Tsunade Versus Gokage Analysis

RedRobin · Nov 7, 2016

Good post Tazzilla, you definitely got him on stuff despite him claiming you are the biggest idiot all throughout the post.

Icelerate · Nov 7, 2016

Lightning armor invigorates one's body so don't act like speed is the only thing that is increased. It also increases one's reactions so once again using it doesn't imply he'd use his full speed.

KidGamer65 · Nov 7, 2016

Tazzilla88 said:
Yes he was. Here without a lightning cloak on.

You must be registered for see images

And here

You must be registered for see images

curiously also without a lightning cloak. Hmm how wondrous. I wonder why the only examples of Ay blantantly flying he has no raiton cloak.
I'm not sure you realize where they are in fact fighting. Somehow when you look at the scan you don't see the entire landscape. Rather only whats zoomed in on.

You must be registered for see images

They are clearly fighting near the meteor. And near tall rocky structures

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

I'll just accept the fact that your abilities to put yourself into the world are not as sharp as mine.

:lol If all you can do is cite examples where Ay isn't attacking either then don't even bother. As for the rest, If you were arguing your point with honesty you would've provided the scans that show the immediate area and not scans that show different areas of the battlefield.

You must be registered for see links

Those rocky structures you are showing don't reach higher than the tree branches Madara and Tsunade first clashed on so why the hell are you mentioning them? For Ay to jump off one of those and attack Madara in a straight line those platforms would have to be much higher than the tree branches they fought on as Madara was shot up into the air by Mei's Water Dragon. The only platform like is that is the one Madara was on when he used Katon, but Jinton managed to hit Madara so that platform was most likely taken out, and even if it wasn't, it's not in the right position to validate your argument.

The Meteor is an incredibly moot point to bring. It was in the vicinity but that portion of their fight didn't take place anywhere near it in terms of immediate area. :lol Even when they were hovering in the air they were pretty far from the Meteor let alone when Madara threw them into the forest. :lol

Then we have the fact that Ay's chops are superior to his fists in terms of damage potential. Weighted Boulder+Ay's fist when they disappeared from Madara's vision and struck him in the back blew a hole through Madara's V2 Susanoo and sent him crashing into the nearby boulders. Weighted Boulder + Karate Chop only cracked Madara's Ribcage. Meaning there is a difference between Ay's charge then and here and it doesn't take a genius to figure out that it's the speed behind both attacks. And that's because Ay was flying at Madara the first time, but used Shunshin the second time.

Then we have the fact that the illustrations of Ay's top speed Shunshin are shown completely different than what is shown in that panel you posted.

-Against Minato he's a flash of lightning.
-Same against Naruto.
-Against Madara w/ Onoki's help he vanishes from Madara's sight.

Yet against Madara we can see his path clearly. That's not how Shunshin is depicted in the Manga let alone Ay's Shunshin.

I'll just accept that your abilities to rationalize the information that you take in are not as sharp as mine.

Yeah no. Your grasping for straws here. We literally covered the fact that AY doesn't use raiton to boost his penetrative power. Hence why he called it Kakashi's trick. I'm not reposting the image since I've already countered that. Also how stupid, he wanted to increase the penetrating power of a punch the size of Naruto's face? That's not penetrating anything, unless its flush against something else. Like when it happened to Juugo, however what would happen otherwise? Oh I don't maybe what happens whenever raikage punches or elbows someone, they fly away instead of being penetrated. I would assume he's worked this bit of his power out himself. So why exactly would he be trying to penetrate in mid air with a fist?

And we covered the difference between piercing and cutting, so that's another garbage point from you. Raikiri pierces, that is Kakashi's trick. Ay's attack do not pierce. They are blunt force or they cut. Funny that you are still using this dumbass argument when we have scans of Ay using Raiton to increase his cutting power, i.e. when he cut his arm off. The rest is irrelevant. Who said Raikage penetrates with a fist? :lol I guess that's you not reading again, but considering the trash level argumentation you've been providing I can't say I'm surprised. Now read that again, but slower so you will actually be able to understand. Raikage's chops are cutting attacks. Raiton increases the cutting power of said attacks. Raikage's fists are not cutting attacks, so mentioning them is irrelevant.

And let's bring a better translation to shut you up on this moronic point once and for all.

You must be registered for see images

"A thrust attack" "power increased by Raiton".

Ay uses no thrust attacks. Karate Chops are not thrust attacks. Hence why it is Kakashi's jutsu and not his. Not to mention he said it's like Kakashi's jutsu. This scan also mentions nothing about penetration so you can't argue your ridiculous semantics and twist the meanings of words here.

Your very intent on not connecting dots. There is the fact that she came in before gravity took effect. Yet in the very next scan of them gravity has begun to take effect on all the kage.

You must be registered for see images

With Raikage's sleeve and Oonoki's hair blowing upward because they are beginning to descend. And while saying so what what he hadn't begun to fall. I think your question is how fast were they falling but the fact is that to not be falling at all so that their hair or sleeve isn't affected means less than a second. Further we know the snapshot between the kick and the next frame of all three kage falling happened quickly because Madara was shown as a blur.

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

No, you are very intent on not explaining how this is evidence she reacts to Ay's top speed well enough to block or evade. All you can do is cite speed feats without noting HOW THEY HELP YOUR CLAIM IN THE FIRST PLACE, but I can't blame you considering you are arguing something the Manga doesn't support.

The bold means she was able to travel a certain distance before gravity could make Ay fall, a distance you can't quantify because she was off panel and could've started moving at any point before Ay struck Madara. Her outspeeding gravity doesn't mean she reacts to V2 Ay.

Madara barely got his ribbing up in time. Which by this point he was fully aware he needed in order to counter Tsunade's strength.Again indicating the speed with which she swung

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

Ok? Not sure what merit you think the bold has in this specific argument but ok. :lol

Well, no shit sherlock. Why would he weighten Ay before the strike when Ay is using Oonoki to get more speed as I showed you in a scan right above. Damn. You really don't understand what Ay and Oonoki were doing as a two man team do you?

Also it's very obvious that Oonoki reacted to Ay as Ay did not simply stand behind Madara the first time the teamed up. In fact, Ay was moving when Oonoki started his jutsu before Ay reached Madz and it finished at the same time Ay's punch connected.

You must be registered for see images

I don't know where you got the stupid idea that Oonoki wasn't working with Ay's top speed and that Ay just sat behind Madara while Oonoki performed the technique

Now let's go over what really happened since you've made it pretty clear that you don't pay attention to any scans that don't have Tsunade on them.

-Ay charges Mu.
-Right when Ay is about to strike Mu (when he's reached him) Onoki makes him heavy thus increasing the power of his punch.

Where does Onoki need to react to Ay's speed to do such? Nowhere. His striking speed? Maybe. His overall speed? No, so let's cut the bullshit already. Now what happens after that:

-Onoki makes Ay light again AFTER he hits Mu.
-Disappears from Madara's vision.
-Appears behind him and begins to strike.
-As he is about to strike Onoki uses the Weighted Boulder Jutsu and increases his physical power.
-The scan shows Ay stopped as he strikes Madara in the back. Meaning Onoki only has to time his attacks with Ay's striking speed.

Not sure why you brought Onoki's reaction speed into the fold here when we are discussing TSUNADE. Not Onoki. Onoki being able to mentally time his attacks with Ay's attacks doesn't mean that Tsunade physically reacts to Ay well enough to block his attacks or dodge.

One would think that a man who dodges Gaara's sand without looking and dominates a crowd like this doesn't let his gaze linger when fighting multiple opponents.

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

And what does that change? Oh yes, it changes nothing. Madara didn't notice Tsunade until she hit him because of Ay. This counter would make sense if I had claimed that a moderate amount of time had passed in between Tsunade and Ay's strikes, but I didn't. So mentioning the fact that Madara can perceive and react to Ay's fastest attack isn't a thing that helps your argument.

:lol Read before you reply.

Because so little time had passed that Ay was actually still attacking... unless your willing to argue that his chop speed is so slow that Tsunade can come from a minimum distance is nearly the same distance the raikage traveled and strike in the time between his beginning and his he finishing of his strike

You must be registered for see images

1. Ay charges Madara.
2. Ay strikes. Attack over.
3. A moment after Ay strikes, Tsunade hits him.

Where is the speed feat? Where is the proof for the bold? You don't know where Ay started from so you can't claim anything about the distance he traveled. Not to mention you've yet to show Ay was moving at top speed. So again, you don't make sense. Not now and not ever.

The only feat you can infer from this is that Tsunade was able to come in and strike Madara after Ay hit him, but before Ay started to fall from gravity, thus she's fast. Without knowing the distance they both traveled in respect to each other your attempt is terrible nor does this prove she reacts to Ay's top speed.

Yeah yeah, fanboy this fanboy that. Except only one of us actually has detailed scans to back them up while the other just denies. For instance. "There is nothing to jump off of." Clearly a giant ass meteor and other large stones around. But hey yeah there is absolutely nothing there.

You have scans, and then you have idiotic examples and arguments in combination with them. Scans mean nothing when you are spewing the same garbage every fanboy loves to spew when their fav is being underrated. Absolutely pathetic.

Then why'd you bring up the sharingan and bring up that they are eyes designed to see speed and imply that there is no way Tsunade's eyes would keep up. You literally have no frame of reference for that argument besides the databook. And now to the databook. My argument toward the databook is two fold. One Tsunade's entry in the third databook didn't update her at all. Example: Tsunade used Remote Healing during the Pein arc. That jutsu didn't make an appearance in a databook til the fourth databook. There was no new information added about her. So naturally the databook numbers didn't change.
However, there's also this idea of the order of the canon and at the top of the order is the manga.

:lol I'll try to dumb this down so you will be able to understand.

-Sasuke is faster than Tsunade.
-GIVE HIM THE BENEFIT OF AN EYE THAT IS DESIGNED TO SEE SPEED AND THAT GAP INCREASES.
-Couldn't see Ay.
-How does Tsunade see him?

Oh wait, she doesn't. I'll dumb it down even further. In reaction speed:

-Hebi Sasuke>Tsunade.
-Sasuke+Sharingan>>Tsunade.
-Ay's speed too fast for Sasuke.
-Thus Ay's speed too fast for Tsunade.

Stop taking one part of the argument, making it my main argument and then replying to that as if you have some kind of point because you just look like a fool who doesn't read before he replies. And your counter argument makes zero sense. The databook goes until Jiraiya's death and Itachi's death. Tsunade's power didn't increase from that point till the Pain Arc as that is literally a couple dozen chapters, and she was in a coma from the middle of the Pain Arc to the mid/end Kage Summit Arc. :lol There is nothing Tsunade would've done that'd increase her power, but then we have the fact that MS Sasuke>Hebi Sasuke and the fact that DB doesn't take enhancements into account. Base Sasuke is faster than Base Tsunade by a whole point let alone w/ Sharingan. :lol :lol :lol

Don't talk about DB unless you are gonna show something that proves Tsunade powered up so much that the gap between their speed would close despite Sasuke having Sharingan on his side, which is more of a massive reaction speed boost than anything Tsunade has ever gotten in this Manga.

And obviously the order of canon has the Manga at the top, but where does the Manga disprove these scores? Nowhere. :lol And I'm talking about the actual Manga, not your flawed and disgusting view of the Manga's events. Manga shows that Sasuke's feats are far superior to anything Tsunade has ever done.

Tell me more about your fighting experience. Tell me more about how about how speed is the only thing that matters, please. Meanwhile this Martial Arts Instructor will be telling that you know nothing, if you think experience isn't power.

Experience isn't speed. Speed is what we are talking about in this portion of the discussion. Not power. So you can stop now. Tsunade having more experience than Sasuke is not and will not ever be an argument for why she will react to things faster than he can. Quit grasping at straws, it looks pathetic.

I assumed you were referring to Minato's shunshin.

Terrible assumption based on the context of the argument.

But now check this out. We've already established that Tsunade can react to Ay's striking speed. (given the fact that she attacked while Ay was still atacking. Oh and this.)

You must be registered for see images

Well, necessarily to hit someone you must strike them. And if Tsunade can close the minimum distance that can be inferred from this scan, and connect an attack while Ay is still attacking. She can get a counter hit in if Ay runs in and attacks her, as she has already shown herself of connecting a hit while Ay is attacking.

You must be registered for see images

Nope. Reacting while on looking isn't the same as reacting when you are the target nor does reacting to Ay's striking speed mean that she can react to a Shunshin+Strike. Your whole minimum distance nonsense has been addressed above.

Well I was being purposefully ridiculous to match the stupidity you've been uttering. IT was intentional to let you know how you sound to me.

Of course logical arguments sound stupid to a fanboy. :lol

Eh that wasn't what I was saying Just a typo from typing early in the morning. I was saying then Ay must use a different method to cut. As cutting is an extension of piercing. As to cut one must first pierce the surface of a thing.
Examples of this Raikiri and its variations be used to cut and slash
3rd Raikage's nukite cutting the rubber ball

The bold are words I'm not sure you understand the definitions of.

I'm pretty sure that is always the only argument accepted here. Lest I bring up Tsunade's 4 elements. As if it probably happened off panel is a way to state a fact :lol

Holy. :lol

The action of cutting is what Madara did to those Mountains with Susanoo. The action of piercing is what Chidori was made for. Piercing is making a hole in and through something (Webster definition before you start spouting nonsense). That's not cutting. Rakiri being able to be used to cut doesn't mean that it's purpose is to cut. Raikiri is traditionally a piercing technique.

-Ay didn't pierce his arm. He cut it off.
-Ay didn't pierce the Hachibi's horn, he cut it off. And it was a clean cut too. :lol

And it's variants are irrelevant. Raikiri variants are NOT Raikiri. They are VARIANTS.

Well boy, when you said if the Kusunagi can cut her then so can Ay that would be a direct comparison between the two. Unless of course you comparing his cutting power to that of madara's susanoo

There are literally only two swords you can be talking about. Take your pick.

I was obviously referring to the physics behind why it can cut her not it's power, but you would know that if you had actually read.

Do you know the definition of accross? Do you know the definition of through? I'm not sure you do. Orochimaru's blade went across her chest then tried to go through it. It didn't go across it was clearly moving to go through. And don't give me that it's because it was the chest bull shit because it certainly didn't save he guy on the left.

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see links

Across.

I'll agree that the second time wasn't across the chest, but I already addressed this regardless and doing what you guys do best when cornered you ignored it. The blade was moving to take Naruto's head off. Doesn't change the fact that it was too shallow with not enough reach to cut Tsunade in half.

So? he can casually lift people with his tongue. I mean after all Orochimaru's head was strong enough for this

You must be registered for see images

Speaking about Orochimaru's anatomy like its similar to any other character in the NV

Didn't know that Orochimaru's extending and expanding tongue was the same as his neck muscles.

His head? Lmao. More like his head neck and the power of his extending blade and the power of his extending neck that let him do that. Where was any of this done against Tsunade? Oh yes. I know.

Nowhere. You might as well drop this argument. Even if Orochimaru was unable to bisect her with Kusanagi, I never claimed Ay would run up to her and chop her in half so this is a useless argument to make. Ay can cut his own limbs off w/ his Raiton. Ay is far more durable than Tsunade is as we've already established. If he can cut his own limbs off then he can cut through Tsunade's limbs. Ay's V2 Lightning Straight is far stronger than Madara's Ribcage Magatama which put a hole in Tsunade's abdomen or stomach. Ay's Karate Chop is more penetrative than his lightning straight as Madara blocked the punch, but his chop broke past Sasuke's Susanoo and hit him.

i mean it doesn't cut whenever. Certainly not in the heat of battle.

AND WHAT IS THIS BASED ON?

Oh wait. Nothing. The heat of battle doesn't change the mechanics of a jutsu.

Ay isn't waiting Tsunade out. Nothing that we know about him says he going to sit around for hours.

Yet you know that Tsunade will do the same? Can we stop with the double standards? You sound foolish. Not to mention I've already addressed what Ay will do if it comes to this and have gotten no response.

Then answer the question of how he got to the other side when in his v1 state he could be tracked by Sasuke's sharingan. Yet for some reason Sasuke couldn't see him running away in base?

-Sasuke hits B w/ Chidori to paralyze him. Hits Suigetsu too on accident

You must be registered for see links

-Grabs Suigetsu and jumps away after Jugo comes at B.

You must be registered for see links

So Sasuke wasn't looking B's direction to track him in the first place. :lol

I mean yes, I'm toying with you but only because you don't see how foolishly flawed your arguments are

More like "yes, I'm arguing because I hope you'll concede even though even I know I don't make sense".

No, what it does mean is that Tsunade is far more competent in CQC than Ay is to push him with the same support Ay got. As Ay and Tsunade both specialize in CQC. Which is already a given considering it wasn't Ay attacking with everyone else backing him. And that my friend is why experience is power. Because yes, the raikage is faster than Tsunade but that doesn't mean he with the assistance of Mei can push Madara into a corner.

That doesn't mean that Tsunade defeats Ay in combat. :lol Nor does that address what I said about speed. :lol All you are doing is wasting your time with this point because obviously against Madara Tsunade would perform far better than Ay would in close combat because she can actually break his guard and through his Susanoo.

Of course with all of this said I doubt you get what I'm arguing.
Because I'm not arguing Tsunade is faster than Ay. But I would be arguing that in the same vein as Oonoki using his jutsu while Ay is in motion having it perfectly time with Ay's attack, or in the vein pf Gaara blocking the Guillotine drop, that Tsunade won't be just getting beat unable to respond whatsoever. No kage level ninja has failed to react. Bee in base even reacted to Minato's speed which is superior than Ay's. Being at that level is a different benchmark.
There is no kage Ay just plows through.

This is why you shouldn't be taken seriously. All you do is type walls but what you are actually saying is beyond idiotic.

-Already addressed Onoki.
-Gaara blocking a free falling Ay is the same as blocking a top speed Ay?
-B didn't react to Minato's speed. Not to mention that is B. B is B. B is not Tsunade nor does B doing something mean that Tsunade can do the same or a watered down version because "lol Kage level"

"No kage level Ninja has failed to react" is a stupid argument to make. How many people in this Manga have faced Ay's top speed?

-Naruto.
-Minato.
-Madara.

3 out of the over a dozen Kage leveled Shinobi in this Manga. 3 of the strongest and fastest people in the Kage leveled branch being capable of reacting to Ay's top speed isn't evidence that your favorite reacts. Are you going to argue something as stupid as "Mei reacts to Ay's top speed because no Kage leveled ninja has failed to react. It's different benchmark". "Hebi Sasuke reacts to Ay's top speed because no Kage leveled Ninja has failed to react. It's a different benchmark". :lol

And whoever said Ay plows through Tsunade? I simply said she can't react to his speed and he can cut so she loses. :lol I never said how badly she loses nor did I say she won't be able to act at all nor did I say Ay one shots her. Maybe you should stop assuming shit. Makes you look like extremely defensive fanboy for absolutely no reason. :lol

RedRobin said:
Good post Tazzilla, you definitely got him on stuff despite him claiming you are the biggest idiot all throughout the post.

No, you are the biggest idiot in this thread. :lol He's runner up.

RedRobin · Nov 7, 2016

Icelerate said:
Lightning armor invigorates one's body so don't act like speed is the only thing that is increased. It also increases one's reactions so once again using it doesn't imply he'd use his full speed.

Raiton Chakra collects on the body, it's a body invigoration ninjutsu. From inside the body lightning gushes out, the speed of ones nerve transmissions rises. The body is wrapped in lightning, the jutsu durability is like that of armor. The Raikages' application of it causes their combat power to rise considerably.

It managed to chase Naruto's Bijuu Chakra Mode, however it was inferior to the great speed of the Yellow-Flash

As does Byakugo. Which also raises the users power. Lets not skip around the bush and act like Byakugo wouldnt have raised her speed and reactions to a huge extent. Especially with the amount of chakra that allowed Onoki to do super Jinton flowing all over her damn body.

And no before we get into an argument about how it only increased her strength :lol the panel used in the DB shows Tsunade hitting Madara which is not simply a sign of increased strength but overall increase in one's combat abilities i.e. speed and reactions.

Only reason Raiton chakra mode speeds up nerve transmission is because nerve transmissions are electrical impulses. The raiton essentially charges up these impulses, well the same will be said for Byakugo which is essentially the same power up as all the others like a Kyuubi cloak. The fact that people have never wanted to talk about that again reigns true to the fact that Tsunade is seen on a lower level. But no I just wank her right.

I have more evidence as well if needed.

This all connects back to the fact that this allows Tsunade to easily keep up with Ay. As shown in the manga which KG loves to ignore or downplay.

KG:No, you are the biggest idiot in this thread. :lol He's runner up.

Thanks.

Icelerate · Nov 7, 2016

^^I never denied Byakogou raises one's power as it was stated in the databook that it is more than just simple regeneration. Though the speed/reaction increase is nothing compared to raiton armour based on both feats and manga statements.

KidGamer65 · Nov 7, 2016

Icelerate said:
^^I never denied Byakogou raises one's power as it was stated in the databook that it is more than just simple regeneration. Though the speed/reaction increase is nothing compared to raiton armour based on both feats and manga statements.

Inb4 "Oh it does because I want my Goddess Tsunade to be the best there ever was" :lol

BLAZE · Nov 7, 2016

So Tazilla just asking how do u think Tsunade fares against Tobirama;Minato and Hiruzen 1 vs 1

RedRobin · Nov 7, 2016

Icelerate said:
^^I never denied Byakogou raises one's power as it was stated in the databook that it is more than just simple regeneration. Though the speed/reaction increase is nothing compared to raiton armour based on both feats and manga statements.

No you havent denied that however you have downplayed it tremendously. Trying to argue against the fact that Byakugo Tsunade easily out-sped Base Ay and the rest of the gokage :lol.

When in reality because of Byakugo she was able to attack in combination with Ay+Onoki. Again you dont do that if you cant match up in speed and reactions, that wouldnt make sense.

Again since you need extra justification when it comes to Tsunade.

You must be registered for see links

was the amount of already molded chakra flowing through her body.

KidGamer65 said:
Inb4 "Oh it does because I want my Goddess Tsunade to be the best there ever was" :lol

Lol. Funny.

Tazzilla88 · Nov 7, 2016

KidGamer65 said:
:lol If all you can do is cite examples where Ay isn't attacking either then don't even bother. As for the rest, If you were arguing your point with honesty you would've provided the scans that show the immediate area and not scans that show different areas of the battlefield.

well jackass, they are the only scans of him flying. There is literally no evidence to point to no other scenario. You simply want him to be flying.

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

Hmm did you see this forestry in either of these scans?

You must be registered for see images

No? Then, shut up. Because that's enough evidence to suggest they ended up moving.

Those rocky structures you are showing don't reach higher than the tree branches Madara and Tsunade first clashed on so why the hell are you mentioning them? For Ay to jump off one of those and attack Madara in a straight line those platforms would have to be much higher than the tree branches they fought on as Madara was shot up into the air by Mei's Water Dragon. The only platform like is that is the one Madara was on when he used Katon, but Jinton managed to hit Madara so that platform was most likely taken out, and even if it wasn't, it's not in the right position to validate your argument

WEll, I mean they clearly do.
The kages fell to the forest floor.

You must be registered for see images

Madara jumped off of his perch.

You must be registered for see images

Meaning he was near the bottom of the battlefield below where all the mokuton had been before jinton. Thus why only stumps are visible.

The Meteor is an incredibly moot point to bring. It was in the vicinity but that portion of their fight didn't take place anywhere near it in terms of immediate area. :lol Even when they were hovering in the air they were pretty far from the Meteor let alone when Madara threw them into the forest. :lol

Closer than you think.

You must be registered for see images

Then we have the fact that Ay's chops are superior to his fists in terms of damage potential.

Really? Prove that the chops are more dangerous than the attack he came at Naruto with.

Because Weighted Boulder+Ay's fist when they disappeared from Madara's vision and struck him in the back blew a hole through Madara's V2 Susanoo and sent him crashing into the nearby boulders. Weighted Boulder + Karate Chop only cracked Madara's Ribcage. Meaning there is a difference between Ay's charge then and here and it doesn't take a genius to figure out that it's the speed behind both attacks. And that's because Ay was flying at Madara the first time, but used Shunshin the second time.

Also if Raikage's chop was going to cut a non reinforced human sized target in the heat of battle Itwouldn't have cracked Madara's susanoo. Cracking is a sign of blunt force. Rather a blade would do something like this.

You must be registered for see images

And when we saw Ay come at Sasuke's susanoo with a chop we see susanoo shards in the air. Shards that shouldn't be present if Raikage was cutting.

You must be registered for see images

Then we have the fact that the illustrations of Ay's top speed Shunshin are shown completely different than what is shown in that panel you posted.

-Against Minato he's a flash of lightning.
-Same against Naruto.
-Against Madara w/ Onoki's help he vanishes from Madara's sight.

Oonoki + Ay is faster than anything Ay can do alone. That's obvious. And at his top speed speed Ay said he needed more speed. So... Ay's top speed would have been the punch followed by a chop. We got to see his top speed movement there. Because the fight against Madara was on a completely different level than any fight seen previous to this. So something that is so fast that one disappears before is now blockable to Madara.

Yet against Madara we can see his path clearly. That's not how Shunshin is depicted in the Manga let alone Ay's Shunshin.

Except we saw his path twice when he attacked Minato. And he was never too fast for Madara so of course he wouldn't be hidden from viewer's view.

And we covered the difference between piercing and cutting, so that's another garbage point from you. Raikiri pierces, that is Kakashi's trick. Ay's attack do not pierce. They are blunt force or they cut. Funny that you are still using this dumbass argument when we have scans of Ay using Raiton to increase his cutting power, i.e. when he cut his arm off. The rest is irrelevant. Who said Raikage penetrates with a fist?:lol I guess that's you not reading again, but considering the trash level argumentation you've been providing I can't say I'm surprised. Now read that again, but slower so you will actually be able to understand. Raikage's chops are cutting attacks. Raiton increases the cutting power of said attacks. Raikage's fists are not cutting attacks, so mentioning them is irrelevant.

He's not just hacking through limbs. His chops have shown crushing power in the heat of battle. If it were actually cutting susanno then he would have simply left gashes in it, not cracks.

And let's bring a better translation to shut you up on this moronic point once and for all.

You must be registered for see images

"A thrust attack" "power increased by Raiton".

Ay uses no thrust attacks. Karate Chops are not thrust attacks. Hence why it is Kakashi's jutsu and not his. Not to mention he said it's like Kakashi's jutsu. This scan also mentions nothing about penetration so you can't argue your ridiculous semantics and twist the meanings of words here.

Then bring me the original Japanese. As someone who speaks 4 languages translating things can be difficult. And Viz doesn't always get it right. Given the breadth of difference between the two translations we just read that is the only way to resolve this.

No, you are very intent on not explaining how this is evidence she reacts to Ay's top speed well enough to block or evade. All you can do is cite speed feats without noting HOW THEY HELP YOUR CLAIM IN THE FIRST PLACE, but I can't blame you considering you are arguing something the Manga doesn't support.

The bold means she was able to travel a certain distance before gravity could make Ay fall, a distance you can't quantify because she was off panel and could've started moving at any point before Ay struck Madara. Her outspeeding gravity doesn't mean she reacts to V2 Ay.

You idiot, In the time it takes Ay to reach the susanoo and finish striking Tsunade is already there. Coming in from a distance further than the last location we saw Ay at. It's not rocket science.

Ok? Not sure what merit you think the bold has in this specific argument but ok. :lol

Think, just a little harder. Before Ay could launch a second attack Madara had his ribcage up.

Now let's go over what really happened since you've made it pretty clear that you don't pay attention to any scans that don't have Tsunade on them.

-Ay charges Mu.
-Right when Ay is about to strike Mu (when he's reached him) Onoki makes him heavy thus increasing the power of his punch.

Where does Onoki need to react to Ay's speed to do such? Nowhere. His striking speed? Maybe. His overall speed? No, so let's cut the bullshit already.

Ay never stopped his shunshin. He was continually running until after he punched Madara. Which means that Oonoki timed up his attack with Ay's shunshin. A shunshin that was hyped to be faster than Ay's quickest speed. Period.

-Onoki makes Ay light again AFTER he hits Mu.

What the hell? Show me, Oonoki using two separate jutsus. Please. Oh that's right, he didn't. He used only one weightening jutsu as Ay shunshin. All else is fan fic.

-The scan shows Ay stopped as he strikes Madara in the back. Meaning Onoki only has to time his attacks with Ay's striking speed.

Maybe if Oonoki hadn't started the jutsu before Ay was behind Madara you'd have a point.

Not sure why you brought Onoki's reaction speed into the fold here when we are discussing TSUNADE. Not Onoki. Onoki being able to mentally time his attacks with Ay's attacks doesn't mean that Tsunade physically reacts to Ay well enough to block his attacks or dodge.

Because my larger point is that a kage isn't getting completely blindsided by Ay. Kage level does mean something as indicated by the fodders (Dodai and others) who went after Mu and felt that the power of the gokage was on a completely different level.

You must be registered for see images

And what does that change? Oh yes, it changes nothing. Madara didn't notice Tsunade until she hit him because of Ay.

Yet he managed to look at everyone he needed to in the scans I posted. Was looking at his target. Gaara's sand haults his blade. He looks at the sand. Then into the eyes of a shinobi before he could strike. My point being there is no reason why Madara would be blind sided even looking at someone else even if he was looking at Ay.

1. Ay charges Madara.
2. Ay strikes. Attack over.
3. A moment after Ay strikes, Tsunade hits him.

Last thing we see of Ay is his hand on Susanoo. The next pov we have he is still directly behind Susanoo. No movement lines on Susanoo to suggest it was in motion. So how do you make this claim exactly? Oh you pulled it out of your ass? Cool. You now have the definitive misfortune of me being both sober and fully awake now instead of me being stoned at 4am posting.

Where is the speed feat? Where is the proof for the bold? You don't know where Ay started from so you can't claim anything about the distance he traveled. Not to mention you've yet to show Ay was moving at top speed. So again, you don't make sense. Not now and not ever.

Why are you so dumb. We have a point of reference for Ay. That point of reference is a starting distance as starting distance doesn't necessarily mean the distance at which he started moving but the distance at which we can start measuring. Tsunade is demonstrably further than that distance. Yet she gets there before Susanoo moves away from Ay, while Ay is still following through on his strike.

The only feat you can infer from this is that Tsunade was able to come in and strike Madara after Ay hit him, but before Ay started to fall from gravity, thus she's fast. Without knowing the distance they both traveled in respect to each other your attempt is terrible nor does this prove she reacts to Ay's top speed.

Except we have a frame of reference for both of their positions and Ay is closer. Tsunade is further than where we saw Ay therefore we can use the minimum possible distance traveled as a point of reference. Though a more accurate way to assess this would be to take into account the angle at which Tsunade struck in the final panel and create an arc resulting with that direction to figure out where Tsunade came from. In either case its further than the point of reference we have for Ay. So please, shut up.

You have scans, and then you have idiotic examples and arguments in combination with them. Scans mean nothing when you are spewing the same garbage every fanboy loves to spew when their fav is being underrated. Absolutely pathetic.

All you do is herp de derp He was flying herp de derp. I have no scans to suggest this. But it must be so because herp de derp. I know I saw Ay continuously moving while Oonoki used a single jutsu timed with Ay's movement but herp de derp Oonoki used two jutsus and Ay was stationary herp de derp.

:lol I'll try to dumb this down so you will be able to understand.

This is the problem. It's already dumbed down. I'm trying to elevate you.

-Sasuke is faster than Tsunade.
-GIVE HIM THE BENEFIT OF AN EYE THAT IS DESIGNED TO SEE SPEED AND THAT GAP INCREASES.
-Couldn't see Ay.
-How does Tsunade see him?

I'm not even going down this stupid ass rabbit hole. Because she has always seen Ay in the cannon. The only thing she ever noted to be unable to see was in fact faster than Ay. Shut the hell up with your stupid denials.

-Hebi Sasuke>Tsunade.
-Sasuke+Sharingan>>Tsunade.
-Ay's speed too fast for Sasuke.
-Thus Ay's speed too fast for Tsunade.

Tsunade's light speed reaction shits on anything in Hebi Sasuke's arsenal. Next.

Stop taking one part of the argument, making it my main argument and then replying to that as if you have some kind of point because you just look like a fool who doesn't read before he replies. And your counter argument makes zero sense. The databook goes until Jiraiya's death and Itachi's death. Tsunade's power didn't increase from that point till the Pain Arc as that is literally a couple dozen chapters, and she was in a coma from the middle of the Pain Arc to the mid/end Kage Summit Arc. :lol There is nothing Tsunade would've done that'd increase her power, but then we have the fact that MS Sasuke>Hebi Sasuke and the fact that DB doesn't take enhancements into account. Base Sasuke is faster than Base Tsunade by a whole point let alone w/ Sharingan. :lol :lol :lol

Arguments build. Take the first part, make it invalid. A valid conclusion is made based off of valid propositions. This is basic logic. Back when I took Formal Logic in college this was so simple that we spent less explaining it than I just did here.
My point is that none of Tsunade's entry had been updated at all. Fool.
I'm well aware Tsunade hadn't improved between Pein and War. However she had the same exact stats as part 1. And how does her War arc performance compare to part 1? They blow them out of the water in every single way. Meaning that she necessarily improved between Part 1 and the War arc. Since it couldn't have happened when she was in a coma when did it happen? Obviously during the gap. Well why didn't the numbers reflect a change? Obviously because her entry hadn't been updated hence why a jutsu she used during the pein invasion arc didn't show up in a databook until the 4th databook.

Don't talk about DB unless you are gonna show something that proves Tsunade powered up so much that the gap between their speed would close despite Sasuke having Sharingan on his side, which is more of a massive reaction speed boost than anything Tsunade has ever gotten in this Manga.

She led the charge pressuring a ninja >>>>> than Hebi Sasuke literally all you need to know to be aware that her speed increased dramatically. She also intercepted Madara's fireballs faster than Mei could weave handseals. What kind of horse shit are you going on about now, suggesting Tsunade's War arc Speed isn't tiers above part 1. GTFOH

And obviously the order of canon has the Manga at the top, but where does the Manga disprove these scores? Nowhere. :lol And I'm talking about the actual Manga, not your flawed and disgusting view of the Manga's events. Manga shows that Sasuke's feats are far superior to anything Tsunade has ever done.

Simple comparison between part 1 and War arc

Experience isn't speed. Speed is what we are talking about in this portion of the discussion. Not power. So you can stop now. Tsunade having more experience than Sasuke is not and will not ever be an argument for why she will react to things faster than he can. Quit grasping at straws, it looks pathetic.

No, speed is what your talking about. I'm talking about her ability to react which is based on more than just speed. It's based on pattern recognition. It's based on what target areas are left open. Lanes of attack. Efficient ways to counter attack immediately. Etc.

Terrible assumption based on the context of the argument.

Not really. You've been saying some stupid stuff I've just been too high and sleepy to really call you out.

Nope. Reacting while on looking isn't the same as reacting when you are the target nor does reacting to Ay's striking speed mean that she can react to a Shunshin+Strike. Your whole minimum distance nonsense has been addressed above.

Perhaps, a distance isn't the same as up close but it puts her movement speed in reacting tier.
You addressed jack shit, you've just been dancing around in a circle proving nothing. She struck as Ay was striking regardless of distance. As if we are talking about striking speed, striking while Ay his still their following through on his attack is enough to declare she gets in a counter attack. Stop being dumb. You're embarrassing yourself.

The action of cutting is what Madara did to those Mountains with Susanoo. The action of piercing is what Chidori was made for. Piercing is making a hole in and through something (Webster definition before you start spouting nonsense). That's not cutting. Rakiri being able to be used to cut doesn't mean that it's purpose is to cut. Raikiri is traditionally a piercing technique

. So to cut the mountain does the blade need to pierce the outer layer?
Also How convenient that you cherry picked websters definition but don't worry I got you bro.

Full Definition of pierce
piercedpiercing
transitive verb
1
a : to run into or through as a pointed weapon does : stab
b : to enter or thrust into sharply or painfully
2
: to make a hole through : perforate
3
: to force or make a way into or through
4
: to penetrate with the eye or mind : discern
5
: to penetrate so as to move or touch the emotions of

Synonym Discussion of pierce
enter, penetrate, pierce, probe mean to make way into something. enter is the most general of these and may imply either going in or forcing a way in <entered the city in triumph>. penetrate carries a strong implication of an impelling force or compelling power that achieves entrance <the enemy penetrated the fortress>. pierce means an entering or cutting through with a sharp pointed instrument <pierced the boil with a lancet>. probe implies penetration to investigate or explore something hidden from sight or knowledge <probed the depths of the sea>.

Oh what's that the definition you quoted in part actually proves my point when it's not cherry picked. Oh well isn't that the perfect analogy for this entire debate.

-Ay didn't pierce his arm. He cut it off.

He pierced his skin idiot.

-Ay didn't pierce the Hachibi's horn, he cut it off. And it was a clean cut too. :lol

Dictionary disagrees

And it's variants are irrelevant. Raikiri variants are NOT Raikiri. They are VARIANTS.

Oh yes squares are variants of quadrilaterals and polygons so they have different properties than polygons. Oh. Wait.

I was obviously referring to the physics behind why it can cut her not it's power, but you would know that if you had actually read.

Except the physics obviously depend on the sword used. When was the last time you studied physics high school :lol

You must be registered for see links

Across.

*Slow Claps* Good boy

I'll agree that the second time wasn't across the chest, but I already addressed this regardless and doing what you guys do best when cornered you ignored it. The blade was moving to take Naruto's head off. Doesn't change the fact that it was too shallow with not enough reach to cut Tsunade in half.

So Orochimaru was going through with enough force to cut through a spine and yet couldn't make it past a rib. Yes, no shit it was too shallow because her durable body stopped the blade.

Didn't know that Orochimaru's extending and expanding tongue was the same as his neck muscles.

Well in order to do any of those things Orochimaru's neck would have to be strong enough to support the force of an adult man and his head wouldn't it?

His head? Lmao. More like his head neck and the power of his extending blade and the power of his extending neck that let him do that. Where was any of this done against Tsunade? Oh yes. I know.

How is extending even relevant. Stop posting straw men. The fact is Oro's neck is strong enough to break through compacted earth. Lift Naruto and send him flying away. Thus easily enough power in his neck to bisect. Period.

Nowhere. You might as well drop this argument. Even if Orochimaru was unable to bisect her with Kusanagi, I never claimed Ay would run up to her and chop her in half so this is a useless argument to make.

Well that's because you loss track of the argument.

Ay can cut his own limbs off w/ his Raiton. Ay is far more durable than Tsunade is as we've already established. If he can cut his own limbs off then he can cut through Tsunade's limbs.

Height of battle

Ay's V2 Lightning Straight is far stronger than Madara's Ribcage Magatama which put a hole in Tsunade's abdomen or stomach.

Are you stupid? The magatama did nothing. The hole is obviously from the sword. Also nothing indicates that if Ay hit a body into a wall it would leave more damage than Tsunade's body did. Hitting the wall itself is a different transference of force.

Ay's Karate Chop is more penetrative than his lightning straight as Madara blocked the punch, but his chop broke past Sasuke's Susanoo and hit him.

Sasuke =/= Madara. Madara also blocked Tsunade's kick which he directly stated was stronger than Ay's anything. Shut up.

AND WHAT IS THIS BASED ON?

Oh wait. Nothing. The heat of battle doesn't change the mechanics of a jutsu.

Literally posted a scan of Kabuto saying the heat of battle affected his blade length.

Yet you know that Tsunade will do the same? Can we stop with the double standards? You sound foolish. Not to mention I've already addressed what Ay will do if it comes to this and have gotten no response.

Actually in the Madara battle her first instinct was to camp. When Naruto came after her did she run anywhere? No. So there is obviously more evidence Tsunade is willing to camp than an Ay who charged into Amaterasu when he could have waited it out

-Sasuke hits B w/ Chidori to paralyze him. Hits Suigetsu too on accident

You must be registered for see links

-Grabs Suigetsu and jumps away after Jugo comes at B.

You must be registered for see links

So Sasuke wasn't looking B's direction to track him in the first place. :lol

Answer the question I actually asked

That doesn't mean that Tsunade defeats Ay in combat. :lol Nor does that address what I said about speed. :lol All you are doing is wasting your time with this point because obviously against Madara Tsunade would perform far better than Ay would in close combat because she can actually break his guard and through his Susanoo.

Except he wasn't using Susanoo when she cornered him.

This is why you shouldn't be taken seriously. All you do is type walls but what you are actually saying is beyond idiotic.

-Already addressed Onoki.

Wrong
-Gaara blocking a free falling Ay is the same as blocking a top speed Ay?

-B didn't react to Minato's speed. Not to mention that is B. B is B. B is not Tsunade nor does B doing something mean that Tsunade can do the same or a watered down version because "lol Kage level"

Levels of ability have been important throughout this manga thus the tiering system. And yes Bee did.

"No kage level Ninja has failed to react" is a stupid argument to make. How many people in this Manga have faced Ay's top speed?

-Naruto.
-Minato.
-Madara.

And both Tsunade and Oonoki attacked with him.

And whoever said Ay plows through Tsunade? I simply said she can't react to his speed and he can cut so she loses. :lol I never said how badly she loses nor did I say she won't be able to act at all nor did I say Ay one shots her. Maybe you should stop assuming shit. Makes you look like extremely defensive fanboy for absolutely no reason. :lol

She can't react is the same as she won't be able to act at all. Idiot. Reactions are not conscious things. They are instinctive.

No, you are the biggest idiot in this thread. :lol He's runner up.

No, my son. That title is reserved for you

KidGamer65 · Nov 8, 2016

Tazzilla88 said:
well jackass, they are the only scans of him flying. There is literally no evidence to point to no other scenario. You simply want him to be flying.

No, there is plenty of evidence that points to him simply flying and not using Shunshin. Meanwhile you are relying on off panel structures to prove that Ay jumped off of them to use Shunshin off panel. Hmm, I wonder if anyone can notice the trend here.

Hmm did you see this forestry in either of these scans?

You must be registered for see images

No? Then, shut up. Because that's enough evidence to suggest they ended up moving.

That location they moved to is AFTER Tsunade knocked Madara to the ground with her kick, which is AFTER Ay himself attacked Madara so why are you bringing this up? :lol.

WEll, I mean they clearly do.
The kages fell to the forest floor.

You must be registered for see images

Madara jumped off of his perch.

You must be registered for see images

Meaning he was near the bottom of the battlefield below where all the mokuton had been before jinton. Thus why only stumps are visible.

Yes, the one I specifically pointed out in my post is what reaches above. Thanks for being my echo.

Closer than you think.

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

Yes, that close after Madara had been knocked that close by Tsunade.

You must be registered for see links

is the immediate surrounding

You must be registered for see links

of where Ay and Tsunade hit his Susanoo. The Meteor is not close to that area and that area is where what we are discussing went down so stop bringing scans of other phases of the battle.

Really? Prove that the chops are more dangerous than the attack he came at Naruto with. Also if Raikage's chop was going to cut a non reinforced human sized target in the heat of battle Itwouldn't have cracked Madara's susanoo. Cracking is a sign of blunt force. Rather a blade would do something like this.

You must be registered for see images

And when we saw Ay come at Sasuke's susanoo with a chop we see susanoo shards in the air. Shards that shouldn't be present if Raikage was cutting.

You must be registered for see images

Don't ask me to prove my point without responding to what I provided to prove my point. :lol Raikage's chop busted through Susanoo. Raikage's punch was blocked by Madara without Susanoo, and of course the bold is false It's a hard substance and his hand isn't large enough for any kind of bisection so why would him hitting Ribcage not create any sort of crack? Your Madara example is terrible because that's not a Ribcage Susanoo, that's the aura of Madara's Susanoo.

All this means is that the "blade" Ay cuts with isn't as sharp or refined as any other blade. It's still a fact he's cut Hachibi's horn and his own limbs so you can dance around those two feats as long as you'd like. Won't change the facts.

Oonoki + Ay is faster than anything Ay can do alone. That's obvious. And at his top speed speed Ay said he needed more speed. So... Ay's top speed would have been the punch followed by a chop. We got to see his top speed movement there. Because the fight against Madara was on a completely different level than any fight seen previous to this. So something that is so fast that one disappears before is now blockable to Madara.

-We know that Onoki+Ay is faster than what Ay can do alone.
-We know that Ay needed his top speed.

And of course you didn't address what is stated in that quote. Ay's Shunshin (and most Shunshin in the Manga if not all) is illustrated as a flash of lightning or some sort of blur to denote that it's high speed movement. What Madara can or cannot block is irrelevant to the argument. What the depiction of Shunshin traditionally is shown to be is what is relevant in this argument. :lol

Except we saw his path twice when he attacked Minato. And he was never too fast for Madara so of course he wouldn't be hidden from viewer's view.

Wrong. The first time he attacked Madara he vanished. And what are you even talking about? His path is irrelevant. The fact that he's always depicted as a blur (like anyone who uses Shunshin) or a bolt of lightning means that he wasn't using Shunshin when him and Onoki flew at Madara.

Then bring me the original Japanese. As someone who speaks 4 languages translating things can be difficult. And Viz doesn't always get it right. Given the breadth of difference between the two translations we just read that is the only way to resolve this.

:lol There is nothing to resolve. VIZ is the most accurate (most of the time) that's readily available, so if you want to jump through hoops to try and prove yourself right even though you wouldn't do this for any other VIZ scan you can do it on your own time and simply concede this part of the argument.

"Oooo VIZ probably isn't right now that it proves me wrong"

Of course, when VIZ tears apart your dumbass argument apart it becomes inaccurate. Lmao you really are something else. Your true colors are starting to show.

You idiot, In the time it takes Ay to reach the susanoo and finish striking Tsunade is already there. Coming in from a distance further than the last location we saw Ay at. It's not rocket science.

There is no "finish striking". The bold is a claim you can't make because you don't know when Tsunade actually started charging towards Madara. If she started charging before Ay did then this claim is false. "the last location we saw Ay in" is irrelevant. This is what is relevant:

-Where Ay departed from.
-Where Tsunade departed from.
-When Ay departed.
-When Tsunade departed.

All you know is that Tsunade can come from the distance you highlighted before Ay can begin to fall down. Nothing more. So cut the bullshit and stop wanking.

Think, just a little harder. Before Ay could launch a second attack Madara had his ribcage up.

Now it's your turn to think. How does this prove that Tsunade can react to Ay's speed. That is what we are arguing about in case you forgot. :lol Now let me help you understand what really happened since you seem to have a hard time doing that on your own. From that distance Tsunade was able to swing the sword down fast enough to the point where Madara couldn't activate ribcage totally in time before it connected. Ay from further away and in the air, so basically a free falling Ay, couldn't reach Madara before Ribcage was activated.

If that is your speed feat then as usual your arguments are pathetic.

Ay never stopped his shunshin. He was continually running until after he punched Madara. Which means that Oonoki timed up his attack with Ay's shunshin. A shunshin that was hyped to be faster than Ay's quickest speed. Period.

No, he wasn't.

-Ay hits Mu.
-Ay shunshins.
-Ay is behind Madara.
-Ay is shown to be stopped.
-Ay punches him.

What the hell? Show me, Oonoki using two separate jutsus. Please. Oh that's right, he didn't. He used only one weightening jutsu as Ay shunshin. All else is fan fic.

Maybe if Oonoki hadn't started the jutsu before Ay was behind Madara you'd have a point.

Let's go over this again since your puny brain can't comprehend.

-When Onoki uses the lightweight jutsu Ay's hits are light but his speed is increased.
-When Onoki uses the weighted boulder jutsu Ay's hits are heavy but his speed is decreased.

-He Shunshin'd at Mu meaning he was moving at high speeds. No Weighted Boulder.
-He hit Mu, that is when the first Weighted Boulder was used.
-Then he Shunshin'd at Madara. Again, you can't move at high speeds when your body has been weighted.
-Then he hit Madara. Second weighted boulder jutsu as his strike was heavy.

Unless you are trying to argue something as dumb as "Onoki used Weighted Boulder when he hit Mu, then Ay was able to dash at Madara at a speed surpassing his own top speed despite being weighted". :lol Oh wait, that is exactly what you are arguing. :lol

Because my larger point is that a kage isn't getting completely blindsided by Ay. Kage level does mean something as indicated by the fodders (Dodai and others) who went after Mu and felt that the power of the gokage was on a completely different level.

You must be registered for see images

So the power of the Gokage and Kage in general being above that of the ordinary shinobi means you can claim shit as dumb as "every kage reacts to speed cuz lol KAGE RANK"? Get real buddy. Get real. "Kage rank means I can take Onoki's feats and give them to Tsunade after exaggerating them to fit my claim".

Yet he managed to look at everyone he needed to in the scans I posted. Was looking at his target. Gaara's sand haults his blade. He looks at the sand. Then into the eyes of a shinobi before he could strike. My point being there is no reason why Madara would be blind sided even looking at someone else even if he was looking at Ay.

Let's go over this again. Together. Slowly.

-He didn't look at the sand. Try again.
-Looking at the shinobi when he was about to attack is irrelevant.

All of that is in Madara's peripheral. If Madara is looking behind him tell us how he's supposed to visually perceive Tsunade hitting him from the front? :lol What stupid point are you even getting at here? That Tsunade moves faster than Madara can perceive? Wouldn't be surprised at this point tbh.

Last thing we see of Ay is his hand on Susanoo. The next pov we have he is still directly behind Susanoo. No movement lines on Susanoo to suggest it was in motion. So how do you make this claim exactly? Oh you pulled it out of your ass? Cool. You now have the definitive misfortune of me being both sober and fully awake now instead of me being stoned at 4am posting.

Ha, you sound just as stupid as you always sound regardless of you being sober or not. "Misfortune" he says. Imagine being this delusional. Susanoo not being in motion doesn't change the fact that Ay's attack was completed. Tsunade being able to hit Susanoo before Ay can fall and before the force from Ay's hit can push it doesn't equate to Tsunade reacting to Ay's speed. I'm gonna have to ask you to start providing real feats and not this garbage you call an argument.

Why are you so dumb. We have a point of reference for Ay. That point of reference is a starting distance as starting distance doesn't necessarily mean the distance at which he started moving but the distance at which we can start measuring. Tsunade is demonstrably further than that distance. Yet she gets there before Susanoo moves away from Ay, while Ay is still following through on his strike.

Meaning she crossed a distance further than what Ay crossed from the point of reference before Susanoo could move away from Ay's punch, meaning that she outsped gravity's effect on Ay's body and she outsped the speed of which Susanoo would move away based on how hard Ay hit it.

WHERE IS THE FEAT THAT LETS HER REACT TO V2 AY? Oh yes. It's nowhere. You are reaching and grasping at straws and it's pretty clear that you are. I guess you expected me to give up because of your walls of text. :lol That's all you have going for you at this point. Since you know you don't make sense you try to crush the other poster's resolve by typing wall after wall after wall.

Except we have a frame of reference for both of their positions and Ay is closer. Tsunade is further than where we saw Ay therefore we can use the minimum possible distance traveled as a point of reference. Though a more accurate way to assess this would be to take into account the angle at which Tsunade struck in the final panel and create an arc resulting with that direction to figure out where Tsunade came from. In either case its further than the point of reference we have for Ay. So please, shut up.

All you do is herp de derp He was flying herp de derp. I have no scans to suggest this. But it must be so because herp de derp. I know I saw Ay continuously moving while Oonoki used a single jutsu timed with Ay's movement but herp de derp Oonoki used two jutsus and Ay was stationary herp de derp.

Addressed. Of course that's what logical posts look like to a fanboy. You don't have the brain capacity to comprehend anything that isn't along the lines of "Tsunade is so great and I love her".

I'm not even going down this stupid ass rabbit hole. Because she has always seen Ay in the cannon. The only thing she ever noted to be unable to see was in fact faster than Ay. Shut the hell up with your stupid denials.

No, she really hasn't. You have no actual scans to support this you just have the typical bullshit argument you moronic fanboys love to bring when backed against a corner. That's why instead of addressing the argument you pull nonsense out of your ass. Show me a scan of Tsunade seeing Ay's top speed or being able to react to it well enough to help the assertion that she beats him in combat or don't address this point again.

"boo hoo shut the hell up with your manga facts that end my wank fantasies of my favorite character"

:lol Cry some more why don't you.

Tsunade's light speed reaction shits on anything in Hebi Sasuke's arsenal. Next.

Ay blitzes Tsunade with no reaction. Next.

Arguments build. Take the first part, make it invalid. A valid conclusion is made based off of valid propositions. This is basic logic. Back when I took Formal Logic in college this was so simple that we spent less explaining it than I just did here. My point is that none of Tsunade's entry had been updated at all. Fool. I'm well aware Tsunade hadn't improved between Pein and War. However she had the same exact stats as part 1. And how does her War arc performance compare to part 1? They blow them out of the water in every single way. Meaning that she necessarily improved between Part 1 and the War arc. Since it couldn't have happened when she was in a coma when did it happen? Obviously during the gap. Well why didn't the numbers reflect a change? Obviously because her entry hadn't been updated hence why a jutsu she used during the pein invasion arc didn't show up in a databook until the 4th databook.

Your point is trash. It not being updated is irrelevant because Tsunade did not get any stronger from the Pain Arc to the War Arc. And what the are you talking about you clown? Tsunade has no databook scores for Part 1. She only has scores in the 3rd Databook, which is right before the pain arc. Tsunade's speed in the War Arc is reflected by those stats. Fact. End of story. She is a whole point below a Sasuke w/ no enhancements. Fact. End of story. Sharingan puts him far above her. Fact. End of story. Sasuke couldn't perceive Ay so Tsunade doesn't either. End. Of. Story. The only way you can even begin to argue something as stupid as Tsunade>MS Sasuke in speed is if you show me evidence that Byakugo boosts her speed so much more than the Sharingan does for Sasuke that she not only closes the gap, but completely surpasses Sasuke.

"she had the same stats as part 1

You must be registered for see images

"

You must be registered for see images

You sure you still aren't on the drink? Cause you only sound dumber than you did before.

She led the charge pressuring a ninja >>>>> than Hebi Sasuke literally all you need to know to be aware that her speed increased dramatically. She also intercepted Madara's fireballs faster than Mei could weave handseals. What kind of horse shit are you going on about now, suggesting Tsunade's War arc Speed isn't tiers above part 1. GTFOH

Based on nothing. Show me that her speed is the reason her and 4 other Kage leveled shinobi or don't ever post stupid shit like this agan in your life. K? "She intercepted fireballs faster than a fatigured Mei could weave hand seals". Oh yeah! Amazing feat! Try again my guy. Try again.

Simple comparison between part 1 and War arc

Part 1 is irrelevant as explained above.

No, speed is what your talking about. I'm talking about her ability to react which is based on more than just speed. It's based on pattern recognition. It's based on what target areas are left open. Lanes of attack. Efficient ways to counter attack immediately. Etc.

Look. You can argue this nonsense all you want. If you aren't going to bring quantifiable feats that actually support the assertion that Tsunade will react better than someone far faster than her because of experience then don't bother replying to this point.

Not really. You've been saying some stupid stuff I've just been too high and sleepy to really call you out.

No, the one who's been saying stupid stuff is you and the rest of the Tsunde wank brigade, which is just RedRobin. :lol

Perhaps, a distance isn't the same as up close but it puts her movement speed in reacting tier.

Sure. It puts her movement speed in reacting tier in respect to Ay's strike. Not Ay's top speed.

You addressed jack shit, you've just been dancing around in a circle proving nothing. She struck as Ay was striking regardless of distance. As if we are talking about striking speed, striking while Ay his still their following through on his attack is enough to declare she gets in a counter attack. Stop being dumb. You're embarrassing yourself.

The only one embarrassing himself would be you, but given your track record can we be surprised who sounds stupid here? :lol.

Addressed.

-Ay hits Susanoo.
-Then Tsunade hits Susanoo.

Where is the speed feat that proves she reacts to Ay's top speed? I've been waiting long enough.

. So to cut the mountain does the blade need to pierce the outer layer?

This has already been addressed. Quote me when you are done arguing semantics.

Also How convenient that you cherry picked websters definition but don't worry I got you bro.

Oh what's that the definition you quoted in part actually proves my point when it's not cherry picked. Oh well isn't that the perfect analogy for this entire debate.

He pierced his skin idiot.
Dictionary disagrees

Oh yes squares are variants of quadrilaterals and polygons so they have different properties than polygons. Oh. Wait.

Already addressed this w/ the Ay scan. Don't quote me again unless you are going to admit you're wrong considering your only real line of defense at this point is cherry picking the definitions that fit for your own argument and saying "VIZ is wrong".

-Cutting is what Madara does to Susanoo's blades.
-Piercing is Raikiri.
-Raikage never stated that using Raiton to pierce is only Ay's technique.

Nothing more to say here sonny boy. Bringing irrelevant definitions of the techniques while ignoring the ones that fit within the context of every piercing type jutsu shown in the Manga does nothing but make you look like an idiot. A tremendous one at that.

Well in order to do any of those things Orochimaru's neck would have to be strong enough to support the force of an adult man and his head wouldn't it?

In it's expanded form, sure. But this is a useless point so I'm not going to bother addressing it.

Well that's because you loss track of the argument. Height of battle Are you stupid? The magatama did nothing. The hole is obviously from the sword. Also nothing indicates that if Ay hit a body into a wall it would leave more damage than Tsunade's body did. Hitting the wall itself is a different transference of force. Sasuke =/= Madara. Madara also blocked Tsunade's kick which he directly stated was stronger than Ay's anything. Shut up.

As usual you sound stupid. Now let's go over this together.

-"sasuke=/=Madara" is irrelevant. Madara is not more durable than Sasuke's Susanoo. Trash point from a trash poster.

-Madara blocking Tsunade's kick post teleportation simply means that Tsunade's kick didn't have as much force as the physical strikes that blew open his Susanoo. What's next fanboy? Madara is more durable than his Ribcage Susanoo? :lol Sounds like something you'd say. Lmao are you stupid or something? Madara blocked the punch w/ his arms but chose to block the chop with Susanoo. Doesn't take a genius to figure out which one is more dangerous.

Ay cut his body. Ay is far more durable than your goddess. Thus Ay easily cuts through Tsunade. Sorry buddy.

Literally posted a scan of Kabuto saying the heat of battle affected his blade length.

I didn't know that Kabuto was Ay and that Chakra Scalpel was Raiton Armor. :lol

Actually in the Madara battle her first instinct was to camp. When Naruto came after her did she run anywhere? No. So there is obviously more evidence Tsunade is willing to camp than an Ay who charged into Amaterasu when he could have waited it out

Her first instinct was to camp in a team battle where she was the medic. Not a solo battle. :lol Try again. Please try again. Watching you make yourself look stupid is amusing. And you are going to have to specify what you are talking about with the underlined. Tsunade in a solo battle has never done a thing that'd lead you to believe she'd be willing to camp in a circle

And of course you use the stupid example of a bloodlusted Ay who thought Sasuke had delivered his brother to his death. :lol Try again Tazilla.

Answer the question I actually asked

Your question was answered. Actually read that before you reply again. should help.

Except he wasn't using Susanoo when she cornered him.

And of course the point flew over your head. If she has the physical power to bust through Susanoo with any of her hits then she will do much better than someone who Madara can block and react to. Though It'd be nice if you stopped referencing this idiotic off panel feats to prove Tsunade can react to Ay's top speed.

This is why you shouldn't be taken seriously. All you do is type walls but what you are actually saying is beyond idiotic.
Wrong
-Gaara blocking a free falling Ay is the same as blocking a top speed Ay?
Levels of ability have been important throughout this manga thus the tiering system. And yes Bee did.

And both Tsunade and Oonoki attacked with him.

She can't react is the same as she won't be able to act at all. Idiot. Reactions are not conscious things. They are instinctive.

:lol I suggest you get back to whatever drugs you were taking before, cause you only sound even stupider now that you are "sober". Ay being able to blitz Tsunade when he uses Shunshin doesn't mean that she won't be able to do anything the entire battle unless you think Ay constantly moves at top speed.

I suggest you learn how to read kiddo before replying to me. It'll help a lot.

No, my son. That title is reserved for you

Look at the fanboys banding together. Such a precious moment. All 2 members of the Tsunade wank brigade.

Dizzldot · Nov 8, 2016

Kg and Tazz going in there like swimwear damn

KCN · Nov 8, 2016

You must be registered for see images

KidGamer65 · Nov 8, 2016

Shunshin. Always depicted as a blur, a flash, or a bolt of lightning or the character is depicted in a way that makes it look like they teleported (hence the name of the jutsu) with only the departure and arrival shown, nothing in between:

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see images

Notice the SFX for Ay's Shunshin here. "SFP" Not "SWISH" :lol.

And we have the fact that high speed movement is depicted as a blur as well.

Not Shunshin.

You must be registered for see images

Not to mention Shunshin doesn't make the "SWISH" SFX. Such an SFX would fit properly with flight.

Yup. But Ay definitely used a top speed Shunshin there.

You must be registered for see images

Dumbass.

RedRobin · Nov 8, 2016

KidGamer65 said:
Look at the fanboys banding together. Such a precious moment. All 2 members of the Tsunade wank brigade.

You must be registered for see images

KidGamer65 · Nov 8, 2016

"hurr tsunade outsped an ay who wasn't attacking in the first place"

Amazing feats guys!

RedRobin · Nov 8, 2016

KidGamer65 said:
Shunshin. Always depicted as a blur, a flash, or a bolt of lightning or the character is depicted in a way that makes it look like they teleported (hence the name of the jutsu) with only the departure and arrival shown, nothing in between:

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

Notice the SFX for Ay's Shunshin here. "SFP" Not "SWISH" :lol.

And we have the fact that high speed movement is depicted as a blur as well.

Not Shunshin.

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

Not to mention Shunshin doesn't make the "SWISH" SFX. Such an SFX would fit properly with flight.

Yup. But Ay definitely used a top speed Shunshin there.
You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

KidGamer65 said:
Dumbass.

KidGamer65 · Nov 8, 2016

RedRobin said:
You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

Does that scan show Ay's travel? No. It shows him move and then he vanishes from the sight of the readers and the character in question, just like every other Shunshin ever shown in this Manga.

RedRobin. Please do not reply to me if you are going to bring even lower quality posts then your buddy Tazilla.

RedRobin · Nov 8, 2016

KidGamer65 said:
Does that scan show Ay's travel? No. It shows him move and then he vanishes from the sight of the readers and the character in question, just like every other Shunshin ever shown in this Manga.

RedRobin. Please do not reply to me if you are going to bring even lower quality posts then your buddy Tazilla.

with only the departure and arrival shown, nothing in between:

Clearly wrong. As you see the after image which would be an in between.

not to mention Shunshin doesn't make the "SWISH" SFX. Such an SFX would fit properly with flight.

Clearly wrong again. "SWooo..."

Icelerate · Nov 8, 2016

Where is TheEvilOne to make this a trio?

KidGamer65 · Nov 8, 2016

RedRobin said:
with only the departure and arrival shown, nothing in between:

Clearly wrong. As you see the after image which would be an in between.

not to mention Shunshin doesn't make the "SWISH" SFX. Such an SFX would fit properly with flight.

Clearly wrong again. "SWooo..."

What you see in that scan is the departure you twit. :lol Do you even know what after images are? Ay moved so fast that he left an after image in his place after he moved. That's not "in between" him moving and arriving.

-Ay moves. Departure.
-Ay arrives at Sasuke. Arrival.

Where is the inbetween? I'll wait.

:lol And can you even read? No, I don't think so. Let's read this together. I said:

"Shunshin doesn't make the SWISH SFX"

Is what you posted something that shows otherwise? No. Is "SWooo" the same as "SWISH"? I'll let you answer this one on your own.

"Such an SFX would fit properly with flight"

Does the SWISH SFX fitting better with flight have anything to do with what you said here? No. It doesn't.

And this is the same guy who was begging to be in DoU, saying he's a "logical and unbiased debater". :lol Come on now son.

Tsunade Versus Gokage Analysis

Kage in the Making 👑

Sannin of the Scrolls 📜

Legendary Shinobi 🐸

Kage in the Making 👑

Sannin of the Scrolls 📜

Legendary Shinobi 🐸

Sage of Six Posts 🔮

Kage in the Making 👑

Anbu Operative 🎭

Legendary Shinobi 🐸

Anbu Operative 🎭

Jōnin Strategist 🧠

Legendary Shinobi 🐸

Kage in the Making 👑

Legendary Shinobi 🐸

Kage in the Making 👑

Legendary Shinobi 🐸

Kage in the Making 👑

Sannin of the Scrolls 📜

Legendary Shinobi 🐸