Madara vs Hagoromo

[Holy God]

That still dont explain to us why Sasuke with PS and Naruto with Clones and diversion tactic never tried to approached it earlier if Sasuke think it easier to deal with. It bcus they unsure what will came out after witnessing what Rabbit Juubi capable of doing.

They didn't approach it earlier because it attacked them before they tried to. It's still been implied, by both actions and words, that it is easier to defeat.

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

Exactly, they are different scenarios. Hagoromo didn't have to use his life because he never brought anyone back to life. You can't compare the two uses.

nagato died restoring souls while hagoromoo didn't. That's what I'm trying to tell you. Granted nagato already had former bodies their souls can return to, nagato died bring back the souls from the afterlife while hagoromoo didn't.

Hagoromo has some form of Six Paths Sage chakra, but it isn't the Tailed Beasts' exactly. Literally nothing points to him having the "power of Rinne" before becoming a host. Nobody even knows what that actually refers to.

You do realize that Hagoromoo created the tailed beasts right? And that it was their chakra combined with indra and ashura that summoned hagoromoo's chakra to the real word, right?
How do you not have the chakra of what you created? And Six path sagemode originated from the jyubi.

 

[Holy God]

nagato died restoring souls while hagoromoo didn't. That's what I'm trying to tell you. Granted nagato already had former bodies their souls can return to, nagato died bring back the souls from the afterlife while hagoromoo didn't.

Nagato returned the souls to bodies. Hagoromo didn't. That's the main difference here. You have to exchange life for life, and Hagoromo didn't bring anyone to life.

You do realize that Hagoromoo created the tailed beasts right? And that it was their chakra combined with indra and ashura that summoned hagoromoo's chakra to the real word, right?
How do you not have the chakra of what you created? And Six path sagemode originated from the jyubi.

Hagoromo created them from the Ten-Tails' chakra, and before being a host, he did not have that. It was only Kurama's chakra needed for Hagoromo's summoning, but that was just something he setup anyways.

 

[SenseiSama]

Why do you believe that? Let's assume Madara can use Sharingan powers here, since I know you believe otherwise.

Ok I may have exaggerated a bit but Madara definitely can't beat him 1v1. As the original wielder of Rinnegan and someone that was born with Kaguya's chakra his power would logically be on a whole different level.

Transmigrants possessed EMS and Mokuton SM/BSM but their power was still a level below Indra and Ashura's full power, same logic would apply to Hagoromo's power.

 

[Holy God]

Ok I may have exaggerated a bit but Madara definitely can't beat him 1v1. As the original wielder of Rinnegan and someone that was born with Kaguya's chakra his power would logically be on a whole different level.

Transmigrants possessed EMS and Mokuton SM/BSM but their power was still a level below Indra and Ashura's full power, same logic would apply to Hagoromo's power.

I've already addressed those two points in my thread.

Spoiler

Hagoromo is the original wielder of the Rinnegan and mastered it

Being the original wielder means absolutely nothing. Kaguya was the original wielder of the Byakugan and yet the Hyuuga clan have made better use of it. Furthermore, Hagoromo is not factually stated to have mastered the Rinnegan.

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Madara's chakra is more powerful

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[SenseiSama]

Quite frankly, if we exclude the Rinnegan, Madara's Rikudou Sage Mode seemed less refined than Naruto's who exhibited superior usage over the Bijuu's chakra and continued to absorb preternatural amounts of Natural Energy as well. I'd be genuinely baffled if Madara's RSM was more complete than Naruto's let alone Hagoromo's.

Exactly this, having the Juubi's power does not mean having Hagoromo's power, just look at JJ Obito who got beat by teenagers that only possessed a fraction of Indra and Ashura's full abilities.

JJ Madara was reaching close to Hagoromo but that does not equate to being on equal grounds with him let alone above him, Kaguya was able to take over Madara but not the Sage because of the difference between their power.

 

[Uzumaki sensei]

I would say so.

Spoiler

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doesnt mean much the ten tails wasnt even in its final form when it was made into a jin by obito

 

[Holy God]

doesnt mean much the ten tails wasnt even in its final form when it was made into a jin by obito

Yes it was. The evolution beyond that would be the Holy Tree, which only can absorb chakra.

 

[Ansatsuken]

It possible for Hagoromo to unlock Rinn Sharingan or in other words get the same set of power as 3 eyes JJ Madara.

He always will be above JJ Madara.

According to Sasuke Kaguya chakra level after she absorb IT chakra far above JJ Madara.

If we use their standard/normal stats:-

JJ Hagoromo - Hagoromo chakra level + Juubi chakra level

JJ Madara - Madara charka level + Juubi charka level

In this case normal Hagoromo sure having more charka than normal Madara. Base from that JJ Hagoromo sure having more chakra than JJ Madara.

Chakra level

For standard chakra level(without any chakra absorption) = JJ Hagoromo takes this.

Fighting mastery

For fighting capability/mastery = JJ Madara takes this but I think not by large margin.

Skill/mastery with abilities

For the skill/mastey in using their abilities = JJ Hagoromo takes this.

Overall - JJ Hagoromo takes this battle

 

[Holy God]

Skill/mastery with abilities

For the skill/mastey in using their abilities = JJ Hagoromo takes this.

And what are you basing this off of?

The misconception here is that you think you know all thing about Host Hagoromo and non-Host Hagoromo and also past event inside out when the old man is nearly featless. Assumption with weak logic and support wont help you M8

To be fair I will not Rank Hago or Hamura in any ranking here and there, so are Indra and Ashura.

 

[Ansatsuken]

And what are you basing this off of?

It base on what he capable of from his long experience as the first Rinnegan user and the first JJ.

Even-though I don't know much/in detail about him but from his display of feats (creating seals, giving power up, calling down soul, splitting Juubi etc etc) suggest that JJ Madara as a new and inexperience user of Rinnegan and Juubi power still have mountain to climb if we going by his display of feats.

At least some of it can be used as inference

 

[NarutoX28]

I thought you'd bring up this page. The Tailed Beasts are still combined then though in a massive blob. Even if he could use them independently, it's not his style, just like Kaguya who I believe you'd agree has a better Sage Mode than Naruto.

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, and this only runs true for you if he really is unable to, but that isn't confirmed either way.

He should be able to because the entities are still present regardless of whether or not they have formed the Juubi. Him having the Shinju does not prove anything as he does not have complete mastery over the Shinju's power as Kaguya exhibited. Regardless, Kaguya has shown a more refined usage of RSM via Planetary Gudoudama while Hagoromo did by undergoing Juubi extraction and utilizing COAT with a waning lifeforce.

I wasn't saying he is unable to absorb anymore chakra. I was saying it'd be useless for him to amass any since he never ran low like Naruto and Kaguya. Like above though, it isn't confirmed if he can or can't collect nature energy, but Kaguya didn't either. I can't see what'd make you believe they'd be unable to though.

That's irrelevant. Madara attempted to absorb chakra to obtain even more power. Kaguya attempted to do the same thing against Naruto/Sasuke and Hagoromo/Hamura in spite of her insurmountable chakra. The same principle would apply to Natural Energy and if Madara could've done so to obtain even greater power, he would've done so.

Kaguya likely could, she exhibited perfect usage of chakra absorption via Tsukyomi and her Planetary Gudoudama also outstrips anything RSM Naruto is capable of doing. Madara has not performed such feats and his attempt at harnessing an external power source caused Madara to implode. I fail to see why Madara would be able to accomplish such a feat other than your erroneous judgements that aren't substantiated by anything.

List accomplishments that Madara has done (w/ RSM) that surpasses Naruto's and perhaps I'd be more willing to believe you.

 

[Holy God]

It base on what he capable of from his long experience as the first Rinnegan user and the first JJ.

Even-though I don't know much/in detail about him but from his display of feats (creating seals, giving power up, calling down soul, splitting Juubi etc etc) suggest that JJ Madara as a new and inexperience user of Rinnegan and Juubi power still have mountain to climb if we going by his display of feats.

I have to disagree with this one. Madara is not new or inexperienced with the Rinnegan, and he is confirmed a master of it in the Databook. Two of the feats you mentioned have also been done by people with lack of experience: Obito giving his power away and Sasuke combining chakra (said to be the exact reverse of Hagoromo's doings). I don't believe that kind of system for ranking works anyways. You'd have to be far more considerate.

 

[SenseiSama]

I've already addressed those two points in my thread.

Spoiler

Hagoromo is the original wielder of the Rinnegan and mastered it

Being the original wielder means absolutely nothing. Kaguya was the original wielder of the Byakugan and yet the Hyuuga clan have made better use of it. Furthermore, Hagoromo is not factually stated to have mastered the Rinnegan.

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Madara's chakra is more powerful

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Madara's chakra isn't more powerful because Hagoromo also possessed Shinju chakra, manga explained that Kaguya's children inherited her chakra when they were born.

In addition to that he has already proven to have the stronger body based on the fact he was able to resist Kaguya's power whilst Madara wasn't, and also the fact an Ashura incarnate with Six Path Senjutsu could control more amounts of energy than Madara.

Furthermore, you forgot to address the most important issue which is genes, being a direct descendant of Kaguya and original owner of the Rinnegan automatically makes Hagoromo the superior dojutsu user, it's why you also see Indra and Ashura possessing powers way above what their descendants inherited, stronger genes = more power and ability.

 

[Holy God]

He should be able to because the entities are still present regardless of whether or not they have formed the Juubi. Him having the Shinju does not prove anything as he does not have complete mastery over the Shinju's power as Kaguya exhibited. Regardless, Kaguya has shown a more refined usage of RSM via Planetary Gudoudama while Hagoromo did by undergoing Juubi extraction and utilizing COAT with a waning lifeforce.

The Holy Tree gave him the ability to use a Bloodline Limit he didn't have prior and the Databook says he has the ability to return all chakra to himself, which is what Kaguya did. Hagoromo's limited state was caused by the extraction of the Tailed Beasts. He didn't use Creation Of All Things, or anything else for that matter after it.

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That's irrelevant. Madara attempted to absorb chakra to obtain even more power. Kaguya attempted to do the same thing against Naruto/Sasuke and Hagoromo/Hamura in spite of her insurmountable chakra. The same principle would apply to Natural Energy and if Madara could've done so to obtain even greater power, he would've done so.

Kaguya likely could, she exhibited perfect usage of chakra absorption via Tsukyomi and her Planetary Gudoudama also outstrips anything RSM Naruto is capable of doing. Madara has not performed such feats and his attempt at harnessing an external power source caused Madara to implode. I fail to see why Madara would be able to accomplish such a feat other than your erroneous judgements that aren't substantiated by anything.

List accomplishments that Madara has done (w/ RSM) that surpasses Naruto's and perhaps I'd be more willing to believe you.

That's a hypothetical situation that can't be judged by us. Kaguya only absorbed chakra once, and that was in order to normalize herself. If you're talking about trying to absorb her opponents' chakra, that has to do with the complex that all chakra belongs to her. Likewise, Madara had the ability to control the chakra of everyone under Infinite Tsukuyomi but didn't. Madara's explosion was caused by Black Zetsu making him unable to control his body, so he ended up like Obito.

Obviously Madara's Sage Mode feats are limited because that doesn't fit in with his character and he's never trained to be a sage. At best he's used a Sage Art technique and also used Yin Style to create form from nothing. Similar but opposite to you however, I'd be baffled if Madara's Sage Mode was less complete than Naruto's for the simple portrayal of his outfit surpassing Hagoromo's.

 

[Ansatsuken]

I have to disagree with this one. Madara is not new or inexperienced with the Rinnegan, and he is confirmed a master of it in the Databook. Two of the feats you mentioned have also been done by people with lack of experience: Obito giving his power away and Sasuke combining chakra (said to be the exact reverse of Hagoromo's doings). I don't believe that kind of system for ranking works anyways. You'd have to be far more considerate.

Most of the feats were not refine enough unlike what Hago does and it takes time to perfect it

-Obito not giving up power to someone the way Hago did but he combine his ethereal/spirit body and charka with Kakashi.

-Sasuke just absorbing mass quantity of chakra and shape it into still non-living entity.

But here we have Juubi jin Hagoromo vs Juubi jin Madara

Logically speaking Hagoromo had more years of living time to master his Rinnegan as he had it since his birth (please dont believe SP filler shit) while Madara when he getting too old to experimenting.

If we go with distance of year Hagoromo was 7 years ahead of Madara in Rinnegan mastery. Wild guess.

You cant go further than the known feats means you can only give JJ Madara his Rinnegan feats(Limbo) and basic Rinnegan abilities that Nagato and all Rinnegan users should know and have. It's no brainier to say Hagoromo cant perform Six Path power of Rinnegan.

And now we add into Hagoromo's resume his feats he displayed in manga and considers his life time years with Rinnegan also. Walla! he is better than JJ Madara in Rinnegan usage.

Same also for their mastery of controlling Juubi power. I let you think about it.

 

[Holy God]

Madara's chakra isn't more powerful because Hagoromo also possessed Shinju chakra, manga explained that Kaguya's children inherited her chakra when they were born.

That chakra is diluted by genetics.

In addition to that he has already proven to have the stronger body based on the fact he was able to resist Kaguya's power whilst Madara wasn't, and also the fact an Ashura incarnate with Six Path Senjutsu could control more amounts of energy than Madara.

Actually, Madara easily resisted Kaguya, as was shown by how he immediately gained control of the Ten-Tails. Naruto never had more chakra than Madara.

Furthermore, you forgot to address the most important issue which is genes, being a direct descendant of Kaguya and original owner of the Rinnegan automatically makes Hagoromo the superior dojutsu user, it's why you also see Indra and Ashura possessing powers way above what their descendants inherited, stronger genes = more power and ability.

Being a direct descendant of Kaguya means nothing when Madara has the source of power that makes Kaguya (who had no special genes) stronger than Hagoromo. Furthermore, Hagoromo being the original owner of the Rinnegan means nothing, especially when Madara has mastered it and has two more eye techniques (doujutsu).

 

[SenseiSama]

Claiming a transmigrant can use Hagoromo's powers better than Hagoromo is like claiming an Uchiha with thousands of years of blood thinning can have a stronger Sharingan than Indra.

 

[Hakke]

-Hagoromo undoes Edo Tensei with a mere thought via CoaT
-Hagoromo raises souls of every Kage in history with a thought via CoaT
-While not even having a physical body.
-After giving all his power away to Naruto and Sasuke.
-Without even having any of his tailed beasts power

And you make this thread to try and convince people that Madara is superior to Alive Hagoromo, with all his own power, plus all the power of his tailed beast....

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good point

 

[Holy God]

Most of the feats were not refine enough unlike what Hago does and it takes time to perfect it

-Obito not giving up power to someone the way Hago did but he combine his ethereal/spirit body and charka with Kakashi.

-Sasuke just absorbing mass quantity of chakra and shape it into still non-living entity.

But here we have Juubi jin Hagoromo vs Juubi jin Madara

Logically speaking Hagoromo had more years of living time to master his Rinnegan as he had it since his birth (please dont believe SP filler shit) while Madara when he getting too old to experimenting.

If we go with distance of year Hagoromo was 7 years ahead of Madara in Rinnegan mastery. Wild guess.

You cant go further than the known feats means you can only give JJ Madara his Rinnegan feats(Limbo) and basic Rinnegan abilities that Nagato and all Rinnegan users should know and have. It's no brainier to say Hagoromo cant perform Six Path power of Rinnegan.

And now we add into Hagoromo's resume his feats he displayed in manga and considers his life time years with Rinnegan also. Walla! he is better than JJ Madara in Rinnegan usage.

Same also for their mastery of controlling Juubi power. I let you think about it.

If we go by pure feats Hagoromo still loses. He's done nothing spectacular with his Rinnegan. The seals weren't made with his eyes. Six Paths Planetary Devastation was done using the seals. Splitting the Ten-Tails was done using Creation Of All Things. I'll give him credit for using the Outer Path for calling souls, but that's just one feat. Madara has shown way more. He has more experience with the Ten-Tails' power, but that's the only thing confirmable.