MS techniques:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see links

 

[Kirin Rei]

You got me on a translation error, I can't compete with you on that! :T_T:

Alright he may not have KA excatly, but Danzo still had some epic genjutsu and he couldn't have used it against Yagura to help Tobi because Shisui wasn't dead at the time. Also Bee was immune to genjutsu when Sasuke used it against him, so Tobi had to be using something else that was powerful enough to override Yagura and his tailed beats' immunity to genjutsu. And since Mei noted that the tech Tobi used and the tech Danzo used are similar, I still think Tobi is using an eye of Shisui's relative that has Shisui's MS techniques:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see links

Hahahaha dammit!

I was so engrossed in this that I completely forgot Shisui was alive and kicking when Yagura was being controlled. Bah. :sy:

Yeah, good point about perfect Jinchuuriki being immune to genjutsu.

For some reason, I always thought that Yagura was already dead and was being controlled in a puppet like manner by Tobi.
Isobu was found while roaming out in the wild. I doubt that Tobi would have let a bijuu out of his hand, seeing that he already had the Sharingan back then to control it.

The bijuu regenerate after being killed along with their host. I think that was the reason Isobu was in the wild, instead of in the hands of a village.
Tsunade claimed that it disappeared after a great war, but that was just speculation.

 

[boshans]

About the Danzo point, about him controlling Yagura/Mifune with Kotoamatsukami, there is one flaw with that in my mind. Just because Danzo had his eye doesn't mean he was able to activate MS. I always thought it was just a special ability of Shisui's normal 3 tomoe sharingan that Danzo was using to control Mifune. I mean I guess you can say it is like Kakashi with him activating his MS, but Danzo was only ever shown with base sharingan. Plus Shisui already activated MS before he gave Danzo his eye, and it was obviously in base form when Danzo took off his bandanges on his eye. We don't really know for sure if Danzo is able to activate a MS that is just a transplant if he himself didn't activate it in the first place.

I mean we know normal sharingan can produce genjutsu, Itachi did it against Naruto with just normal sharingan. Why couldn't Danzo have used a lesser version of KA against Mifune that just took a 3 tomoe? If KA was so powerful if Danzo used it against Mifune how would Mifune suddenly change his mind afterwards when he found out he was under a genjutsu? The way it seems to me the use of KA is supposed to stay with the person, basically forever. If it is strong enough to completely override Edo Tensei and there is nothing Kabuto can do to cancel it, I don't see how Mifune would just go back to normal afterwards. That's why I think it was just a powerful 3 tomoe genjutsu unique to Shisui also.

 

[Bigfoot34501]

Hahahaha dammit!

I was so engrossed in this that I completely forgot Shisui was alive and kicking when Yagura was being controlled. Bah. :sy:

Yeah, good point about perfect Jinchuuriki being immune to genjutsu.

For some reason, I always thought that Yagura was already dead and was being controlled in a puppet like manner by Tobi.
Isobu was found while roaming out in the wild. I doubt that Tobi would have let a bijuu out of his hand, seeing that he already had the Sharingan back then to control it.

The bijuu regenerate after being killed along with their host. I think that was the reason Isobu was in the wild, instead of in the hands of a village.
Tsunade claimed that it disappeared after a great war, but that was just speculation.

I personally think that when Ao found out that Yagura was being controlled, the Hidden Mist sent in the army to take down Yagura. I think that in the battle that followed, Yagura was unintentionally killed by the Mist shinobi, Tobi fled the village, and Isobu reappeared in that lake

Also Tsunade stating that Isobu disappeared after the Great War was part of the Three Tails filler, it wasn't in the manga. So we don't know when the Three Tails disappeared into the wild

I think Kishi's going to need an entire flashback arc of the Hidden Mist village to explain all of the mysteries that revolve around it :|

 

[jorgelius]

i didn't read all of the posts but this is surdanly interesting.. about yagura controlled via kotoamatsukami, hmm what we know shisui had those eyes at that time and based on itachi word man was all about of will of fire, idk when or why he use it but i think _shisui_ used it. my personal theory is that tobi is seen multiple times but while it was shown with yagura i think that truly was uchiha madara, before his dead, he was know ability to tame and might have doujutsu/genjutsu strong/similar to kotoamatsukami.

i think madara "create" tobi with izanagi or one named bonshun is said many times something like creation of all things is needed if wish create so whatever, madara created tobi, and he inherit sharingan, wierd body witch constructed by uchiha and hashirama genes , but tobi himself did not have rinnegan any time just sharingan "empty shell" of former strengt what madara had within his ems, but tobi too had somewhat unique sharingan. i don't even speculate more.


about shisui, i think both of his eyes had ability to use kotoamatsukami, and together maybe tech yet to revealed wich i don't think it being susanoo, everyone is supposed to have unique abilities in ms, thats why i hope at some point kakashi awaken ems, and keep somewhat even close his students

 

[boshans]

I don't know why no one seems to think each MS eye has a different ability other than me and Kirin. Adding to my previous post, if Itachi had Shisui's eye with KA in it, than Danzo could not have possibly used it, and my theory about it just being a very strong 3 tomoe genjutsu is even better.

Seriously though, each MS eye always has a different tech, and to use Susanoo you need to unlock both MS eye techs. So KA couldn't have been in both of Shisui's eyes. The only tech that it seems like every MS user can use, IF he unlocks both MS eye techs, is Susanoo. Plus every MS user should have completely different techs in each eye, although we don't know that 100% yet, it does seem that way. Edo Madara hasn't used Amaterasu yet, is that because his eye doesn't have that tech? We don't know yet, but it might be true. I would think he would have wanted to use Amaterasu against 5 Kages already. Why Itachi and Sasuke both have the same techs could be because they are brothers, or because of Itachi planting Amaterasu in Sasukes eyes before he awakened MS himself. Who knows. This is getting off topic though.

Danzo couldn't have possibly used KA against Yagura, or Mifune for that matter, since Itachi is the one who had the KA eye, not Danzo.

 

[darthdawg]

good theory.............

 

[jorgelius]

I don't know why no one seems to think each MS eye has a different ability other than me and Kirin. Adding to my previous post, if Itachi had Shisui's eye with KA in it, than Danzo could not have possibly used it, and my theory about it just being a very strong 3 tomoe genjutsu is even better.

Seriously though, each MS eye always has a different tech, and to use Susanoo you need to unlock both MS eye techs. So KA couldn't have been in both of Shisui's eyes. The only tech that it seems like every MS user can use, IF he unlocks both MS eye techs, is Susanoo. Plus every MS user should have completely different techs in each eye, although we don't know that 100% yet, it does seem that way. Edo Madara hasn't used Amaterasu yet, is that because his eye doesn't have that tech? We don't know yet, but it might be true. I would think he would have wanted to use Amaterasu against 5 Kages already. Why Itachi and Sasuke both have the same techs could be because they are brothers, or because of Itachi planting Amaterasu in Sasukes eyes before he awakened MS himself. Who knows. This is getting off topic though.

Danzo couldn't have possibly used KA against Yagura, or Mifune for that matter, since Itachi is the one who had the KA eye, not Danzo.

itachi and sasuke have same eye techs coz itachi snapped sasuke forehead and gave him his ocular powers, it is said u need to have mangekyo in both eyes to open susanoo, and that's just one third power.. meaning either izuna or madara had it. i think too that izuna and madara did have completely different ms techs and since itachi and sasuke have same, that susanoo should be much stronger than madara have.

example obito could have kamui and other eye bujahasa some serious genjutsu and third power would be whole body covered kamui like shield any attack goes straight to other dimension? idk did anyone get what i tried to say

 

[dowhatupreach]

your post, somehow, supports the theory that tobi is sasuke. Remember how sasuke hated itachi for killing the uchiha? well, this time its tobi hating madara for killing the uchiha. cool post though nevertheless. :y

 

[soggysombrero]

edo madara has hashirama in his chest...tobi is izuna and has tobirama in his chest?!?!?!?!

O.O

 

[Kirin Rei]

itachi and sasuke have same eye techs coz itachi snapped sasuke forehead and gave him his ocular powers, it is said u need to have mangekyo in both eyes to open susanoo, and that's just one third power.. meaning either izuna or madara had it. i think too that izuna and madara did have completely different ms techs and since itachi and sasuke have same, that susanoo should be much stronger than madara have.

example obito could have kamui and other eye bujahasa some serious genjutsu and third power would be whole body covered kamui like shield any attack goes straight to other dimension? idk did anyone get what i tried to say

Hmm, actually Itachi and Sasuke have their techniques placed in different eyes. While one has Amaterasu in the left, the other has it in their right, and the same goes for Tsukuyomi.

I'm not sure what Itachi implanted into Sasuke's eye. It could have just been a momentary Amaterasu rigged to go off at the sight of Tobi's Sharingan, if such a thing is possible. Because it was Itachi's MS pattern that showed when it activated.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Or it could actually be Amaterasu itself, in general.
From what we understand, you awaken your MS techniques one at a time. Itachi's gift to Sasuke might have awakened Amaterasu for him and spared Sasuke the trouble of training for it himself. :shrug:

Anyways...

I think that regardless of what MS techniques you have, once you awaken them both, you get Susanoo. It doesn't necessarily have to be Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi. Otherwise Madara wouldn't have had it.

I suppose the MS techs you have determine the abilities that come along with Susanoo.
Like how Sasuke was able to throw Amaterasu instead of the regular Yasaka Magatama versions.

For example, Obito's Susanoo might have had an additional power related to S/T jutsus. Maybe a bigger scale Kamui, or multiple ones.

 

[bigblunts420]

I don't know why no one seems to think each MS eye has a different ability other than me and Kirin. Adding to my previous post, if Itachi had Shisui's eye with KA in it, than Danzo could not have possibly used it, and my theory about it just being a very strong 3 tomoe genjutsu is even better.

Seriously though, each MS eye always has a different tech, and to use Susanoo you need to unlock both MS eye techs. So KA couldn't have been in both of Shisui's eyes. The only tech that it seems like every MS user can use, IF he unlocks both MS eye techs, is Susanoo. Plus every MS user should have completely different techs in each eye, although we don't know that 100% yet, it does seem that way. Edo Madara hasn't used Amaterasu yet, is that because his eye doesn't have that tech? We don't know yet, but it might be true. I would think he would have wanted to use Amaterasu against 5 Kages already. Why Itachi and Sasuke both have the same techs could be because they are brothers, or because of Itachi planting Amaterasu in Sasukes eyes before he awakened MS himself. Who knows. This is getting off topic though.

Danzo couldn't have possibly used KA against Yagura, or Mifune for that matter, since Itachi is the one who had the KA eye, not Danzo.

Dont get me wrong i deffently dont think he used koto on yagura.

but i just had to make this point.

and that is who even cares what its called. it does the same thing koto does. not trying to flame but sometimes we as everybody lose track to reailty, we get focused argument and only think about how i can prove my point or way of thinking... instead of sitting back and making objective opinions (lol oxymoran)

pure and simple ka and danzo tech do the same thing put someone in a genjutse without them knowing.

ps. please dont try to valadate why u said what u did i understand what u were thinking, accept and understand

 

[XiZ]

I could see Danzo using Shisui's eye on Itachi, but what the theory fails to explain is what's in it for Danzo.

If Danzo and Itachi had Shisui's eye, then they were the only two that could use Kotoamtsukami. If that's true, Danzo didn't need Tobi's help, which means he'd have no need to ally with him.

This made me think.

First of all, thanks for the analyses guys. Kirin Rei cleared up a bunch of my errors which I thank him for.



"It seems as if Shisui's right eye also has a strong suggestive genjutsu similar to Kotoamatsukami, but it's not the same." It's either that or...

Danzo didn't have KA. But Itachi had it. What if Danzo somehow manipulated Itachi into using Shisui's KA eye on himself? The only problem I can see is the timeline. It doesn't fit since Itachi was 15-16 when he murdered his clan and he's 21 now. The KA needs 10 years to re-activate. My only guess is that Itachi, because he wanted to protect Konoha, used KA on himself but he insisted that after that the eye would stay with Danzo so it can re-activate faster. Danzo supposedly agreed to this because he knew Itachi would spill the beans. In this way, Itachi also ensured his brother's safety. It seems that some time after all this Itachi got the eye back.
Maybe Danzo made threats(on Sasuke's life probably) to make Itachi use the KA on himself.

Then again, why does it say in Narutopedia that Danzo had KA?

You must be registered for see links

Also, here

You must be registered for see links

, under the Users tab we have: "Danzō Shimura (with Shisui's Sharingan)".

 

[Kirin Rei]

This made me think.

First of all, thanks for the analyses guys. Kirin Rei cleared up a bunch of my errors which I thank him for.



"It seems as if Shisui's right eye also has a strong suggestive genjutsu similar to Kotoamatsukami, but it's not the same." It's either that or...

Danzo didn't have KA. But Itachi had it. What if Danzo somehow manipulated Itachi into using Shisui's KA eye on himself? The only problem I can see is the timeline. It doesn't fit since Itachi was 15-16 when he murdered his clan and he's 21 now. The KA needs 10 years to re-activate. My only guess is that Itachi, because he wanted to protect Konoha, used KA on himself but he insisted that after that the eye would stay with Danzo so it can re-activate faster. Danzo supposedly agreed to this because he knew Itachi would spill the beans. In this way, Itachi also ensured his brother's safety. It seems that some time after all this Itachi got the eye back.
Maybe Danzo made threats(on Sasuke's life probably) to make Itachi use the KA on himself.

Then again, why does it say in Narutopedia that Danzo had KA?

You must be registered for see links

Also, here

You must be registered for see links

, under the Users tab we have: "Danzō Shimura (with Shisui's Sharingan)".

Actually, Itachi was 13 when he took part in the massacre, around the same time he was appointed as an ANBU captain.

He also passed the Chuunin exams when he was around 10.

We know that Shisui was ordered to keep an eye on Itachi by the Uchiha shortly after he joined ANBU. If we theorize that he was recruited for ANBU in the one year after the Chuunin exams, that sets a perfect basis for Shisui to have used his final Kotoamatsukami on him and died.

What I mean by this is that Danzo doesn't necessarily have to be the one who used KA on Itachi.
It could have been Shisui himself.

Shisui could have been the original double agent, but later on seeing that it was required for him to die, might have left the task to Itachi and sealed the deal with his KA.
It actually makes sense.
We've seen that Shisui's right eye has a very strong suggestive genjutsu like thingy. He could have just used it on Fugaku to appoint him to keep watch over Itachi. :shrug:

Oh, by the way, the information on Narutowikia is provided by the fans.
The site is generally accurate, but because everybody can edit the info there, some inconsistencies show when it comes to poorly translated debatable topics. :izuna:

 

[XiZ]

Actually, Itachi was 13 when he took part in the massacre, around the same time he was appointed as an ANBU captain.

He also passed the Chuunin exams when he was around 10.

We know that Shisui was ordered to keep an eye on Itachi by the Uchiha shortly after he joined ANBU. If we theorize that he was recruited for ANBU in the one year after the Chuunin exams, that sets a perfect basis for Shisui to have used his final Kotoamatsukami on him and died.

What I mean by this is that Danzo doesn't necessarily have to be the one who used KA on Itachi.
It could have been Shisui himself.

Shisui could have been the original double agent, but later on seeing that it was required for him to die, might have left the task to Itachi and sealed the deal with his KA.
It actually makes sense.
We've seen that Shisui's right eye has a very strong suggestive genjutsu like thingy. He could have just used it on Fugaku to appoint him to keep watch over Itachi. :shrug:

Oh, by the way, the information on Narutowikia is provided by the fans.
The site is generally accurate, but because everybody can edit the info there, some inconsistencies show when it comes to poorly translated debatable topics. :izuna:

Nice, this does really make sense. Also, maybe fake, but this is what's in Narutowikia: "Shisui then entrusted the other (eye) to Itachi telling him to protect the village". I guess Shisui didn't just "tell" Itachi to "protect Konoha", huh?

 

[Qcks]

Then again, why does it say in Narutopedia that Danzo had KA?

Because he used something like it against Mifune at the Kage summit. It's possible that it was actually Kotoamatsukami. I'm not convinced that it wasn't. We don't actually know if it was or wasn't. Shisui's MS abilities had already been activated by the time they were implanted, so it's not clear if you need both eyes to access the MS abilities or just one. Even if the requirement is just a means of denying Kakashi access to Susanoo'O, it'd still hold up because Kakashi's MS wasn't active at the time of it's implantation.

Using the time line provided by Kirin and accepting the fact that Shisui's eyes take 10 years to 'recharge', it's possible that Danzo used the eye on Itachi, who then used the eye left to him (itachi) on Tobi.

This would explain why Tobi was with Itachi, but it's not entirely clear if this would be necessary, since there's every indication that Tobi would kill the Uchiha off if given a chance.

That said, Both eyes would have the ten years they need to recharge.

Technically though, Danzo wouldn't need 10 years to recharge since he had access to Harashima Chakra thanks to the graft he had on his chest. Itachi confirmed that Senju chakra could unlock the ability to use it again before 10 years passed when he used his Kotoamatsukami to release him from Kabuto's Edo Tensai.

 

[boshans]

Actually, Itachi was 13 when he took part in the massacre, around the same time he was appointed as an ANBU captain.

He also passed the Chuunin exams when he was around 10.

We know that Shisui was ordered to keep an eye on Itachi by the Uchiha shortly after he joined ANBU. If we theorize that he was recruited for ANBU in the one year after the Chuunin exams, that sets a perfect basis for Shisui to have used his final Kotoamatsukami on him and died.

What I mean by this is that Danzo doesn't necessarily have to be the one who used KA on Itachi.
It could have been Shisui himself.

Shisui could have been the original double agent, but later on seeing that it was required for him to die, might have left the task to Itachi and sealed the deal with his KA.
It actually makes sense.
We've seen that Shisui's right eye has a very strong suggestive genjutsu like thingy. He could have just used it on Fugaku to appoint him to keep watch over Itachi. :shrug:

Oh, by the way, the information on Narutowikia is provided by the fans.
The site is generally accurate, but because everybody can edit the info there, some inconsistencies show when it comes to poorly translated debatable topics. :izuna:

Just a thought, but do we know that it takes Shisui himself 10 years to use his own MS again? I always thought that the 10 year thing was for his transplanted eyes. If the eye is inside of him still, with his chakra running through it and everything...it just seems weird that it would take him 10 years to activate his own MS again.

 

[Bigfoot34501]

This made me think.

First of all, thanks for the analyses guys. Kirin Rei cleared up a bunch of my errors which I thank him for.



"It seems as if Shisui's right eye also has a strong suggestive genjutsu similar to Kotoamatsukami, but it's not the same." It's either that or...

Danzo didn't have KA. But Itachi had it. What if Danzo somehow manipulated Itachi into using Shisui's KA eye on himself? The only problem I can see is the timeline. It doesn't fit since Itachi was 15-16 when he murdered his clan and he's 21 now. The KA needs 10 years to re-activate. My only guess is that Itachi, because he wanted to protect Konoha, used KA on himself but he insisted that after that the eye would stay with Danzo so it can re-activate faster. Danzo supposedly agreed to this because he knew Itachi would spill the beans. In this way, Itachi also ensured his brother's safety. It seems that some time after all this Itachi got the eye back.
Maybe Danzo made threats(on Sasuke's life probably) to make Itachi use the KA on himself.

Then again, why does it say in Narutopedia that Danzo had KA?

You must be registered for see links

Also, here

You must be registered for see links

, under the Users tab we have: "Danzō Shimura (with Shisui's Sharingan)".

IMO, I don't think it matters that if Shisui's right eye had Kotoamatsukami or some other ultra powerful genjutsu. What's important is the fact that Mei noted that Danzo's tech and the tech Tobi used are very similar to each other. And when we saw Tobi manipulating Yagura, it was implied that he only had his right eye at the time from what we saw and from what Kisame said after Tobi opened his eye:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see links

So what I'm wondering about is, if Tobi has the same eye tech as Shisui's right eye in his right own right eye, then why did he try taking Shisui's eye from Danzo? Was he after Shisui's eye for that overpowered genjutsu? Or was he after it for another reason like say for example, EMS?

 

[OWanime]

HOLY $H!T thank god for your prediction because no one has ever thought of that until now :worshippy:

 

[XiZ]

IMO, I don't think it matters that if Shisui's right eye had Kotoamatsukami or some other ultra powerful genjutsu. What's important is the fact that Mei noted that Danzo's tech and the tech Tobi used are very similar to each other. And when we saw Tobi manipulating Yagura, it was implied that he only had his right eye at the time from what we saw and from what Kisame said after Tobi opened his eye:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see links

So what I'm wondering about is, if Tobi has the same eye tech as Shisui's right eye in his right own right eye, then why did he try taking Shisui's eye from Danzo? Was he after Shisui's eye for that overpowered genjutsu? Or was he after it for another reason like say for example, EMS?

I don't think he needed EMS, since he knew he could take the Rinnegan at any time. What he really wanted, I think, is the KA because it was more powerful than his tech and given that he's made up of Hashirama cells, the KA re-activation time would be reduced by a lot less. That way he'd have 2 of the most powerful eyes.

P.S Thanks everyone!