Madara's Philosophy Vs. Itachi's Philosophy

[Pretentious]

I must say, I rather enjoy these types of discussion in comparison to the basic NDS trash. These type of threads are food for thought, and allow one to peer into another individual's perspective.

 

[JStar King]

Madara is one of my faves but he is a prick.

His ideals arent fixing anything because its all fake. Meaning its unrealistic just like Hashis dream. No matter what Madara accomplishes, its fake.

The difference us one is right, the other is wrong. Madara actions are evil.

I admit, Madara was a bit of a brutally honest prick, but how was his philosophy so fake? And Madara wasn't evil. He was a realist who told people how it was and knew what needed to be done.

That is why he left Hashirama behind, because he wasn't blind to the bullsh*t.

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[lndra]

Madara's made more sense to me. But overall both were flawed visions.

 

[Hakke]

I think Pain's philosophy is better than both of them
-"Human nature pursues strife."

-"Even innocent foolish children will grow up in the face of pain, until their thoughts and beliefs are the same as their doubts."

-"Love breeds sacrifice... which in turn breeds hatred. Then you can know pain."

-"Do you understand pain a little now? If you don't share someone's pain, you can never understand them. But just because you
understand them doesn't mean you can come to an agreement. That's the truth"

-"Justice comes from vengeance, but that justice only breeds more vengeance."

-"Religion, ideology, resources, land, spite, love or just because. No matter how pathetic the reason, it's enough to start a war."

-"Love is the reason why there is pain. When we lose someone precious to us, hate is born. Vengeance is the product of that hate and so death follows. But in death there is only more death. This will give rise to more pains. In this cursed world we live in, it is a cycle of hatred that will not cease. You and I seek the same thing that Jiraiya-sensei wanted. Let me ask you this: How will you confront this hatred in order to create peace? "

and my favorite :
-"Feel pain, think about pain, accept pain, know pain... Shinra Tensei!"

[video=youtube;pI7Jc-fSQQ8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pI7Jc-fSQQ8[/video]

 

[JStar King]

I think Pain's philosophy is better than both of them
-"Human nature pursues strife."

-"Even innocent foolish children will grow up in the face of pain, until their thoughts and beliefs are the same as their doubts."

-"Love breeds sacrifice... which in turn breeds hatred. Then you can know pain."

-"Do you understand pain a little now? If you don't share someone's pain, you can never understand them. But just because you
understand them doesn't mean you can come to an agreement. That's the truth"

-"Justice comes from vengeance, but that justice only breeds more vengeance."

-"Religion, ideology, resources, land, spite, love or just because. No matter how pathetic the reason, it's enough to start a war."

and my favorite :
-"Feel pain, think about pain, accept pain, know pain... Shinra Tensei!"

Yeah, Nagato spoke some heartbreaking facts as well. Could you imagine if the three of them got together and had a discussion about this? It would be epic if Kishi wrote a short novel with them speaking to one another about their goals and different methods.

 

[Jokule67]

I much prefer Itachis philosophy. He knows he's of the darkness and the world needs light. He puts his faith in that said light because he knows the world would be a better place.

Madara would love to have the world he and Hashi dreamed of, but he knows it may be unattainable. So he takes matters into his own hands.

Itachi sets ripples in the pond and puts his faith in others. The only way to unite is to believe in and trust each other. Its also the first step in a true friendship.

As an edo Itachi realized you cant force your ideals on others. You can only forge bonds through understanding and relationship. He wants a genuine world. Madara wants complete control over zombies.

Im with Itachi.

 

[Pretentious]

Actually, you're right, I'm forgetting what he said to his father after he kicked those other Uchiha's asses, may have been what he believed and not just a front.

But a system that works for some and not others is still corrupt.

Again, completely perspective related. The system could work for "others" if they adapted to change. A system be it concrete, or not will never work for everyone; reason being, is perspective, and ideals.

Itachi's & Madara's system would also be considered insubstantial, or corrupt by others. Similar to how our world's system is perceived by many.

"You can't please everyone." A simplistic, yet undeniably powerful, and deep quote that reference many seeds of disagreement.

 

[JStar King]

I much prefer Itachis philosophy. He knows he's of the darkness and the world needs light. He puts his faith in that said light because he knows the world would be a better place.

Madara would love to have the world he and Hashi dreamed of, but he knows it may be unattainable. So he takes matters into his own hands.

Itachi sets ripples in the pond and puts his faith in others. The only way to unite is to believe in and trust each other. Its also the first step in a true friendship.

As an edo Itachi realized you cant force your ideals on others. You can only forge bonds through understanding and relationship. He wants a genuine world. Madara wants complete control over zombies.

Im with Itachi.

That is true, however, he still sacrificed his own blood for the sake of the village despite knowing how corrupt the village was. He knew everything, including how his very own family faced repeated oppression and discrimination since Tobirama's reign, which only fueled their hatred.

In that exact moment, in my opinion, he was playing God.

"The village does have its dark side and its inconsistencies, but I'm still Konoha's Itachi Uchiha."

-Itachi Uchiha

Like Madara said:

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[Jokule67]

I admit, Madara was a bit of a brutally honest prick, but how was his philosophy so fake? And Madara wasn't evil. He was a realist who told people how it was and knew what needed to be done.

That is why he left Hashirama behind, because he wasn't blind to the bullsh*t.

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Its evil to force the whole world into a dream where they turn into zetsu.

None of it is honorable. Its all evil bro. Especially when he came back to life in a geberation where he wasnt even apart of.

 

[JStar King]

Its evil to force the whole world into a dream where they turn into zetsu.

None of it is honorable. Its all evil bro. Especially when he came back to life in a geberation where he wasnt even apart of.

Did Madara even know that IT was going to turn everyone into White Zetsu? Was it even confirmed?

He only wanted everyone to live out their dreams in a peaceful illusion. I'm not saying his method was right, especially with the manipulation of Obito, Nagato, and the Akatsuki, but he believe wholeheartedly that he was getting rid of everyone's hell, so they can live out there own version of heaven.

 

[Jokule67]

That is true, however, he still sacrificed his own blood for the sake of the village despite knowing how corrupt the village was. He knew everything, including how his very own family faced repeated oppression and discrimination since Tobirama's reign, which only fueled their hatred.

In that exact moment, in my opinion, he was playing God.

"The village does have its dark side and its inconsistencies, but I'm still Konoha's Itachi Uchiha."

Like Madara said:

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Exactly he is in darkness but puts his faith in light. In spite of all the crap he had hope.

Madara doesnt have hope. Thats the clear trait all Naruto villians lack. Hope.

You lose hope by not having anyone to trust. Naruto is a genuine person that Itachi knew he could trust.

However, before then he already had faith in his village. His understanding was above the wgole Uchiha clan so in spite of the persecution he knew civil war was not the answer. Im not justifying Itachis massacre because thats the darkness he lives in that I described.

 

[Pretentious]

Madara's made more sense to me. But overall both were flawed visions.

Naturally this is based off of pure personal perspective. As I quoted to Pumpkin Ninja; "You can't please everyone." -- Generally, neither's vision for a better system was particularly "flawed" more-so it'd be perceived that way by other's with different perspectives; i.e. the reason to which Madara wanted to change the system, or why Danzo acted within the shadows.

A system can never be perfect due to outlier opinions.

 

[Jokule67]

Did Madara even know that IT was going to turn everyone into White Zetsu? Was it even confirmed?

He only wanted everyone to live out their dreams in a peaceful illusion. I'm not saying his method was right, especially with the manipulation of Obito, Nagato, and the Akatsuki, but he believe wholeheartedly that he was getting rid of everyone's hell, so they can live out there own version of heaven.

Its still evil because he's forcing it on others. He didnt ask first.

If you good in bed do you force women to feel your mini me just cuz you know she'll feel good? No. Its wrong.

I know he meant well though.

 

[JStar King]

Exactly he is in darkness but puts his faith in light. In spite of all the crap he had hope.

Madara doesnt have hope. Thats the clear trait all Naruto villians lack. Hope.

You lose hope by not having anyone to trust. Naruto is a genuine person that Itachi knew he could trust.

However, before then he already had faith in his village. His understanding was above the wgole Uchiha clan so in spite of the persecution he knew civil war was not the answer. Im not justifying Itachis massacre because thats the darkness he lives in that I described.

That is true, but here's the thing. How are people suppose to have hope when history keeps repeating itself. NV had four wars. The first war even happened and killed Hashirama, who believed that his dream could achieve peace among all Shinobi. It didn't happen.

People will always think differently, which always results in overall conflict. You have to remember that these villains grew up in the midst of corruption, war, and death.

.Nagato lost his parents and grew up in a war-torn country with no end.

.Sasuke lost all his loved ones in the middle of a blood feud between his family and the village, which also resulted in Itachi's suffering while stripping Sasuke from his innocence.

.Kabuto was forced to become a spy to save his mother's orphanage and he was forced to kill her because of the lies that came with it.

.Karin lost her mother and her clan. She ended up as Orochimaru's lab rat.

.The villages kept fighting, forcing children to kill and kill and kill for the sake of their selfish deeds.

How can these people have hope when nothing got better. Were they just supposed to put their hope in some wild goose chase dream?

 

[Pretentious]

Its still evil because he's forcing it on others. He didnt ask first.

If you good in bed do you force women to feel your mini me just cuz you know she'll feel good? No. Its wrong.

I know he meant well though.

Not a well-put analogy regarding Madara's ideals.

Madara's way of constructing his ideal system for the shinobi world was through a dictatorship/autocracy; dictating isn't necessarily bad, as without order, or commanding/leading law (i.e. similar to the system Madara attempted to rewrite) confusion is attained -- Society deep down doesn't crave freedom, they crave order than allows the illusion of freedom. Madara attempted just that, though his actions were perceived evil, truly they were just to his cause.

 

[Pretentious]

Uchiha's always resort to evil to attain their goals. That's why they always lose. Miserably so too.

Seeds of blind ignorance.

 

[JStar King]

Not a well-put analogy regarding Madara's ideals.

Madara's way of constructing his ideal system for the shinobi world was through a dictatorship/autocracy; dictating isn't necessarily bad, as without order, or commanding/leading law (i.e. similar to the system Madara attempted to rewrite) confusion is attained -- Society deep down doesn't crave freedom, they crave order than allows the illusion of freedom. Madara attempted just that, though his actions were perceived evil, truly they were just to his cause.

Dammit, I can't +Rep you! Excellent analysis.

 

[lndra]

Naturally this is based off of pure personal perspective. As I quoted to Pumpkin Ninja; "You can't please everyone." -- Generally, neither's vision for a better system was particularly "flawed" more-so it'd be perceived that way by other's with different perspectives; i.e. the reason to which Madara wanted to change the system, or why Danzo acted within the shadows.

A system can never be perfect due to outlier opinions.

Agreed. Generally the main problem with these types of characters is that they try to solve these problems by themselves. Although, even when you work together the plan still has it's own conflicts.

Really in NV there's no true way to peace no matter what you preach.

 

[gerizzyYMcrew]

Basically the whole "everyone turns into White Zetsu in IT", it was clear that was just something added to prove Madara's actions were wrong.

that's just your interpretation...in fact when we thought the creation of white zetsu was orchestrated by madara it had little to no effect on his moral grounds at all

 

[JStar King]

Agreed. Generally the main problem with these types of characters is that they try to solve these problems by themselves. Although, even when you work together the plan still has it's own conflicts.

Really in NV there's no true way to peace no matter what you preach.

That's the cold hard truth. There will always be conflict.