Wishful thinking? Not making any sense? Try proving something for chance? Hahahaha, funny troll.. NOT!
Your and NaruGoku theory revolves around the simple fact that Tobi is using Madara's name and his story. Everything else you both try to prove is just wishful thinking. Try proving something for a change.
P.S. I was right. You are dumb. You can't even understand simple things. Don't reply to me, I don't want to argue with idiots who can't even think for themselves. You are being spoon feeded by Kishi with ploys intended to throw the reader off the track .
"Hey guys - TV said that Egypt is going to bomb us, this must be truth. TV never lies!"
Blah blah. All you can do is accuse people of being stupid and funny or repeating something they've said and TRYING to turn it against them lmaooo
That last example of yours is completely off and retarded. Doesn't apply here at all.
You haven't made out a single point that would prove your theory to be a stronger possibility than mine or NvsG's. As I said you pretend to know what Kishi is doing and you basically say "it could be like that 'cause I want it to be and this is Kishi's original intention but I have nothing to back it up"
That's your personal interpretation. I do not see him being sure of ID - just that he thought there was some link between the masked guy and Madara; that they may or may not be the same person and that Minato simply had no time to wonder about it nor he tried much.
You are right it doesn't prove or disaprove anything.- nor did I try either. It's narutovsgoku making the attempt not me dear.
And this shows that Tobi isn't Madara...how? ..irrelevant points and they don't really shake your argument (or EMS's for that matter) to any direction. imo we have go to with the facts right now.
That's your personal interpretation. I do not see him being sue of ID - just that he thought there was some link between the masked guy and Madara and that they may or may not be the same person and that Minato simply had no time to wonder about it not he tried much.
You are right it doesn't prove or disaprove anything.- nor did I try either. It's narutovsgoku making the attempt not me dear.
Yeah I know you didn't try.. I just replied to you 'cause EMR was quoting your post.
You just said it doesn't prove or disapprove anything and OP counted it as one od the proofs to support his theory. U_U I am not the one giving any argument. I am the person saying this one is not good enough.:
hmm, what?.. NvsG counted this "MInato simply didn't played the "who is behind the mask" game for long. After the initial curiocity - probably to decide what to expect from his opponant and to have an idea about hs skills he simply went ahead by the info based on his observation right in that battle. " as a proof that says Tobi is Madara?...I really don't get what you're saying, 'cause that's not something relevant in this matter. But whatever, I was just making EMR realize his own stubborness.
Yeah I know you didn't try.. I just replied to you 'cause EMR was quoting your post.
hmm, what?.. NvsG counted this "MInato simply didn't played the "who is behind the mask" game for long. After the initial curiocity - probably to decide what to expect from his opponant and to have an idea about hs skills he simply went ahead by the info based on his observation right in that battle. " as a proof that says Tobi is Madara?...I really don't get what you're saying, 'cause that's not something relevant in this matter. But whatever, I was just making EMR realize his own stubborness.
As I said you pretend to know what Kishi is doing and you basically say "it could be like that 'cause I want it to be and this is Kishi's original intention but I have nothing to back it up"
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. You do the exact same thing, fool. Keep selfowning yourself, bro. Your whole theory is wishful thinking.
Kishi officialy disproved it with last 2 chapters, yet you still hold to it.
He is throwing us off track. The same way Kishi was annoucing Tobi to be Madara all the time, even making side comments like "What will Madara do" "What is Madara's goal" when addresing Tobi. The mask on Tobi's face is there for a reason. There's a whole team of writters working on this story and they make it so we are kept in suspense, ever wondering about the true nature of Tobi. But hey, why am I even telling you this, you can't even figure out why Minato thought it could only be Madara who attacked the Leaf.
Yeah it's your quote 'cause I said that what you said: "MInato simply didn't played the "who is behind the mask" game for long. After the initial curiocity - probably to decide what to expect from his opponant and to have an idea about hs skills he simply went ahead by the info based on his observation right in that battle. " ---> doesn't prove or disaprove anything and you said NvsG counted it as evidence. So I was like whaat. As it was on the chapter's page he linked but I doubt he counted that sentence as a proof dude! : D ...the point of that page was not that. So totally irrelevant and I dunno why we're talking about this.
You avoided 95% of my post and you notice one line i overlooked, what a douchebag you truly are.
And i avoided it because its bull, Onoki heard him.....he was just around at that era, he never said 'snap, that sounds like the madara from my childhood'.
Yeah and Minato also said to naruto AFTER that that the 'masked man' was
behind the 9 tail attack.....he did'nt say madara was behind the attack, why? You see unlike you i'm not pulling this outta my ass, and actually have facts to back up what i say, i don't just spew random bullshit like a fanboy who's butt hurt cuz the manga proved him wrong.
Onoki wasn't just around, he fought Madara remember? So it's highly likely that he can make a difference between Madara's voice and someone elses voice.
No Minato didn't say that but isn't it kinda obvious after the first statement?.... : D
Now you're getting upset dude, I'm not making anything up so just leave that old flaming tactic. No fanboys here. Don't be mad
You really aren't arguing properly with my points, just accusing me fanboy and hinting that my points uses their value as I didn't addres your whole "novel".
And you think i'm embarassing myself...? You should just hide in shame after having been clearly pwned not just by me but by EMR and even Isthatnecessary as a neutral person can clearly see that you don't know jack about this argument and look above at the bolded, look at what you said, i disproved it completely.
NarutoVsGoku: I was'nt talking to you in that last post, have patience i'll reply to you.
Are you crazy? It took 2 kages and Naruto to get him vulnerable for RasenShuriken. If he's anything like Tobi then he probably could have used Izanagi or something. The thing is he didn't need to with Rinnegan.
Now he's just backed a whole fleet into a corner with his overpoweredness. Sasuke with his MS could probably take on one Kage. Sasuke was getting raped by Oniko, and that hot breath woman. Tobi had to save him.
We didn't see all of Madaras eye powers, only Sasuno.
Everyone on the battlefield is tired and out of chakra, EMS madara wouldn't have survived Naruto's attack since he needed reningan to absorbe it. Ems madara is just not that strong . plus this edo has been overpowered by kabuto
the similarity in what they say about nagato is undeniable. i know you are smart and logical cyborg and you even admit you cant deny the connection. nothing shows madara gave nagato rinnegan but it would all fall into place like a jigsaw puzzle if tobi is madara.
madara gains rinnegan.
madara gives rinnegan to nagato
madara is tobi
tobi takes rinnegan back
that sequence would validate that tobi said "i took back what was rightfully mines."
would that sequence validate it? yes or no? please answer that for me.
tobi was in the mist village manipulating the mizukage. idk how he wouldhave found out about an uzamaki living in the rain village. i wont attempt to even try to explain how he came upon nagato because there is nothing i can base my assumption on. nothing yet in the manga tells how nagato and tobi/madara became aquainted. but the manga suggests that madara/tobi and nagato HAVE been aquainted and it implies that probably when nagato had his first rinnegan experience..
agree or disagree?
of course many others knew of rinnegan and sage but it was only deemed as a myth or legend. jiraiya at first did could not beleive he was witnessing the sage's doujutsu. but your assuming tobi would have wanted what he did not have. when you just said earlier that you wouldnt argue that tobi gave nagato the rinnegan....
wood release and/or sharingan are needed to control kyuubi or any tailed beast for that matter.
not just any senju becasue hashirama is the only senju known to have controlled kyuubi and this is implied due to his wood release.
tobi noted that danzo had sharingan and wood release/hashirama dna and his goal was to control kyuubi. but fact is Danzo never controlled kyuubi and in fact it was an issue for danzo to even control hashirama powers.
yamato... do i even have to go there?
now on the sharingans.
Madara and Tobi are the only ones known to have ever controlled kyuubi with sharingan. itachi said madara was the only one. kyuubi only recognizes madaras sharingan and power. when being controlled by tobi, kyuubi recognized it!
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kyuubi only and always talk about madaras sinister chakra and eye powers. and he saw tobi and recognized him. but who else could tobi be if madara is the only one who has controlled kyuubi with sharingan and kyuubi recognized tobi when tobi did it?
be logical..
my response above applies to this as well..
i will add:
nothing proves that itachi was flawed in saying that he sought out madara and found him. nothing disproves that. and what proves it is the sake that it was said. it is part of the dialogue, part of the story.
he clearly did know that madara was somehow alive. and tobi validates this and says that itachi knew he was alive and found him.
sage controlled tailed beasts is a given.. did you really want me to list sage of 6 paths too? he is the ancestor of both senju and uchiha and only the strongest of both clans were able to control kyuubi and you expected me to list sage? did i really have to list sage? really?
"this is not impossible for a tough ninja to do" by saying that after mentioning sage you are implying that tobi is in leagues with the sage of 6 paths himself? im going by context here and this is what you are implying........
wtf?!?!? lol what are you basing this on?!?!?
invalid based on invalid comment above..
technically he didnt lie at all. during child birth the seal of a jinchuriki is severly weakened and theres is a great chance that the bijuu can be released. this is a natural phenomena. kyuubi being released during kushinas birth was an expected natural disastor.
but indeed tobi did leave out the important fact that he instigated this natural disaster. but a natrual disaster it was.
fallacy man. you assume because he was dishonest about kyuubi attack that in conclusion he is dishonest about his identity. in fact him lying about his identity is not proven or disproven until his identity is identified!!!...sir!
what i know is that everything tobi has said has been validated by another character in the manga. i do not believe but i know that you know that this is fact.
you ask a question which i already provided answers to. and you know the answers thats why you later on ask about them....
what was the point of asking when you know the techs.
oh i am sorry. for a second i imagined that inazagi was a jutsu that allowed the user to make imagination into reality. or bend reality. or even create the uncreated or unimaginable... sorry i was deeply mistake...
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yes i explain that the last chapter disproves tobi being madara but everything that tobi has done till now proves that he is madara. and if tobi is to be anyone he is most likely madara. how? nobody but madara would be able to perform inazagi. how? fact is madara survived his fight with hashirama (said by tobi and validated by kabuto) and gained hashirama cells (said by tobi and validated by kabuto and edo madara). inzagi makes anything possible
but again this could be explained by madara using muu's splitting techinique which i will admit is a stretch but plausible because madara has fought onoiki in the past and probably muu too for that matter and just copied his splitting tech. this is a big ass stretch but more plausible than tobi being anybody else but madara.
and also theres other possiblities like madara sealed parts of his chakra or soul in another body before he died. i know he was revived by edo tensi but edo tensi doesnt even disprove this possibility on accound of other events that has happened in the manga. minato sealing part of himself and kushina in naruto before death. or muu splitting himself. half of him is sealed and the other is by madaras side. or the fact that zetsu splits himself all the time! if black zetsu died do you think white would die as well?
wow fallacy! you are assuming zabuza and asuma are lesser than fugaku and kagami and izuna! what are you basing that on? all of the ninjas revived were either famous or notorious for their skills. but izuna, fugaku and kagami not being revived does not allude to them being tobi. it could be that kabuto did not obtained their dna. would you conclude that shisui, danzo, the white fang and konan are or could be tobi because they were not revived but "lesser ninjas" were?
that sentenced was flawwed logic!
you are NOT wrong for coming to this conclusion but the possibility of tobi being a split or a madara manifestation is possible due to inazagi and a plethera of crazy ass jutsus that madara could have performed before death.
you ignore many times in the manga where a part of someone has been restored while the other part has been destroyed or sealed. countless times this has occured in naruto and you ignore it. just as like those countless times, its possible that part of madara was revived while the other part is tobi..
and if not than disprove me and give me a manga link or pic...
obviously....
no but it can indicate that they are.
lol and you base this on what?!? just wishful thinking?
"fake Madara" has the word "Madara" in it..
"our" refers to madara and tobi being 2 entities but this doesnt disprove them having once being one entity at one time.
nothing says anything about half a soul or something. and nothing disproves that inazagi was the cause. all i am saying is that if tobi is anybody that madara is the best possibility based on tobis knowledge, witnesses and actions. there are ways that make it possible for tobi madara and edo madara to co exist by inazagi, splitting, or sealing techs. there has been many cases where someone was destroyed or sealed had a part of themselves in another place. examples muu, minato, kushina, zetsu, naruto, shadow clones, hashirama cells, orochimaru and his cells, orochimaru arms, hachibi's tentacle was cut off and sealed in the gedo mazo and kingin kyuubi chakra was sealed in gedo mazo and the little bit of hachibi and kyuubi chakra are being used to fuel gedo mazo. i am not saying this is all definite. all i am saying if tobi is anybody he is most likely madara. based on what i said to support my claim am i wrong? invalid? are my arguements sound and logical? do i sound like a freaking noob? am i using the manga to back up my claims or just talking out of my ass?
Stop quoting parts of my post, its annoying and breaks the flow of what you're saying. Now, i'll be very thorough, please listen carefully and impartially to what i say and i will take my time with this post and address every angle of this issue after i reply to your post. This may prove to be a lengthy read so buckle up(no, its gonna be veeerrrryyy long, i promise you that but i'll back it all up.)
Well first of all that sequence of events is tempered by the simultaneous existence of the masked man, who has claimed in the manga to be Madara and the appearance now of a man who is definitely Madara. This much, is beyond dispute for any sane person. And if it validates, in your eyes that Tobi is Madara then how does the real Madara also possess the rinnegan? Is that a coincidence? I think not. Let me remind you of one very important fact, prior to the last 3 chapters it was a HUGE mystery as to how in hell did Tobi manage to acquire the rinnegan which he gave to Nagato in the first place?
And here's where it gets interesting: the power of the senju and the uchiha, plus the unique power of Madara with his EMS, and Madara's power alone, is what enabled him to awaken the rinnegan eye in himself. But Tobi also has the power of the uchiha and the senju, and if he had the power of Madara, if he were Madara, he should have been able to awaken rinnegan himself!! He would'nt have needed to go to Nagato at all!!! I know what you're going to say, he first awakened it once, gave it to Nagato got some new sharingans and cannot repeat this action. My answer: Bull(sry) !! Madara said so himself in the last few mangas himself that he awakened the rinnegan towards the end of the fight with the first hokage, and now he's awakened it again meaning it can be done multiple times.....but to do it you have to be, ..........wait for it........MADARA!!
The mist village part and how Tobi and Nagato met was'nt what i was pointing out in my previous post. Please at least answer the point that i was making, and it had nothing to do with what you have just said on this point here. What i said was that the real Madara, the one who got resurrected, how it would have been possible for him to have known about Nagato. I said that this was possible as he did not die at the valley of the end but in fact lived on and it may have been possible for him to have lived on with the help of the 1st hokage's cells until the time when Nagato was around.....the details of that meeting are unknown and it was'nt even sth i tried to address smh.
Just because Danzo did'nt control the kyuubi does'nt mean he could not have . You're now contradicting yourself here. In your first post you said Tobi never lies and now you forget that it was Tobi who said this :
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So Tobi says he can control the kyuubi, so your argument that the fact that Danzo did'nt control the Kyuubi meaning he cannot do it is wrong and is disproved right there.
About the sharingans. The power of the 9 tails chakra, was supposed to have belonged only to the jinchuriki or to no one else. Yet the Kin Gin brothers possessed it all the way upto the 6 tails....Just because kishi has'nt told of anyone using the uchiha + Hashirama powers to tame the kyuubi other than Madara does'nt mean it can't be done. I already linked the page above where Tobi clearly says that uchiha and hashi powers can tame the kyuubi. I know you will now link Itachi's statement that only our eye powers can control the kyuubi, well he was wrong as you have yourself admitted that everything Tobi said was true and he said that about the taming of the Kyuubi bit. Itachi made several flaws, and also remember he said he was surprised to know that Naruto could control the kyuubi :
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He says i never thought you'd advance so far.....meaning Itachi clearly did not expect that naruto, a non uchiha would be able to tame the 9 tails, which he obviously did.
This argument was in case you now decide to quote Itachi out of context here.
And kyuubi being released from Kushnina was expected....? Wtf lol are you trying to troll me now? Really? Try saying this to yourself and think about it, think before you type. That's just total bullshit and you have to be retarded to actually believe it. There's just no damn way the Kyuubi would have attacked Konoha had tobi not instigated it. Minato would have sealed it even if during childbirth the seal broke. There would'nt have been the attack that Tobi mentioned to Sasuke as being a 'natural event' which caused a lot of blame to fall on the uchiha. Even a 6 year old kid can see the obvious situation here that Tobi was lying so that Sasuke won't know that it was he who was responsible for the uchiha's falling into disrepute by causing the 9 tails attack that laid the groundwork for the uchiha's later persecution and the planned rebellion and assassination that followed of the clan.He was trying to win Sasuke over to his side. Are you really that dumb that you cannot comprehend this simple fact? You're just justifying what you're saying without any logic whatsoever and are acting stubborn and dogmatic. Try to display more common sense and do not ignore the obvious.
And for the love of God, stop leaving like 3 empty lines after every 1 line you type to make your post look bigger-_-
There is a lot of difference from person to person who uses the technique as far as Izanagi is concerned. You maintain that Tobi is nowhere near the level of the Sage of the 6 Paths, and you also say that Tobi is in fact, Madara. Then please explain to me just how the **** its possible that Madara who is nowhere near the Sage's level is able to do what only the Sage could, i.e give form to nothingness. But according to your theory, Madara has exceeded the Sage, as he not only gives form to nothingness but breathes life into it as well. In your theory, Madara is a God. Its ironic that this 'God' is now reduced to being a puppet of Kabuto, Oro's right hand man and Sasori's former spy. lol. Seriously dude, you're not looking at this straight and i'm not the only one saying that either. All your points just scream Tobi=Madara fanboy. That's the truth. Have you forgotten that the only time we know of that even the Sage of 6 Paths used Izanagi he did'nt actually make something or someone from thin air, but in fact he used the chakra of the 10 tails, which already was in existence and whose jinchuriki he had made himself, and he split up that chakra to make 9 different tailed beasts. Its not really something out of nothing. I know what Tobi said in the manga, but unlike you i don't believe he's some kind of demi God who's words are infallible and i believe he did'nt give the correct explanation for the working of the Izanagi jutsu. When has anyone ever in history made something, let alone somebody , from nothing using just Izanagi? That makes no sense whatsoever.
Now i'm seriously starting to think you're just trolling away here. Did you just say 'nobody but madara would be able to perform izanagi..'? Are you high? Or have you not read the whole manga so as to say that? Do i really have to go and explain to you that the tech Danzo used while fighting Sasuke is called Izanagi? Reaally now, someone needs to get their head examined. You've just been completely exposed, what you just said there is total garbage and it just points to just one thing: you're completely ignorant, have not even bothered to read the whole manga and are really just pulling things out of your ass. Sorry to go down this hard on you but this is in fact what you are actually doing. Danzo used izanagi, anyone with freaking uchiha powers and senju dna can perform Izanagi and you're telling me that Madara is the only one who has ever performed Izanagi ......your argument=epic fail
Actually this is really fun, i don't even have to do anything you just keep pawning yourself by making statements that are invalid and the exact opposite of whats been shown in the manga. All i have to do is point it out, lol. And read my above paras to see why Izanagi does'nt make just anything possible. Oh, and please try to think logically while you're at it. And that's only your own opinion that Muu's splitting technique is more plausible than Tobi not being Madara. For starters, he's been resurrected by IWR which can only be done to people who are dead.....name one, just one shinobi who's ever been resurrected via IWR, yet they were also alive at the same time and even before the IWR jutsu was cast...? None exist who meet this criterion. You have evidently taken leave of your senses in making this theory, then lost all remaining semblance of sanity by arguing back. Now you're just raging ' Tobi is Madara cuz i'm that theories number 1 fanboy'!!! Really, knock some sense into yourself. None of your arguments are valid. They also pay no heed to what has been shown in the manga, your just saying whatever bullshit hits you at the spur of the moment. That's the definition for bad trolling, not serious discussions. On at least 2 occasions now you have stated things to be fact that were in total contradiction to what has been said in the manga. For example, next you say minato sealed a part of himself here, and then there. Well was Minato resurrected by the Impure World technique? No, he was'nt. Was any damn ****ing shinobi in the history of Naruto, who was sealed in their lifetime(before dying, so gtfo with your fail Muu argument) EVER brought back by IWR? I said this before and i'll say this again: its just not possible and your arguments are'nt fooling me or anyone with half an intellect. Oh, oh , oh and btw that other half is'nt really Muu, its a deception and a fake, like Bee did when he made his tentacle appear to be his whole self while fighting Sasuke. Not that it even really matters in this context, it would have if Muu's one split half were alive, then the other half were resurrected by IWR.
And here:
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Kabuto says the 'bunshin' was sealed, Bunshin means clone, like shadow clone or similar, its not something which holds your soul or can survive while the original is dead. The clone can be sealed and the original will survive, yes, but its impossible for the clone to survive once the original is dead in any bunshin technique. So Madara, the original could not possibly still have been alive in the form of his clone Tobi once his original self had died.So that disproves your ridiculous fantasy of Madara using a technique like Muu's. Try harder, cuz right now you're completely failing.
And no shit i'd say Izuna's a thousand times stronger than Asuma and Zabuza....he had the Mangekyuo Sharingan, Shisui had the ultimate sharingan genjutsu that even a prodigy like Itachi has praised, the Doryuku of his, have you forgotten how Danzo controlled Mifune w/o even exposing the eye of Shisui? And Konan being Tobi is a lot more logical than this parade of BS as a sorry excuse for a theory that you have given of him being Madara, despite all the obvious evidence from the manga to the contrary. And you keep going on and on about Tobi being the shit, stop tossing the salad with him! Unbelievable.
Such as...? I have already proven to you beyond all reasonable doubt that no 'crazy ass justu' even exists that can do what you claim has happened with Tobi being Madara even though Madara's soul was'nt in him....that's the definition for not being him. Aaargh, your points have so much stupidity and ignorance it makes my head spin.
Like what, or when? All the examples of the so called 'countless times' this has happened in the manga i have individually explained to you are utter bullshit so stop running your ****ing mouth with this nonsense. You're just a fanboy who's either too stubborn or too stupid to accept that their wrong and nothing they say makes any Goddamn sense. I mean, fake madara has the word 'madara' in it so that proves Tobi is Madara...? GTFO.
None of the examples in your last para make any sense as they don't apply to this situation in any way whatsoever, but your just too stubborn to accept this obvious fact. But enough about this nonsense and flaming. Now lets move onto why Tobi is NOT Madara, backed up by these simple points:
1. Why does Tobi wear a mask? There's really no need for this. And don't compare Kakashi or Shino. Neither covers the whole face like Tobi does. You can only see the sharingan eye on Tobi's mask(and now the rinnegan) you cannot the other features like you can with Kakashi and Shino.
2. If its part of the character to just wear a mask like Kakashi as you say, then why is it in the flashbacks Madara's full face is shown, and also now when he's been resurrected the whole face comes into view? He should wear the mask all the time, Kakashi always wore a mask even in kakashi gaiden yet if Madara is Tobi then why did former Madara in youth not wear a mask and why does the current one do it...?
3. Why does Kabuto say to Tobi, what he says here:
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'Anyway, you can relax i have'nt told a soul'. This, in light of the recent manga to back it up, totally rubbishes all Tobi=Madara claims. Why would Kabuto say i have'n told a soul to Tobi? Think about that. If Tobi is Madara what use is that? If i were Madara, i would'nt give a damn about that statement, or even that coffin. I would'nt be shocked, id be relieved, ah here's my other half, i'd sneer and snap at kabuto and force him to give me control over that body right there and then via the same genjutsu he used on the mizukage.
Instead, what does Tobi actually do? He gets shocked, the kind of shock only an imposter who is a fake and knows it would have.
P.S: I know you annoying ass Tobi=Madara noobs are know going to show the next page, even though it does'nt actually support you but you might interpret it that way so i'll do it first:
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Yes, Kabuto calls him Uchiha Madara here, but Tobi than says 'Wise guy..' why would Tobi say that if he were well and truly Madara?
4. Why does the masked man Tobi always refer to himself in third person, as if he were talking about somebody else? Like the page where he says: My power, Uchiha Madara's power.
5. First, understand the secrets behind edo tensei to know what comes next, and how and why it proves Tobi is not Madara. I'll use a simple approach and give links from the manga to prove my very obvious point.:
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Those are the basics about the technique, such as the soul being called back from the pure world to this, the impure world.
But its the next page that really takes a shit in the face of these Tobi=Madara nonsense:
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'If the soul has been sealed elsewhere....they CANT be resurrected'. So if Madara's soul was sealed somehow into Tobi, then Madara should never have been resurrected. Its as simple as this. Yet sadly, some people just refuse to listen to reason.
6. The evidence from the recent manga. After point number 5 has been established, any normal sane person would simply accept that Tobi is not Madara after seeing this thrown in his face by kishi:
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As if that were not proof enough, there's more still to come.:
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Madara obviously talks about Tobi here, yet whats incredibly funny is that not only do all Tobi=Madara fanboys ignore the fact that Madara calls Tobi 'him', but notice that Madara, according to you people, despite being Tobi, does'nt even know what's on his own mind.LMAO!!!!xd The very second Madara came back he should have been able to form a mental link with Tobi like Shikaku has with the shinobi army, this is obvious if they are somehow magically the same conscience.
7. None of the current kages believe that Tobi is Madara, proven when Tsunade says we were all played for suckers, though they should have had some suspicion and would very likely have known if there were some technique which allowed Tobi to be Madara and Madara to be resurrected at the same time.
The fact is, that this idea of Tobi still being who he claims is bullshit.
8. And finally, here in the last manga Madara says 'our plan' rather than 'my plan' which is what he should have said if Tobi were just his other half.
Then Kabuto calls Tobi the 'fake Madara'.:
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I don't know if this finally convinces the people who are acting like noobs in believing Tobi's still Madara, but i had to give it one exhaustive, thorough go. If you, NarutoVsGoku or anyone else does'nt reply to this, i don't care. Because i certainly won't be making any replies after this one.
Stop quoting parts of my post, its annoying and breaks the flow of what you're saying. Now, i'll be very thorough, please listen carefully and impartially to what i say and i will take my time with this post and address every angle of this issue after i reply to your post. This may prove to be a lengthy read so buckle up(no, its gonna be veeerrrryyy long, i promise you that but i'll back it all up.)
Well first of all that sequence of events is tempered by the simultaneous existence of the masked man, who has claimed in the manga to be Madara and the appearance now of a man who is definitely Madara. This much, is beyond dispute for any sane person. And if it validates, in your eyes that Tobi is Madara then how does the real Madara also possess the rinnegan? Is that a coincidence? I think not. Let me remind you of one very important fact, prior to the last 3 chapters it was a HUGE mystery as to how in hell did Tobi manage to acquire the rinnegan which he gave to Nagato in the first place?
And here's where it gets interesting: the power of the senju and the uchiha, plus the unique power of Madara with his EMS, and Madara's power alone, is what enabled him to awaken the rinnegan eye in himself. But Tobi also has the power of the uchiha and the senju, and if he had the power of Madara, if he were Madara, he should have been able to awaken rinnegan himself!! He would'nt have needed to go to Nagato at all!!! I know what you're going to say, he first awakened it once, gave it to Nagato got some new sharingans and cannot repeat this action. My answer: Bull(sry) !! Madara said so himself in the last few mangas himself that he awakened the rinnegan towards the end of the fight with the first hokage, and now he's awakened it again meaning it can be done multiple times.....but to do it you have to be, ..........wait for it........MADARA!!
The mist village part and how Tobi and Nagato met was'nt what i was pointing out in my previous post. Please at least answer the point that i was making, and it had nothing to do with what you have just said on this point here. What i said was that the real Madara, the one who got resurrected, how it would have been possible for him to have known about Nagato. I said that this was possible as he did not die at the valley of the end but in fact lived on and it may have been possible for him to have lived on with the help of the 1st hokage's cells until the time when Nagato was around.....the details of that meeting are unknown and it was'nt even sth i tried to address smh.
Just because Danzo did'nt control the kyuubi does'nt mean he could not have . You're now contradicting yourself here. In your first post you said Tobi never lies and now you forget that it was Tobi who said this :
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So Tobi says he can control the kyuubi, so your argument that the fact that Danzo did'nt control the Kyuubi meaning he cannot do it is wrong and is disproved right there.
About the sharingans. The power of the 9 tails chakra, was supposed to have belonged only to the jinchuriki or to no one else. Yet the Kin Gin brothers possessed it all the way upto the 6 tails....Just because kishi has'nt told of anyone using the uchiha + Hashirama powers to tame the kyuubi other than Madara does'nt mean it can't be done. I already linked the page above where Tobi clearly says that uchiha and hashi powers can tame the kyuubi. I know you will now link Itachi's statement that only our eye powers can control the kyuubi, well he was wrong as you have yourself admitted that everything Tobi said was true and he said that about the taming of the Kyuubi bit. Itachi made several flaws, and also remember he said he was surprised to know that Naruto could control the kyuubi :
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He says i never thought you'd advance so far.....meaning Itachi clearly did not expect that naruto, a non uchiha would be able to tame the 9 tails, which he obviously did.
This argument was in case you now decide to quote Itachi out of context here.
And kyuubi being released from Kushnina was expected....? Wtf lol are you trying to troll me now? Really? Try saying this to yourself and think about it, think before you type. That's just total bullshit and you have to be retarded to actually believe it. There's just no damn way the Kyuubi would have attacked Konoha had tobi not instigated it. Minato would have sealed it even if during childbirth the seal broke. There would'nt have been the attack that Tobi mentioned to Sasuke as being a 'natural event' which caused a lot of blame to fall on the uchiha. Even a 6 year old kid can see the obvious situation here that Tobi was lying so that Sasuke won't know that it was he who was responsible for the uchiha's falling into disrepute by causing the 9 tails attack that laid the groundwork for the uchiha's later persecution and the planned rebellion and assassination that followed of the clan.He was trying to win Sasuke over to his side. Are you really that dumb that you cannot comprehend this simple fact? You're just justifying what you're saying without any logic whatsoever and are acting stubborn and dogmatic. Try to display more common sense and do not ignore the obvious.
And for the love of God, stop leaving like 3 empty lines after every 1 line you type to make your post look bigger-_-
There is a lot of difference from person to person who uses the technique as far as Izanagi is concerned. You maintain that Tobi is nowhere near the level of the Sage of the 6 Paths, and you also say that Tobi is in fact, Madara. Then please explain to me just how the **** its possible that Madara who is nowhere near the Sage's level is able to do what only the Sage could, i.e give form to nothingness. But according to your theory, Madara has exceeded the Sage, as he not only gives form to nothingness but breathes life into it as well. In your theory, Madara is a God. Its ironic that this 'God' is now reduced to being a puppet of Kabuto, Oro's right hand man and Sasori's former spy. lol. Seriously dude, you're not looking at this straight and i'm not the only one saying that either. All your points just scream Tobi=Madara fanboy. That's the truth. Have you forgotten that the only time we know of that even the Sage of 6 Paths used Izanagi he did'nt actually make something or someone from thin air, but in fact he used the chakra of the 10 tails, which already was in existence and whose jinchuriki he had made himself, and he split up that chakra to make 9 different tailed beasts. Its not really something out of nothing. I know what Tobi said in the manga, but unlike you i don't believe he's some kind of demi God who's words are infallible and i believe he did'nt give the correct explanation for the working of the Izanagi jutsu. When has anyone ever in history made something, let alone somebody , from nothing using just Izanagi? That makes no sense whatsoever.
Now i'm seriously starting to think you're just trolling away here. Did you just say 'nobody but madara would be able to perform izanagi..'? Are you high? Or have you not read the whole manga so as to say that? Do i really have to go and explain to you that the tech Danzo used while fighting Sasuke is called Izanagi? Reaally now, someone needs to get their head examined. You've just been completely exposed, what you just said there is total garbage and it just points to just one thing: you're completely ignorant, have not even bothered to read the whole manga and are really just pulling things out of your ass. Sorry to go down this hard on you but this is in fact what you are actually doing. Danzo used izanagi, anyone with freaking uchiha powers and senju dna can perform Izanagi and you're telling me that Madara is the only one who has ever performed Izanagi ......your argument=epic fail
Actually this is really fun, i don't even have to do anything you just keep pawning yourself by making statements that are invalid and the exact opposite of whats been shown in the manga. All i have to do is point it out, lol. And read my above paras to see why Izanagi does'nt make just anything possible. Oh, and please try to think logically while you're at it. And that's only your own opinion that Muu's splitting technique is more plausible than Tobi not being Madara. For starters, he's been resurrected by IWR which can only be done to people who are dead.....name one, just one shinobi who's ever been resurrected via IWR, yet they were also alive at the same time and even before the IWR jutsu was cast...? None exist who meet this criterion. You have evidently taken leave of your senses in making this theory, then lost all remaining semblance of sanity by arguing back. Now you're just raging ' Tobi is Madara cuz i'm that theories number 1 fanboy'!!! Really, knock some sense into yourself. None of your arguments are valid. They also pay no heed to what has been shown in the manga, your just saying whatever bullshit hits you at the spur of the moment. That's the definition for bad trolling, not serious discussions. On at least 2 occasions now you have stated things to be fact that were in total contradiction to what has been said in the manga. For example, next you say minato sealed a part of himself here, and then there. Well was Minato resurrected by the Impure World technique? No, he was'nt. Was any damn ****ing shinobi in the history of Naruto, who was sealed in their lifetime(before dying, so gtfo with your fail Muu argument) EVER brought back by IWR? I said this before and i'll say this again: its just not possible and your arguments are'nt fooling me or anyone with half an intellect. Oh, oh , oh and btw that other half is'nt really Muu, its a deception and a fake, like Bee did when he made his tentacle appear to be his whole self while fighting Sasuke. Not that it even really matters in this context, it would have if Muu's one split half were alive, then the other half were resurrected by IWR.
And here:
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Kabuto says the 'bunshin' was sealed, Bunshin means clone, like shadow clone or similar, its not something which holds your soul or can survive while the original is dead. The clone can be sealed and the original will survive, yes, but its impossible for the clone to survive once the original is dead in any bunshin technique. So Madara, the original could not possibly still have been alive in the form of his clone Tobi once his original self had died.So that disproves your ridiculous fantasy of Madara using a technique like Muu's. Try harder, cuz right now you're completely failing.
And no shit i'd say Izuna's a thousand times stronger than Asuma and Zabuza....he had the Mangekyuo Sharingan, Shisui had the ultimate sharingan genjutsu that even a prodigy like Itachi has praised, the Doryuku of his, have you forgotten how Danzo controlled Mifune w/o even exposing the eye of Shisui? And Konan being Tobi is a lot more logical than this parade of BS as a sorry excuse for a theory that you have given of him being Madara, despite all the obvious evidence from the manga to the contrary. And you keep going on and on about Tobi being the shit, stop tossing the salad with him! Unbelievable.
Such as...? I have already proven to you beyond all reasonable doubt that no 'crazy ass justu' even exists that can do what you claim has happened with Tobi being Madara even though Madara's soul was'nt in him....that's the definition for not being him. Aaargh, your points have so much stupidity and ignorance it makes my head spin.
Like what, or when? All the examples of the so called 'countless times' this has happened in the manga i have individually explained to you are utter bullshit so stop running your ****ing mouth with this nonsense. You're just a fanboy who's either too stubborn or too stupid to accept that their wrong and nothing they say makes any Goddamn sense. I mean, fake madara has the word 'madara' in it so that proves Tobi is Madara...? GTFO.
None of the examples in your last para make any sense as they don't apply to this situation in any way whatsoever, but your just too stubborn to accept this obvious fact. But enough about this nonsense and flaming. Now lets move onto why Tobi is NOT Madara, backed up by these simple points:
1. Why does Tobi wear a mask? There's really no need for this. And don't compare Kakashi or Shino. Neither covers the whole face like Tobi does. You can only see the sharingan eye on Tobi's mask(and now the rinnegan) you cannot the other features like you can with Kakashi and Shino.
2. If its part of the character to just wear a mask like Kakashi as you say, then why is it in the flashbacks Madara's full face is shown, and also now when he's been resurrected the whole face comes into view? He should wear the mask all the time, Kakashi always wore a mask even in kakashi gaiden yet if Madara is Tobi then why did former Madara in youth not wear a mask and why does the current one do it...?
3. Why does Kabuto say to Tobi, what he says here:
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'Anyway, you can relax i have'nt told a soul'. This, in light of the recent manga to back it up, totally rubbishes all Tobi=Madara claims. Why would Kabuto say i have'n told a soul to Tobi? Think about that. If Tobi is Madara what use is that? If i were Madara, i would'nt give a damn about that statement, or even that coffin. I would'nt be shocked, id be relieved, ah here's my other half, i'd sneer and snap at kabuto and force him to give me control over that body right there and then via the same genjutsu he used on the mizukage.
Instead, what does Tobi actually do? He gets shocked, the kind of shock only an imposter who is a fake and knows it would have.
P.S: I know you annoying ass Tobi=Madara noobs are know going to show the next page, even though it does'nt actually support you but you might interpret it that way so i'll do it first:
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Yes, Kabuto calls him Uchiha Madara here, but Tobi than says 'Wise guy..' why would Tobi say that if he were well and truly Madara?
4. Why does the masked man Tobi always refer to himself in third person, as if he were talking about somebody else? Like the page where he says: My power, Uchiha Madara's power.
5. First, understand the secrets behind edo tensei to know what comes next, and how and why it proves Tobi is not Madara. I'll use a simple approach and give links from the manga to prove my very obvious point.:
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Those are the basics about the technique, such as the soul being called back from the pure world to this, the impure world.
But its the next page that really takes a shit in the face of these Tobi=Madara nonsense:
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'If the soul has been sealed elsewhere....they CANT be resurrected'. So if Madara's soul was sealed somehow into Tobi, then Madara should never have been resurrected. Its as simple as this. Yet sadly, some people just refuse to listen to reason.
6. The evidence from the recent manga. After point number 5 has been established, any normal sane person would simply accept that Tobi is not Madara after seeing this thrown in his face by kishi:
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As if that were not proof enough, there's more still to come.:
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Madara obviously talks about Tobi here, yet whats incredibly funny is that not only do all Tobi=Madara fanboys ignore the fact that Madara calls Tobi 'him', but notice that Madara, according to you people, despite being Tobi, does'nt even know what's on his own mind.LMAO!!!!xd The very second Madara came back he should have been able to form a mental link with Tobi like Shikaku has with the shinobi army, this is obvious if they are somehow magically the same conscience.
7. None of the current kages believe that Tobi is Madara, proven when Tsunade says we were all played for suckers, though they should have had some suspicion and would very likely have known if there were some technique which allowed Tobi to be Madara and Madara to be resurrected at the same time.
The fact is, that this idea of Tobi still being who he claims is bullshit.
8. And finally, here in the last manga Madara says 'our plan' rather than 'my plan' which is what he should have said if Tobi were just his other half.
Then Kabuto calls Tobi the 'fake Madara'.:
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I don't know if this finally convinces the people who are acting like noobs in believing Tobi's still Madara, but i had to give it one exhaustive, thorough go. If you, NarutoVsGoku or anyone else does'nt reply to this, i don't care. Because i certainly won't be making any replies after this one.
Touche! This is a great post. You should edit it, fix your grammar, delete insults etc and make a thread out of it.
A post of such caliber deserves a thread of it's own.
P.S: I know you annoying ass Tobi=Madara noobs are know going to show the next page, even though it does'nt actually support you but you might interpret it that way so i'll do it first:
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Yes, Kabuto calls him Uchiha Madara here, but Tobi than says 'Wise guy..' why would Tobi say that if he were well and truly Madara?
This is actualy very simple. Kabuto was complimenting the real Uchiha Madara. If it wasn't for Madara then Tobi wouldn't let him in his team. I think it's pretty obvious but I guess someone thinks that Kabuto is actually refrering to Tobi :shrug:
P.S. I love how you already answer all the noob questions that these Tobi=Madara fanboys are gonna come up with. They are so predictable.
Madara said so himself in the last few mangas himself that he awakened the rinnegan towards the end of the fight with the first hokage, and now he's awakened it again meaning it can be done multiple times.....but to do it you have to be, ..........wait for it........MADARA!!
Madarasaid he awakenned rinnegan just before his death- and he didn't die during his battle with Hashirama. So he must have awakkenned rinnegan later on.
Manga 560 page 16.
Once awakenned he can use it on will whenever he wishes.
Hey NarutovsGoku, I always like your replies to posts, you make me laugh honestly (I don't mean laugh in a stupid way I mean laugh because your among one of the only intelligent posters on this board)
Eternal, you know I side with you and I too think it is the Elder Brother and I am going to use something that you corrected me on and I am going to ask NarutovsGoku it. NvG you might have said this somewhere down the line but to be honest I am on a couple of happy pills and I read a lot of this thread but skimmed through some stuff. Anyway here is the question.
I too once believed that Kisame and Itachi had saw Tobi's face and recognized him as Madara, BUT as Eternal pointed out to me once, and this goes ESPECIALLY for Kisame, Kisame could have seen Tobi when he was the Mizukage who claimed he was Madara and than saw him later and recognized the same face and was like oh okay it is Madara again. (If I didn't explain this well enough, I am sorry like I said I took a couple of happy pills ;p)
Itachi could have done the same thing but I don't remember anywhere it showing and/or saying that Itachi saw Tobi's face. If you could show me proof I will gladly recount this statement.
Also, I think it is pretty obvious that Edo Madara and Kabuto and whoever else has different plans from the "Fake Madara" AKA Tobi. Leading to why I think it is the Elder Brother. I mean think about how complex the Moon's Eye plan is to begin with. Everyone in the Narutoverse (at least I am 99% sure) thought that the So6P was a myth as Kakashi says. Obviously some people know different like Kabuto, Orochimaru, Madara, Tobi, etc...I mean just think about the Moon's Eye plan for a second. This plan would control the entire NARUTOVERSE. Madara from what we know only wanted revenge on Konoha, Tobi seems to want to control everything through STRENGTH and FORCE (NOTE: What the Elder Son believed were the keys to peace)
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"It's both for War...and Peace..."
Elder son wanted Peace through HIS WAY (see above), I don't think Madara wants anything close to peace.
You do convey a very good point that I hadn't realized, Minato does in a way admit that Madara had S/T Ninjutsu as shown on:
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But I think it is important to break down what Minato ACTUALLY says. "Can he use Space-Time Ninjutsu Too!?" Like every intelligent theory maker on this board, we all use words and sentences in the Manga and/or Episodes to portray these words and sentences in the best light that helps us with our theory. (If anyone needs that sentence explained to them, you suck and should not post on this board again ;p) But anyway I use and/or understand the aforementioned Minato quote as him not admitting that Madara can use S/T Ninjutsu, rather not knowing what that Jutsu was that he was almost sucked into and questioning if it was a S/T Ninjutsu because he isn't sure.
Overall though great post man, I definitely think it was well thought out and presented very well which is rare on this board seeing as how every "Tobi Is.." post goes something like this:
Me tink Tobi is Obito b/c u can't spell Obito without Tobi, just like der is no I in team, watz do u guyz tink? derrrrrpppppppp ehhh durrrrrrr.
And you think i'm embarassing myself...? You should just hide in shame after having been clearly pwned not just by me but by EMR and even Isthatnecessary as a neutral person can clearly see that you don't know jack about this argument and look above at the bolded, look at what you said, i disproved it completely.
NarutoVsGoku: I was'nt talking to you in that last post, have patience i'll reply to you.
okay really man..I was this whole time talking about the chapter where Minato asks Tobi "are you Madara" as he said "there's only one person I can think of..." ... AND THEN you bring in THAT link and say I'm bullshitting EVEN though that doesn't relate to me "bullshitting" anbody in any way! I already said to ITN that.
quote from Cyborg: "Yeah and Minato also said to naruto AFTER that that the 'masked man' was
behind the 9 tail attack.....he did'nt say madara was behind the attack, why?" YEAH DID OR DIDN'T SAY I already said to ITN that doesn't mean or prove jack shit. Of course he wasn't 100% sure 'cause Tobi is wearing a freaking mask. You're just desperate to prove your theory so you come up with quotes that actually don't mean anything but just makes you feel better about your own theory.
Fact is Minato asked Tobi if he's Madara so he STRONGLY believed him to be MORE than anything else. Get it? Minato believed Tobi to be Madara and no option was ahead in his list. So this is the fact that we'll go. One of the witnesses as NvsG said. He may have called him a "masked man" or said "it doesn't matter who is behind the mask" but again irrelevant, just Minato saying things that don't shake your argument one way or another. The question that he asked Tobi and that he said "only one person comes in my mind" is the strongest proof right now.
So don't think you're pwning me until you really are (that's impossible), 'cause you again made a fool out of youself and I pwned you for talking nonsense and irrelevant things, + also that talking gorilla guy.
And it's good you have your own different theory, but unlike you I'll just go with the stronger facts. Nothing you have said has made me change my mind, and I say that is a possibility if enough evidence moves your argument into better direction.
okay really man..I was this whole time talking about the chapter where Minato asks Tobi "are you Madara" as he said "there's only one person I can think of..." ... AND THEN you bring in THAT link and say I'm bullshitting EVEN though that doesn't relate to me "bullshitting" anbody in any way! I already said to ITN that.
quote from Cyborg: "Yeah and Minato also said to naruto AFTER that that the 'masked man' was
behind the 9 tail attack.....he did'nt say madara was behind the attack, why?" YEAH DID OR DIDN'T SAY I already said to ITN that doesn't mean or prove jack shit. Of course he wasn't 100% sure 'cause Tobi is wearing a freaking mask. You're just desperate to prove your theory so you come up with quotes that actually don't mean anything but just makes you feel better about your own theory.
Fact is Minato asked Tobi if he's Madara so he STRONGLY believed him to be MORE than anything else. Get it? Minato believed Tobi to be Madara and no option was ahead in his list. So this is the fact that we'll go. One of the witnesses as NvsG said. He may have called him a "masked man" or said "it doesn't matter who is behind the mask" but again irrelevant, just Minato saying things that don't shake your argument one way or another. The question that he asked Tobi and that he said "only one person comes in my mind" is the strongest proof right now.
Don't TRY to pwn me, you never succeed, 'cause you again made a fool out of youself and I pwned you for talking nonsense and irrelevant things, + also that talking gorilla guy.
And it's good you have your own different theory, but unlike you I'll just go with the stronger facts. Nothing you have said has made me change my mind, and I say that is a possibility if enough evidence moves your argument into better direction.
I'd go into detail to explain to you why your head is up your ass and you're so called 'stronger facts' are in fact nothing more than the ramblings of a fanboy, but you won't understand anyway . So have fun with your false sense of accomplishment and jack off to your supposedly superior theory. You probably get a boner every time you make a post, seeing as how everything you say gets progressively more stupid.
I'd go into detail to explain to you why your head is up your ass and you're so called 'stronger facts' are in fact nothing more than the ramblings of a fanboy, but you won't understand anyway . So have fun with your false sense of accomplishment and jack off to your supposedly superior theory. You probably get a boner every time you make a post, seeing as how everything you say gets progressively more stupid.
Fact that you won't go in detail to explain to me why my head is up my ass proves something else.
But I really would like to get my head from my ass so won't you tell me something I surely won't understand?, 'cause you're so wise right?
I just said nothing you have said has made me change my mind but I'm open to other theories, as long as they don't contain irrelevant quotes that really don't mean jack shit.
But yeah I'll have fun with my boner. Don't you rip those pants of yours too much
Fact that you won't go in detail to explain to me why my head is up my ass proves something else.
But I really would like to get my head from my ass so won't you tell me something I surely won't understand?, 'cause you're so wise right?
I just said nothing you have said has made me change my mind but I'm open to other theories, as long as they don't contain irrelevant quotes that really don't mean jack shit.
But yeah I'll have fun with my boner. Don't you rip those pants of yours too much
And i don't need to prove my wisdom. The 2 earlier massively detailed posts i made in this thread already prove it. The only thing you've proven meanwhile is that you're a gay ***.
And since you just confessed to being a f aggot, it really explains a lot as to how this is all just you acting out your ***gy ass self.
And had you bothered to read, you would have known that what Minato said was quoted out of context by both you and NarutoVsGoku, he never said he is Madara, he just said that the only person he knew of that resembled this was Madara. But he did'nt actually believe it, as when he tells Naruto his son 16 years later he refers to him as the masked man instead of Madara. You're just too feeble and stupid to understand that what Minato said to Naruto happened later, and what Minato said to Tobi was earlier because you're only looking at the chapter number, not the timeline. And that's why your head is up your ass.
