You keep forgettinb that he can instantly fuse with mama and papa frog and that way, use the Sage Mode. Also, sage mode apart, Jiraya can summon some heavy backup with the Kuchiose jutsu to assist him the battle. But as I said, Jiraya is stronger than Kisame, of that I have no question, but who would win the fight would depend on many variables, one above all - Kishi's will.
Misconception; Jiraiya > Kisame and Jiraiya=/> Itachi
- Thread starter Blaze Release
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yuan of cruxis
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Blaze Release
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He cannot instantly fuse with ma and pa. It takes long for that to happen. As for the summoning techniques. those would have little effect and infact put jiraiya ad a disadvantage if he decided to use sm because depending on the size and number of his back up could take up more than half of his chakra. Sm requires a large chakra reserve in order to balance it out with natural energy. If jiraiya was to spam summonings his chakra reserve would diminish quickly therefore possible not allowing him to use sm and this is why i believe he withheld from summoning more back up against pein and kept it at 1 instead.
I would get into greater detail when i create the thread.
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Are you trying to said it's easy to go Sage Mode against 3 of Pain's bodys? I very sure if Jiraiya can go Sage Mode against Pain that he can go Sage mode against Kisame.Jiraiya isn't afraid to run or hide until he can enter SM, he also has 3 powerful summons that beat Pain's summon. Jiraiya can stay on a toad to enter SM , also he can use collaboration jutsu with Gamabuta (oil/fire) to attack and Kisame's water wouldn't be strong enough to completely block it just like how Kakashi's fire jutsu wasn't able to bock Kakuza's fire+wind.
You forgot that Kakashi had no knowledge on Tsukuyomi or MS at that point of time, he only knew what Itachi told him plus how dangerous Itachi was. You forgot Tsunade healed both Sasuke and Kakashi or else they wouldn't have gotten better as they did. They both were in coma and only woke up from Tsunade. Kakashi is a genius but he doesn't have the same analyzing skills as Minato had shown let alone what Itachi had shown so you can't say Kakashi would know if Tsukuyomi would have killed him or not. He could have thought a genjutsu that was said to only be breakable by a true Uchiha would have killed him but a lot of what Itachi said in part 1 were lies to further his goals
Blaze Release
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First of all jiraiya went sm against animal real only. Only when did he achieve sm did nagato summon 2 more paths. He was using 1/6 of his power which allowed jiraiya to get into sm. You also seem to forget that the environment was ideal for sm. In most environments we have seen there isnt a place to hide. Save youself this argument for when i create the thread and fully explain what i mean, because currently i just do not want to say alot
Still doesnt mean that what kakashi said is untrue. Also seem to forget that itachi has used tsukuyomi on sasuke before tsunade and sasuke recovered as normal. At the highlighted part is possible, but who knows
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Uchihas with Big Guns
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You do remember Jiraiya has earth element right? Earth>Water. We only saw Jiraiya go all out against Pain and that's without knowledge, he has knowledge on both Itachi and Kisame. The fact is Jiraiya does have a large chakra reserve (Pa said large chakra reserve was needed to learn SM so the natural chakra doesn't overcome them as they learn to balance it.) and can summon Gamabuta to be his legs as he gathers natural chakra. Gamabuta's high jumps and agility can handle Kisame's water style.
1st Itachi never planned on killing Sasuke just toture him or else he would have killed him after using Tsukuyomi. 2nd the ways Itachi attack them were different, Sasuke was attack mentally (seeing his parents killed over and over)while Kakashi was attacked physically (being stabbed over and over) in Tsukuyomi. I also remember Tsunade asking Kabuto how he was still alive after being hit with the rasengan and Kabuto said it's because he started to heal himself before being hit. It's the same for Kakashi asking why he isn't dead except not being told the jutsu don't kill since he thought it. Itachi loved Sasuke but didn't really care for Kakashi the one person Itachi showed friendship toward was Naruto and only after hearing how much he care about Sasuke.
Jiraiya has a large chakra reserve, learning SM requires it so you don't get overcome with natural chakra while learning to balance it. Jiraiya has more than Naruto infact, remember when Jiraiya made that mud swamp (only had30% of his power) that was huge yet he called it small for only having 30% of his power. Imagine a fully powered Jiraiya using the same jutsu, this would prevent Kisame from attacking him for while. Jiraiya needs time to gather natural chakra then use this chakra to summon Ma and Pa toad, he can summon one of them to shorten the time required then go into SM and summon the other one.
Blaze Release
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You do remember Jiraiya has earth element right? Earth>Water. We only saw Jiraiya go all out against Pain and that's without knowledge, he has knowledge on both Itachi and Kisame. The fact is Jiraiya does have a large chakra reserve (Pa said large chakra reserve was needed to learn SM so the natural chakra doesn't overcome them as they learn to balance it.) and can summon Gamabuta to be his legs as he gathers natural chakra. Gamabuta's high jumps and agility can handle Kisame's water style.
1st Itachi never planned on killing Sasuke just toture him or else he would have killed him after using Tsukuyomi. 2nd the ways Itachi attack them were different, Sasuke was attack mentally (seeing his parents killed over and over)while Kakashi was attacked physically (being stabbed over and over) in Tsukuyomi. I also remember Tsunade asking Kabuto how he was still alive after being hit with the rasengan and Kabuto said it's because he started to heal himself before being hit. It's the same for Kakashi asking why he isn't dead except not being told the jutsu don't kill since he thought it. Itachi loved Sasuke but didn't really care for Kakashi the one person Itachi showed friendship toward was Naruto and only after hearing how much he care about Sasuke. /QUOTE]
Dude i told you to save your argument for when i create the thread. As i said im saving most of what i have to say to for that thread therefore im only showing you half hearted arguments. Btw you do know that kisame is also an earth element user right?. Not to forget depending on the class of the ninjutsu it can overpower its weak element.
Jiraiya does have a large chakra reserve. But if he does spam toads like the previous guy said, it would greatly decrease his chakra level, depending on the size and quantity of the toads. Ill explain in more detail. Most likely create the thread on saturday. Thinking about creating it on wednesday because im free then but thats when the latest chapter gets released therefore, it wouldnt have the impact i want it to. Maybe even friday
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TheSages456
Active member
i see what your saying, but just because a person has more feats doesnt make them the winner. the 4th hokagae for example is a undeveloped character to us but he would beat alot of characters alive today for example.
Also being confident doesnt grant a win. Naruto was confident in every battle he fought in, i dont see the undefeated title in his hands.
And, i would still hold my ground that kisame would not beat jairya. Itachi on the other hand who is stronger than kisame could make a stalemate. Pain said himself that if jairya knew his secert he might have won. which against pain is a high praise. As it took bee, itachi and naruto to beat pain with full knowledge of his secrets. One thing which doesnt make sense was how was itachi able to see the hell king when only the person whos soul is being taken can see it.
Also being confident doesnt grant a win. Naruto was confident in every battle he fought in, i dont see the undefeated title in his hands.
And, i would still hold my ground that kisame would not beat jairya. Itachi on the other hand who is stronger than kisame could make a stalemate. Pain said himself that if jairya knew his secert he might have won. which against pain is a high praise. As it took bee, itachi and naruto to beat pain with full knowledge of his secrets. One thing which doesnt make sense was how was itachi able to see the hell king when only the person whos soul is being taken can see it.
You can interpret the written words, sentences and the resultant action differently but when you claimed a scene where clearly Kisame didn't block Jiraiya even a single time and in fact was effectively rendered useless, you lost credibility-real fast. Not to forget that you were already pushing it when you were trying to convince everyone about Kisame's actions and words being at 180 degree based on your personal bias but no support in manga.
Kisame even asked Itachi why it was necessary for him to retreat. Kisame was not counting on himself but Itachi at that point.. Now the scene from here can be interpreted differently-one can believe that whatever Itachi's motives he was really not in a position to fight with Jiraiaya at that time or may believe that Itachi would have tried if he really wanted to take jiraiya on.
As for more back up and result being the same-That part is iffy. I sense something was lost in translation but that's my interpretation and opinion . (if you get my drift)
Now, different people may feel differetly about it. The best option in such scenario is agree to disagree and move on to another section of manga because there is really no correct side. Only Kishi can confirm what he had in his mind- if he wishes to ever. As far as I am concerned it doesn't even matter. I already believe that Itachi was a good shinobi and not a traitor. I don't need further evidence to jutsify him.
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lswhyte123
Active member
This. BTW, Blaze, this is essentially what you've done. You may seem to be unbias but all of your comments are your interpretations on the scenes and you need to say so. You are just assuming based on what you want to hear.
Basically, Kisame was rushed and wanted to flee away with Itachi. Without his bac-up, Itachi, he didn't seem willing to fight. Also, Jiraiya looks pretty confident here, I assume Jiraiya knows plenty about these two and probably knows what the outcome would be. That's my assumption though.
People will never listen to what they don't agree with. What's worse though, is when someone makes a thread that is one-sided and tries to give off a certain point of view without simply stating that that is their opinion. This thread took a lot of effort but fails in the fairness to all area.
Baka Sennin
Active member
sorry, but that's just a poor argument and not up to your usual standards at all.
you based a hefty bit of your argument on the fact that itachi and kisame were not crapping their pants at the sight of jiraiya when they used nothing but respect when talking about him to each other.
first off, you contradicted yourself with the oonoki part. a person can show someone respect, like oonoki did, and believe they are out of their league, but still challenge them, even though they have little hope of succeeding. like kakashi did with orochimaru.
secondly, Orochimaru respected Hiruzen and recognised him as a superior opponent, as evidenced by his words to anko, to hiruzen, and the fact that he summoned two kage to help him out in the fight. That he mocked Hiruzen means absolutely nothing, villians are always cocky and arrogant.
which brings me to my main point. Why do you expect that Itachi, who faced Kirin and Chibaku tensei without batting an eyelid, would cower in fear at the sight of Jiraiya? It's just not going to happen. Even if he does regognise Jiraiya as a superior opponent, which I think he does, he is not going to show any emotion or fear. He turned his back to Jiraiya because Jiraiya allowed ~Sasuke to try and defeat Itachi. And because he had no intention of fighting Jiraiya in the first place, which is why he used Tsukuyomi so freely. But just because he never meant to fight, does not mean that his praise of Jiraiya is invalid.
Kisame, when has he ever shown any fear? He's probably the most proud and cocky Akatsuki, the only person who he shows great respect to is Itachi. He's made fun of Tobi, Deidara, the zombie bros, Gai,Asuma, Bee and everyone else he's met. It's his nature to make fun of his opponents. and again, there's no shinobi of that level who would run away like a chicken at the sight of a better opponent, except for Kabuto.
edit: while we're talking about confidence, Jiraiya was more than confident about taking on Itachi and Kisame at once. should we infer from that that Jiraiya>Kisame+Itachi?
you based a hefty bit of your argument on the fact that itachi and kisame were not crapping their pants at the sight of jiraiya when they used nothing but respect when talking about him to each other.
first off, you contradicted yourself with the oonoki part. a person can show someone respect, like oonoki did, and believe they are out of their league, but still challenge them, even though they have little hope of succeeding. like kakashi did with orochimaru.
secondly, Orochimaru respected Hiruzen and recognised him as a superior opponent, as evidenced by his words to anko, to hiruzen, and the fact that he summoned two kage to help him out in the fight. That he mocked Hiruzen means absolutely nothing, villians are always cocky and arrogant.
which brings me to my main point. Why do you expect that Itachi, who faced Kirin and Chibaku tensei without batting an eyelid, would cower in fear at the sight of Jiraiya? It's just not going to happen. Even if he does regognise Jiraiya as a superior opponent, which I think he does, he is not going to show any emotion or fear. He turned his back to Jiraiya because Jiraiya allowed ~Sasuke to try and defeat Itachi. And because he had no intention of fighting Jiraiya in the first place, which is why he used Tsukuyomi so freely. But just because he never meant to fight, does not mean that his praise of Jiraiya is invalid.
Kisame, when has he ever shown any fear? He's probably the most proud and cocky Akatsuki, the only person who he shows great respect to is Itachi. He's made fun of Tobi, Deidara, the zombie bros, Gai,Asuma, Bee and everyone else he's met. It's his nature to make fun of his opponents. and again, there's no shinobi of that level who would run away like a chicken at the sight of a better opponent, except for Kabuto.
edit: while we're talking about confidence, Jiraiya was more than confident about taking on Itachi and Kisame at once. should we infer from that that Jiraiya>Kisame+Itachi?
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