Misconception; Jiraiya > Kisame and Jiraiya=/> Itachi
- Thread starter Blaze Release
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lswhyte123
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I will read more later but for now, well done on a very long winded thread with some good points.
No1: Kisame is said to have no emotions. Thus he won't feel any fear,or at least won't show it as he never does.
No2: Itachi knows of Jiraiya and knows he isn't the type to hit someone when their back is turned.
No3: If they weren't scared at all, they would have attacked. It was their mission and they are meant to be BA.
I see what you were trying to do though. But Itachi & Kisame knew that they would not beat Jiraiya fast enough, and that while fighting, more support would turn up and beat them.
No1: Kisame is said to have no emotions. Thus he won't feel any fear,or at least won't show it as he never does.
No2: Itachi knows of Jiraiya and knows he isn't the type to hit someone when their back is turned.
No3: If they weren't scared at all, they would have attacked. It was their mission and they are meant to be BA.
I see what you were trying to do though. But Itachi & Kisame knew that they would not beat Jiraiya fast enough, and that while fighting, more support would turn up and beat them.
Blaze Release
Active member
Fair enough. When i do create whiy i believe itachi > jiraiya you can tell me the reasons then. U_U
Blaze Release
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Kisame is said not to have no emotions?, manga chapter please. Secondly what are you talking about in the highlighted part.
Thirdly this is in relation to your No3. Kisame asked itachi why they had to retreat. And he said and i quote ' for you' and itachi intervened and gave him an excuse. Going by his first sentence when he said 'why is a retreat necessary', its clear that if he had finished his second sentence, it wouldve been for you couldve captured him (naruto) or defeated jiraiya or something along those lines. After all in order capture naruto he wouldve had to defeat jiraiya
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I lost interest reading the very first argument about Kisame's angle. That's a bunch of twisted reasoning and weired assumptions about how should Kisame have acted.
I had already pointed out the your flawed understanding of the scenario about Kisame blocking Jiraiya in another thread. SMH
You better go back to reading manga. Really this repost of the same argument which has been already blasted once is really futile and pointless.
What next should I go back and repost how many mistaks you were making deliberately or not when describing that scene?
You really want to argue for Itachi? Come up with smething better than this. I don't think Jiraiaya would be the winner for sure but if you have to resort to this lavel of argument you are making him look like one.
I had already pointed out the your flawed understanding of the scenario about Kisame blocking Jiraiya in another thread. SMH
You better go back to reading manga. Really this repost of the same argument which has been already blasted once is really futile and pointless.
What next should I go back and repost how many mistaks you were making deliberately or not when describing that scene?
You really want to argue for Itachi? Come up with smething better than this. I don't think Jiraiaya would be the winner for sure but if you have to resort to this lavel of argument you are making him look like one.
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lswhyte123
Active member
I cannot find any proof but seem to recall something along those lines. I was under the impression it was something the mist did to kill the emotions of the ninja. But by killing all his comrades he may have gotten rid of them too, much like Sai. I have no reference material though.
Itachi would surely have known something about Jiraiya being a Konoha Shinobi and double agent. I think so anyway, he seemed well aware of who he was.
I'm not too fussed about this topic atm and will probably come back to it. Good effort on the lengthy thread though. BTW I agree with what Tschuki said. This thread of yours clearly has a one-sided perspective and taints things. Don't make a thread based on assumption only. Use actual back-up.
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Blaze Release
Active member
At the highlighted part, by who?. I read the Op's reply and he didnt come up with anything good therefore i didnt reply because i said in my original post that this will most likely be my last reply in that thread.
About the whole scenario, if you go back to that chapter, jiraiya looked directly into itachi's eyes (forgot to mention this). What is to say, he couldve used tsukuyomi that very moment and captured naruto. Instead of using it on sasuke.
Anyway the whole point of this thread was to state that just because a character has said something, shouldnt be brought into vs threads or taken absolute U_U
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WTF are you talking about? 10 minutes? he dont need sage mode to deal with kisame. you better take a good look at your post when jiraiya summon the frogs stomach kisame is helpless. what more if jiraiya fights. jiraiya used sagemode only with PAIN because its obvious that pain is more powerfull than kisame or itachi.
AND STOP THIS """""LOOK AT KISAME'S DISTANCE TO JIRAIYA IF HE IS AFRAID BLAH BLAH BLAH""""" HOW COULD KISHI DRAW IN A BETTER WAY IF HE WILL DRAW IT TOO FAR FOR YOUR TASTE OF THAT DISTANCE. THAT IS A MANGA FOR CHRIST SAKE THEY WILL BECOME ANTS IF HE DREW IT TOO FAR :flaw:
Blaze Release
Active member
At the highlighted part, sage modes takes alot longer than kisame's upgrade. Secondly look at the techniques that kisame has shown (two in particular) which he didnt show in part 1, which could possible allow him to escape that technique. Needless to say im just brushing the surface of things right now, id go into more detail when i create the kisame > jiraiya thread U_U
I disagree with some of you logic, Kisame isn't going to act scared infront of the enemy would he, neither would Itachi. They were talking about a full fledge fight, when they all met up their misson was to capture Naruto, not engage into a fight that can possibly kill Naruto from one of the many powerful blows that would be exchanged. About the praising part, Kabuto praised Naruto's strenght in the Chunin exam but was talking down to him when all Sannins were present, clearly Kabuto was stronger but Naruto still beat him (note he would have died if Tsunade didn't heal him). Naruto always use to talk a big game rather he can back it up or not, Naruto had doubts about beating Neji but was saying how he'll win. You make it sound like Kisame can't hold Jiraiya off for a while, it's not Jiraiya would beat him in 5 seconds. Plus Kisame knew Jiraiya would protect Naruto in the fight so where do you think Kisame would be aiming at? Itachi wasn't planning on fighting Jiraiya for the reasons he said plus his main life goal is to make Sasuke strong enough to beat Tobi. Jiraiya wouldn't leave Naruto and an injuried Sasuke to chase after Itachi and Kisame, he wouldn't know if that was their plan to separate him from Naruto again. Plus you seem to forget 3 years have past since their last meeting with Jiraiya and just like how Naruto, Sasuke, Gaara, ect... gotten stronger they would have to. You never thought Itachi and Kisame could have gotten stronger in the 3 years? Itachi gotten stronger from 13 (when Sasuke was 7) to when he was 18 (Sasuke was 13). They both could have gotten stronger to the point of having more confidence in their abilities. Orochimaru and Jiraiya had different fighting styles and wouldn't fall for the same thing as the other would or would react differently. The Sannins were in their mid to high 20's and in the first Naruto series they were 50, they have gotten stronger in the 20-30 years. Orochimaru couldn't even fight the Hiruzen on his own, he had to summon 2 of Konoha's greatest ninjas to fight him. It was said if Hiruzen was 10 years younger he would have won, but that's how Orochimaru is, he taunts you in your face and thinks something else to himself. like against Naruto he was saying how much stronger Sasuke is than Naruto but when Naruto was in 4 tails he thought if he was hit with the tailed beast bomb he would die but that didn't stop him from taunting Naruto. Evev after the fight when he was thinking how weak he is getting from his sickness, he acts fine infront of Sai. For all we know Kisame could have learned to fuse with Samehada in the 3 years time skip and Itachi could have found the sword and mirror around the same time. Jiraiya have been training Naruto for 2 1/2 years, not training himself so it can be said pre-time skip Jiraiya>Kisame/Itachi and post-time skip Jiraiya=Itachi/Kisame (since he still has Sage Mode, without it he has lower chances). Also it should be noted Jiraiya knows how to go Sage mode in a fight, especially fighting against Pains bodys. Jiraiya fought and killed 3 of Pains bodys (kage level), if he knew Pain's secret he would have pulled out the 3 Pains he killed chakra receivers and destroyed them. Then he wouldn't have been surprised attack and either fight the other 3 bodys or use one of the Chakra receivers to find Nagato and fight him. Frog song on Nagato would stop the 3 bodys too since Nagato would be able to control them. That is what Pain's praise is ment to mean, it Jiraiya knew his secret the whole fight would of happened differently or at least the 2nd half of the fight.
:rofl: jiraiya doesnt need sage mode to beat kisame. where are you getting that speculation???? he cant scape that stomach "THATS WHY ITACHI SACRIFICED HIS DETERIORATION OF HIS EYES TO SAVE THEIR ASS" if itachi knew that kisame got some way to get out of there why would ITACHI used Amaterasu when it will take a toll on him in every use! my god you've got 5000+ post and your still an ***** i dont know what your mom feeds you when you are a child :shrug:
Blaze Release
Active member
Agreed with most part of your post. Also agree that kisame and itachi most likely were stronger in part 2 than in part 1 although in itachi's case as its been said he prolonged his illness therefore you can argue that part 1 itachi couldve been stronger than part 2 itachi because his illness mustve gotten worse as time passes. We dont know long kisame to learn how to fuse with samahada, nor do we have any clue about at what age itachi found his weapons.
The only real part i disagree with was when you talk about jiraiya vs pein. Just because somebody knows of your weakness doesnt mean they would win a fight. It just gives them an advantage, whether they can take this advantage or not is up in the air. Or do you believe if ten ten knows pein's weakness he can defeat him?. I mean naruto and konoha pretty much had enough info on pein and yet look at what he did to them.
Jiraiya said, the real one isnt there. That was nagato's secret. If jiraiya was to know this secret from the start and have gone for nagato instead, the paths obviously wouldnt just sit there, they would protect nagato from jiraiya and i cannot see jiraiya defeating all 6 paths. Note that we didnt even see half of the paths abilities against jiraiya. We didnt see human realms, abilities and the same can be said about deva realms.
Finally nagato clearly said it was a praise for his former sensei and nothing more. Anyway the way every time i see in a vs thread containing jiriaya and kisame and people just going by what kisame said, is what partly led me to create this thread
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Blaze Release
Active member
First of allow me say its true the internet allows anonymity, but lets not play the fool.
Anyway if you believe jiraiya doesnt need sm to defeat kisame, then thats your opinion. Im sure most people would say other wise. As for you saying kisame cannot escape the frog stomach, as ive said he has shown two techniques in part 2 which could possibly, but also the environment in which the confrontation took place allowed jiraiya to use such a technique. Finally Itachi was ahead of kisame, therefore its logically to say he wouldve used his techniques instead.
Maybe what you are saying could be right, if kisame was the one closer to the exit and waited for itachi to use amaterasu
Blaze Release
Active member
So what exactly does that prove?. Who was ahead of who?
If anything, jiraiya had great confidence in that technique and in that same scene look what happened
Bigfoot34501
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Simply put, I agree Itachi+Kisame>Jiraiya. Whether or not Jiraiya is better than one of those two 1v1, I do not know. I feel that there was only two reasons why Itachi and Kisame retreated:
1. Itachi was a good guy: this was the biggest reason why Itachi and Kisame retreated. Itachi didn't want to kill one of the most powerful shinobi Konoha had right after Oro killed Hiruzen just to keep his cover
2. A battle against Jiraiya would have been unfavorable in that location; that's because the anbu were in the area searching for Itachi and Kisame. If those two got into a large scale battle with Jiraiya, it would have surely attracted attention. A drawn out battle with Jiraiya just wasn't the smartest thing to do in that situation. So instead of fighting Jiraiya and waiting for the reinforcements to arrive, he decided to be smart and retreat. Using tsukuyomi twice and amaterasu once proved that Itachi was not looking for a fight, he just wanted to talk to Danzou and get the hell out of there. Fighting Jiraiya and hordes of Konoha shinobi was never part of the plan
-Broly-
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You cant be serious that bubble he.had bee in was bigger than a forest even his biggest frog.summon gamabunta isnt that big so if kisame,used that in the frogs stomach he wpuld burst out
I'm not saying Jiraiya would have won just that if he had the info Naruto and konoha had before going into battle then the fight would have gone differently. It was 1 Pain to 3 Pains to 6 Pains, I can see Jiraiya making a shadow clone to distract Pains bodies with long range attacks and hiding while Jiraiya go to Nagato, the bodys wouldn't know until either they catch the clone or until Jiraiya reach Nagato. Jiraiya was able to run and hide when he needed to, Naruto couldn't lol As for Itachi's illness, I agree but from what we seen in part 1 Itachi was tired out after 3 MS jutsus but used his MS more against Sasuke (I know he was also pushing himself to his limits in the fight), maybe his medicine allowed him to withstand his training? Not hard core training but enough to increase his chakra reserves or he got better medicine to allow him to fight better against Sasuke. Regardless if Itachi fight a full battle that pushes him to his limits then his sickness will kill him and using his MS jutsus cause further damage to him with his disease and is weaken more with each use. Itachi could had ment he would die from his disease+MS effects and Kisame dying from Jiraiya.
P.S don't you think if Jiraiya was in sage mode and Kisame absorbed his chakra with Samehada that either one or both of them would turn into stone like one of Pain's body? also Jiraiya can turn whoever he wants into a frog with the needed hand signs.