DigitalMonster
Active member
Madara shouldn't be better in genjutsu than Itachi,as long as this
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hasn't been touched yet.
Minato isn't stronger than EMS Madara
- Thread starter DigitalMonster
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I put your post in a spoiler to save space, apologies, given my length, lol. :shrug:No offense taken.No need to apologise for being critical,since i would have done the same if i didn't agree with you.
I thought i made it clear in my post when and where i was assuming/speculating, based on some facts in the manga.You could see that when i used words like "most likely,"indicates",and "nothing is set in stone".I also assumed we are discussing the legend madara,because we don't even know if madara is madara,or anything about most of his EMS "gifts".Same goes for if he had S/T justu or not(does look like kakashi's MS tech though ).I will make the distinctions more clear next time..
is it? Sure, it's a hypothesis but minato died young, so naturally he was heavily influenced by Jiraiya.We know jiraiya's skillset and he himself admitted he was weak in genjutsu(talking base jiraiya). Obviously, he is going teach his students differently and based on their natural talents, but he won't leave the realm of where he is most comfortable,and where he can be most effective as a teacher(taijutsu,ninjutsu,and fuuinjutsu).This also reflected in all his students.
When i said he was a spitting image of minato, i didn't just mean physically but metaphorically as well.Speed,agility,talent,chakra,sensing skills,outlook on life, and most importantly the will to never give up...Ring a bell? Many people throughout the series have commented on the similarities between minato and naruto.So, i don't think it is too far-fetched to think that they are similar when it comes to genjutsu also.
Not saying i couldn't be wrong though
Exactly my point.Yagura was Kage and more importantly he was a perfect jinchuuriki,so it had to be a strong genjutsu for him to be toyed with.He controlled the kyuubi and forced information out of people, who would rather die than give madara anything(yamato,konan,etc..).Chiyo clearly said that you should not fight an uchiha alone,and madara was the top of the food chain.
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Madara's level of genjutsu should be equivalent or better than strong illusions like Tsukuyomi and Koto.
I'm not disputing minato's intelligence,but as you said not enough credit is being given to madara,which means we agree lol
1.) Don't sweat it, as I said, it was atypical of your posts, and I didn't want someone else coming down on you in less reasonable manner. I admit it's perfectly possible, if not likely after reading your post, that I misread portions of your original post, that you did in fact make clear the differences and I missed it, so I'll take some fault for missing those statements/clarifications. It's all good.
1.) Keep in mind Jiraiya didn't just teach Minato, Minato taught Jiraiya, which is evident from the Rasengan. Minato had that ability to self-teach, self-discover that's unique. I think Jiriaya was not a limitation and poured into him everything he could, and Minato kept going by creating his own techniques. Nor do I think that Naruto is an accurate indicator at all of Minato's genjutsu abilities as he's had so many confounding chakra control issues. I agree, they share the legendary guts, but after that the similarities start to break down.
2.) I am curious how Madara was able to put the Mizukage, a perfect Jinchuuriki under genjutsu, as according to Bee that's impossible. However, I wonder if he had partnership with it like Bee or just suppression like Naruto, which seems to make more sense. That's a big difference, and would explain things. Putting people like Konan or Yamato under genjutsu isn't that hard for Madara and his 3-tomoe Sharingan mastery, so I, personally, wouldn't read too much into it. I don't think a person's desire to avoid genjutsu counts for much when it comes to genjutsu defense either.
2b.) Whatever his EMS genjutsu was, I'm sure it was plenty strong along the lines of Sasuke's/Itachi's/Shisui's, but I have no idea where it ranks. I don't know why it should be better than Shisui's or Itachi's just because he was Madara. I think it probably depends on what type of ninja he was, like Sasuke/Itachi and Ameratsu/Tsukiyomi.
2c.) As for what Chiyo said, I believe she was referring to the optimal strategy as it's clear, via history, one can beat an Uchiha one on one, but in the event that one is caught in genjutsu, it's optimal to have a partner, etc. I didn't write the manga, that's just my take.
3.) The thing I don't like about this fight is that were talking about EMS Madara, and we don't even know what his four most powerful techniques are. Further, what about the space-time techniques? That's crazy because they're going to be his go to cards after the intro and Uchiha jutsu with Minato when they feel each other out.
Minato, all we've seem him do is a few of his fuuinjutsu and FTG with Rasengan in I guess were about two separate 5-10 minute fights, when we know that there's a good amount more there. I agree they're both tactically brilliant, so it's an interesting fight when we learn more about EMS Madara. Considering what the shell is, the whole is concerning...
4.) Basically, the situation is so cloudy with a lack of information currently, that I don't see how anyone can draw a conclusion on the facts. It seems like people are just relying on speculation, rumor, and hype. I guess, I like to make my decisions based on at least a modicum of information, and I don't feel comfortable making decisive decisions like these without them. Opinions, such as that it's reasonable to conclude EMS Madara may be stronger than Minato are OK, but not certainty ones such as the title, "Minato isn't stronger than EMS Madara."
Anyway, it's all good. You didn't have to explain yourself or anything, but it's cool that you did. We still disagree on some points, but let's just agree to amicably disagree on those for now.
Nice post btw.Peace
This should be a poster/sticky for all the vs threads, out there.Although,things changes after learning about people's new abilities,it still nearly impossible to determine a clear cut winner, especially when we talk about kage level fighters, unless of course they're in bad matchups.And us not knowing much about old madara makes it hard to hold onto something solid.So, all of this is just assumptions based on the few facts we know,rumors,hype,and references.
Btw, i was just emphasising on the genjutsu abilities of uchiha's ,hence the chiyo qoute.And the yagura story will be interesting.Good guess,another possibility could be they didn't know they were in a genjutsu,perhaps before it was too late.He could also have hit them at the same time,who knows...
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Guys we have seen everything minato is capable of. He showed us his all before he died. Madara on the other hand didnt and thats obvious.
So be reasonable when talking about minato.
If you think minato still could do better maybe thats just ur subconcious telling you hang on compared to other kages Minato isnt the most ridiculous.
Minato has he strenghts but everyone usally neglects his major weaknesses which is annoying from time to time. He isnt the well rounded shinobi as u might think.
ALso if you think madara didnt have time-space jutsu before now thats cool I guess, but theres nothing to say he didnt. Not sure where this came from, not like we question if the third hokage at the death god seal during his prime. Also the way any of his time-space jutsu are illusitrated particluary in the anime it appeasr to be sharingan related.
So be reasonable when talking about minato.
If you think minato still could do better maybe thats just ur subconcious telling you hang on compared to other kages Minato isnt the most ridiculous.
Minato has he strenghts but everyone usally neglects his major weaknesses which is annoying from time to time. He isnt the well rounded shinobi as u might think.
ALso if you think madara didnt have time-space jutsu before now thats cool I guess, but theres nothing to say he didnt. Not sure where this came from, not like we question if the third hokage at the death god seal during his prime. Also the way any of his time-space jutsu are illusitrated particluary in the anime it appeasr to be sharingan related.
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Thanks. I'm not averse to all versus threads, I actually enjoy them some depending on the match ups, but I like to make my choices based on reason. With the lack of knowledge (Top 4 doujutsu and possibility of space-time jutsu) about EMS Madara, it's sort of the extreme case, the ad nauseum of vs. threads if you will (not meaning it'll make you sick lol
).That's cool, regarding the Uchiha's and genjutsu; thus the Chiyo quote, I guessed but wasn't sure if that was the tie in.
Regarding Yagura the Mizukage, that's so classic Kishi. Mention one time the rules are broken, i.e. a perfect jinchuuriki controlled under genjutsu, and never bring it up again or ever explain it. Just leave it to the forums to work on it, lol. Sometimes, people on the forums do a better job exploring stuff like this, parallel power.
P.S. Thanks for distilling my thread, when you quoted it, you captured the best of it.
Peace
What's up Psukkar,
I'm not sure how you can argue that we've seen everything from Minato when he's never finished a battle in a flashback. We've seen him in the Kakashi Gaiden, against Madara, and a younger version against a younger version of the 4th Raikage. Nothing that was shown lasted continuously for more than about 5-10 minutes, and the combat was heavily focused on FTG I and taijutsu.
Only Kushina's flashback fight of Minato vs. Madara or the Kyuubi opened up Minato's ninja handbook some where we saw some fuuinjutsu and the Rasengan in action along with FTG II, but what major weaknesses did you see in those fights? Was it the weakness of his blows, including Rasengan, genjutsu, I'm not sure what you're referring to exactly, just curious. Further, from what we've been shown he's fairly well rounded in my mind though notably deficient in a few certain areas, casting genjutsu and strength are two that come to mind, don't know about stamina/chakra considering how short the fights were.
I think that's enough about Minato as I don't want a debate nor do I think that's the key issue of the thread. If you feel we know a sufficient amount about him that's different than knowing everything. Whether we agree or disagree really isn't important to the outcome of the thread, but I just happen to disagree that what we know is sufficient I suppose.
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What's the most important is what I think we agree on, namely that we know too little about EMS Madara. We don't know his four EMS techniques and whether he had his space-time technique then, etc. EMS Madara is too much of an uncertainty to draw a conclusion on regardless of what we know about Minato.
You have to know something about EMS Madara, otherwise even if you know every detail about Minato you're still just guessing based on EMS Madara's hype and reputation. Don't get me wrong he was strong as hell, but one major component to deciding matches in Naruto is the match up itself (see Gai vs. Kisame) and not just the overall strength of the opponent.
btw: What were you trying to say about Hiruzen and the DRS in his prime? Minato invented it as stated by Hiruzen to Orochimaru, so he couldn't have had it in his prime.
nice post btw.
Peace
Because it was battle to the death regardless if it was flashback. If minato had anything else than a rasengan and ftg he would have used it. Why hold back in a life death situation? We saw him against high level shinobi like maadra, bee, forth raikage. I think its easy say we have seen what minato can do.What's up Psukkar,
I'm not sure how you can argue that we've seen everything from Minato when he's never finished a battle in a flashback. We've seen him in the Kakashi Gaiden, against Madara, and a younger version against a younger version of the 4th Raikage. Nothing that was shown lasted continuously for more than about 5-10 minutes, and the combat was heavily focused on FTG I and taijutsu.
Only Kushina's flashback fight of Minato vs. Madara or the Kyuubi opened up Minato's ninja handbook some where we saw some fuuinjutsu and the Rasengan in action along with FTG II, but what major weaknesses did you see in those fights? Was it the weakness of his blows, including Rasengan, genjutsu, I'm not sure what you're referring to exactly, just curious. Further, from what we've been shown he's fairly well rounded in my mind though notably deficient in a few certain areas, casting genjutsu and strength are two that come to mind, don't know about stamina/chakra considering how short the fights were.
I think that's enough about Minato as I don't want a debate nor do I think that's the key issue of the thread. If you feel we know a sufficient amount about him that's different than knowing everything. Whether we agree or disagree really isn't important to the outcome of the thread, but I just happen to disagree that what we know is sufficient I suppose.
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What's the most important is what I think we agree on, namely that we know too little about EMS Madara. We don't know his four EMS techniques and whether he had his space-time technique then, etc. EMS Madara is too much of an uncertainty to draw a conclusion on regardless of what we know about Minato.
You have to know something about EMS Madara, otherwise even if you know every detail about Minato you're still just guessing based on EMS Madara's hype and reputation. Don't get me wrong he was strong as hell, but one major component to deciding matches in Naruto is the match up itself (see Gai vs. Kisame) and not just the overall strength of the opponent.
btw: What were you trying to say about Hiruzen and the DRS in his prime? Minato invented it as stated by Hiruzen to Orochimaru, so he couldn't have had it in his prime.
nice post btw.
Peace
Minato will always have this hype until guys adimit we have fully seen a full picture of minato' skills.
The other guys we know for certain we havwnt seen all their skills. For example, Like the 2nd/1st/3rd hokages, madara have big questions marks. We know for a fact theres more to come from those shinobi, eg 2nd hokage has good in time-space jutsu. 1st hokage took on madara(ems) + fox. 3rd hokage is said to be lot better in his prime by his summon,,etc etc...
Theres nothing to suggest there's anything else to expect from minato. But more importantly minato wont make anymore appearences in the manga anymore. I hightly doubt we will see him again. There's one chance we could see him and thats a rematch between A and minato as kages as this was hinted at the end of the most recent minato flashback.
Regarding the weaknesses I mentioned.
The key weaknesses of minato is his phyicsal strength which is an intresting condriction because taijutsu is key part of how fights. If the rasengan doesnt work he has limited options. Which isnt the case with the other kages we have seen.
Not willing to say hes weak to genjutsu because one key way to break genjutsu is noticing fine flaws in illusions(Note: reason why the sharingan helps the user in canceling genjutsu), something intellegenice plays a big role in and minato certainly has that.
Also minato relys alot on his time-space jutsu, doesnt have any strong elemental jutsu to speak of. And like I said before if does he would have used it in his death match with madara.
The way I see it minato doesnt have many options to attack. IF the rasengan fails then his most powerful attack cant help him. WHich is a big blow to his rasengan and ftg fighting style, dont get me wrong its is a great combo. But its based purely on the rasengan. And its not a massive rasengan or anything.
The reason why minato's arenal is quite small is because he died young. The sooner guys realise, the sooner guys wont hype him to point of saying things like hes the second strongest shinobi under the so6p.Which is total crap. There are kages ahead of minato as they have lived longer and have more nasty techs at there disposal as a result.
Rasengan and ftg arent the best techs in the ninja world. I Would have thought after all the kages we have seen revived shows that clearly. Minato regared has genius that dosent come around often in a generation. But people need to accept that his development was cut short tragegicly. So u can expect him to be the strongest out there.
The thing with death god and the third, I was just making a hypotheical example. I was just saying no one says for no reason maybe the third hokage didnt have dgt untill in his older days. But for some reason people think madara all of the sudden got time-space jutsu latt]er in his life, where we know nothing about madara to begin with. Its quite puzzling to me thats all.
Its actually far easier to speculate when the 3rd hokage learned the dgt than it is of saying when madara learned/obtained time-space jutsu. Speaking of madara there is one jutsu madara has I think he got after he stole hasihrama powers and thats his phase shift technique. But this something I have thoerised a while, not based on anything concrete.
These are just my opinions btw its okay to debate dude I wont hold anything agaist u with if disagree. No fun otherwise. I really think minato's skills are more or less fully revealed before the time of his untimely death.
I consider myself very fair to characters I try to be methodical as much as possible which comes easy to me because I dont have any favoute characters although I Like gai alot reminds me of DBZ and hes very unque.
Regarding who created the death god technique, we enought evidence to know this technique infact was created by the uzumaki clan.
The trade mark swirl left behind on the user belongs to the uzumaki clan which isn't too surprising, since they were wiped out because their specialty with sealing jutsu. Not to mention Uzumaki Kushina did say she taught the forth hokage sealing techniques who incidentally was the first person we saw use this technique. Also the Raikage speculated Minato would have learned the death god summoning from Uzumaki Kushina. (By the way the cloud village tried to kidnap Uzumaki Kushina).
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DigitalMonster
Active member
Regarding Minato and elemental jutsu, they would've been useless against Madara no matter their level. Even jutsu like Kirin and FRS would've been useless since he would've just phased out, and Minato knew he was only tangible when attacking. Thus, they went through their various exchanges at point blank range so Madara could attack and become tangible and create an opening. Thus, it is more of a tactical decision than an indicator of his arsenal. However, it's not a positive indicator either mind you.
Regarding the strength of his attacks, remember jutsu are just tools and the mastery of them determines their efficacy more so than their intrinsic damage. Personally, it seems to me people have fallen in line with the thinking that bigger is better, yet recently kishi showed via Naruto that a little recon and analysis combined with a simple Rasengan brought down the 3rd Raikage when the FRS, the Hachibi, etc. could not. Thus, even if we assume we've seen it all, we haven't seen how it gets used cleverly with minato's level of tactical analysis.
Also, one thing I've not seen or heard about any Edo Tensei Kage's is their guts either in their described history or present revival. I'm a subscriber to Jiraiya's view that guts and the will to never give up trump jutsu, which Minato has in spades, but I can see how that intangible quality is hard to incorporate when comparing Kages. It's not something printed on pages or molded with chakra so it doesn't always standout, but it's rare and more valuable than most will give credit for.
While Kushina did help Minato with Fuuinjutsu, she didn't teach him the DRS, FTG, nor the eight-trigrams version he used (I think she made a remark about that seal to Naruto though and her involvement), though I think she had input on the latter seal. Granted the DRS and Minato's Fuuinjutsu clearly incorporates Uzumaki ideas via Kushina as seen by the trademark Uzumaki swirl, but the DRS jutsu is clearly stated by Hiruzen as being created by Minato, so there shouldn't be any debate on that. I think Hiruzen learned it simply because he learned most of the Konoha jutsu as "the professor". As well, Kushina was a Jinchuuriki who could not perform the DRS jutsu, so no real reason to know it, granted she still could.
By the way, Kushina was kidnapped for her special chakra that resonated with the Kyuubi's, and it had nothing to do with Fuuinjutsu, so I'm not clear why that's brought up. That's the same reason that she was brought to Konoha.
Anyway, I'm running out stuff for Minato that I want to go over. I agree, we're not seeing him again for any reason in combat, but I can see something like the "two suns" appearence when Naruto fulfills some destiny or step. Hence, not too big a reason to linger unless we're doing a vs. thread. Nonetheless, a nice discussion.
P.S. If you want a total mystery put Hiruzen in his prime vs. EMS Madara with a poll, I'd love to see how people justify their decisions.
Peace
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Maina Deah
Active member
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Madara is weak during the time he fought the 4th but there's much to know about Minato as well. There's no possibilty which one is stronger.
Well I can I accept that not many attacks would work against madara. By the way a big rasengan is good for madara harder to miss him. And madara would have to be quicker in phasing. I bet this will be a stregedy naruto uses by suddenly making his rasengan bigger like he did in sage mode against Pain. But thats for another time.Regarding Minato and elemental jutsu, they would've been useless against Madara no matter their level. Even jutsu like Kirin and FRS would've been useless since he would've just phased out, and Minato knew he was only tangible when attacking. Thus, they went through their various exchanges at point blank range so Madara could attack and become tangible and create an opening. Thus, it is more of a tactical decision than an indicator of his arsenal. However, it's not a positive indicator either mind you.
Regarding the strength of his attacks, remember jutsu are just tools and the mastery of them determines their efficacy more so than their intrinsic damage. Personally, it seems to me people have fallen in line with the thinking that bigger is better, yet recently kishi showed via Naruto that a little recon and analysis combined with a simple Rasengan brought down the 3rd Raikage when the FRS, the Hachibi, etc. could not. Thus, even if we assume we've seen it all, we haven't seen how it gets used cleverly with minato's level of tactical analysis.
Also, one thing I've not seen or heard about any Edo Tensei Kage's is their guts either in their described history or present revival. I'm a subscriber to Jiraiya's view that guts and the will to never give up trump jutsu, which Minato has in spades, but I can see how that intangible quality is hard to incorporate when comparing Kages. It's not something printed on pages or molded with chakra so it doesn't always standout, but it's rare and more valuable than most will give credit for.
While Kushina did help Minato with Fuuinjutsu, she didn't teach him the DRS, FTG, nor the eight-trigrams version he used (I think she made a remark about that seal to Naruto though and her involvement), though I think she had input on the latter seal. Granted the DRS and Minato's Fuuinjutsu clearly incorporates Uzumaki ideas via Kushina as seen by the trademark Uzumaki swirl, but the DRS jutsu is clearly stated by Hiruzen as being created by Minato, so there shouldn't be any debate on that. I think Hiruzen learned it simply because he learned most of the Konoha jutsu as "the professor". As well, Kushina was a Jinchuuriki who could not perform the DRS jutsu, so no real reason to know it, granted she still could.
By the way, Kushina was kidnapped for her special chakra that resonated with the Kyuubi's, and it had nothing to do with Fuuinjutsu, so I'm not clear why that's brought up. That's the same reason that she was brought to Konoha.
Anyway, I'm running out stuff for Minato that I want to go over. I agree, we're not seeing him again for any reason in combat, but I can see something like the "two suns" appearence when Naruto fulfills some destiny or step. Hence, not too big a reason to linger unless we're doing a vs. thread. Nonetheless, a nice discussion.
P.S. If you want a total mystery put Hiruzen in his prime vs. EMS Madara with a poll, I'd love to see how people justify their decisions.
Peace
Tactics get u so far, I understand it helps but there a limits skikamaru is case in point. Even against Bee and A minato opted to used his ftg, ftg is a big part of how attacks. It his trademark. I guess we will wait for the series to end and see what we know what minato can and cant do. But I think we dont have to wait that long. Minato presence in the manga is all but tried up almost.
The raikages have shown guts, third raikage has guts on god level. 1 v 10000,
taking on tailed beast all to protect his village or his team. We havent seen many other examples of it from other kages but kages all have duty to protect their village which means guts incorpated inc lol. That should be a new slogan.
kakashitachi
Banned
its not that minato couldnt defeat madara which i believe he could of, but theres alot of different factors to why it didnt come a a W for the 4th. 1.) madara obviously had every move and step planned out to work in his favor. minato was caught off guard and did extremely well for someone who only had a few seconds/ minutes to make a counter strategy/attack. Especially againt madara..2.) I seen somebody say " if minato could of beat madara than he would of but he couldnt thats why he didnt." False! I honeslty feel like if he had the time to fight him without worrying about kushina naruto and not to the mention THE ****ING NINE TAILS THATS ATTACKING THE VILLAGE and all the side distractions than he would of but he was in a time crunch. He had alot of things to do and not enough time to do it so the outcome of the battle was a little rough. Nonetheless what other ninja could of single handedly dealt with all that the way he did? 3.) I also saw somebody say that madara wasnt at 100 % due to the battle wounds from the battle with Hashirama but as i recall Kishi said that the 4th was the strongest hokage so what does that say...dont even need to bother explaining any further but yea...think about it. Rep anyone haha nah jk
haha nah jkkakashitachi
Banned
but seriouslyits not that minato couldnt defeat madara which i believe he could of, but theres alot of different factors to why it didnt come a a W for the 4th. 1.) madara obviously had every move and step planned out to work in his favor. minato was caught off guard and did extremely well for someone who only had a few seconds/ minutes to make a counter strategy/attack. Especially againt madara..2.) I seen somebody say " if minato could of beat madara than he would of but he couldnt thats why he didnt." False! I honeslty feel like if he had the time to fight him without worrying about kushina naruto and not to the mention THE ****ING NINE TAILS THATS ATTACKING THE VILLAGE and all the side distractions than he would of but he was in a time crunch. He had alot of things to do and not enough time to do it so the outcome of the battle was a little rough. Nonetheless what other ninja could of single handedly dealt with all that the way he did? 3.) I also saw somebody say that madara wasnt at 100 % due to the battle wounds from the battle with Hashirama but as i recall Kishi said that the 4th was the strongest hokage so what does that say...dont even need to bother explaining any further but yea...think about it. Rep anyone
XD nuff said-but really stop comparing these guys together seriously, we have not seen minato fight a battle where he is going all out 100% no catching baby in mid air while marking tobi and coming back taking tobi control off the fox- and really? you use the word control to a point where you basically saying tobi was doing the jutsu for the fox, no he only bend the fox to his will basically hypnotize it to go wild nothing more; so there goes your theory on him fighting while telling the fox what to do >.>. And i thought in all of animation the one who runs admit defeat maybe things change with time i suppose.:no_ignore:
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~Naruto&Itachi~
Active member
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How would madara be weak from 1st hokage?!?!? That happen 2 or 3 decades before the fight....and to the guy who said Minato is weak you are sooo right I mean I bet they will give a flee order if they see pink haired Konoha female shinobi....SMH….You are dumb they were to flee on scene if they saw him
kakashitachi
Banned
Madara say's that his body is just a mere shell of his old self cause the 1st badly wounded him
PositiveEmotions
Active member
u say minato is weak wow dude u r mistaken throu out the whole manga we have not seen much of minato we know so little of him and from wut we have seen of him he is super fast and super smart his like itachi they both see weaknesses really quick
eyesofthekyuubi44
Active member
I'm with you if you say that Madara can't beat Minato in his current state.
I agree though, that if his battle with Minato was any indication of his strength, he WOULD be able to beat him in his prime.
Intelligence counts as an ability in battle. If Madara wasn't smart enough to warp a guy who was famous for his teleport technique the instant he touched him, then it's his fault. He also was dumb enough to let that Kunai slip through him as well.
Minato is better in this sense due to him being more intelligent. He won.
you miss read him, he was being sarcastic. read last sentence's again "minato was given the title run in sight if you saw him" he wasn't saying minato is weak (minato is faster than itachi by the way just saying.) remember yellow flash for a reason