The problems​ with "Naruto w/out Kurama" arguments

chaos control

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He wouldn't be on Sasuke's level with that but he would still be OP.

Sasuke wouldn't be on Sasuke's level. Remember, these changes would affect Sasuke's history too. We'd likely see no MS and no rinnegan Sasuke. He'd probably be more like the copy ninja Sasuke or the genjutsu master Sasuke or something like that.
 

Marin

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I'm glad somoen else pays proper attention to this. :)
 

chaos control

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Absolutely wrong since Naruto's reserves were initally increase by kuramas chakra leaking in and based in that his current level was 4×. Kakashi has no way of separating the 2 since the 4ths seal was designed to add kuramas chakra to his over time. And with kuramas power ie as Naruto draws on it it could be 100 times. I suggest you re-read the manga and leave your fanfiction at the door.

You yourself admit to this truth(kuramas chakra mizing with Naruto's) yet deny it now.

Yeah it's true that Kurama's leakage increased Naruto's reserves, but we don't know by how much though. For all we know, Kurama-less Naruto's reserves could have been right at Kakashi's level. One's individual chakara reserves increase over time as well. I'm not denying anything. I'm just abstaining from making stupid assumptions.
 

Exaar

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Naruto without kurama kills both Naruto & Sasuke, Assuming they die in their fight against Haku.
Even if they make it past Zabuza/Haku without kurama, They 100% die against Gaara, who would've killed Naruto, Sasuke & sakura.

So both Naruto and Sasuke would've died as fodder.
 

chaos control

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Naruto without kurama kills both Naruto & Sasuke, Assuming they die in their fight against Haku.
Even if they make it past Zabuza/Haku without kurama, They 100% die against Gaara, who would've killed Naruto, Sasuke & sakura.

So both Naruto and Sasuke would've died as fodder.

Exactly!! (Assuming that all else about the series remains the same).
 

salamander uchiha

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Yeah it's true that Kurama's leakage increased Naruto's reserves, but we don't know by how much though. For all we know, Kurama-less Naruto's reserves could have been right at Kakashi's level. One's individual chakara reserves increase over time as well. I'm not denying anything. I'm just abstaining from making stupid assumptions.

That may be fine for you but I'm bring neutral and giving him average iruka/kakashi level reserves. Narutos chakra is largely to do with his stamina which stems from kurama's abilities if endurance healing. I wouldn't be surprised if Narutos jutsu are stronger because of it. Anyway I'm also basing it on Narutos inability to summon a toad even after Jiraiya removed Orochimaru's seal. Also during Jiraiya's training he weakened the seal a lot further increasing the mixture and drawing ability. It is afywr that Kakashi comment on Naruto's reserves.
 

Warlocks

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"Can I have that chakra you gathered for me, Kurama?''

Yeah, right you are...

sasuke used 8.5 biju yet still lost to exhausted naruto who only had exhausted kurama smh..................
 

salamander uchiha

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sasuke used 8.5 biju yet still lost to exhausted naruto who only had exhausted kurama smh..................

Nice fanfic Sasuke borrowed power from near drained 8.5 beasts to launch Indra's arrow since he was near drained after his battle. He took power from Tailed beasts who had battled since the beginning against everyone and housed 2 jyubi him and Kaguya based used up their power.
 

chaos control

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That may be fine for you but I'm bring neutral and giving him average iruka/kakashi level reserves. Narutos chakra is largely to do with his stamina which stems from kurama's abilities if endurance healing. I wouldn't be surprised if Narutos jutsu are stronger because of it. Anyway I'm also basing it on Narutos inability to summon a toad even after Jiraiya removed Orochimaru's seal. Also during Jiraiya's training he weakened the seal a lot further increasing the mixture and drawing ability. It is afywr that Kakashi comment on Naruto's reserves.

I respect your neutrality and your basing it off of things, but in the end, we still don't know exactly how much of the growth of Naruto's chakara reserves over the years was due to Kurama leakage, and how much was due to aging/training.
Also, you mentioned Naruto's inability to summon a toad, but if I am thinking of the same scene as you, then that was part 1 Naruto. Kids of that age usually don't have the chakara in the first place to summon something like Gamabunta. Even so, the same part 1 Naruto ultimately did manage to summon Gamabunta while just using normal blue chakara (as seen against Gaara).

Anyway, I already acknowledged in the OP that his reserves wouldn't be massive. I just don't think they would be so extremely fodder as you make them out to be.

As another point that I haven't touched on: Naruto and Sasuke would still be transmigrants even in the alternate reality (as long as Madara died before Naruto and Sasuke were born). I can't say for certain, but Asura's chakara might still come into play.
 

Styles

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Sasuke wouldn't be on Sasuke's level. Remember, these changes would affect Sasuke's history too. We'd likely see no MS and no rinnegan Sasuke. He'd probably be more like the copy ninja Sasuke or the genjutsu master Sasuke or something like that.

The Uchiha was still planning a coup before Minato was even a kage tho if i remember correctly. So everything in Sasuke's life would have still happened. Only difference is maybe it would have taken longer since the 9 tails attack wouldn't have happened.

Tho if not Sasuke would still have Fugaku Itachi probably even Shisui to train him while learning more Uchiha jutsu's and even the forbidden one's like Izanagi/Izanami etc.
 

Warlocks

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Quite easily because Naruto with kyubi chakra was only 2-4 times kakashi. His chakra would be a fraction of that and I'm being generous by giving him average chakra reserves. Now leave your fanfic at the door Naruto couldn't even summon a toad without Kurama's chakra.

wrong
Naruto without kyubi chakra was 4 times kakashi
Naruto with kyubi chakra was 100 times kakashi
You must be registered for see images
 

chaos control

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The Uchiha was still planning a coup before Minato was even a kage tho if i remember correctly. So everything in Sasuke's life would have still happened. Only difference is maybe it would have taken longer since the 9 tails attack wouldn't have happened.

Tho if not Sasuke would still have Fugaku Itachi probably even Shisui to train him while learning more Uchiha jutsu's and even the forbidden one's like Izanagi/Izanami etc.

There was unrest in the Uchiha before Kurama's attack due to Tobirama sectioning them away from the village, but I don't think it was full on coup level yet. I think being blamed for Kurama's attack was the final straw. Even if I am remembering incorrectly, it is possible that Minato could have done something about the coup (something much more peaceful than genocide).

You are right however about Sasuke having family members to train with.
 

Warlocks

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Nice fanfic Sasuke borrowed power from near drained 8.5 beasts to launch Indra's arrow since he was near drained after his battle. He took power from Tailed beasts who had battled since the beginning against everyone and housed 2 jyubi him and .

so everything is fanfic
where did u got near drained 8.5 beasts from smh..............
Kaguya based used up their power
u remember that but u forgot that kaguya absorb all chakra from people and not only she did restore all of biju chakra +she also buffed it
 
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Nick01

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All I know is he'd still be >>> Sasuke. U_U

Btw, I didn't read...
Of course.
I found quite hypocritical of sasuke's fans downplaying and making fun of naruto for having kurama as source of outside power and yet they completely egnore the fact that their fav got countless more free power-up through the story.
What did you expect? That's Sauce faps for ya.
Naruto is nothing without kyuubi

Yet you can't prove that.

OT :
I agree. Very nice thread. Still seems people are too butthurt and salty to make sense of something so obvious.

The fact that they try making excuses regarding Kurama shows how insecure they are.

Naruto w/o Kurama can't be used in debates and is pointless because such a thing doesn't exist.
 

Azarath Metrion Zinthos

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I never mentioned chakara control. I mentioned chakara reserves. Even when it comes to chakara control, it's only canon Naruto that had trouble with it (and that was due to Kurama). Alternate reality Naruto had different training, different trainers, and he never had Kurama to begin with, so we don't know how his control is.
We can at least gauge it though. When Kurama wasn't disturbing his chakra control, he was at least above average. And with his mastery over Kurama and his chakra, he could easily be recognized to be at kage-level tier.

So I would say, a Naruto starting out w/o Kurama would be fairly decent. Maybe on Sasuke's level, but he wouldn't reach any level above MS Sasuke.

Then again, I'm just speculating like how this whole thread was made under that premise. :th:
 

Azarath Metrion Zinthos

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Of course.

What did you expect? That's Sauce faps for ya.


Yet you can't prove that.

OT :
I agree. Very nice thread. Still seems people are too butthurt and salty to make sense of something so obvious.

The fact that they try making excuses regarding Kurama shows how insecure they are.

Naruto w/o Kurama can't be used in debates and is pointless because such a thing doesn't exist.
Chill bro... We understand quite well how Kurama encompasses 70% of Naruto's skill, and how taking away Kurama would instantly put him in a tier that is so low compared to Sasuke, and how he depends on Kurama for information when he's slacking in battle and doesn't pay attention to important details.
 

Mori Jin

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Nice thread OP, it would be a completely different story with completely different power sets. Heck I doubt Naruto would work as hard as he did cause he doesn't really need the acknowledgment of the village if his parents were alive and he wasn't a Jinchuuriki. Sasuke would be in a similar situation, he wouldn't be an "avenger" and wouldn't run of to orochimaru.

Anyway ignore the Sasuke fanboy trolls, logic doesn't work with them. You don't need to convince them of anything nor do you need them to agree.

Naruto with or without Kurama will always be the winner in end and that's a fact.
 
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whiteboy2345

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Whenever someone says Naruto would be nothing without Kurama, people bring up the whole idea that Kishimoto would make them equal.

Naruto fans always ignore the fact that Naruto cannot beat Sasuke without Kurama. SM is not enough to beat Rinnegan Sasuke.
 

SenseiSama

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Whenever someone says Naruto would be nothing without Kurama, people bring up the whole idea that Kishimoto would make them equal.

Naruto fans always ignore the fact that Naruto cannot beat Sasuke without Kurama. SM is not enough to beat Rinnegan Sasuke.

So by your argument Sasuke can't beat Naruto without Itachi's eyes.
 
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