Madara's Philosophy Vs. Itachi's Philosophy

[Inmate]

Madara's knows what he's saying, he stuck by his sayings through his life and onward...
Itachi also said some deep words but they didn't conclude anything about the condition of life/existence in Shinobi world.

In a debate,
Madara would win...

P.S.
Who are those no names, Itachi is talking to?

Certainly. Madara reveres his ideas and philosophy in the shinobi world to the point of sticking by his words even in the face of death. Contrary to Madara, Itachi is mentally flexible and quickly adapts, not conform, according to how situations change. Madara is the type that self-believes and doesn't listen to what others might have to say unless they are Hashirama's clones but even then they can't convince him to mentally rewrite his philosophies. Thus Madara would win in a debate. But as for me, I still think Itachi is more convincing with his uptake on everything

 

[Yang release]

TBH ppl say that reality quote by itachi would be talkin about religious ppl or people that have a Relationship with GOD. But it fits best with ATHIESTS .

Ps I respect everybody's beliefs not bashing.

 

[~Ethereal~]

I think with Itachi it is more like figuring out the root of the problem and do what you feel is right, whilst with Madara all his quotes are war associated with some emotions.

 

[gerizzyYMcrew]

Itachi's philosophies are more abstract and seem to be targeted to the individual while Madara's addresses society as a whole and is able to address a problem. But I think Itachi's life is a testament of Madara's philosophy, as Itachi's life was filled with misery because of the system that Madara hated.

Judging by these quotes, I would think Itachi would accept Madara's goal of IT if it weren't for the White Zetsu retcon that Kishi added to justify the SA. Itachi doesn't even think there is certainty in the reality he lives in so I don't see why he would dismiss being in a genjutsu. But in actuality, Itachi would have continued to resist IT for some reason.

hmmm?

 

[Pumpkin Ninja]

hmmm?

Basically the whole "everyone turns into White Zetsu in IT", it was clear that was just something added to prove Madara's actions were wrong.

 

[Melanin]

I'm just saying Itachi's philosophies doesn't tackle much more than what we normally hear in philosophy. Be open minded, can't trust your senses, blah, blah, blah.

Madara's tackles a harsh truth of reality we all try to avoid. We are the winners of this system so I guess his doesn't mean much to us. The only issue with Madara's philosophy is the reality that we cannot change reality so Itachi's might prove to be more meaningful in the end.


I disagree, Itachi's is more so 'deal with it, who knows what might happen, ignorance is bliss'Madara's is "f*ck this bs, I'mma fix it myself". Madara's doesn't work in reality but if it could work, it would be better.

@bold: that's not how I see it, no one can or should be able to blame their actions on the influences of others. By the evidence, Itachi agrees with this, and even takes pride in it. Regardless of the details, Itachi takes ownership of his actions, and Sasuke (rightly) holds him accountable. While Madara blamed everything he did on the way the world was & what it would always be (which he's right about) but that's weakness requires little self-acknowledgement which makes Madara a predictable psychotic sadist who's actions are predictable. While it is important to recognize that Itachi is not bound by any of his prior actions as “predictable” markers of his character. Itachi is not a psychotic, indiscriminate killer. He never was. He might enjoy cruelty, but that doesn’t mean we can label him a sadist. The only “truth” in Itachi’s reality is the action of the moment. As such we've seen Itachi making choices that may seem “out of pattern” for a S-class criminal. - abandoning fights, state that he has no interest in killing anyone unnecessarily, and even showing some degree of concern -

Itachi never turned a blind eye to anything in his life or anything that occurred in the world and he never blamed those things for any of his actions period.

My opinion.

 

[Pretentious]

Right, acknowledging that you might just be wrong about everything is important, but for many people, that idea has had no significance to their lives. You can live thinking the Earth is flat and die thinking that but in the end it didn't affect your life. This quote is suited for religious and Atheistic zealots if anything.

TBH ppl say that reality quote by itachi would be talkin about religious ppl or people that have a Relationship with GOD. But it fits best with ATHIESTS .

Ps I respect everybody's beliefs not bashing.

Exactly, and that's an element of pure perplexity -- As I stated prior, Itachi's teaching have many different perspectives/layers of understanding. Itachi's wisdom makes an individual question what is true, and even when their resolve is rigid, his idealistic paradigm causes foregoing resolutions to become pliable.

Exacting the rationale of Itachi's philosophy & debating that Itachi's consensus being superior to Madara's own.

​

 

[YellowFang]

LOL...

Madara's philosophy shows his view on things, Itachi's philosophy is general... Everyone would have their own perceptions on his quotes.

 

[Melanin]

Exactly, and that's an element of pure perplexity -- As I stated prior, Itachi's teaching have many different perspectives/layers of understanding. Itachi's wisdom makes an individual question what is true, and even when their resolve is rigid, his idealistic paradigm causes foregoing resolutions to become pliable.

Exacting the rationale of Itachi's philosophy & debating consensus being superior to Madara's own.

​

I agree, Itachi entire philosophy was reaching abstract conclusions by making decisions that weren't motivated by how the world & its people shaped it (their laws, actions, deeds ect...).

 

[JStar King]

Madara is evil but I think he would win in a debate over Itachi but Itachi would likely get closer than anyone else. Itachi would surpass Hashirama.

Madara was not technically evil if you truly analyze his entire character and the purpose of his goals. He was just a broken man, who suffered. He wanted to change the corrupted system, so people could achieve eternal peace in his own way.

That is why what he said to Tobirama was entirely true, no matter how brutally honest it was.

"Man seeks peace, yet at the same time, yearns for war. These are the two realms that solely belong to man. Thinking of peace while spilling blood is something only humans can do. They're two sides of the same coin. To protect something....another must be sacrificed."

 

[Pumpkin Ninja]

@bold: that's not how I see it, no one can or should be able to blame their actions on the influences of others. By the evidence, Itachi agrees with this, and even takes pride in it. Regardless of the details, Itachi takes ownership of his actions, and Sasuke (rightly) holds him accountable. While Madara blamed everything he did on the way the world was & what it would always be (which he's right about) but that's weakness requires little self-acknowledgement which makes Madara a predictable psychotic sadist who's actions are predictable. While it is important to recognize that Itachi is not bound by any of his prior actions as “predictable” markers of his character. Itachi is not a psychotic, indiscriminate killer. He never was. He might enjoy cruelty, but that doesn’t mean we can label him a sadist. The only “truth” in Itachi’s reality is the action of the moment. As such we've seen Itachi making choices that may seem “out of pattern” for a S-class criminal. - abandoning fights, state that he has no interest in killing anyone unnecessarily, and even showing some degree of concern -

Itachi never turned a blind eye to anything in his life or anything that occurred in the world and he never blamed those things for any of his actions period.

My opinion.

Most of Itachi's actions were a direct result of the world. He decided to ignore that fact and self reflect but the reality is his life was objectively horrible due to the actions of others such as the Uchiha, Danzo, Hiruzen, etc and no amount of self reflection, or acceptance changes that. Madara didn't want others to be put into situations such as Itachi's. Itachi's philosophy deals with accepting your problems and owning up to them, but that doesn't address the root cause of them. You can tell yourself what happens, happens, all you want but in reality that will not change anything. To me, Madara tried to address the root of the problem. Our situations are a result of reality, not the other way around. But like I said, Itachi's is more realistic because we cannot change reality, we can only accept things as they are and make the best of them in this world. But it's because of this mentality that we allow people to suffer. In this world, people suffer because we accept that it is inevitable. Madara was everything against that mentality. Not afraid to stir up the world for change.

 

[JStar King]

Unsure why you've quoted my post. I've not acclaimed Itachi not to be a realist. However, both Madara, and Itachi harbored a complex compilation of idealist/realist ideals.

And it's just hilarious that'd you coup Obito, and Sasuke in the same line of reference as Itachi & Madara.

​

Yeah, my bad. My computer is out of whack.

 

[JStar King]

In my opinion, when it comes to these two characters, I believe this would be the right:

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[rockleeuchiha]

Uchiha's always resort to evil to attain their goals. That's why they always lose. Miserably so too.

agreed

 

[JStar King]

agreed

Let's agree to disagree.

 

[Pretentious]

Most of Itachi's actions were a direct result of the world. He decided to ignore that fact and self reflect but the reality is his life was objectively horrible due to the actions of others such as the Uchiha, Danzo, Hiruzen, etc and no amount of self reflection, or acceptance changes that. Madara didn't want others to be put into situations such as Itachi's. Itachi's philosophy deals with accepting your problems and owning up to them, but that doesn't address the root cause of them. You can tell yourself what happens, happens, all you want but in reality that will not change anything. To me, Madara tried to address the root of the problem. Our situations are a result of reality, not the other way around. But like I said, Itachi's is more realistic because we cannot change reality, we can only accept things as they are and make the best of them in this world. But it's because of this mentality that we allow people to suffer. In this world, people suffer because we accept that it is inevitable. Madara was everything against that mentality. Not afraid to stir up the world for change.

Bold I; Madara's as well, and every other character in the Naruto franchise -- You don't just do/think something without prior reference to reflect upon.

Bold II; Partially correct. However, Itachi's wisdom does in fact address the seeds of cause -- “How can we evolve when regulation is all we know?” -- Itachi & Madara both agreed on the system being insubstantial; labeling the system corrupt would be ignorance, as that's merely a one-sided perspective, and clearly others agreed the system worked i.e. Naruto, Hashirama etc.

Itachi blatantly agreed change was impossible with the current authorities, and laws set in stone, and he wasn't fearful of voicing his ideals.

 

[Pumpkin Ninja]

Bold I; Madara's as well, and every other character in the Naruto franchise -- You don't just do/think something without prior reference to reflect upon.

Bold II; Partially correct. However, Itachi's wisdom does in fact address the seeds of cause -- “How can we evolve when regulation is all we know?” -- Itachi & Madara both agreed on the system being insubstantial; labeling the system corrupt would be ignorance, as that's merely a one-sided perspective, and clearly others agreed the system worked i.e. Naruto, Hashirama etc.

Itachi blatantly agreed change was impossible with the current authorities, and laws set in stone, and he wasn't fearful of voicing his ideals.

Actually, you're right, I'm forgetting what he said to his father after he kicked those other Uchiha's asses, may have been what he believed and not just a front.

But a system that works for some and not others is still corrupt.

 

[Jokule67]

Madara is one of my faves but he is a prick.

His ideals arent fixing anything because its all fake. Meaning its unrealistic just like Hashis dream. No matter what Madara accomplishes, its fake.

The difference us one is right, the other is wrong. Madara actions are evil.

 

[UCHIHAKUNOICHI]

Everyone knows that both Madara and Itachi spoke the truth and nothing, but the truth. But who was more right considering their missions and different goals? If both these characters meet, who would win in a debate on the basis of their own purposes and what they fought for in life?

Madara's Quotes:

"This world is full of things that don't go as you wish. The longer you live the more you realize that reality is made of nothing but pain, suffering, and emptiness....listen....In this world, wherever there is light, there are also shadows. As long as the concept of winners exist, there will always be losers. The selfish desire to maintain peace creates war and hatred is born to protect love." (To Obito)

"Hashirama's country was nothing more than a shameful contradiction. Man seeks peace, yet at the same time, yearns for war. These are the two realms that solely belong to man. Thinking of peace while spilling blood is something only humans can do. They're two sides of the same coin. To protect something....another must be sacrificed. That is, only than that, a dream world." (To Tobirama)

"Nine-Tails, you are merely a momentary life, a temporary existence of coalesced energy… energy that once was a single, ultimate form! An unstable force, lacking in intelligence or sapience, you require a guide to show you purpose." (To Kurama)

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Itachi's Quotes:

"It's foolish to fear what we've yet to see and know!" (To Yashiro, Tekka, and Inabi)

"...People live their lives bound by what they accept as correct and true… that is how they define reality. But what does it mean to be correct or true? Merely vague concepts… their reality may all be an illusion." (To Sasuke)

"We don't know what kind of people we truly are until the moment before our deaths. As death comes to embrace you, you will realise what you are. That's what death is, don't you think?" (To Kisame)

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The question simply is, who would win in a debate based on their philosophies and truths. Would they be conflicted or understand each other despite their different missions and goals?

I consider that if they argumented about their ideas, Madara would have the upper hand as he knows the consequences of shinobi world in a deeper way Itachi knows. Of course Itachi would possible match with him as his ideas cling to hope and peace that always will return (after war of course).

 

[Jokule67]

Both sides are unrealistic. You cant force people to do what you want. Look at Madara, all that planning and he STILL failed.

Even when iT was activated, a few stood unaffected to oppose his new system.

Same with Hashi. Soon as Naruto united all major villages in a period of peace someone rises to strike down.

Thats why you hold in to peace as long as you can. Once its achieved, the future generation can learn from your example and history and build on it. Its all about progress.