[Game] SK-Tower Of God! The Great War!!! #28

[Michelle]

It was asleep. rn want to lynch Red, want Imp dead, Sus of AL but because of red AL is probably just town depending on Red’s flip so definitely want Red’s flip first. Poison I kinda want dead. I want Toujo dead but unsure if it’s because of alignment yet.

Can you Iso Alice and Glover and say your oppinion? They are low posters so it's easy.

 

[Tigerrr in the woods]

Just a reminder, i havent got any response from AL and those I mentioned to give their reads(except rej)

Hei I don.t think I got your mention. Next time just quote one of my posts if possible.
I saw your post when I saw reading through the thread some time ago but I.ve been enjoying my sunday.

I was really hoping DP1 will finish tomorrow but it.s in 6 hours.
I haven.t done any more isos nor caught up with the thread so i.m just gonna speak from what I have.
Order matters:

X- town lean

Michelle- lean town
@Michelle, I was under the impression you believe in bets during mafia games[this was mentioned in Rej.s game-correct me if I am wrong] Why did you make a bet with Al_sama?

Rej- feels ok
Ansa- also feels ok

Imp-I was leaning town but I haven.t seem him post recently. Not sure if he did last pages.

Houtarou-null. I would lean town for him but i felt fooled by him last game where he was mafia so i won.t trust myself much.

Luke-null-last time I checked he was still changing votes like he plans to vote for all 20 players by the end of DP But when I talk with him he seems genuine. I don.t know if I can read him

RYU-null. I haven.t isoes him yet but his vote on Toujo makes sense if he.s seen his play.
However I don.t personally like votes and reads based solely on playstyle So I need to check if he has other reasoning also.

@PK I mean I know it.s usual for him to post less but it.s been quite a long DP.

Red Glover- slightly scum lean i haven.t notice him postin long time? Not sure if he recently did. He said smth like let.s the fun begin and haven.t seen any fun from him. If I missed smth sorry.

Poison- she felt a hit off at begining and maybe reserved when she came back and was talking with X? But that's not much of a tell. It.s more like attitude?
I will see how she behaves. Nothing strong on her as of now.

Toujo - scum lean bc I felt he was pushing Michelle way to hard


@AL_sama- scum lean I.m very troubled by him honestly. I don.t know what to make of it.
I wasn.t suspecting him much until he said that his 'lazy' attitude was his strategy. I felt it came from an honest place but apparently not?
I would understand that town need to make strategies to defeat scum and I accept that. Also that it needs to stay a secret. But his strategy felt different that X's alliance.
I am quite paranoid about him right now. I haven.t checked if he posted anything more but at this point I don.t know if I can count on his posts.
Because when he said he had actually some sort of trap, it felt to me he admit his play was constructed and i feel i will never know when his play will become genuine then.
I felt his lazyness was genuine. And he was disinteredted in the game but no. It was a trap.
It feels this kind of trap let.s the hunter'Al_sama' free room to shade his voters.
I don.t know if it.s the truth though.

Also he mentioned to Michelle he loves this game and yet was saying he won.t fight back his voters and so....

So anyway i feel maybe the push for michelle had deeper reasons Why push her and then ask for her to trust him eventually? I think he ask her that if I remember well.
Like who asks for the trust of the person he scumleaned not until recently?
I mean I feel I could go on forever...and maybe it.s just pranoia I can.t tell rn.

---

I searched that post early in the morning because i knew there is one but didn't find it. I will answer now

He said he can't Iso, I provided him the post. What exactly do you want to say, in words please.

It feels he is making you carry his wait is what I mean. I don.t understand anymore if he is genuine about it or trying to establish some sort of relation with you.

 

[Tigerrr in the woods]

Ok gonna try to come late in the evening and update my reads if i feel necessary based on the last pages I haven.t gone through. I need to go now.

 

[TheLukundo]

Can you Iso Alice and Glover and say your oppinion? They are low posters so it's easy.

Alice seems really off. Way too commentating.

 

[TheLukundo]

last time I checked he was still changing votes like he plans to vote for all 20 players by the end of DP

And this is scummy?

 

[Michelle]

Tigerr like a kind of reverse psychology? (For the last sentence of the post 1442)

 

[TheLukundo]

Oi Gabi, what’s your read on X?

 

[Michelle]

Was Bee dropped from the face of the Earth? @beeboat you alive?

 

[Ansatsuken]

Tbh I want to sleep rn. So I'm afraid I'm going to miss EoD

So VoteLynch: Toujo

 

[Ansatsuken]

I'm going to stay with that vote. Bye now.

 

[AL_sama]

- What exactly are you implying?

red said it herself that she'll vote me if my lynch is set in stone

don't you think its to leave a way out for her and is a form of TMI

- I don't remember that you've said anything along my lines, did I miss anything?

sorry I didn't get you what do you mean??

- For what reason are you taking this approach? I've theorized that you could be independent. What's your take on that?

I m taking this approach cause of my mood and no I m town not an indie

I meant to say that you could learn from his debating skills, maybe your play-styles are just different though..

I m getting at something but I'll wait a bit more

 

[Michelle]

Is this not Alice normal behaviour.

yes, but no.
I need her to answer not anyone else.
Noted you, Ansa and Toujo interfering with my post where i specifically pinged her.

I am sorry, i read it just now, i was without internet and/or possibility to play because of my family trip.

I read it now and i agree with it.
I need to see how Alice and the thread reacted to it

thread didn't really react, or i didn't notice it? i saw Aether had an idea about her and not in town reading.

The biggest thing I want her to respond to is how she went from reading Luk town to voting for him. I want to see the posts and thought process there.

@Alice in Noodleland

also quoting a post i myself need more explanations about, how come he didn't shade me there?

To answer Michelle.

I think he genuinely wanted ro discover the connection between you and Luk.
And like what Ive told earlier ..he answered Directly without shading you nor Luk.
And Toujo is everywhere.

 

[Rej]

escape what?? I don't think I m getting lynched

that sounds confident lol

 

[Alice in Noodleland]

I am here.... I thought the EOD will be tomorrow morning.

Can anyone make a quick summarize.. I will try to read where I left off. I have extra work tonight but I will try to be here during the EOD.

 

[Michelle]

Spoiler: quotes about Al

On another note, I've seen most of the arguments against AL.
Starting with All_Red's ISO, nothing, in particular, struck me as a major red flag. However, I'm not sure why he's extraordinarily more passive and submissive than his usual self. I can even go as far as to say that he's yet to make a productive argument or engagement, so far. Something that I'd say a good player like AL is more capable of.
I think I can see an argument that he might be independent.
Also, lynching for information is certainly not the way to go, in my opinion. Not at any stage in the game. Although that might be an argument I can entertain on its own.

@Michelle let's start with the small but neat indicators on an "unreadable" player, following post is golden and AL's biggest credibility test
"I love this game" - defines the energy AL has and is reflective with his activity, the fact him being hard to read is underlined by the fact that he follows some mafia etiquette in this game, so this statement might be consistent and truthful, more inc
"I won't game throw" - This is one of those points that made me think he is NAI and could be scum, because AL is also a teamplayer and thus can bring the same energy forward as "good scum". But here I wanna see this statement in coherence with AL's other statements in the game. So also this statement is consistent.
"I am pretty clear on what I'm doing" - noone yet pushed against this statement of AL, and in a literal sense he is clear. Even from my standpoint it was clear that AL's approach on me was pushy and I understood why, even tho the timing with him being wagonomize and RGK bringing up the "easy lynch" argument earlier was quite toxic (scummy) looking. But what we want is to give AL the consistency check here.
"No, I'm not goofing around" - With a double emphasization on the negativity forms (no/not), underlining all his statements. And also this is truthful because AL is not trolling, not writing wallies.
If you now look at all his core statements made, also you see I started with his defense here, because it is selfreflecting AL in a way he wants to reflect his townyness which is okay.
Upon further ISO I can find more that is in coherence with what I said.

first of all AL's challenging attitude is consistent in rewind, check the yellow part.
His "giving no **** attitude" in the red post was one of many irritating points.
So my problem with AL is, on one hand he doesn't care about being lynched and on the other hand he does care about being lynched. Taking granted for what he said in his defense about passion and energy etc, I would first lean town on AL, a very unstable town lean.
I played with AL multiple times still I don't know how to read him. Sometimes scum AL is very misleading, I can't see this harmful intend, especially when he dropped consistent defenses that I can emphasize with.

I m more then confident that you're scum

yup I wasn't clear with my posts so if you scum read me for that its fine

let me ask all of you a question.. have any of you isoed red??
if yes than can you explain why is her only focus me and no one else??

your read accuracy is another weak point of yours, same as contradictions

boy I m clear on your style than anyone else in here
you're trying to be lowkey which I can let go
you're mulling on giving any sort of reads = scum rrej sign
you're being unable to read others = big fat lie cause you're good at reading
you avoided giving reads on me as far as possible and than changed them quite quickly = another scum rej sign
your voting RGK isn't something you'd do as town cause its clearly an easy pick
in short you're scum boy

then tell me what I would do as town

exact;y opposite of those things

this are the laziest reads about me that I have ever read, except some reads Ryu made about me
you just put yourself on that lazy level

On a side note @AL you've been so low on energy in your posts, and almost wanted to forfeit the game earlier. Why is that.?! Are you simply not motivated?
You've supposedly crossed paths with this Togu guy for many years now, maybe you should catch on some of his debating skills, no offense meant.

ok but you're scum
you didn't even try to deny any of my points boy

I don't know if Al is right, but I felt like his thought process on your tells was legit.

I put these quotes together to help me later, but I need more to read from Al, an explanation for his odd play this game until now would be interesting to receive, instead of 'i know what i'm doing'.

 

[Michelle]

I am here.... I thought the EOD will be tomorrow morning.

Can anyone make a quick summarize.. I will try to read where I left off. I have extra work tonight but I will try to be here during the EOD.

talking about Alice 2 posts above and she is here
Please answer at my post who includes a post from X

 

[Houtarou]

Toujo Your explanation for everything makes it sound malicious… I couldn’t object. When you put essay level arguments and over-explain everything, and I have zero issues with how you want to explain or approach your suspect but so far you've been only dragging the arguments with no proper conclusion to come... as if you're just trying to find a lynch target one way or another. This somehow bothers me quite much.

This post is worth cracking a laugh, to be honest.

Spoiler

To explain false potivies better, I have an example I think is handy. So, let's say you're looking for people whose first name begins with an "R". So you apply whatever criteria you need, and you get a list of people in an area whose name begins with R. Now let's say within that, you have one person who goes by the nickname "Ricky", but his actual name is "Mike". If your criteria catches "Ricky", you'll have someone who, while meeting the criteria you set out, doesn't actually have a name that begins with R. This is a false positive. If Ricky were to be his real name, though, this would be what we call a "True Positive".

Tying it back to me, while fallacies are inherently scummy, due to it being a tool scum are required to use at some point or other, there are plenty of false postivies that can be caught because the idea of a fallacy is to give the impression that the logic it is arguing in favour of is sound. As a result, it's not impossible that the one making use of this fallacy is also under the impression that the logic is sound. Hence why I call it out. Hence why, if I see it being used repeatedly by the same player after it has been called out, then it's more of a concern.

Does that make sense?

Not able to comprehend the contents of your post, for a moment, I was thrown into confusion. The important thing is, to me, in other words, the existence of this post is without any purpose but only to send players into loopholes. Something as absurd as this^ could even be count as townie? By the normal standards, I would say so it's impossible. Don't get me wrong, I'm not nitpicking you here but what you said in this post was confusing stuff that I'm not sure why would any townie will bother to write. I wouldn't.

I have no intention of refuting every argument you are making. But even you know that content of that above post is only valuable to throw some 'wrong shades' while trying to give word "Fallacy" a new meaning. Reasoning akin to that hardly qualifies as a fallacy but straight out gibberish.

Sigh. Last post on this for real this time. If this doesn't get through then I've no idea. I cannot
Red - Begging the Question fallacy. The conclusion, that my posts are designed to mislead town, is presented as one of the premises given for said conclusion. Clearly, the idea that the conclusion supports the conclusion is illogical.
Blue - Appeal to Logos. The conclusion made is that the Town at large will automatically make a conclusion, and this conclusion is not supported. Indeed, don't take my word for it. Simply reading the thread will establish that this by no means is how the Town has acted in this game. Forget not being supported, it is abjectly untrue. This is also a critique of my playstyle, which is useless for discerning my alignment.
Green - Loaded question fallacy. It makes an assumption on what I wanted, and then asks the question presuming that assumption to be true. The fact of the matter is, no I do not want that. If people don't want to read, in a text-based forum game centered around discussion and debate, then I can't help them. I would suggest that Mafia probably isn't the game for them.
Purple - Argumentum ad nauseam fallacy. It takes points that have already been addressed/conceded, and repackages them, to make them appear to be new information, and thus give the appearence of a stronger argument than what is actually presented. The quote below is where this was addressed/conceded.

Note - There have still been exactly 0 examples provided by Ryu to date, to support any of his claims.

See, you keep saying this, but I'm not seeing any effort in you actually pointing out why they are unnecessary. And don't get me wrong, I do believe there are a few in there that are unnecessary. I am overly wordy at the worst of times,

Well, being wordy isn't really all that bad but more like for what reason you're explaining so thoroughly? I've noticed while you may be over-analyze things, give a lot of thought, over-explain them I just couldn't find them any worth to this game from any angle... the only impression I've got from your posts is deception. ... Though that's what I thought, naturally.

First. Though you're well-versed in all sorts of trivial to high knowledge in the mafia, that what I believe from your gameplay at least. Exactly this gives me more reason to believe that you're purposely explaining things the way you're doing.... while over-explaining isn't bad at the same time your posts are crafted in the manner that may put the player into internal pressure either to not able continue the debate with you or either getting bad with their argument. Just get straight to the point, your posts are only good to pressure a player, your posts don't give me the impression of someone who wants to solve or feel curious about player alignment or their identity but more like you tryin' to put them under pressure... make them feel difficult to speak with so many words to counter, with so many arguments to go through.

We know you're trying to solve the game, but we don't know for what faction since so far you're not really that invested into scum hunting... while I'm receiving the impression of scum hunting from you but that's it you're only leaving behind a strong impression, not the results or anything.

You say I'm attatching more depth to something than it deserves, but fail to establish both that it is undeserving of this depth, and also why seeking to scratch beneath the surface of said posts is a bad thing. You complain I pointed towards Imperfection, and insist that there should have been things there that demanded my attention more, but fail to establish exactly why that is.

Your argument to Michelle speaks itself and points that undeserving depth you've put that argument into. I'm pretty sure you've planned to go a few rounds with Michelle if you survived this DP for the simple reason you're not giving Michelle a proper reading but like putting them on hold. I feel like you're observing other player's behavior to strike them when they make a slip up(A town mistakes), but you're not trying to appear too opportunistic.

And you're being oddly consistent about your reads. Like your reads so far neither received a promotion or any downgrade like you still believe your reads but moving on from them... let me ask how can you still consider someone scum and push another player at the same time.... doesn't this sound strangely odd to you?

 

[Michelle]

@Michelle, I was under the impression you believe in bets during mafia games[this was mentioned in Rej.s game-correct me if I am wrong] Why did you make a bet with Al_sama?

I don't really believe in bets. Not like Al accepting the bet makes me think he may be villager.

Musahi drawed by Inoue sensei, my current avatar, is my ava on 8 sites and i will provide proof for changing it in all of them if my read is wrong. Also, look at this drawing, to use it all over means i really like it, so i was that confident in my scum read for Al that i made the bet when Al mentioned the bet idea.
I still think he may be scum, but idk why and how come Rej's explanation made me think at 'what if i am wrong', so i am waiting for more content from Al.

Anyway, no matter my definitive read, if i was wrong at that point when i made that case, then my ava will be everywhere on my main accounts an image or gif choosen by Al.

I hope this answers at your question.

 

[Michelle]

I am grateful that people who can speak english talked itt about these things regarding Toujo's posts, Kyte and Houtarou

Alice seems really off. Way too commentating.

And Glover?

 

[AL_sama]

if I m not wrong toujp's vote is on imp right?? or is it ryu??