Misconception: Itachi > Jiraiya

Gutsy

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I have to agree, Jiraiya and Itachi are equals, Jiraiya's weakness is genjutsu and Itachi... well we all know and both won't fall easily.

Jiraiya and Itachi can both take this.... Though it needs specific location, knowledge and conditions for the battle for the other to win in my opinion... though if they are both given great location and conditions, it can go either way... since they are both epic.

I don't go froms stats or what is said, but Itachi clearly stated he could only make a draw with Jiraiya, also Pein stated that Jiraiya would have won if he knew of his secret.

Not going out from it, they are both Epic.

Jiraiya = Itachi
 

Zato

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Well I thought it obvious in this Ninja War ark that Kishi it trying to imply that Itachi = Nagato thus teaming them together because of their abilties. I think Kishi wanted Itachi sick for obvious reasons but one of them is so that we could never see his true potential, the exact same way Nagato was placed under (even though Nagato wasn't sick he was handicapped hardcore when he was alive) until Edo. It's just because of how their characters are. The only "real" fight we have ever seen Itachi in is vs Nagato. So you can see the similarities Kishi made with Itachi and Nagato thus I'm sure he meant for them to be equal when it comes to Sasuke and Naruto gaining their new abilities. Remember that Sasuke said to equal Naruto after Naruto's fight with Pain. This was stated by Tobi and Zetsu. Which is funny because Tobi states that Sasuke was stronger then Pain.
 

Turson

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I wouldn't say it mainly came fro his MS. He was pretty damn powerful on his own. And he was planning on losing to Sasuke (which you certainly know) so him training would do absolutely nothing in regards to Sasuke since he wasn't even going to try and win.
Itachi was just stronger if anything when he was 19, thats all Im saying.
I don't think he would have been any more hesitant to kill Jiraiya
Even though he was overstating Jiraiyas strengh by saying that even two Akatsuki squads wouldnt be able to take him out?
Not necessarily.
Itachi + Kisame + Sasori + Deidara = Jiraiya baing raped.
Itachi + Kisame + any other Akatsuki squad = Jiraiya being raped.
Jiraiya wasn't even fighting the Animal Path.
Becuase he couldnt. In order to gather natural energy one have stay still. Thats why he was struggling to activate SM while fighing only Animal path. Itachis battle capacity is far greater. Not to mention that Itachi can bind any backup Jiraiya would summon.
Erm, Jiraiya's base speed is rated at 4.5 and Sage Mode gives a dramatic boost to a Sage's entire repertoire.
Sasuke was able to keep up with A who had Raiton armor level1 activated.
Wow. and Itachi relies on his Sharingan too much.
Amd thats why he takes this. Sharingan owns summons Jiraiya relies on.
and you're underestimating the Elder Toads.
I dont. Sharingan was able to take control over Manda, king of snake summons with 3 tomoe Sharingan. MS controlling powers are much greater, not to mention that it binds summons via Genjutsu, and Itachi is superior in that to his brother.
Heck the Amphibian technique they were using would have made them and Jiraiya immune to genjutsu since their chakra is constantly being disturbed by taking in natural energy.
With their chakra flow disturbed all the time they wouldnt be able to use any technique.
 

Turson

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And I jsut re-read the chapters where they were with Jiraiya, and Kisame said nothing and indicated no surprise that they were retreating.
-> No wonder, though. Itachi couild easily take down Jiraiya with Amaterasu in that tight corridor if he wanted to.
 
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Viewtiful

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Not necessarily my opinion when their feats and abilities says otherwise. What kisame said is no different to what pein or zetsu said. All was in praise, nothing more.

Feats says it all.

Seems like people take praise too seriously.
When they did finally meet tell me, was kisame scared?. Is he not the one who blocked jiriaya for itachi to beat the crap out of sasuke. Isnt this the same person who praised jiraiya. Action speaks louder than words

Why would he run? They already distracted Jiraiya. When he showed up, all he did was tell Jiraiya not to interfere. Then they ran when he summoned that Toad's stomach to their location.

Itachi was just stronger if anything when he was 19, thats all Im saying.
Possibly true, just depends on the extent of of his Susanoo prowess at the time (if he had the weapons and its full form.)

Even though he was overstating Jiraiyas strengh by saying that even two Akatsuki squads wouldnt be able to take him out?
He didn't necessarily mean two squads, and even if he did, like I previously said, he may have meant that they couldn't kill Jiraiya with reinforcements.

Itachi + Kisame + Sasori + Deidara = Jiraiya baing raped.
Itachi + Kisame + any other Akatsuki squad = Jiraiya being raped.
Depends on who else was added and how many.

Becuase he couldnt. In order to gather natural energy one have stay still. Thats why he was struggling to activate SM while fighing only Animal path. Itachis battle capacity is far greater. Not to mention that Itachi can bind any backup Jiraiya would summon.
Should I also mention that Fukasaku said that Jiraiya wasn't planning on fighting, just pursuing information (though I've no clue if that extended to battle). Struggling to activate Sage Mode doesn't indicate anything about skill. o.o It's a weakness in the transformation, not the wielder. Bind? You're referring to genjutsu not the Contract Seal right? Again, I fall back on the fact that the process of taking in natural energy would negate any genjutsu, since it disturbs your chakra since you're adding a new dimension to it.

Sasuke was able to keep up with A who had Raiton armor level1 activated.
So? Jiraiya's speed is rated the same as Sasuke's at 4.5, putting him in the same range. The addition of Sage Mode bolsters that. Admittedly, I wasn't thinking properly when I said "make up for", but having the Sharingan doesn't make them able to avoid or keep up with anything.

Amd thats why he takes this. Sharingan owns summons Jiraiya relies on.
Depends on the Summon. The Elder Toads would be more or less immune to genjutsu when using the Amphibian technique.

I dont. Sharingan was able to take control over Manda, king of snake summons with 3 tomoe Sharingan. MS controlling powers are much greater, not to mention that it binds summons via Genjutsu, and Itachi is superior in that to his brother.
Read what I said above this quote. Manda doesn't have the ability to draw on natural energy to make himself immune to genjutsu like they do.

With their chakra flow disturbed all the time they wouldnt be able to use any technique.
I think you misunderstand what I mean by "disturbed". It means that it isn't the static. Genjutsu, as described throughout the series, only works on an opponent whose chakra flow is smooth, which is why disturbing it can break it. B demonstrated that if you have an external source to disturb or alter your chakra when one is cast on you, you become immune to all genjutsu.
 
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Turson

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He didn't necessarily mean two squads, and even if he did, like I previously said, he may have meant that they couldn't kill Jiraiya with reinforcements.
Well, he had Kisame with him. And Akatsuki travells in pairs, sop if they had backup it would be at least one more squad.
Depends on who else was added and how many.
Whoever they were, combined with Itachi and Kisame they would destroy Jiraiya. Badly. Even if they were Kakuzu and Hidan, considerably the weakest Akatsuki squad.
Should I also mention that Fukasaku said that Jiraiya wasn't planning on fighting, just pursuing information (though I've no clue if that extended to battle).
That doesnt change the fact that Pain forced Jiraiya to fight, and Pain was too powerful for Jiraiya to take this easy.
So Itachi would be able to keep up with Jiraiya, eye him with MS and execute Amaterasu.
Read what I said above this quote. Manda doesn't have the ability to draw on natural energy to make himself immune to genjutsu like they do.
Frogs dont draw natural enrgy all the time. If they were, they wouldnt be able to use any technique.
 

Nadream

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I totally agree with you about jiraiya and itachi being equal however i'd like to answer the question:

Why did Itachi and Kisame go after Naruto?

They both went after naruto purely on a political basis to protect sasuke. As you may know, itachi did what he did for the sake of the leaf village but when he was told to assassinate his brother he refused, therefore as a deal itachi said that the leaf village must protect sasuke, remember this was in the time of the 3rd hokage. Eventually the 3rd hokage died and tsunade came in, therefore to state in an indirect way itachi had to prove that he is well and alive by infiltrating the village and show that the deal of protecting sasuke must remain. so he attached naruto and made a big situation out of it to confirm his presence.
 

Blaze Release

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Why would he run? They already distracted Jiraiya. When he showed up, all he did was tell Jiraiya not to interfere. Then they ran when he summoned that Toad's stomach to their location.
Why did they run?, kisame himself asked itachi the same question and itachi made an excuse.

Anyway ive showed you that action> words
Action, feat, abilities>>>>>>>> words.

When jiraiya finally showed up neither kisame or itachi was fazed and if you go back kisame mocked jiriaya right in front of him. Before he held blocked him with confidence. This doesnt seem like the actions of somebody who is scared. All he did (and many characters have done this) is pay respect for a sannin or somebody who has been praised prior to what their meeting
 
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Pain omen

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i saw what i expected to see in this thread.

good arguments for itachi based on feats.
bad arguments for jiraya based on only hype statements and databook stats lolololol.

no seriously the itachi vs jiraya debate has gone on far too long.
ill end with this

a 13 year old itachi was able to 1 shot jirayas equal in under 1 minute with out the mangekyou sharingan. id like to see jiraya try to fight on par with oro without sage mode.

 
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Viewtiful

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Why did they run?, kisame himself asked itachi the same question and itachi made an excuse.

Anyway ive showed you that action> words
Action, feat, abilities>>>>>>>> words.

When jiraiya finally showed up neither kisame or itachi was fazed and if you go back kisame mocked jiriaya right in front of him. Before he held blocked him with confidence. This doesnt seem like the actions of somebody who is scared. All he did (and many characters have done this) is pay respect for a sannin or somebody who has been praised prior to what their meeting
When did I say he was scared of Jiraiya (hint: I didn't). Kisame never said that either. He just said he couldn't win. And actually, it goes a little something like this:

What characters believe about there own abilities >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>what you can speculate about. that goes for everyone.

Why would anyone else's beliefs on something trump what the characters themselves say, given they know the full extent of their abilities? If Itachi believes that, why would any of us be right in saying that isn' true?
 

Turson

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What characters believe about there own abilities >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>what you can speculate about. that goes for everyone.
Im sorry, but Itachi was putting a lot of bullshit in what he was saying at that time. Who would be believe that Jiraiya would be able to face and draw against four (or more) Kage level shinobis, Itachi being one of them. Hence, they are very, very poor proof.
 

Pain omen

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When did I say he was scared of Jiraiya (hint: I didn't). Kisame never said that either. He just said he couldn't win. And actually, it goes a little something like this:

What characters believe about there own abilities >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>what you can speculate about. that goes for everyone.

Why would anyone else's beliefs on something trump what the characters themselves say, given they know the full extent of their abilities? If Itachi believes that, why would any of us be right in saying that isn' true?
no blaze release was right and he wasn't spectulating spectulating is when you give characters power ups they don't have.

for example minato has sage mode. minato has other techniques


feats > hype.

alsways and thats why jiraya is weaker
 

Blaze Release

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When did I say he was scared of Jiraiya (hint: I didn't). Kisame never said that either. He just said he couldn't win. And actually, it goes a little something like this:

What characters believe about there own abilities >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>what you can speculate about. that goes for everyone.

Why would anyone else's beliefs on something trump what the characters themselves say, given they know the full extent of their abilities? If Itachi believes that, why would any of us be right in saying that isn' true?
You didnt necessarily say he was scared but the base of your argument is what kisame said and thats about it. Pretty weak argument if you ask when, if we look at their feats and abilities.

Nothing but praise for the sannins, thats what kisame said. That doesnt mean he cannot defeat a sannin. Tell me wht exactly is a sannin. Kisame has more impressive feats than any of the sannins. If a character says something, its either to hype the opponent or pay respect.
 

Viewtiful

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You didnt necessarily say he was scared but the base of your argument is what kisame said and thats about it. Pretty weak argument if you ask when, if we look at their feats and abilities.
If what a character says cannot be taken then we might as well not believe anything that has been said at all. Your logic seems fun to go by. :)

Nothing but praise for the sannins, thats what kisame said. That doesnt mean he cannot defeat a sannin. Tell me wht exactly is a sannin. Kisame has more impressive feats than any of the sannins. If a character says something, its either to hype the opponent or pay respect.

Kisame said "Someone like you might be able to go up against him(not a Sannin, he was referring specifically to Jiraiya), but he's on another level compared to me". Kisame's words trump your, regardless of if you think feats > hype. that wasn't even hype in the sense that it was unfounded praise, as he simply said he couldn't beat Jiraiya.
 

Pain omen

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i swear all jiraya has is hype he never lived up to

hype that he could beat both itachi kisame + backup team lol infact itachi would most likely solo him

hype that he could beat pain. with out feats to back up this hype

none
 

Pain omen

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also jiraya despite his glorious hype never actually defeated a single character in the manga.

while itachi had allready acomplished more in 13 years of living than jiraya did in his whole life. legendary fail
 

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It's obvious, that Itachi is stronger. Itachi don't even need his Mangekyo Sharingan, he will handle Jiraiya before he goes into the Sagemode. Common, how people can think that Jiraiya is equal to a high level Mangekyo Sharingan user? Fail.
 

Blaze Release

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If what a character says cannot be taken then we might as well not believe anything that has been said at all. Your logic seems fun to go by. :)




Kisame said "Someone like you might be able to go up against him(not a Sannin, he was referring specifically to Jiraiya), but he's on another level compared to me". Kisame's words trump your, regardless of if you think feats > hype. that wasn't even hype in the sense that it was unfounded praise, as he simply said he couldn't beat Jiraiya.
Ill be repeating myself therefore this is what ill leave you with.
How does kisame know exactly that he cannot defeat jiraiya, even though he said this. The answer is he doesnt. He hasnt seen jiraiya in action i bet nor has he faced him. Its all rumour, hype and respect for a sannin which lead him to say this
 

Pain omen

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agreed with the above

if jiraya was to try and fight itachi in his base form no sage mode.
he would get the same foderrizing treatment orochimaru got from a 13 year old itachi

a genjutsu to paralyze and a kunai to slice hands if he tries to break out.
 

Viewtiful

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i swear all jiraya has is hype he never lived up to

hype that he could beat both itachi kisame + backup team lol infact itachi would most likely solo him

hype that he could beat pain. with out feats to back up this hype

none
Not beat them, just make it a draw. And that could just as easily mean not dying against them. Itachi never said the stalemate was in regards to him winning.
Here we go, I got the Naruto Wiki's translator's literal translation of what was said by Itachi and Kisame:


Kisame: "He's an opponent you might somehow be able to beat, but for me, I don't know… He's a different level." (「アナタならどうにかこうにかやれる相手でも私じゃあ分かりませんよ…次元が違う。」, "Anata nara dō ni ka kō ni ka yareru aite demo watashi jaa wakarimasen yo… Jigen ga chigau.")

Itachi: "Yeah… If we were to fight him, we might both be killed. If things go well, it might become a tie. this probably won't change if we were to increase our numbers." (「ああ…やり合えば二人共殺されるか。良くて相打ちというところ…たとえ人数を増やしたとしても変わらないだろう。」, "Aa… yariaeba futaritomo korosareru ka. Yokute aiuchi to iu tokoro …Tatoe ninzū o fuyashita toshite mo kawaranai darō.")

Kisame: "It was good that we finally found him at the ramen shop, but… his babysitter is of those 'Legendary Three Shinobi'. With him as our opponent, even the names of Konoha's Uchiha clan and Kiri's Seven Shinobi Swordsmen would be overshadowed." (「ラーメン屋で やっと見付けたはいいが…お守りが あの"伝説の三忍"とは。彼が相手では"木ノ葉のうちは一族"も"霧の忍刀七人衆"の名もかすんでしまう。」, "Rāmenya de yatto mitsuketa wa ii ga… Omori ga ano 'Densetsu no Sannin' to wa. Kare ga aite de wa 'Konoha no Uchiha Ichizoku' mo 'Kiri no Shinobigatana Shichininshū' no na mo kasunde shimau.")

Itachi: "Yeah… But…" (「ああ…しかし……」, "Aa… Shikashi……")

Kisame: "…" (「………」, "………")

Itachi: "No matter how strong a person is, he will have a weakness…" (「どんな強者にも弱点というのがあるものだ……」, "Donna kyōsha ni mo jakuten to iu no ga aru mono da……")


If you disagree, well then that's fine by me, as I'll have to stick with what is said by the characters themselves about how strong they believe they are...
 
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