Minato isn't stronger than EMS Madara

[psukkar]

Okay this still is going on.

I did a detailed poats a while back that compares minato, madara and hasihrama.I just going to copy it.

The forth hokage is praised as the strongest in his generation. Generation as in among his peers in konoha.

SAME with the third hokage(he was praised to be the strongest among his konoha peers)(God of shinobi refers to how wise he was in battle not directly saying he was unstoppable in battle. Simular to the so6p his wisdom in ninjutsu gave him the title of God of shinobi.)

SAME with the 2nd hokage (he was praised to be the strongest among his konoha peers) and that's right

the SAME WITH THE 1st hokage.(But madara said he was strongest of HIS TIME irrespective of village. Make a note if this)

The REAL question is WHICH GENERATION IS STRONGEST, can you really answer that, well no. So this comes down to your common sense and unbaised gut feeling.

But I can shed of light about the respective power heirechy regarding madara, 1st hokage and forth hokage.

A lot of guys believe those interviews and that's fine I do too but I don't read them literally. KISHI is tricky and if you read his other interviews you'll see it’s hard to know exactly what he is implying. The interviews are VAGUE SPOILERS, he can't give way the story or that will ruin the suspense he been trying to build over the past two years. It’s like someone telling u the ending of a movie while you’re watching a movie and you’re halfway. It blows it completely. TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT.

Now the statement for those who don't know, is the following:

"The third and forth hokages are the strongest out all the dead shinobi" by the way that interview has been confirmed as fake but I'll go assuming its real either way you'll see the manga proves it fake also.

Now If you think Kishi truly meant that the third and forth were stronger than everyone else(like the 1st,2nd and 3rd generations of kages) then WHY O WHY would kishi contradict himself in the manga he WRITES.

In the Manga, the Forth hokage was talking about Madara to Naruto and he said the following(chapter 440 page 8).

"I sealed half the demon fox's chakra"
"Because I knew you'd learn to use it someday, because you were my son"
"I had a very good reason for it"
"Someone was hiding in the shadows controlling the nine fox's every move"
"He too(hes referring to PAIN as Naruto is fighting PAIN) was a shinobi of unfathomable power"
"No one could ever face him without very unique set of abilities" (read this again and again, these are the word of MINATO.

Now this is what Madara said about himself to the Tsuchikage(Ōnoki) at the kage meeting about the state he's in, the very same state the forth hokage could not defeat as mentioned in the dialog above. (chapter 467 pages 9-10)

Tsuchikage(Ōnoki) - "It certainly is a shock to hear that Uchiha Madara still lives"
Tsuchikage(Ōnoki) - "But why would man of your calibre resort to these roundabout tactics, surely with your power you could accomplish anything you want" (tell me you read this, and is said by KAGE not some noob like Iruka)

Madara - "The wounds from my battle with the first hokage, Hashirama, were too deep... right now, I am powerless"
Madara - "I am nothing more than empty shell of my former self"

Madara was defeated by the First hokage and he does have very unique skill sets, wood jutsu for one AND IT'S STILL UNIQUE TO THIS DAY by the way(Yamato doesn't count).

 

[Draegod]

I am only going to respond to the bolded parts as I know you will never admit that I am right ever.

"Minato's muscle speed is the same as everyone else's. "
That sir is a complete lie. What did Shee say when the A turned on raiton armor?" His reaction speed is on par with the 4th Hokage's when he has the raiton armor on" That is a direct quote from the manga. He can move faster than Madara can bring his arm down too. In case you forgot that part. And he was like fifty feet away from kakashi when Kakashi was about to use chidori for the first time and to use chidori you have to be moving very fast, and Minato still got there in time to save kakashi and kick and tag the other guy.

I'm sorry but you have to admit you are wrong here. I don't even know what made you think this. Minato has the fastest reactions of all the characters.

Now on to the next bolded part, genjutsus are actually not that easy to be dispelled and you have to know that you are in one first. Oro has a five in genjutsu but could not dispel Itachi's genjutsu (which wasn't Tsukuyomi) because he didn't know he was in one. Same with Deidara and Sasuke, and Danzo.

Genjutsu is useful to change little things about the battle that make all the difference. The trick is to make it seem like reality, not be stupid like Kurenai. How many of Itachi's opponents have known they were in genjutus? And of those how many are kage level ninjas? Genjutsu if used correctly is the best, you just have to make it seem like reality.

And the reason I did not respond to the Hanzo part is because I was up in the air about Minato vs. Hanzo.

you misunderstood me. i wasnt saying he was slow nor was his reaction speed slow. im stateing his hand motion is the same as any other ninja (i was saying his arm muscles) foot speed means nothing if your hands/weapons cant match it.

You must be registered for see links

(start at 2:05 ) and youll see that is true speed of every part of your body! as in i didnt see anything at all- all togather. not just i tele to you then it takes me time to stab you (if i can see you stab me, then your arm/hand speed is the same as mine).

and again you are overrating genjutsu. smh... itachis gen is powerful, doesnt mean everyone else can acheive/do what he can/did do.

 

[Savior..]

Madaras stronger then Minato

Minatos stronger the Tobi (Zetsu clone)

 

[Totsuka No Tsurugi]

MADARA>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>MINATO
no offence for minato fanboy but dude its the truth deal with it

 

[TheGr8Uchiha]

You know you cant argue with someone when they say sarutobi is stronger than Minato U_U, until I see Sarutobi when he was young then I can compare, but for now Minato is stronger.

 

[DigitalMonster]

That is well-sound, since old Hiruzen had shown to be able to take on 3 kage level ninja, and now Minato is too much for him to handle.

 

[-Vegeta-]

That is well-sound, since old Hiruzen had shown to be able to take on 3 kage level ninja, and now Minato is too much for him to handle.

You do realize Hashirama and Tobirama were toying with Hiruzen right? Orochimaru even says as much.

 

[DigitalMonster]

And you are talking about a 70 year old man fighting three kage level opponents (regardless of the obvious handicaps) and manages to blow both their legs off and counters one of the strongest ninjutsu in the manga, mokuton, with Enma. He also shows tremendous composure getting through Hashirama's darkness genjutsu.

 

[-Vegeta-]

And you are talking about a 70 year old man fighting three kage level opponents (regardless of the obvious handicaps) and manages to blow both their legs off and counters one of the strongest ninjutsu in the manga, mokuton, with Enma. He also shows tremendous composure getting through Hashirama's darkness genjutsu.

Like i said he was being toyed with, what don't you get about that? Orochimaru could've had Hiruzen killed any time he wanted too, but instead he chose to toy with him. Also he was 68 not 70, so next time get your facts straight. You're sitting here trying to say a featless ninja can beat another ninja who actually has good feats. Feats>Hype my friend. Prime Hiruzen has no feats while Minato actually has pretty good ones. Also Onoki seems to have no problem fighting while old, so please stop using old age as an excuse. No doubt they were both probably stronger in there prime, but they're not going to be infinitely stronger like some people make them out to be.

 

[Draegod]

Like i said he was being toyed with, what don't you get about that? Orochimaru could've had Hiruzen killed any time he wanted too, but instead he chose to toy with him. Also he was 68 not 70, so next time get your facts straight. You're sitting here trying to say a featless ninja can beat another ninja who actually has good feats. Feats>Hype my friend. Prime Hiruzen has no feats while Minato actually has pretty good ones. Also Onoki seems to have no problem fighting while old, so please stop using old age as an excuse. No doubt they were both probably stronger in there prime, but they're not going to be infinitely stronger like some people make them out to be.

i actually like this counter argument. cant really argue untill we see feats.. i still beleive saru is stronger, but like you said untill i see more its useless..

 

[DigitalMonster]

I could also argue that Hiruzen wasn't being serious either,he couldn't let himself killed his former apprentice.

Hiruzen has lesser feats?

 

[leafeater]

First, I'm not in complete disagreement with you; rather, I feel that there's a definite need for moderation on expectations what we can know about the outcome of Minato and EMS Madara. I simply feel no definitive statement can be made here given the current lack of information, which I expect to be filled in.

The EMS Madara has never been seen, so it's hard if not impossible to compare the two. We literally know nothing about what his EMS jutsu are, which likely are EMS Madara's four most powerful attacks/defenses. I can guess one is a powerful genjutsu along the lines of Shisui's Kotoamatsukami and Itachi/Sasuke's Tsukiyomi. However because two unrelated MS users have shown different MS techniques, I would extrapolate that Madara's are also different.

Second, the example fight you showed panels of was a fight that was decided by speed, and one of the very few fights in Naruto and Shippuuden where that's ever the case. Minato's FTG I/II was faster giving him the ability to plant the seal to break the Kyuubi contract and land the kunai blow, followed by FTG II with a Rasengan to the back. Granted, Madara wasn't crippled but notably damaged, and could've continued impaired but he had no reason. Madara didn't go full out after he lost control of the Kyuubi because there was no reason to stay, and I'm sure his wounds played some part. He also underestimated Minato and paid for it. It's obvious he underestimated in that panel I think you show (it's in the manga anyway) where he talks to him rather than try to simply warp him immediately, which he then mentally notes was a mistake. Also, even though it was only 16 years ago, I don't know when he perfected Izanagi, it wouldn't surprise me either way, but it's moot. If he did, again, it would've been pointless. Minato had broken the contract between Madara and the Kyuubi, so Madara could not control the Kyuubi to destroy Konoha, and his plan was finished.

Really, one thing that I suggest you add to your argument is Naruto's meeting with Minato's chakra residual self he left when Naruto going 8-tails, stating why he made Naruto the Kyuubi Jinchuuriki to fight Madara because Madara was no ordinary ninja who saw through his (Minato's) moves that night, and that he felt a ninja with a special power would be needed to defeat him, namely that of the Kyuubi. Even though Minato won the battle, he saw that Madara was a much greater threat than that battle or the Kyuubi represented, which is why failing to kill him there was one of Minato's failures in my opinion. Keep in mind what you posted is Kushina's recount of the fight, and for a more complete account Minato's conversation with Naruto is needed, and in your case makes your argument stronger in my opinion.

Thus, I would say the following combination provides some of the strongest evidence for your position: of Minato's conversation above, which also replays the fight a little if I recall (not sure, maybe just the masked man bit), combined with Madara stating to Minato among others that he is a shell of his former self, and Minato's amazement during his analysis of Madara as a "shell" of his former self. Namely that the shell of EMS Madara possess such great power to face Minato and control the Kyuubi. Granted, to what extent is he a "shell" considering what he's gained in the process as sacrifice such as perfect Izanagi and later on the Rinnegan, etc.

Anyway, I would say it's reasonable to question whether Minato could defeat the same EMS Madara Hashirama did (i.e. identical conditions); however, I've barely seen Minato, and what I've seen was impressive but very limited and highly focused on a limited aspect of his fighting style. As for the EMS Madara, I've seen nothing. There is literally so little known about these two guys that it's impossible to make a definitive conclusion such as your thread title does. "Minato isn't stronger than EMS Madara." For anyone to claim certainty of a victor or better individual, is to claim that they know something that's currently impossible to know.

Peace :hug:

 

[-Vegeta-]

I could also argue that Hiruzen wasn't being serious either,he couldn't let himself killed his former apprentice.

Hiruzen has lesser hype?

Lmao at you if you really believe this. When i said that Orochimaru was toying with Hiruzen it was a fact considering he says it in the manga. You're using speculation. Look i'm done arguing with you because your arguments are as foolish as you saying Hiruzen was letting Orochimaru kill him.

Peace.

 

[siyo]

First of all if you are a Minato tard half the library get out.

[ALT + F4 at the same time]

Plot induced-stupidity

You must be registered for see images

People forget about Madara catching Minato's wrist really easily and almost-warping him, but conveniently deciding to warp him slower than he was capable of despite knowing of and already witnessing Hiraishin.

A division of his power

You must be registered for see images

The entire time that he was fighting Minato, he was also controlling the Nine Tails, you know, that animal that was fighting the village, that Minato had to give his life to seal, and that his badass wife had to chain up for him.

Madara was hurried

You must be registered for see images

Controlling the Nine Tails isn't easy. Minato himself was clear that Tobi needs to kill Minato fast, and it's that hastiness that allows Minato to defeat Tobi, as well as a hell of a lot of plot protection.

Sharingan Genjutsu

You must be registered for see images

Minato, like Konan, was staring at the Sharingan, but Tobi seems to actively choose not to use Sharingan genjutsu until the endgame, like Sasuke. That's pretty much plot-induced stupidity as well.

Complete Izanagi

You must be registered for see images

Madara made one Sharingan last five minutes. That's ten minutes of Danzō-style of invincibility and teleportation. Which can be used
intermittently with intangibility, rendering Madara invincible.

Kunai Placement

You must be registered for see images

Tobi's ability conveniently played to Minato's strength as well. Could you find a better position for a Hiraishin tag other than the back of somebody's head? It's too bad Tobi didn't use that feint that he used on Torune...

Minato's Strongest

You must be registered for see images

Tobi tanked and regenerated from Minato's strongest attack in a way that Orochimaru would. So he can be intangible for five minutes, use Izanagi, buy seconds with genjutsu, teleport seal-lessly, and tank

Madara didn't have prep

You must be registered for see images

This claim annoys me. Madara strolled in, murdered all of Minato's bodyguards and nurses with Minato in the same room, marched to Konohagakure, slaughtering many shinobi, and obliterated Minato's family. Akatsuki and him could have come back the next day and taken the Fox back if not for the plot.

I'm inclined to agree with your statement.

The one who fought minato was a shell of his former self,and minato still praised his talent.The fact is kushina and minato both died while madara lived to fight another day,which minato also feared because he felt like it took a special kind of guy to get rid of him.It was also established madara's had the more advanced S/T justu.


Now, a 100% healthy madara is deadly.He manipulated some of the strongest characters in naruto,and was the leader of one of the strongest clans.Itachi himself couldn't kill him, despite him having every motive to do so.An elite uchiha is deadly with the art of genjutsu,and every thing indicates that genjutsu was minato weakness.Naruto is not strong in genjutsu,and as jiraiya said his talent was not in that department,which means that he most likely inherited it from one of his parents(and he looks like a spitting image of minato).Jiraiya was minato's teacher and he was weak in the art,as well, and he actually opted not to teach nagato in it,so it is highly likely the same went for minato training,who btw also never uses it in battle.Nothing is set in stone but the evidence is compelling.
We know for fact madara has a strong enough genjutsu to wreck the entire hidden mist,and this was recognized/confirmed by all the kages.

I didn't even factor in the tailed beast(and his other EMS ability).Minato is smart but so is Madara who has a lot more experience when it comes to stategies.

P.S. Anybody who neglects the other kages,while hyping up minato the max is crazy,and can't be taken seriously.

 

[leafeater]

I'm inclined to agree with your statement.

The one who fought minato was a shell of his former self,and minato still praised his talent.The fact is kushina and minato both died while madara lived to fight another day,which minato also feared because he felt like it took a special kind of guy to get rid of him.It was also established madara's had the more advanced S/T justu.


Now, a 100% healthy madara is deadly.He manipulated some of the strongest characters in naruto,and was the leader of one of the strongest clans.Itachi himself couldn't kill him, despite him having every motive to do so.An elite uchiha is deadly with the art of genjutsu,and every thing indicates that genjutsu was minato weakness.Naruto is not strong in genjutsu,and as jiraiya said his talent was not in that department,which means that he most likely inherited it from one of his parents(and he looks like a spitting image of minato).Jiraiya was minato's teacher and he was weak in the art,as well, and he actually opted not to teach nagato in it,so it is highly likely the same went for minato training,who btw also never uses it in battle.Nothing is set in stone but the evidence is compelling.
We know for fact madara has a strong enough genjutsu to wreck the entire hidden mist,and this was recognized/confirmed by all the kages.

I didn't even factor in the tailed beast(and his other EMS ability).Minato is smart but so is Madara who has a lot more experience when it comes to stategies.

P.S. Anybody who neglects the other kages,while hyping up minato the max is crazy,and can't be taken seriously.

No offense Siyo, but this post has some glaring issues where you mix speculation and fact. First, we don't know if EMS Madara had space-time jutsu when he fought Hashirama, in fact we know nothing basically.

Regarding drawing the conclusion thst Minato was weak to genjutsu based on Naruto's weakness and what Jiraiya taught him is stretching it beyond credulity and what the facts allow. Jiraiya and Tsunade state that while Naruto looks like Minato, his fighting style is like his mother's. Who cares if they look alike, Naruto and Minato are totally different. Jiraiya also likely taught everyone something different, after all Naruto had the Kyuubi to work on and Nagato had the Rinnegan, so we know Jiraiya didn't have a single lesson plan worked out.

Further, Madara via genjutsu, "wrecked the mist," as you put it because of who the one person, the Mizukage , the genjutsu was on, who knows what his level of genjutsu defense was or what type was applied, that was never made clear.

As far as battle tactics go, Minato is a genius and broke up Madara's immediate plans quite easily. Thus, for a single fight with no runaways or underlings allowed, Madara and Minato are likely more closely matched in tactics than credit is being given.

I left out plenty of other points, so I'll just leave with a general one you already know...please be careful when posting that the unknowns don't get written in such a way that appear or can be interpreted to be presented as knowns.

Notice, I'm only highlighting some of your points. My apologies for being critical, but this just seemed uncharacteristic of you. Don't be surprised if I made my own mistakes...lol

Peace

 

[TheGr8Uchiha]

Like i said he was being toyed with, what don't you get about that? Orochimaru could've had Hiruzen killed any time he wanted too, but instead he chose to toy with him. Also he was 68 not 70, so next time get your facts straight. You're sitting here trying to say a featless ninja can beat another ninja who actually has good feats. Feats>Hype my friend. Prime Hiruzen has no feats while Minato actually has pretty good ones. Also Onoki seems to have no problem fighting while old, so please stop using old age as an excuse. No doubt they were both probably stronger in there prime, but they're not going to be infinitely stronger like some people make them out to be.

Exactly, this nonexistent Prime Hiruzen that we have not seen anything from is stronger than Minato that we have actually seen things from? We can not say anything till we see Hiruzen when he was young.

 

[jayhayallday]

This would be such an epic fight and I'd love to see minato dominate but we haven't seen enough of either to know what would happen...wish we could have seen this

 

[DigitalMonster]

I didn't said Hiruzen was letting himself got beat up,I said that his concentration was disturbed in the fight,he couldn't bring himself to kill Orochimaru.Which is one of the crucial factors why ''he was being toyed''.

First, I'm not in complete disagreement with you; rather, I feel that there's a definite need for moderation on expectations what we can know about the outcome of Minato and EMS Madara. I simply feel no definitive statement can be made here given the current lack of information, which I expect to be filled in.

The EMS Madara has never been seen, so it's hard if not impossible to compare the two. We literally know nothing about what his EMS jutsu are, which likely are EMS Madara's four most powerful attacks/defenses. I can guess one is a powerful genjutsu along the lines of Shisui's Kotoamatsukami and Itachi/Sasuke's Tsukiyomi. However because two unrelated MS users have shown different MS techniques, I would extrapolate that Madara's are also different.

Second, the example fight you showed panels of was a fight that was decided by speed, and one of the very few fights in Naruto and Shippuuden where that's ever the case. Minato's FTG I/II was faster giving him the ability to plant the seal to break the Kyuubi contract and land the kunai blow, followed by FTG II with a Rasengan to the back. Granted, Madara wasn't crippled but notably damaged, and could've continued impaired but he had no reason. Madara didn't go full out after he lost control of the Kyuubi because there was no reason to stay, and I'm sure his wounds played some part. He also underestimated Minato and paid for it. It's obvious he underestimated in that panel I think you show (it's in the manga anyway) where he talks to him rather than try to simply warp him immediately, which he then mentally notes was a mistake. Also, even though it was only 16 years ago, I don't know when he perfected Izanagi, it wouldn't surprise me either way, but it's moot. If he did, again, it would've been pointless. Minato had broken the contract between Madara and the Kyuubi, so Madara could not control the Kyuubi to destroy Konoha, and his plan was finished.

Really, one thing that I suggest you add to your argument is Naruto's meeting with Minato's chakra residual self he left when Naruto going 8-tails, stating why he made Naruto the Kyuubi Jinchuuriki to fight Madara because Madara was no ordinary ninja who saw through his (Minato's) moves that night, and that he felt a ninja with a special power would be needed to defeat him, namely that of the Kyuubi. Even though Minato won the battle, he saw that Madara was a much greater threat than that battle or the Kyuubi represented, which is why failing to kill him there was one of Minato's failures in my opinion. Keep in mind what you posted is Kushina's recount of the fight, and for a more complete account Minato's conversation with Naruto is needed, and in your case makes your argument stronger in my opinion.

Thus, I would say the following combination provides some of the strongest evidence for your position: of Minato's conversation above, which also replays the fight a little if I recall (not sure, maybe just the masked man bit), combined with Madara stating to Minato among others that he is a shell of his former self, and Minato's amazement during his analysis of Madara as a "shell" of his former self. Namely that the shell of EMS Madara possess such great power to face Minato and control the Kyuubi. Granted, to what extent is he a "shell" considering what he's gained in the process as sacrifice such as perfect Izanagi and later on the Rinnegan, etc.

Anyway, I would say it's reasonable to question whether Minato could defeat the same EMS Madara Hashirama did (i.e. identical conditions); however, I've barely seen Minato, and what I've seen was impressive but very limited and highly focused on a limited aspect of his fighting style. As for the EMS Madara, I've seen nothing. There is literally so little known about these two guys that it's impossible to make a definitive conclusion such as your thread title does. "Minato isn't stronger than EMS Madara." For anyone to claim certainty of a victor or better individual, is to claim that they know something that's currently impossible to know.

Peace :hug:

I'm inclined to agree with your statement.

The one who fought minato was a shell of his former self,and minato still praised his talent.The fact is kushina and minato both died while madara lived to fight another day,which minato also feared because he felt like it took a special kind of guy to get rid of him.It was also established madara's had the more advanced S/T justu.


Now, a 100% healthy madara is deadly.He manipulated some of the strongest characters in naruto,and was the leader of one of the strongest clans.Itachi himself couldn't kill him, despite him having every motive to do so.An elite uchiha is deadly with the art of genjutsu,and every thing indicates that genjutsu was minato weakness.Naruto is not strong in genjutsu,and as jiraiya said his talent was not in that department,which means that he most likely inherited it from one of his parents(and he looks like a spitting image of minato).Jiraiya was minato's teacher and he was weak in the art,as well, and he actually opted not to teach nagato in it,so it is highly likely the same went for minato training,who btw also never uses it in battle.Nothing is set in stone but the evidence is compelling.
We know for fact madara has a strong enough genjutsu to wreck the entire hidden mist,and this was recognized/confirmed by all the kages.

I didn't even factor in the tailed beast(and his other EMS ability).Minato is smart but so is Madara who has a lot more experience when it comes to stategies.

P.S. Anybody who neglects the other kages,while hyping up minato the max is crazy,and can't be taken seriously.

Excellent response, both of you.I dunno if you want to debate, but I can see where you're coming from for the most part.Though arguing on Minato's intelligence shouldn't be debated here.

 

[PositiveEmotions]

First of all if you are a Minato tard half the library get out.

[ALT + F4 at the same time]

Plot induced-stupidity

You must be registered for see images

People forget about Madara catching Minato's wrist really easily and almost-warping him, but conveniently deciding to warp him slower than he was capable of despite knowing of and already witnessing Hiraishin.

A division of his power

You must be registered for see images

The entire time that he was fighting Minato, he was also controlling the Nine Tails, you know, that animal that was fighting the village, that Minato had to give his life to seal, and that his badass wife had to chain up for him.

Madara was hurried

You must be registered for see images

Controlling the Nine Tails isn't easy. Minato himself was clear that Tobi needs to kill Minato fast, and it's that hastiness that allows Minato to defeat Tobi, as well as a hell of a lot of plot protection.

Sharingan Genjutsu

You must be registered for see images

Minato, like Konan, was staring at the Sharingan, but Tobi seems to actively choose not to use Sharingan genjutsu until the endgame, like Sasuke. That's pretty much plot-induced stupidity as well.

Complete Izanagi

You must be registered for see images

Madara made one Sharingan last five minutes. That's ten minutes of Danzō-style of invincibility and teleportation. Which can be used
intermittently with intangibility, rendering Madara invincible.

Kunai Placement

You must be registered for see images

Tobi's ability conveniently played to Minato's strength as well. Could you find a better position for a Hiraishin tag other than the back of somebody's head? It's too bad Tobi didn't use that feint that he used on Torune...

Minato's Strongest

You must be registered for see images

Tobi tanked and regenerated from Minato's strongest attack in a way that Orochimaru would. So he can be intangible for five minutes, use Izanagi, buy seconds with genjutsu, teleport seal-lessly, and tank

Madara didn't have prep

You must be registered for see images

This claim annoys me. Madara strolled in, murdered all of Minato's bodyguards and nurses with Minato in the same room, marched to Konohagakure, slaughtering many shinobi, and obliterated Minato's family. Akatsuki and him could have come back the next day and taken the Fox back if not for the plot.

wow dude your way off u yes madara was fighting minato and controlling the kyuubi but compare to minato minato was saving the village and naruto and kushina not only that he had enough chakra to put the kyuubi in naruto so what minato did was right and at the end madara will die and as for speed minato is fast and also do not make a thread about minato and the whole ems stuff because the manga never showed minato agains a ems user so yea (he would lose but still was not shown)

 

[siyo]

No offense Siyo, but this post has some glaring issues where you mix speculation and fact. First, we don't know if EMS Madara had space-time jutsu when he fought Hashirama, in fact we know nothing basically.

No offense taken.No need to apologise for being critical,since i would have done the same if i didn't agree with you.

I thought i made it clear in my post when and where i was assuming/speculating, based on some facts in the manga.You could see that when i used words like "most likely,"indicates",and "nothing is set in stone".I also assumed we are discussing the legend madara,because we don't even know if madara is madara,or anything about most of his EMS "gifts".Same goes for if he had S/T justu or not(does look like kakashi's MS tech though ).I will make the distinctions more clear next time..

Regarding drawing the conclusion thst Minato was weak to genjutsu based on Naruto's weakness and what Jiraiya taught him is stretching it beyond credulity and what the facts allow. Jiraiya and Tsunade state that while Naruto looks like Minato, his fighting style is like his mother's. Who cares if they look alike, Naruto and Minato are totally different. Jiraiya also likely taught everyone something different, after all Naruto had the Kyuubi to work on and Nagato had the Rinnegan, so we know Jiraiya didn't have a single lesson plan worked out.,

is it? Sure, it's a hypothesis but minato died young, so naturally he was heavily influenced by Jiraiya.We know jiraiya's skillset and he himself admitted he was weak in genjutsu(talking base jiraiya). Obviously, he is going teach his students differently and based on their natural talents, but he won't leave the realm of where he is most comfortable,and where he can be most effective as a teacher(taijutsu,ninjutsu,and fuuinjutsu).This also reflected in all his students.

When i said he was a spitting image of minato, i didn't just mean physically but metaphorically as well.Speed,agility,talent,chakra,sensing skills,outlook on life, and most importantly the will to never give up...Ring a bell? Many people throughout the series have commented on the similarities between minato and naruto.So, i don't think it is too far-fetched to think that they are similar when it comes to genjutsu also.

Not saying i couldn't be wrong though

Further, Madara via genjutsu, "wrecked the mist," as you put it because of who the one person, the Mizukage , the genjutsu was on, who knows what his level of genjutsu defense was or what type was applied, that was never made clear.

Exactly my point.Yagura was Kage and more importantly he was a perfect jinchuuriki,so it had to be a strong genjutsu for him to be toyed with.He controlled the kyuubi and forced information out of people, who would rather die than give madara anything(yamato,konan,etc..).Chiyo clearly said that you should not fight an uchiha alone,and madara was the top of the food chain.

You must be registered for see links

Madara's level of genjutsu should be equivalent or better than strong illusions like Tsukuyomi and Koto.

As far as battle tactics go, Minato is a genius and broke up Madara's immediate plans quite easily. Thus, for a single fight with no runaways or underlings allowed, Madara and Minato are likely more closely matched in tactics than credit is being given.

I'm not disputing minato's intelligence,but as you said not enough credit is being given to madara,which means we agree lol