Madara vs Hagoromo

[Holy God]

Yeah that's what I was talking about. Sasuke and Naruto do not literally have half of hagoromoo's chakra. But since we are talking about the body and eye powers then yes I agree with that part, my mistake.

I still think Hagormoo is stronger though because of his kekkai mora.

What do you think his Rinnegan being a Bloodline Net entails then, since I already gave my opinion on it in the thread?

 

[The Messiah]

Yes. I made this thread to debunk whatever portrayal there is to suggest such. If you could explain anything that hasn't been countered in this thread or that wasn't countered efficiently that lead you to*believe otherwise I would appreciate it.

Hagoromo being Kaguya's son and being thought of as some type of mythical God is the portrayal that I'm talking about. Like I said though, Hagoromo is featless and we didn't get to see much of JJ Madara so nobody can say who's stronger.

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

What do you think his Rinnegan being a Bloodline Net entails then, since I already gave my opinion on it in the thread?

That it is completely ocular power related and it's a bloodline that takes your ocular power to the next step. It's also what separates Kaguya's sharingan from the rest of the sharingans the Uchiha clan posses. Hagormoo's only visible trace of kekkai mora comes from his rinnegan just like how Madara's only visible trace of kekkai genkai comes from his sharingan.

The scale of his ocular powers are not only different but it enables him to use certain jutsus without the requirement of Gedo, Juubi, or Holy tree.

 

[Holy God]

That it is completely ocular power related and it's a bloodline that takes your ocular power to the next step. It's also what separates Kaguya's sharingan from the rest of the sharingans the Uchiha clan posses. Hagormoo's only visible trace of kekkai mora comes from his rinnegan just like how Madara's only visible trace of kekkai genkai comes from his sharingan.

The scale of his ocular powers are not only different but it enables him to use certain jutsus without the requirement of Gedo, Juubi, or Holy tree.

But why do you believe it makes his Rinnegan stronger? A Bloodline Limit isn't necessarily stronger than a regular technique, it just means it came from genetics. Also, what techniques are you referring to at the bottom? Certainly his Rinnegan does not grant him Six Paths Sage Mode.

 

[Ansatsuken]

This?

Surely you never paid any attention.

My previous post:-

If it that easy as you think, why this duo(Naruto and Sasuke) having a hard time dealing with this dude?

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They even have Rikudou DMS Kakashi there for help. And keep in mind that Juubi in the past was with full power

RinneSharingan, Truth-Seeking Spheres, flight, increased strength, and any techniques of the host.

I'm talking about what the difference in power would Juubi experienced? be it in its beast form of inside jinchuriki. Its power stayed the same but it weak in focusing his full power.

Still it would gave someone very big problem unless you're Hashirama with the right tools or Juubi played a scheme.

When has she been able to switch at will? The time you referenced was not willful, but forced by Naruto's Rasenshuriken. As soon as she could, she transformed back. That is an unstable version in which you can see the Tailed Beasts trying to escape.

When Kaguya mustered enough chakra into her for her to stabilize her body. With enough chakra she can switch her form at will and primordial Kaguya host massive quantity of chakra before her defeats.

If you're saying she used her "Rabbit Form" in the past, that'd be wrong for the reason above and that we've been shown what the brothers fought.

Spoiler

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We've also been shown what "control" she has over the Ten-Tails, and that was when the Ten-Tails was angered at Naruto for reminding Kaguya of Hagoromo. There's nothing different from the past and the war to suggest she'd have any more control.

I never think of that. Just telling you Juubi was not a total mindless beast and cant defend it self and launching offensive moves.

You think there is nothing difference but it just you think you had see and know enough. That's the wrong way to judge something if you're neglecting the reasons and motives.

 

[NarutoX28]

I don't think Madara would be able to use the Tailed Beasts' chakra, since he is the host of the Ten-Tails' unlike Naruto who has each individually. The natural energy bit also wouldn't apply to Madara since the Ten-Tails is noted to already have "immeasurable" amounts.

The constituents of the Juubi are the Bijuu and are explicitly illustrated to be conspicuously separated in spite of being a combined mass of chakra:

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There's no reason why Madara would be incapable of harnessing the Kekkei Genkai unless his Rikudou Senjutsu is much less refined than Naruto's, simple as that.

Juubi Jin have immeasurable amounts of chakra yet obtaining even more chakra does not preclude chakra absorption whatsoever. Wasn't the case with Kaguya, so I sincerely doubt harnessing that level of Natural Energy would inhibit NE absorption simply because it cannot be measured.

 

[Holy God]

Surely you never paid any attention.

I started my reply before you even edited that in your post. It's pretty irrelevant though since that is not the Ten-Tails and is vastly different from it.

I'm talking about what the difference in power would Juubi experienced? be it in its beast form of inside jinchuriki. Its power stayed the same but it weak in focusing his full power.

Still it would gave someone very big problem unless you're Hashirama with the right tools or Juubi played a scheme.

I just gave you abilities the host has that the Tailed Beast doesn't. And sure, the Ten-Tails causes a problem, but it is still easier to deal with than Kaguya, and that shouldn't be up for opinion.

When Kaguya mustered enough chakra into her for her to stabilize her body. With enough chakra she can switch her form at will and primordial Kaguya host massive quantity of chakra before her defeats.

She can normalize herself, yes, but that doesn't mean she can switch into her "Rabbit Form" at will. As I previously stated, it's an unstable form Black Zetsu was even worried about.

You think there is nothing difference but it just you think you had see and know enough. That's the wrong way to judge something if you're neglecting the reasons and motives.

It's not me closing my mind to options, but her having any more control before makes no sense and really isn't viable. Even if she did she'd still only be able to use Tailed Beast Bombs.

 

[Ansatsuken]

I started my reply before you even edited that in your post. It's pretty irrelevant though since that is not the Ten-Tails and is vastly different from it.

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Thats not a Ten-Tails when it clearly have 10 tails. Yeah it was a different form to what we know about Ten-Tails appearance normally but you forgot what you said in your debunking's point.



-and considering the Ten-Tails' size, it would be far easier to seal it compared to her.

-Size

Sorry for the 'bold' bcus people always missed the details. I look everything in the finest detail.

Sometime I questions people capability of presenting their thought.

 

[Holy God]

The constituents of the Juubi are the Bijuu and are explicitly illustrated to be conspicuously separated in spite of being a combined mass of chakra:

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There's no reason why Madara would be incapable of harnessing the Kekkei Genkai unless his Rikudou Senjutsu is much less refined than Naruto's, simple as that.

I thought you'd bring up this page. The Tailed Beasts are still combined then though in a massive blob. Even if he could use them independently, it's not his style, just like Kaguya who I believe you'd agree has a better Sage Mode than Naruto.

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, and this only runs true for you if he really is unable to, but that isn't confirmed either way.

Juubi Jin have immeasurable amounts of chakra yet obtaining even more chakra does not preclude chakra absorption whatsoever. Wasn't the case with Kaguya, so I sincerely doubt harnessing that level of Natural Energy would inhibit NE absorption simply because it cannot be measured.

I wasn't saying he is unable to absorb anymore chakra. I was saying it'd be useless for him to amass any since he never ran low like Naruto and Kaguya. Like above though, it isn't confirmed if he can or can't collect nature energy, but Kaguya didn't either. I can't see what'd make you believe they'd be unable to though.

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

But why do you believe it makes his Rinnegan stronger? A Bloodline Limit isn't necessarily stronger than a regular technique, it just means it came from genetics. Also, what techniques are you referring to at the bottom? Certainly his Rinnegan does not grant him Six Paths Sage Mode.

A bloodline limit is a genetic ability that can be passed down genetically giving them a special kind of skill that cannot be copied by anybody else without that bloodline. Like the sharingan being unable to copy Haku's kekkai genkai.

Spoiler

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Hagoromoo's Rinnegan is a kekkai mora giving him skills that a rinnegan that is a kekkai genkai is unable to do. So one example of what hagormoo can do that madara can't is the purpose of the rinnegan.

+The rinnegan is a ocular jutsu that rules over life and death and to change ones dreams into reality. Even the sharingan's practical version that needed senju power combined was only limited to oneself instead of affecting everyone else like the rinnegan user can.

Main Body 1

相容れぬ理想ゆえ柱間と袂を分かったマダラの憎しみは、木ノ葉の里へと向かう。里を襲い幾度となく繰り広げ た柱間との死闘は、マダラの敗北で幕を下ろした。しかしそれは大いなる夢の幕開けだった。 一命を取り留めたマダラは愛と憎しみの因果を断ち切り、 勝者も敗者もない世界を希求する。マダラにとっては現実こそが地獄。憂いと苦しみの果てに寿命が潰えんとし たその時、ついに「輪廻眼」を開眼する。マダラの双眸に宿ったのは、夢想を理想の現実と変える 力だった！

Madara’s hatred was split between (two entities): Hashirama, because of his incompatible dreams, and also towards the village of Konoha. He then unfolded (incidents) upon Hashirama by attacking the village on multiple occasions. In a battle to the death, and with Madara’s defeat, the curtain closed (on that era). However, that was the rise of the curtain for a great dream. Madara escaped death. Cutting apart the fate of love and hatred, he aspired to a world even without winners or losers. As for Madara, reality was certainly Hell. At the end of his lifespan of sorrow and anguish, and at the moment where his life was about to collapse, Madara finally awakened the 「Rinnegan」. It was dwelling in Madara’s pair of eyes: the power to change his dream into an ideal reality!

When pain used the power of rinne through madara's rinnegan, he was only able to bring people back as pain or through rinne tensei which is restoration of one or more persons to life. Madara controls life or death by the means of rinne tensei as well.
As for Hagoromoo he did not need a sacrifice to bring someone back from the dead, he summoned them with no exchange for life which is something no one else could do.

When rinnegan madara needed to change his dreams into reality he needed the juubi. When he needed to cast or undo the infinte tsukyomi he needed the juubi for it. Hagoromoo on the other hand doesn't because of his kekkai mora.

 

[Holy God]

Thats not a Ten-Tails when it clearly have 10 tails. Yeah it was a different form to what we know about Ten-Tails appearance normally but you forgot what you said in your debunking's point.



-and considering the Ten-Tails' size, it would be far easier to seal it compared to her.

-Size

Sorry for the 'bold' bcus people always missed the details. I look everything in the finest detail.

Sometime I questions people capability of presenting their thought.

No, that's not the Ten-Tails, and why would you want them to touch something that would absorb their souls?

 

[Ansatsuken]

No, that's not the Ten-Tails, and why would you want them to touch something that would absorb their souls?

How do you know the whole body of that 'Ten Tails' can absorb anyone if touched? Just bcus its tails have that capability, you think whole body of it will also.

Where you learn to think like that? Is that how people in your part of the world think?

 

[Holy God]

When pain used the power of rinne through madara's rinnegan, he was only able to bring people back as pain or through rinne tensei which is restoration of one or more persons to life. Madara controls life or death by the means of rinne tensei as well.
As for Hagoromoo he did not need a sacrifice to bring someone back from the dead, he summoned them with no exchange for life which is something no one else could do.

That's not a valid comparison. Nagato and Madara (or more specifically Obito) brought souls back along with their bodies. Hagoromo, a soul himself, only summoned the souls.

When rinnegan madara needed to change his dreams into reality he needed the juubi. When he needed to cast or undo the infinte tsukyomi he needed the juubi for it. Hagoromoo on the other hand doesn't because of his kekkai mora.

Hagoromo said himself that the Tailed Beasts are required to undo Infinite Tsukuyomi, and he definitely can't cast it himself without a RinneSharingan.

 

[Holy God]

How do you know the whole body of that 'Ten Tails' can absorb anyone if touched? Just bcus its tails have that capability, you think whole body of it will also.

Where you learn to think like that? Is that how people in your part of the world think?

Probably because it's made of the same thing all over. Either way, Sasuke said it'd be easier to seal since it was so big and Black Zetsu validated it by being scared.

 

[LuckyMan]

-Hagoromo undoes Edo Tensei with a mere thought via CoaT
-Hagoromo raises souls of every Kage in history with a thought via CoaT
-While not even having a physical body.
-After giving all his power away to Naruto and Sasuke.
-Without even having any of his tailed beasts power

And you make this thread to try and convince people that Madara is superior to Alive Hagoromo, with all his own power, plus all the power of his tailed beast....

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[Ansatsuken]

Probably because it's made of the same thing all over. Either way, Sasuke said it'd be easier to seal since it was so big and Black Zetsu validated it by being scared.

Action speaks louder than words. They still unable to approached it and seal it. Not very easy to me.

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

That's not a valid comparison. Nagato and Madara (or more specifically Obito) brought souls back along with their bodies. Hagoromo, a soul himself, only summoned the souls.

Nagato never brought back a body that was never already present but he exchanged his his soul for others. Same thing for Madara/Obito. Hagoromoo who did not have a body did not exchange the little chakra he had left to bring back all those previous kages. He only needed their souls.

Hagoromo said himself that the Tailed Beasts are required to undo Infinite Tsukuyomi, and he definitely can't cast it himself without a RinneSharingan.

Which Hagormoo already had (his six path sagemode is proof that he does).

The manga and databook said they need the power of rinne which hagormoo already has.
Madara and Obito both needed the juubi to reflect that power whether it be through the tree's eye reflecting the moon or the tree's eyes reflecting off your forehead after absorbing it.

 

[Holy God]

Action speaks louder than words. They still unable to approached it and seal it. Not very easy to me.

Probably because it transformed back into Kaguya before they could even attempt to approach it. I guess you missed the actions of Perfect Susano'o easily evading the arms and Kakashi easily destroying them.

 

[Holy God]

Nagato never brought back a body that was never already present but he exchanged his his soul for others. Same thing for Madara/Obito. Hagoromoo who did not have a body did not exchange the little chakra he had left to bring back all those previous kages. He only needed their souls.

Exactly, they are different scenarios. Hagoromo didn't have to use his life because he never brought anyone back to life. You can't compare the two uses.

Which Hagormoo already had (his six path sagemode is proof that he does).

The manga and databook said they need the power of rinne which hagormoo already has.
Madara and Obito both needed the juubi to reflect that power whether it be through the tree's eye reflecting the moon or the tree's eyes reflecting off your forehead after absorbing it.

Hagoromo has some form of Six Paths Sage chakra, but it isn't the Tailed Beasts' exactly. Literally nothing points to him having the "power of Rinne" before becoming a host. Nobody even knows what that actually refers to.

 

[Ansatsuken]

Probably because it transformed back into Kaguya before they could even attempt to approach it. I guess you missed the actions of Perfect Susano'o easily evading the arms and Kakashi easily destroying them.

That still dont explain to us why Sasuke with PS and Naruto with Clones and diversion tactic never tried to approached it earlier if Sasuke think it easier to deal with. It bcus they unsure what will came out after witnessing what Rabbit Juubi capable of doing.