Madara vs Hagoromo

[Holy God]

Holy Madara vs Host Hagoromo


It's time to clear up some common and ignorant misconceptions about Hagoromo that have frequently come to deem him, and consequently his brother, as being more powerful than Madara.

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Hagoromo is the original wielder of the Rinnegan and mastered it

Being the original wielder means absolutely nothing. Kaguya was the original wielder of the Byakugan and yet the Hyuuga clan have made better use of it. Furthermore, Hagoromo is not factually stated to have mastered the Rinnegan.

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Hagoromo's Rinnegan is a Bloodline Net (Kekkei Moura)

Being classified as a Bloodline Net simply means it came from the Holy Tree, just like being a Bloodline Limit would mean it came from genetics. It has absolutely no relation to his eyes' power.

Hagoromo uses Ninshuu which is stronger than Ninjutsu

Incorrect.

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It is absolutely inferior in battle to Ninjutsu (Ninja Techniques).

Hagoromo already had Six Paths Sage Mode before becoming a host

This means absolutely nothing as well. His natural Six Paths Sage Mode and that from the Ten-Tails will not stack because they are the same thing that use the same Six Paths Sage chakra. It does not make his attacks any stronger than Madara's who will have the same mode.

Hagoromo created the moon

No, he and his brother created the moon. Even then, it's not their prowess, but rather the natural size of the technique.

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Hagoromo and Hamura beat Kaguya themselves

No, they didn't. They beat the Ten-Tails by themselves. The Ten-Tails and Kaguya are vastly different, and considering the Ten-Tails' size, it would be far easier to seal it compared to her.

Hagoromo has Creation of All Things

This magnificent technique is said to create form and life from nothingness, and yet, the only time he's used it had him creating form (Tailed Beasts) from chakra.

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Naruto and Sasuke, whom were given power by and are weaker than Hagoromo, were defeating Madara

Literally nothing suggests Naruto and Sasuke together are weaker than Hagoromo. They are not just his halves either. They have powers (Sharingan and Tailed Beasts) that he doesn't. Also, the only hits they landed on Madara were due to Amenotejikara, a technique that Hagoromo doesn't have. Speaking of Madara, he wasn't even at full power.

When Hagoromo said Madara was approaching his power, he was talking about himself without the Ten-Tails

This is completely wrong and selective reading. The only evidence for this is that he was talking in present tense and thus must have been talking about himself as a spirit.

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Justifying this by saying she was the Ten-Tails and consequently was alive is useless. Hagoromo did not know about that, thus he thought she was dead. This proves he was talking about their most powerful forms when alive.

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Facts​

Madara's Six Paths Sage Mode is more powerful

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Madara's eyes are more powerful

Madara has three eye techniques: the Sharingan, Rinnegan, and RinneSharingan. Meanwhile, Hagoromo only has one.

Madara's chakra is more powerful

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[SenseiSama]

Hagoromo would wipe the floor with Madara lol

 

[Ansatsuken]

The misconception here is that you think you know all thing about Host Hagoromo and non-Host Hagoromo and also past event inside out when the old man is nearly featless. Assumption with weak logic and support wont help you M8

To be fair I will not Rank Hago or Hamura in any ranking here and there, so are Indra and Ashura.

 

[Holy God]

Hagoromo would wipe the floor with Madara lol

Why do you believe that? Let's assume Madara can use Sharingan powers here, since I know you believe otherwise.

The misconception here is that you think you know all thing about Host Hagoromo and non-Host Hagoromo and also past event inside out when the old man is nearly featless. Assumption with weak logic and support wont help you M8

To be fair I will not Rank Hago or Hamura in any ranking here and there, so are Indra and Ashura.

Almost all my points use facts, not "weak logic and support". I never claimed to know everything about Hagoromo either, but since we do know he disliked Ninja Techniques (ninjutsu), we pretty much know as much as we need to battle-wise.

 

[Ansatsuken]

Why do you believe that? Let's assume Madara can use Sharingan powers here, since I know you believe otherwise.



Almost all my points use facts, not "weak logic and support". I never claimed to know everything about Hagoromo either, but since we do know he disliked Ninja Techniques (ninjutsu), we pretty much know as much as we need to battle-wise.

Thats what became the base of your idea/logic. Pffffff

Most of facts were from Madara. Where Hagoromo mostly came from assumption and personal interpretation. Hit or miss

Hagoromo and Hamura beat Kaguya themselves

No, they didn't. They beat the Ten-Tails by themselves. The Ten-Tails and Kaguya are vastly different, and considering the Ten-Tails' size, it would be far easier to seal it compared to her.

This is fact like you suggest? Pffff.

Its looks like an assumption for me 100%

If it that easy as you think, why this duo(Naruto and Sasuke) having a hard time dealing with this dude?

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They even have Rikudou DMS Kakashi there for help. And keep in mind that Juubi in the past was with full power

 

[Styles]

Madara gets baby shaked.

 

[Holy God]

Thats what became base of your idea/logic. Pffffff

Most of facts were from Madara. Where Hagoromo mostly came from assumption and personal interpretation. Hit or miss



This is fact like you suggest? Pffff.

Its looks like an assumption for me 100%

I would say so.

Spoiler

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[NarutoX28]

Quite frankly, if we exclude the Rinnegan, Madara's Rikudou Sage Mode seemed less refined than Naruto's who exhibited superior usage over the Bijuu's chakra and continued to absorb preternatural amounts of Natural Energy as well. I'd be genuinely baffled if Madara's RSM was more complete than Naruto's let alone Hagoromo's.

 

[Holy God]

Quite frankly, if we exclude the Rinnegan, Madara's Rikudou Sage Mode seemed less refined than Naruto's who exhibited superior usage over the Bijuu's chakra and continued to absorb preternatural amounts of Natural Energy as well. I'd be genuinely baffled if Madara's RSM was more complete than Naruto's let alone Hagoromo's.

I don't think Madara would be able to use the Tailed Beasts' chakra, since he is the host of the Ten-Tails' unlike Naruto who has each individually. The natural energy bit also wouldn't apply to Madara since the Ten-Tails is noted to already have "immeasurable" amounts.

 

[Ansatsuken]

I would say so.

Spoiler

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And then what that brings to the table?

It was just between unable to focus most of your strength/power and able to focus. But that doesnt makes Juubi's power in two different form any different.

If Juubi can focus all his strength, it also can break the Myojinmon.

But here its not about that but what you know about Juubi in the past. What it can do and how the fight played out. Gyuuki not even alive at that time to witnessed the difference.

 

[Holy God]

And then what that brings to the table?

It was just between unable to focus most of your strength/power and able to focus. But that doesnt makes Juubi's power in two different any different.

If Juubi can focus all his strength, it also can break the Myojinmon.

But here its not about that but what you know about Juubi in the past. What it can do and how the fight played out. Gyuuki not even alive at that time to witnessed the difference.

The Ten-Tails can't focus it's power though. It is "mindless". Gyuuki not having experience of what happened in the past is also irrelevant, because the Ten-Tails' form then and in the war are the same. It has already been said the host is more powerful, and by default harder to defeat.

Just make a simple scenario. Have KSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke with everyone else fighting the Ten-Tails' alone. Also give the duo the seals. All they have to do is touch it simultaneously to win. Replace the Ten-Tails with Kaguya however, and obviously the humans all lose.

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

Before I go on I have to work with this claim over here↓

Naruto and Sasuke, whom were given power by and are weaker than Hagoromo, were defeating Madara

Literally nothing suggests Naruto and Sasuke together are weaker than Hagoromo. They are not just his halves either. They have powers (Sharingan and Tailed Beasts) that he doesn't. Also, the only hits they landed on Madara were due to Amenotejikara, a technique that Hagoromo doesn't have. Speaking of Madara, he wasn't even at full power.

And that would be the misconception of naruto and sasuke being equivalent if not greater than each half the power of Hagormoo himself. That's not possible for hagormoo's ghost is a remnant chakra that naruto and sasuke were able to summon.
And for him to give off half of his chakra to two people while being able to summon the hokage's means that his ghost had more chakra than he already had. That doesn't make sense.

 

[Warlocks]

Hagoromo>Madara

 

[Holy God]

Before I go on I have to work with this claim over here↓


And that would be the misconception of naruto and sasuke being equivalent if not greater than each half the power of Hagormoo himself. That's not possible for hagormoo's ghost is a remnant chakra that naruto and sasuke were able to summon.
And for him to give off half of his chakra to two people while being able to summon the hokage's means that his ghost had more chakra than he already had. That doesn't make sense.

I'm not completely sure what you're getting at. I agree that Naruto and Sasuke don't actually have half of his chakra when he was alive. I was just talking about powers, like body and eyes.

 

[Ansatsuken]

The Ten-Tails can't focus it's power though. It is "mindless". Gyuuki not having experience of what happened in the past is also irrelevant, because the Ten-Tails' form then and in the war are the same. It has already been said the host is more powerful, and by default harder to defeat.

Just make a simple scenario. Have KSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke with everyone else fighting the Ten-Tails' alone. Also give the duo the seals. All they have to do is touch it simultaneously to win. Replace the Ten-Tails with Kaguya however, and obviously the humans all lose.

Please M8, I'm already gave you one question in other post and you still not answer it yet and now you bring this subject. Its like you never bother to read the post completely just going straight for reply post.

I think the Juubi that Hamura and Hago fought was not a mindless beast or played mindless as it was when Kaguya in her best years. She controls her beast form like how she controls her rabbit form. Why I said that, it bcus she can switch back her beast form into her human form at will.

Kaguya in her beast form in action:-

Spoiler

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When Kaguya in full control of her beast form she know what to do and not became mindless as you think here. She know how to stabilize her form, attacks etc.

This also what can be The Juubi in the past. It was not totally mindless as Kaguya's consciousness was present there.

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

I'm not completely sure what you're getting at. I agree that Naruto and Sasuke don't actually have half of his chakra when he was alive. I was just talking about powers, like body and eyes.

Yeah that's what I was talking about. Sasuke and Naruto do not literally have half of hagoromoo's chakra. But since we are talking about the body and eye powers then yes I agree with that part, my mistake.

I still think Hagormoo is stronger though because of his kekkai mora.

 

[The Messiah]

Are you implying that JJ Madara > JJ Hagoromo? If you are, there is no way of knowing this since Hagoromo is featless. Portrayal is really the only reason why he's considered stronger and it makes sense for him to be stronger.

 

[Holy God]

Please M8, I'm already gave you one question in other post and you still not answer it yet and now you bring this subject. Its like you never bother to read the post completely just going straight for reply post.

This?

And then what that brings to the table?

RinneSharingan, Truth-Seeking Spheres, flight, increased strength, and any techniques of the host.

I think the Juubi that Hamura and Hago fought was not a mindless beast or played mindless as it was when Kaguya in her best years. She controls her beast form like how she controls her rabbit form. Why I said that, it bcus she can switch back her beast form into her human form at will.

When has she been able to switch at will? The time you referenced was not willful, but forced by Naruto's Rasenshuriken. As soon as she could, she transformed back. That is an unstable version in which you can see the Tailed Beasts trying to escape.

When Kaguya in full control of her beast form she know what to do and not became mindless as you think here. She know how to stabilize her form, attacks etc.

This also what can be The Juubi in the past. It was not totally mindless as Kaguya's consciousness was present there.

If you're saying she used her "Rabbit Form" in the past, that'd be wrong for the reason above and that we've been shown what the brothers fought.

Spoiler

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We've also been shown what "control" she has over the Ten-Tails, and that was when the Ten-Tails was angered at Naruto for reminding Kaguya of Hagoromo. There's nothing different from the past and the war to suggest she'd have any more control.

 

[Holy God]

Are you implying that JJ Madara > JJ Hagoromo? If you are, there is no way of knowing this since Hagoromo is featless. Portrayal is really the only reason why he's considered stronger and it makes sense for him to be stronger.

Yes. I made this thread to debunk whatever portrayal there is to suggest such. If you could explain anything that hasn't been countered in this thread or that wasn't countered inefficiently that lead you to believe otherwise I would appreciate it.

 

[lndra]

I'll put it this way

Hagoromo > Black Zetsu > Madara

:Sparks: