[Game] [FIN] Round 7- WWF Ruthless-Attitude Era Mafia Role-Playing Game(Match Begin)

[Odd]

First of all, congratulations town. Your play was on point.

Addressing your SK concerns @Odd, there was an original setup that was reviewed, discussed and agreed on. During the submission, the serial killer was designed as this.

~Serial Killer

Randy Orton

Ability

1. RKO - Unlimited Night Kill
2. 1x time bullet proof(passive)

Now, when the role PMs were created, I was under the impression that the overall balancing was done when we talked about all role changes in the submission (considering that's where most of the balancing discussion took place) and I was looking more for correct PM design and of course if something caught my attention, I would address it but I mostly reviewed the roles that were advised to change considering the other roles were approved. The SK was left as such in the balancing talks. That is my bad for not noticing the change to even kills. I 100% agree that the serial for this setup should have a kill every cycle.

As for the game itself, in my mind the approved game was the one running initially but as it was developing, I was confused about how everything was playing out. When we started asking questions in order to understand what was going on, was when we realized the setup has been changed. Ansa made those modifications because he thought it was for the betterment of the game. He wanted his game to be immensely successful so I do sympathize with the sentiment of his attempt to re-balance it according to what he thought was best but the result was that the game ended up being too chaotic.

I have a couple of more comments that I will express later.

Yep, I'm happy now. Thanks for addressing my concerns.

@Ansatsuken I understand it all now, as a host you only want the best experience for everyone involved. I've been in this spot myself. And you do what you gotta do

Post automatically merged: Mar 10, 2019

SK's Serial is very powerful. This is because anybody who visits the targeted player will be poisoned and die eventually. This means the Serial can take out multiple players in one go indirectly and it won't be easy to figure out that the Serial did it. The delayed kill also acts like an arsonist role which is more powerful than standard killing. The delayed kill ensures that the Serial can hide his existence for a longer period of time. The role is constructed in a way that it makes it hard for players to know that a Serial exists. By the time they know, it might very well be too late.


Your Serial is very weak because it did not have both odd and even day kills. It would make sense if the Mafia had odd night kills and the Serial had even night kills. This was not the case so the Serial is already weak in comparison to the mafia. This becomes worse because of the lack of odd day kill, the Serial will be a sitting duck for an entire cycle and he can do nothing by which he can further his win condition.

Post automatically merged: Mar 10, 2019

Keep all comments in the game thread lol, posting about the game in two places adds to the confusion. You should post your observations again.

I'll just post the short version of my observations, I'm not typing all of that out again

Town too stronk

 

[MadieV]

@Rohan

What do you think about these two Serial Killers. Between the two, Which one you think is more powerful? I took my inspiration from SoulKiller's SK role​

Spoiler: SoulKiller's Serial Killer

Teemo :
Serial Killer

You must be registered for see images

Gorilla Warfare (passive) : if teemo does not action during NP he becomes invisible. Making him appear innocent to investigations and untargetable . (does not save you from super kills)
Shroom : teemo can place one shroom on a player or yourself, any players who visit that “player” will get poisoned and die the following DP during the end. The shroom will last 2 NP’s .
Win condition : Simple… be the last man standing.

And​

Spoiler: Ansatsuken's Serial Killer

You must be registered for see images

"The Legendary Assassin"

Abilities

Active

Spoiler: Ansatsuken's Serial Killer

• RKO - Even Day Kill. Choose one player to kill at Day.

Passive​

• Shadow Assasin - you're Invisible If there is no activity coming from you.This ability makes you immune to all kind of killing attempt(except Superkill). You also are not available for any kind of investigation[Alignment Investigation, Role Investigation, Activity Investigation].

Wincon: Kill all the players and be the last man standing.

Note: Even Day Kill means you can only perform a kill in Even number's days. Example: Day second, Day fourth, Day sixth, Day eight and so on. Only in these days you can kill people. I will give you a call.

Note: But if you perform something, your information is available for investigation. Superkill can effects you.

I think that is not the correct way to look at this. You can most definitely take inspiration from your favorite hosts when it comes to game design (I always revisit novaselinenever's games considering his games have always been my absolute favorites) but you need to always consider how the role itself interacts with the other roles of your setup. It's not only "strong or weak" when it comes to roles, it's also interaction.

 

[Ansatsuken]

Town roles are too overpowered

The Rock protecting all townies, Mafia have nothing to counter that. This is uncomtested advantage

Its 1-shot ability bro. Superkill still can bypass that. Who say its uncontested lol

John Cena either wiping Mafia abilities or being an upgraded Dr for townies. 18 out of 19 chance of success and gaining large advantage for town. The reward far outweighing the risk

Its a 2-Shot ability depending on luck. Both "you cant see me" and AA are 2-Shot ability. I dont see a problem with that. You just make a fuss out of it

5 different Invest roles for Town, alomg with 3 others that have abilities that could be used as makeshift investigations

Only two invest roles(Mick and Bret). Kurt Angle can be pseudo Invest role along side Jeff Hardy. Stone Cold's Role Investigator is 1-shot.

And you never take into a consideration how host handle the information delivery. I make it vague as possible.

Mafia has zero invests and has to play the whole thing blind against several unkillables/unlynchables

Not including Mafia

• Only Randy and Trump are unkillable(not totally unkillable because Superkill still can kill them)
• Only Kurt Angle and Trump are Unlynchable. But Trump stop lynch is 1-shot. Kurt Unlynchable also 1-shot.

Big Show, Goldberg and Matt Hardy, 3 townies able to initiate their own lynches. Only one Evil has 1-shot unlynchable, All other evils have nothing that can fight against that

Lol this part doesn't make sense. I don't know how to respond to it correctly.

And do you think Matt player has a capability to attract mafia or SK to vote him first? And also risk losing his partner(Jeff Hardy). Town would lost big. What if town who's the first to votes Matt and Matt get lynched. 3 Townies gone and Wolves love to see that.

Mafia recruit having a 50/50 chance to fail, only by losing their strongest member first is the recruit guaranteed.

Mafia is strong enough already without the need to recruit. 3 games I've played Mafia were always with 4 Members.

Town having OP abilities means that Kurt Angle can double up the OP abilities while simultaneously being a makeshift invest

Do you think I will give the player OP ability? I know the limit. The Last ability I gave to him is passive ability.

Lita role having no deadline to use the lovers ability, therefore can actively choose to not become a negative utility. Town has no other negative utilities, also another makeshift invest

I dont see the problem with her ability. The player cant make any claim. I have warned them. So there is no makeshift invest. Sleeping was too scared to use it.

Gangrel role being the weakest in the game, Chris Jericho being the better roleblocker able to operate day or night

Ok

Serial Killer having no abilities on odd days

Good suggestion

Survivor role having two shots of unlynchable, that's 120 hours of game spent on a complete neutral

Do you even check the list? Trump only have 1x cancel lynch ability. Konno just give him another shot. I don't know the reason why she chose that as a gift but still suspecting Allred as Mafia.

It just keeps stacking up in Towns favour, the advantage they can generate from their roles and the ease at which they can do it is leagues above what Mafia and Serial Killer are able to do

Haha....Nope. Try harder.

 

[Odd]

Sometimes when you're hosting you get unexpected stuff like one of your important roles going inactive, or someone having extremely bad luck. This interferes with the whole infrastructure and threatens to collapse the setup that you've worked so hard on. One person going inactive can have a ripple effect that can end up with an invested player being punished for something out of their control. You do whatever you can to compensate for the people that are invested in your game

In order to maintain a quality game you have to make snap decisioms on the fly. I've introduced 'Hidden Mechanics' before. I've tampered with RNG, I've 'destroyed abilities' and put false info on the deads rolecards.
When you are host you have all the information, know all of the secrets, make all of the decisions, do all of the writeups, count all of the votes, answer the questions from sometimes dozens of players. If you need to adjust then that's what you do

 

[Ansatsuken]

SK's Serial is very powerful. This is because anybody who visits the targeted player will be poisoned and die eventually. This means the Serial can take out multiple players in one go indirectly and it won't be easy to figure out that the Serial did it. The delayed kill also acts like an arsonist role which is more powerful than standard killing. The delayed kill ensures that the Serial can hide his existence for a longer period of time. The role is constructed in a way that it makes it hard for players to know that a Serial exists. By the time they know, it might very well be too late.


Your Serial is very weak because it did not have both odd and even day kills. It would make sense if the Mafia had odd night kills and the Serial had even night kills. This was not the case so the Serial is already weak in comparison to the mafia. This becomes worse because of the lack of odd day kill, the Serial will be a sitting duck for an entire cycle and he can do nothing by which he can further his win condition.

Post automatically merged: Mar 10, 2019

Keep all comments in the game thread lol, posting about the game in two places adds to the confusion. You should post your observations again.

Nice explanation. That's a good idea ?

But that ability is some sort of gamble.

Post automatically merged: Mar 10, 2019

I meant I admit that Serial seriously underpowered compare to his original but not for mafia. True Mafia in this game is very powerful if the right players handle them.

And for mafia I think I need to give them some ability especially The Undertaker

 

[MadieV]

Sometimes when you're hosting you get unexpected stuff like one of your important roles going inactive, or someone having extremely bad luck. This interferes with the whole infrastructure and threatens to collapse the setup that you've worked so hard on. One person going inactive can have a ripple effect that can end up with an invested player being punished for something out of their control. You do whatever you can to compensate for the people that are invested in your game

In order to maintain a quality game you have to make snap decisioms on the fly. I've introduced 'Hidden Mechanics' before. I've tampered with RNG, I've 'destroyed abilities' and put false info on the deads rolecards.
When you are host you have all the information, know all of the secrets, make all of the decisions, do all of the writeups, count all of the votes, answer the questions from sometimes dozens of players. If you need to adjust then that's what you do

You must be registered for see images

 

[Odd]

Ansatsuken do you really still think your game was balanced? How about you take this criticism I'm giving you like a champ, learn from it.

I know an unbalanced game setup when I see one, the Mafia is extremely weak, the Town is extremely strong. That's the bottom line

 

[Rohan]

Sometimes when you're hosting you get unexpected stuff like one of your important roles going inactive, or someone having extremely bad luck. This interferes with the whole infrastructure and threatens to collapse the setup that you've worked so hard on. One person going inactive can have a ripple effect that can end up with an invested player being punished for something out of their control. You do whatever you can to compensate for the people that are invested in your game

In order to maintain a quality game you have to make snap decisioms on the fly. I've introduced 'Hidden Mechanics' before. I've tampered with RNG, I've 'destroyed abilities' and put false info on the deads rolecards.
When you are host you have all the information, know all of the secrets, make all of the decisions, do all of the writeups, count all of the votes, answer the questions from sometimes dozens of players. If you need to adjust then that's what you do

The bold is completely imbalanced.

You must be registered for see images

 

[Ansatsuken]

Ansatsuken do you really still think your game was balanced? How about you take this criticism I'm giving you like a champ, learn from it.

I know an unbalanced game setup when I see one, the Mafia is extremely weak, the Town is extremely strong. That's the bottom line

I never said my game was balanced but I dont agree when you said Mafia as a whole is very weak.

Post automatically merged: Mar 10, 2019

You managed to lynched them was not the sign that Mafia as a role is very weak. But the player who used them make them looked very weak.

 

[Odd]

The bold is completely imbalanced.

You must be registered for see images

2 out of my 3 Mafia decided not to show up to the game. Couldn't find subs, had an Executioner type that was putting in work about to get completely boned just because someone else was a no show. I did all of those things and I would do it all again

 

[Ansatsuken]

SoulKiller played great as mafia but Odd still can see the flaw and I thought 6thHokage managed to distance himself with SoulKiller but I'm so wrong.

 

[Michelle]

Odd, you could play active the game, posting normal and no one would suspect you. Like, even after i had the evidence of your role having a null answer at investigation, i didn't have anything else against you and i couldn't accuse you because no one would follow me.
But you started the game with a claim that your role is very important and used your ascendent as very good player to expect from us to follow your request. And we did this. But your low activity during the game had bad result at the final.
Of course you should kill each night in a game with 20 players. But you could change this with activity.

 

[Odd]

I never said my game was balanced but I dont agree when you said Mafia as a whole is very weak.

Post automatically merged: Mar 10, 2019

You managed to lynched them was not the sign that Mafia as a role is very weak. But the player who used them make them looked very weak.

They need Invest abilities, maybe some vote control. Some fake writeups, I want to give them stuff.
I agree that it is a strong squad with some nice stuff but then I look over at the townies and I'm like 'uh oh spaghetti-o's'

Me managing to lynch them was just because I'm spooky good/bad at this game sometimes, there wasn't a single ability involved with that. It was just me being ridiculous

 

[Rohan]

Sometimes when you're hosting you get unexpected stuff like one of your important roles going inactive, or someone having extremely bad luck. This interferes with the whole infrastructure and threatens to collapse the setup that you've worked so hard on. One person going inactive can have a ripple effect that can end up with an invested player being punished for something out of their control. You do whatever you can to compensate for the people that are invested in your game

In order to maintain a quality game you have to make snap decisioms on the fly. I've introduced 'Hidden Mechanics' before. I've tampered with RNG, I've 'destroyed abilities' and put false info on the deads rolecards.
When you are host you have all the information, know all of the secrets, make all of the decisions, do all of the writeups, count all of the votes, answer the questions from sometimes dozens of players. If you need to adjust then that's what you do

When it comes to inactivity yes it disrupts the game but as a host, you should not change anything while the game is running. By changing stuff you break the hosting rules by directly intervening in the game. It also leads to no positive benefit as it ends up making the game even more imbalanced.

" I've introduced 'Hidden Mechanics' before."

If you add hidden mechanics before the game starts it is fine. If you adding hidden mechanics after the game starts, you are directly interfering with the game as a host. This only ends up imbalancing the game even further and also breaks the rules.

" I've tampered with RNG"

RNG ensures that there is fairness involved in the distribution of roles. If you tamper with RNG, you are directly intervening in the game as a host.

"I've 'destroyed abilities'"

You cannot remove abilities as a game host because it counts as game host interference (I am repeating myself too much here). If you added an ability which can destroy abilities before the game started then it is acceptable.

"and put false info on the deads rolecards."

As a game host, you cannot lie to the players. All information you provide in the game thread must be true. This breaks a major hosting rule.
This declaration is shocking to be quite honest.

2 out of my 3 Mafia decided not to show up to the game. Couldn't find subs, had an Executioner type that was putting in work about to get completely boned just because someone else was a no show. I did all of those things and I would do it all again

What you did severely compromised the balance of your game. If the anti-town factions are inactive and you can't get subs, the best option would be to cancel the game and start a new game with a new setup entirely.

This guide gives good advice on what to do in such cases: https://animebase.me/threads/ddls-guide-to-hosting-role-madness-mafia-games.767731/, Read the 3- You are a computer (avoiding host interference during the game) and
5- How to deal with inactivity sections.

 

[Odd]

Odd, you could play active the game, posting normal and no one would suspect you. Like, even after i had the evidence of your role having a null answer at investigation, i didn't have anything else against you and i couldn't accuse you because no one would follow me.
But you started the game with a claim that your role is very important and used your ascendent as very good player to expect from us to follow your request. And we did this. But your low activity during the game had bad result at the final.
Of course you should kill each night in a game with 20 players. But you could change this with activity.

Yeah, I had to make that claim. You guys were totally going to CFD me on day 1. The CFD is currently my biggest weakness

I had a couple of nice fake claims in the oven too but then that thing about no claiming happened and I couldn't use them

And yeah, I wish I could have been there more. Done this, done that, you know how it is. Live by the sword, die by the sword

 

[Rohan]

What you did severely compromised the balance of your game. If the anti-town factions are inactive and you can't get subs, the best option would be to cancel the game and start a new game with a new setup entirely.

To add to this, the superior option is to make it a draw and give all factions in the game a victory. This ensures that the efforts of the other players are not wasted.

 

[Odd]

When it comes to inactivity yes it disrupts the game but as a host, you should not change anything while the game is running. By changing stuff you break the hosting rules by directly intervening in the game. It also leads to no positive benefit as it ends up making the game even more imbalanced.

" I've introduced 'Hidden Mechanics' before."

If you add hidden mechanics before the game starts it is fine. If you adding hidden mechanics after the game starts, you are directly interfering with the game as a host. This only ends up imbalancing the game even further and also breaks the rules.

" I've tampered with RNG"

RNG ensures that there is fairness involved in the distribution of roles. If you tamper with RNG, you are directly intervening in the game as a host.

"I've 'destroyed abilities'"

You cannot remove abilities as a game host because it counts as game host interference (I am repeating myself too much here). If you added an ability which can destroy abilities before the game started then it is acceptable.

"and put false info on the deads rolecards."

As a game host, you cannot lie to the players. All information you provide in the game thread must be true. This breaks a major hosting rule.
This declaration is shocking to be quite honest.



What you did severely compromised the balance of your game. If the anti-town factions are inactive and you can't get subs, the best option would be to cancel the game and start a new game with a new setup entirely.

This guide gives good advice on what to do in such cases: https://animebase.me/threads/ddls-guide-to-hosting-role-madness-mafia-games.767731/, Read the 3- You are a computer (avoiding host interference during the game) and
5- How to deal with inactivity sections.

Spare me the lecture Rohan, the afkers destroyed my game balance, I simply created a new balance without alerting the players as to what was hapening. I did it all under the supervision of my game coach too, it was all done respectfuly and discretely

Post automatically merged: Mar 10, 2019

To add to this, the superior option is to make it a draw and give all factions in the game a victory. This ensures that the efforts of the other players are not wasted.

In my world a draw means that everybody loses, I would rather lose 100 games over getting a draw in one

 

[MadieV]

They need Invest abilities, maybe some vote control. Some fake writeups, I want to give them stuff.
I agree that it is a strong squad with some nice stuff but then I look over at the townies and I'm like 'uh oh spaghetti-o's'

Me managing to lynch them was just because I'm spooky good/bad at this game sometimes, there wasn't a single ability involved with that. It was just me being ridiculous

I do agree on first look the modified setup looks town tilted but it's also worth noting that mafia could've had hit the jackpot endlessly as well. 1 sibling role (take 1, get the other one free). Lita would've turned into a mafia member had she targeted mafia. If not, antother take 1 and get the other free with whoever she connected. Had John Cena targeted soulkiller, he would've died so that would've been an extra kill for mafia. Had the cop targeted the vig at night, he would've been killed. All that, plus one recruit + 4 members and their abilities.

 

[Ansatsuken]

They need Invest abilities, maybe some vote control. Some fake writeups, I want to give them stuff.
I agree that it is a strong squad with some nice stuff but then I look over at the townies and I'm like 'uh oh spaghetti-o's'

Me managing to lynch them was just because I'm spooky good/bad at this game sometimes, there wasn't a single ability involved with that. It was just me being ridiculous

Haha..you think townie is that strong. They are lucky that Pathetic went Mia

If that is not the case, Paul Bearer can give 1 more shot to Kane's night superkill. Make it Night Superkill(x2). He still have one more blessing power to give Kane one more shot to either his Night Superkill or Day Superkill. If Kane ask to add one more shot to his Night Superkill, that makes it Night Superkill (3x).

So Kane have Night Superkill (3x) and Day Superkill(1x)

Yes I agree that gangral needs both phase roleblock.

And I never saw any Mafia team before with two of its member and excluding Godfather had 1-Shot Bullet Proof ability. I just want to give Kane unlimited Immunity tbh but I think that's to overpowered and unbalanced. In original setup Kane is immune to any killing attempt unlimited times

Yes I agree with invest ability

 

[Odd]

SoulKiller played great as mafia but Odd still can see the flaw and I thought 6thHokage managed to distance himself with SoulKiller but I'm so wrong.

@SoulKiller was great, his only mistake was coming after me too early. The next day would have been the best time for him to take me down.

But I happen to have the the craziest luck in this game, mix that with the mad skills and you end up with me. The wildest of the wild cards

Post automatically merged: Mar 10, 2019

I do agree on first look the modified setup looks town tilted but it's also worth noting that mafia could've had hit the jackpot endlessly as well. 1 sibling role (take 1, get the other one free). Lita would've turned into a mafia member had she targeted mafia. If not, antother take 1 and get the other free with whoever she connected. Had John Cena targeted soulkiller, he would've died so that would've been an extra kill for mafia. Had the cop targeted the vig at night, he would've been killed. All that, plus one recruit + 4 members and their abilities.

Mafia can't be that lucky because I was also in the game, absorbing all of the luck