Not by my logic,kishi's...read the databooks again,and the statments made about him in the manga.
He was talking about speed, because naruto made a comment about the raikage being fast, and the raikage responded with the aformentioned quote.
Hiruzen Sarutobi wa sthe strongest kage ever
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Not by my logic,kishi's...read the databooks again,and the statments made about him in the manga.
He was talking about speed, because naruto made a comment about the raikage being fast, and the raikage responded with the aformentioned quote.
lanakau888
Active member
No naruto commented on the raikage being fast, raikage mentioned naruto's dad was faster, naruto asked how he knows naruto's dad (notice the subject is not about speed anymore, its now about naruto's dad) and raikage says he fought his dad a lot and there was never a man who could surpass minato. Raikage elaborates that the unsurpassable minato died which is why he doesn't have confidence in naruto since nobody can surpass minato.
When raikage talks about minato being unsurpassable, the subject was minto, not about minatos speed.
No doubt about the raikage thinking minato could bring peace to the shinobi world, but i still think he was referring to speed,since both him and naruto excelled at that.Matter of opinion i guess...
Zohka Uchiha
Member
i agree that hiruzen was epic, stong everything, a god among men. but if he was that strong, why did minato repalce him so soon! minato was so young, and at the battle with tobi he did everything, and hiruzen was like "omg what to do" face exprestion. lett take emna out and just watch. therefore i understand why many is questioning his strength. and many say that minato was overreted, im a fan i agree on that. but he must be pretty epic to replace the strongest of kages at the age he had when i became kage! he must be a monster. so since we have so little proof of his strength since we only know FTGT and the rasengan, this is a big proof that minato was epic, since he replaced the god of shinobis at such a young age!
Reborn
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Here's my interpretation on the whole "strongest" Hokage thing. It was said by Iruka, and also in the data books (apparently, I haven't read them myself so I take the words/quotes of others) that Hiruzen was the strongest Hokage. Despite this being said in the data books and in the series, I believe that Kishi has contradicted himself, and has lead us to come up with different assumptions of the "strongest" Hokage.
What I mean by this is that, in the first series (before Shippuden) and in the first data book (which also corresponded with the first series at that time), yes it may have been Kishi's intent to say that Sandaime was the greatest Hokage, and what we've seen of him past his prime, leads a lot of people to believe that he was even greater then every other kage before him (the fact that he faced a Sannin, and the two previous Hokage. Even if they were edo summons and weren't in conscious states of mind). However in Shippuden the plot has thickened, and there are a lot of aspects that he adds in in order ot make the series a stronger story. He's giving this action based manga and anime some thick situations and scinerios in order to make it interesting...however, by doing so he has given new implications on certian things (i.e the Hokage topic we're on right now) that he didn't give, or gave the opposite of in the first series. Don't get me wrong there isn't anything wrong with that, and we have to give him credit for doing the great job he has done for so long (this must be complex for him to do).
What I'm getting at is, what was acceptable, or stated in the previous series or in the past, may not hold true today in his mind. It could also be that he had to contridict himself for some reasons or another concerning the series to make it more climatic and have it build up...that means the Kage. So far there is no recent data books up to the series, but does everybody know how the stats for the main characters get upgraded (more or less) in each book that has came out? That is similar to my theory on what he's doing with some things in the seires like the Kage. In part 1 we only knew of Minato as the guy who saved the village from the Kyuubi...in this part we found out just how he did it. He defeated Tobi in a short time and saved the entire village from the Kyuubi almost single handedly. We saw how he did this, we saw him take down a shinobi many believe to be the strongest at this point in time. We've seen demonstrations of his skills and so much hype that has crept him up and made people think of him as the greatest shinobi...now with Hashirama...Now I forget where it was stated that Hashirama had fought and defeated Madara (I believe it was part 1 because of the whole Valley of Ends deal)...Madara Uchiha, the man who has gained EMS and was saw as the most gifted of all the Uchiha. We see him now and we are getting his demonstration of power. Now with that, the questions pop up "how did Hashi defeat madara?" and "Hashi is the greatest if he defeated Madara"...this is a lot of hype but it might be well placed. I doubt Kishi has forgotten how he said Hashi had been defeated so all this does is boost hashirama's...Many think that Hiruzen could never have beaten Madara and therefore Hashirama is greater then him because He did in fact defeat madara
To prevent a long ass ramble which I know I'm doing, I'm going to cut to my main point...
Kishi says things...but implies other things later on, for the benifit of a greater action and stronger story...it may show flaws and contridictions to what he's said before but sometimes that's neccessary. However, this conflict over "Strongest" Hokage can go either way really. Hiruzen's debut as stronges Kage was in the verry beginning, and no implications sense his fight with Orochimaru has hyped him or repped him. It was said in a data book that came out in the time of Part 1 as well...In part two we see Minato's admirable and powerful skills, and we get the implications of Hashirama's power by looking and comparing them to Madara's demo right now. Tobirama even has his little bit of power hype creeping up. Edo Tensai, despite the description saying he didn't complete it, shinobi of his time (such as Muu) knew of it's existance and it's power. Madara has recently demonstrated knowledge in it. Gaara's father knew about the justu as well (even if he was a more modern Kage). The rep he gains from this show that...it had to have had some level of control or usage of the jutsu...not to mention Minato's brief comentary on his ST jutsu. Add that to the incredible water jutsu and he has been hyped to be a very powerful character as well. Do people see what I'm saying here?
I just felt like writting, don't complain. If you have a problem with it, don't read it and don't comment.
What I mean by this is that, in the first series (before Shippuden) and in the first data book (which also corresponded with the first series at that time), yes it may have been Kishi's intent to say that Sandaime was the greatest Hokage, and what we've seen of him past his prime, leads a lot of people to believe that he was even greater then every other kage before him (the fact that he faced a Sannin, and the two previous Hokage. Even if they were edo summons and weren't in conscious states of mind). However in Shippuden the plot has thickened, and there are a lot of aspects that he adds in in order ot make the series a stronger story. He's giving this action based manga and anime some thick situations and scinerios in order to make it interesting...however, by doing so he has given new implications on certian things (i.e the Hokage topic we're on right now) that he didn't give, or gave the opposite of in the first series. Don't get me wrong there isn't anything wrong with that, and we have to give him credit for doing the great job he has done for so long (this must be complex for him to do).
What I'm getting at is, what was acceptable, or stated in the previous series or in the past, may not hold true today in his mind. It could also be that he had to contridict himself for some reasons or another concerning the series to make it more climatic and have it build up...that means the Kage. So far there is no recent data books up to the series, but does everybody know how the stats for the main characters get upgraded (more or less) in each book that has came out? That is similar to my theory on what he's doing with some things in the seires like the Kage. In part 1 we only knew of Minato as the guy who saved the village from the Kyuubi...in this part we found out just how he did it. He defeated Tobi in a short time and saved the entire village from the Kyuubi almost single handedly. We saw how he did this, we saw him take down a shinobi many believe to be the strongest at this point in time. We've seen demonstrations of his skills and so much hype that has crept him up and made people think of him as the greatest shinobi...now with Hashirama...Now I forget where it was stated that Hashirama had fought and defeated Madara (I believe it was part 1 because of the whole Valley of Ends deal)...Madara Uchiha, the man who has gained EMS and was saw as the most gifted of all the Uchiha. We see him now and we are getting his demonstration of power. Now with that, the questions pop up "how did Hashi defeat madara?" and "Hashi is the greatest if he defeated Madara"...this is a lot of hype but it might be well placed. I doubt Kishi has forgotten how he said Hashi had been defeated so all this does is boost hashirama's...Many think that Hiruzen could never have beaten Madara and therefore Hashirama is greater then him because He did in fact defeat madara
To prevent a long ass ramble which I know I'm doing, I'm going to cut to my main point...
Kishi says things...but implies other things later on, for the benifit of a greater action and stronger story...it may show flaws and contridictions to what he's said before but sometimes that's neccessary. However, this conflict over "Strongest" Hokage can go either way really. Hiruzen's debut as stronges Kage was in the verry beginning, and no implications sense his fight with Orochimaru has hyped him or repped him. It was said in a data book that came out in the time of Part 1 as well...In part two we see Minato's admirable and powerful skills, and we get the implications of Hashirama's power by looking and comparing them to Madara's demo right now. Tobirama even has his little bit of power hype creeping up. Edo Tensai, despite the description saying he didn't complete it, shinobi of his time (such as Muu) knew of it's existance and it's power. Madara has recently demonstrated knowledge in it. Gaara's father knew about the justu as well (even if he was a more modern Kage). The rep he gains from this show that...it had to have had some level of control or usage of the jutsu...not to mention Minato's brief comentary on his ST jutsu. Add that to the incredible water jutsu and he has been hyped to be a very powerful character as well. Do people see what I'm saying here?
I just felt like writting, don't complain. If you have a problem with it, don't read it and don't comment.
lol double that,It's to bad he can't be revived after using the death seal.i miss that old man
Hiruzen does not possess a KG,or anything like sage mode, which enhances your abilities regardless of your age.Naturally,this translates into a shorter window when it comes to being in your prime.In his youth he had large chakra reserves making it possible for him to use all the techniques he knew,without having to worry aboout suddenly dying from exhaustion.
Hiruzen did not just watch, with enma,he actually ran the kyuubi out of town(with help) and he was ready to take action if everything else failed.The guy was not in his prime anymore,and as a retired kage he past the responsibilities on to the young and hungry minato.
lol, in short you are saying that we have witnessed a gigantic inflation in power, and that it isn't crazy to think kishi might have changed his mind,especially when we see certain contradictions in the manga.We are learning about how strong these past kages were, and it is hard to imagine that hiruzen could ever cope with that.
This is all true,but until proven otherwise his words stand(otherwise why believe anything?).Nobody else in the manga was called the strongest hokage,and although you can make an argument for each hokage being the strongest,it won''t change the fact that hiruzen recieved the highest form for hype.The question is can kishi deliver?
Professor Sarutobi
Active member
Replace him so soon? Hiruzen was 48-50 when he retired way older then the 1st and 2nd when they died, minato was just like Kakashi when he was nominated, famous, strong, fast and smart. And hiruzen led the attack on the 9tails while minato fought tobi. He couldn't block a TBB or get through minatos barrier to help at the end it wasent that he didnt want or couldn't help.
Gingka Uzumaki
Active member
Konohamaru is stronger than him.
But on the real.
Kishi didn't even show the real reason why Hashirama beat the **** out of Madara against Hiruzen. Guess why he is so overhyped?
Hashi>Naruto & Sasuke (OP as a mug)>Edo Madara>Old Madara>Minato>Tobi>Tobirama>Konohamaru>Tsunade
But on the real.
Kishi didn't even show the real reason why Hashirama beat the **** out of Madara against Hiruzen. Guess why he is so overhyped?
Hashi>Naruto & Sasuke (OP as a mug)>Edo Madara>Old Madara>Minato>Tobi>Tobirama>Konohamaru>Tsunade
yeah, he survived three wars and was leading two, while maintaining konoha as the nr1 village.
Huh?
Let me start off with yes in his prime the 3rd hokage was as strong as if not stronger than the the 1st and second hokage, As for thos who are confused about when the 3rd fought the 1st and 2nd hokage, he wasn't really fighting them. Orochimaru was not only controlling them but his version of the edo tensei wasn't that powerful, kabuto mastered it beyond the 2nd hokage or orochimaru and is able to make over 20 edo summons. Another factor is that the kage bros weren't into the fight, they were aware of what was happening but couldn't control themselves. As for the strongest hokage, in one of Kishi's interviews he stated that Minato was the strongest dead ninja but there's a few ninjas alive stronger than him. He also said Minato and the 3rd hokage are somewhat tied so in his prime the 3rd was a force to be reckon with. Don't forget that Minato was never in his prime, he was around 24 yes old when he died and Kishi is thinking of doing a spin off about him (stated in his interview). Don't even bring up the sage of six paths or his sons, unless you ever seen them fight you don't know how strong they may or may not be. I don't know all of the 3rd hokage's jutsus but I do know he needed to use minato's jutsus to win the battle and without it he would have died by himself, the jutsu is a last resort jutsus when nothing else works.
You guys seem to forget the fact that Minato was recently made hokage before tobi attacked the village, and inruka(sp?) was just a kid when Minato became hokage and the 3rd hokage was hokage when inruka(sp?) was with his parent and helped him handle his pain of losing his parents. Inruka most likely never saw Minato fight but remember when anko wished the 4th hokage was still alive, she knew how strong he was. So it's possible that inruka only said the 3rd hokage was the strongest because he respected his power and leadership or because he never saw what minato can/ would do as hokage. It's like us saying Naruto's strongest jutsus was oodama rasengan when it's rasen shuriken ( if he had both jutsus but we only saw oodama rasengan, we don't know what how strong rasen shuriken is if we never saw it) same for inruka and Minato.
this is from naruto wiki on Hiruzen under abilities see link
According to Iruka, he was said to be the strongest Hokage that Konoha ever had as well as the strongest of all the five Kage during his era.
Hiruzen isnt the strongest hokage, Hiruzen was the strongest Hokage. His era is long over, his prime was a long time ago
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According to Iruka, he was said to be the strongest Hokage that Konoha ever had as well as the strongest of all the five Kage during his era.
Hiruzen isnt the strongest hokage, Hiruzen was the strongest Hokage. His era is long over, his prime was a long time ago
Reborn
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I'm not so much saying that Hiruzen couldn't have been able to beat the others or wasn't at a higher level, I'm just saying that; for the plot's sake he's giving us explinations and rationalization of certian character's powers that over hype them or give them credit beyond other characters. The reason (I believe) that Minato and Hashirama are being overglorified at this moment is because Minato is Naruto's father an Kishi inserted him in a larger role because Naruto's goal was to surpass previous Hokage and live up to as his father's legacy...with Hashirama it's a more technical relivence more then emotional or figurativly. Zetsu, the living clone, Wood release, Younger and Older brother, enemy of the Sharingan. Main rival of one of the greatest shinobi and potential main antagonist....These are reason why they're getting more credit at this moment then Hiruzen. Hiruzen's role isn't really anything relivent to the story after Orochimaru, and even then he was little to the main set, which is why we haven't seen anything of him past that one fight. Even in the flash back we didn't see him fight, although it was implied he was stong. Hiruzen couldn't have been older then his early 20s when he took hold of Hokage title and that says something but his feets don't support much...
With me, actions speak louder then words. In my U.S history class we learn how historians break down information that they study and choose which bits and pieces to put in the text books (perticurally the more relivent peices of the history). They don't take every little detail and put it in a text book, they decide what were the key points to place in. That being said, Kishi is basically the same for his own universe. Based on the foundation he's already put forth (in terms of the plot) he decides what's important to place in the series and what to focus on...all these vs. threads we put in here (Jiraiya vs. Itachi, Muu vs anybody etc...) those aren't important to the plot so he's not going to show them...Itachi vs Kabuto...that may be relivent seeing as Itachi said he was going to take care of Kabuto (or the Edo summons which would mean the summons as well). I am also saying that for that reason (the reson of placing the important things in the series) that Kishi may need to go back on a few things in order to make it more realistic to the universe, meaning he may not hold Hiruzen as the strongest...however, we can't determine if Hiruzen is or isn't since we haven't seen feets of battle (again, due to lack of relivence to the plot).
IMO every Hokage has the ability to take down the other, in almost any circumstance...For me it all depends on the luck (looking for the moment their opponent is at their weakest or the littlest opening). Hashirama master of wood release, defeated the first Uchiha to obtain the most powerful eyes of the Uchiha clan....Tobirama created the jutsu that is plauging the allied forces as we speek (although not mastered to the degree Kabuto and Oro used it at, it still was usable due to the jutsu reputation spreading back during his time as a shinobi and known by Kage of all generations) and ST jutsu (to a point it was recognized by Minato and held on nearing terms with his own, when he described Tobi's to be better then both his and Tobiramas). Hiruzen (God of shinobi, professor, master of every jutsu of Konoha supposedly), Minato (Ftg, once in a lifetime genius, unsurpassed speed even to this day, fuinjutsu master, savior of Konoha)...Lets leave Tsunade (...D cup). Now all of them have equal chances of defeating one another (that Tsunade thing was a joke). Minato and Tobi I feel have the speed advantage over the other two. Hashirama and Hiruzen seem to have outright power over the other two (meaning jutsu mastery and potency in their offense)...this is just my opinion but given equal ground for the shinobi, it's all a matter of who slips up first.
How I've broken down all the implications Kishi has given us (the implications being Hashirama and Minato seem to be star Hokage due to relivence), people have the right to argue that Hashi or Minato are better. Actions speak louder then words. Kishi has said some things but when you study something, you're allowed to make fair estimations and to question previously revealed statements...the reason why you can (especially in this case for example)...how do you expect people to accept the word of the higher ups if there is no justification? Why are we not to make assumptions or conclude based on facts demonstrated in the series itself...now people could bring how can we accept God and the bible or Quran (spelling), or religion if there is no proof to that? I am religious (to some extent)...I won't get into it, but people are free to believe what they believe and question what they want based on evidence they see or feel..."The abscence of evidence, is not the evidence of abscence" I feel that is an appropriate quote (I got if from Gin Rummy from the Boondocks aka Samuel L. Jackson lol but I believe it...go ahead question my taking morals from a tv showxd). That's how I feel about God, and on this topic. I don't believe Hiruzen is the strongest nor do I believe any of the other Kage are stronger/weaker then any other...I believe in a middle ground...however for people to believe what they want (despite what the creator has said...remember the creator has demonstrated things that cause people to feel this way. It's not complete fanboy's who are making these claims (some are). Even fanboys have a right to make thes justifications based on what the creator has penned down) is acceptable because, there is evidence (in Minato's case more then Hashirama) and substancial evidence (Hashirama's case...he beat Madara, Madara is being hyped right now and as a result so is Hashirama) to argue for their side
Again sorry for the wall, I'm more or less preparing for a U.S history debate