Does Kisame Wreck Classic Gokage? (Individually)
- Thread starter Silent Hero
- Start date
KidGamer65
Active member
Awards
Lmao that doesn't make any sense just like your previous example. Water slamming the Sand against his body wouldn't cause it to clump up like this.
You must be registered for see links
And if you want to talk about physical force, there's no reason any physical force would be applied to Madara's body to keep the sand from falling off of him when he himself wasn't moving from the water dragon as Preta absorbed it.
He was at first but notice how he didn't do anything to it once it touched Madara? The point of hiding it within the jutsu was to add a physical element that can't be absorbed (only the chakra within can) to trap Madara. No reason Gaara wouldn't have crushed Madara there if he could still have control over it.
Honestly another factor is that Preta can't absorb externally and internally at the same time. One requires a force of preta to absorb the other requires the user to pull in chakra from the source itself. Since Madara would have had to absorb the chakra out of the sand he couldn't do that while absorbing the pure chakra jutsu coming at him, purely conjecture though.
Last edited:
But I don't think I am though. Again, the war takes place in the land of lightning with mountains that reach as high as the clouds with the hokage on the tallest one. Land of lightning mountains =/= the mountain at the dome sight because as far as I can tell, those mountains do not look incredibly high.
- bigger than the pillars? based on what? Perhaps you mean height because the width of the pillars is obviously > trees. And if you did mean height, the scan showing just the base is not enough to convince that they're higher than stone formations.
I'll have really loved to see your opinion on the kid Gaara scan though. As we can see, that was random regular sand that sprung up to protect him and he manipulated it to crush his uncle.
Gaara obviously requires chakra to manipulate sand but his sand shield is different as:
- He needs chakra to manipulate it too
- But the sand shield is also infused with his chakra as stated by Deidara.
You're implying Gaara sent his chakra into the desert sand he carried up against Deidara and I disagree.
- Naruto uses shadow clones but the number produced depends on the quantity of chakra he uses. And as we know, his clones can't get absorbed..that's how Gaara's control with sand is.
- Expend less chakra and he brings up a smaller quantity..Expend more chakra and the quantity would be larger.
- During his speech, he suddenly forms sand between two quarrelling Shinobi..would you say his chakra was infused in that sand too?
Another example is his Armor of sand. The armor is said to be weaker defensively in comparison to the sand shield..The obvious reason is because that armor isn't infused with chakra but he simply expends chakra to keep it up.
But bro..They are examples on both sides (before and after) of the DB you posted. Just because they don't make sense doesn't mean we discredit them for one single DB page that one might probably be misunderstanding should we?
That DB page is interesting tbh and I understand how it can be confusing..but really think about it..It doesn't make sense. There was probably seconds or at the very most a minute between Gaara noticing that strange bird and confronting Deidara. Then seconds after the initial confrontation, Gaara does this
You must be registered for see images
The sand looks like it's coming from outside the village and what you're implying is Gaara has infused an entire desert of sand with his chakra..It really doesn't seem plausible tbh
I'm also looking at the DB page and it's seeming iffy:
- Speed
- Hardness
- Scale.
Speed and hardness can be improved by infusing chakra into the sand but what is that scale referring to? Volume? If it's volume then it makes absolutely no sense as infusing chakra into sand doesn't mean the sand magically increases in Volume if not Gaara would only need his gourd sand in battles and we know that's clearly not the case.
Last edited:
More sand you reach with chakra = scale. It doesn't take very long to manipulate chakra in such a manor, Sasuke was able to bring down Kirin from the sky in seconds. Also probably the more sand = harder it is to make the sand strong due to chakra problems., hence why he didn't catch Deidara until he infused it with more chakra and it started resembling shukaku.
Of course Sasuke was able to bring down Kirin in seconds. Lightning is already naturally fast and besides, Sasuke just guides it. And I don't understand the chakra reference because Kirin is pure lightning not chakra?
What chakra problems? He didn't catch Deidara with Sand prison though..He surprised
You must be registered for see links
and Deidara escaped because it didn't close fast enough. (
You must be registered for see links
)What caught Deidara was sand from sand shield to which Deidara gives us an explanation saying the sand in his gourd is faster because it's infused with chakra unlike the regular sand he brings up from the desert.
Again you're implying the desert sand he raised already had chakra infused in it which makes no sense as even the hyuga who can release chakra from their tenketsu have not being shown to expend chakra to cover such a distance. Gaara would logically need to be in contact with the sand to infuse his chakra in it but like I've said before, it only took seconds between noticing that strange bird and confronting Deidara to squash any hints of Gaara speeding to the desert, infusing chakra and speeding back to meet Deidara.
- Then we have the DB's description of Aerial sand bulwark saying "Not only does Gaara increase its defensive properties by infusing chakra into the sand" implying not all his sand constructs have chakra infused in them.
And we also have examples of Gaara manipulating obvious sand without chakra either side of the DB description you're bringing up and I ask again, do we simply disregard these other examples?
Last edited:
I meant the fact that Sasuke was able to have his chakra reach the lightning in seconds.
-Deidara stated Gaaras sand is filled with TONS OF OLD STORED UP CHAKRA which clearly means its stronger than the other sand because it has much more chakra within it.
No examples saying "Gaara does not use chakra to control this sand" has been stated in the DB :lol. Just like there are hundreds of other entries of ninjutsu that don't suggest the jutsu "needs chakra" because it simply doesn't feel it needs to. Sand prison's definition included the fact that when more chakra is applied it gets better in every way which should logically stay the same for every other jutsu.
What chakra? I thought it was made clear Sasuke didnt need his chakra and only used Chidori to act as a conduit to guide the lightning towards Sasuke in a similar way lightning rods work in real life with channelling lightning straight to the earth instead of through the buildings and damaging appliances?
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
- No that is not what it clearly means...It means Chakra infused sand is specially made while the desert sand is Ordinary/regular sand thus it's slower. Why would Deidara call the desert sand regular sand if it was chakra infused?
Again, in part 1 Gaara manipulated random sand to kill his uncle and in part 2, he manipulates sand in between two shinobi out of thin air. Are you telling me the sand in those scenarios were chakra infused despite Gaara not being in contact with it?
Pretty sure Sasuke had a thread of raiton chakra connecting his chidori to Kirin which then brought it down.
He calls it regular sand because regular sand just has a base amount of chakra in it while the strong sand has that much more :lol these feats you are giving me are irrelevant as he cant put chakra into the sand via his own sand or probably even chakra control.
What ration chakra? I thought Chidori was pure lightning so that thread is lightning is it not?
Has a base amount of chakra in it? That's just speculation on your part though. I'll bring it later if you need to see it but the aerial sand bulwark DB slot states the sand is infused with Gaara's chakra not the applied in sand prison's case which I believe you're misinterpreting.
Feats- Sand Prison..despite size couldn't close fast enough to catch Deidara
Sand Bulwark- Instant shielding of Suna from what seemed a point blank explosion. Surely we know which is faster?
The feats I'm giving aren't irrelevant though as they show Gaara clearly manipulating sand without having contact with them.
Lord Tywin
Active member
Tazzilla88
Active member
Oonoki: Oonoki takes this handily.
Ay: Ay gets beaten Samehada absorbs the raiton cloak and continually heals Ay. Though if Kisame uses Water Dome he may be able to fry Kisame. He should be fast enough to avoid the rest of Kisame's arsenal. But when he comes in to attack he's likely to get drained.
Danzo - Kisame wins again. Before his AoE attacks Danzo can put up a decent fight. However, if Kisame jumps straight to creating a lake Danzo has no real answer.
Tsunade: In 4 of 5 of the battles Kisame has fought he started his battles in close quarters. If Kisame comes in to fight Tsunade in close quarters, he won't be overwhelmingly dominated by her CQC because he is proficient himself. However Tsunade would probably find a way to hit him. Should he try to parry with Samehada like he did against both Gai and Bee Samehada going to be seriously injured from her natural strength, though she may try to disarm him like she did against Naruto. Kind of how Gai disarmed him.
Now, if Kisame doesn't engage in CQC immediately Kisame will create either a Lake or a Water Dome. She has two possible counters to water dome. Both of them require Katsuyu. If she summons katsuyu and hides inside of her, Katsuyu can divide herself into a thousand pieces all moving in separate directions. WD follows Kisame and if he can't distinguish which clone holds Tsunade she'll be able to escape. That isn't my favorite plan though. Alternatively, If she uses Summoning Jutsu then byakugou no jutsu. From there she need only wait in Katsuyu. Katsuyu will spit acid into the water similar to the way that Bee spit ink into the water. Now the water will undergo exothermic hydration. No longer having water but an acidic pool. Kisame's gills will begin to burn as it tries to filter the acidic water. He will have to cancel the jutsu or risk dying from exposure to the acid.
The lake though is actually the harder jutsu to counter. Can she use Katsuyu to acidify the water, sure but that only helps if Kisame is in the water. If he creates a lake, they both start on top of it and they most likely engage in CQC. Kisame could not take a full fledged hit from her. He may be more durable than most people, and stronger than most people. However, his strength is not even in her class. He overpowered Gai, that won't be happening with Tsunade. If she lands a hit on him without being forced underwater he's dead and the lake disappears. Let's say he uses some of his jutsus to nail her while she's above water. Given the way she batted away Madara's Katon's she should be swift enough to avoid most of them, and swat away what she can't dodge. Should she be forced underwater. He'd likely use the five feeding sharks jutsu. Her byakugou punch should send shockwaves more than powerful enough to take out the five shark feeding frenzy. The real challenge is handling the Thousand Feeding Sharks. So the way to defeating it may come through Katsuyu's acid. Acid being introduced into water creates heat. If the water becomes so heated that it boils the sharks would boil and lose their form. There are several factors to consider. First, ph works on a system of 10. So water has the ph of 7, the ph of 6 is 10 times more acidic than the ph of 7 and an acid with the ph of 5 is hundred times stronger than water. Katsuyu's acid is easily thousands of times more corrosive than any acid we know of including superacids. It is significantly more acidic than Mei's acid. Thus, the question is how much acid would be required to make the water boil. And if Katsuyu will push that much acid into the water. That makes that argument pretty speculative.
I don't actually know how this plays out. If CQC is a thing, Tsunade wins. Between her strength, and Ranshinsho CQC is an absolute loss for Kisame. WD is a loss for Kisame. His only real chance at victory is A Thousand Feeding Sharks. Given his propensity for CQC I'm tempted to lean toward Tsunade winning. But also, somewhat biased. It'd be fun to see this debated out.
Gaara - Gaara etches out a win here as he effectively counters Kisame's arsenal whilst having more tactical options.
Mei - This is actually the toughest call because creating a water source benefits both of these guys. However I'll still give Kisame the win due to her weak taijutsu showing and his Great Shark Bullet
Ay: Ay gets beaten Samehada absorbs the raiton cloak and continually heals Ay. Though if Kisame uses Water Dome he may be able to fry Kisame. He should be fast enough to avoid the rest of Kisame's arsenal. But when he comes in to attack he's likely to get drained.
Danzo - Kisame wins again. Before his AoE attacks Danzo can put up a decent fight. However, if Kisame jumps straight to creating a lake Danzo has no real answer.
Tsunade: In 4 of 5 of the battles Kisame has fought he started his battles in close quarters. If Kisame comes in to fight Tsunade in close quarters, he won't be overwhelmingly dominated by her CQC because he is proficient himself. However Tsunade would probably find a way to hit him. Should he try to parry with Samehada like he did against both Gai and Bee Samehada going to be seriously injured from her natural strength, though she may try to disarm him like she did against Naruto. Kind of how Gai disarmed him.
Now, if Kisame doesn't engage in CQC immediately Kisame will create either a Lake or a Water Dome. She has two possible counters to water dome. Both of them require Katsuyu. If she summons katsuyu and hides inside of her, Katsuyu can divide herself into a thousand pieces all moving in separate directions. WD follows Kisame and if he can't distinguish which clone holds Tsunade she'll be able to escape. That isn't my favorite plan though. Alternatively, If she uses Summoning Jutsu then byakugou no jutsu. From there she need only wait in Katsuyu. Katsuyu will spit acid into the water similar to the way that Bee spit ink into the water. Now the water will undergo exothermic hydration. No longer having water but an acidic pool. Kisame's gills will begin to burn as it tries to filter the acidic water. He will have to cancel the jutsu or risk dying from exposure to the acid.
The lake though is actually the harder jutsu to counter. Can she use Katsuyu to acidify the water, sure but that only helps if Kisame is in the water. If he creates a lake, they both start on top of it and they most likely engage in CQC. Kisame could not take a full fledged hit from her. He may be more durable than most people, and stronger than most people. However, his strength is not even in her class. He overpowered Gai, that won't be happening with Tsunade. If she lands a hit on him without being forced underwater he's dead and the lake disappears. Let's say he uses some of his jutsus to nail her while she's above water. Given the way she batted away Madara's Katon's she should be swift enough to avoid most of them, and swat away what she can't dodge. Should she be forced underwater. He'd likely use the five feeding sharks jutsu. Her byakugou punch should send shockwaves more than powerful enough to take out the five shark feeding frenzy. The real challenge is handling the Thousand Feeding Sharks. So the way to defeating it may come through Katsuyu's acid. Acid being introduced into water creates heat. If the water becomes so heated that it boils the sharks would boil and lose their form. There are several factors to consider. First, ph works on a system of 10. So water has the ph of 7, the ph of 6 is 10 times more acidic than the ph of 7 and an acid with the ph of 5 is hundred times stronger than water. Katsuyu's acid is easily thousands of times more corrosive than any acid we know of including superacids. It is significantly more acidic than Mei's acid. Thus, the question is how much acid would be required to make the water boil. And if Katsuyu will push that much acid into the water. That makes that argument pretty speculative.
I don't actually know how this plays out. If CQC is a thing, Tsunade wins. Between her strength, and Ranshinsho CQC is an absolute loss for Kisame. WD is a loss for Kisame. His only real chance at victory is A Thousand Feeding Sharks. Given his propensity for CQC I'm tempted to lean toward Tsunade winning. But also, somewhat biased. It'd be fun to see this debated out.
Gaara - Gaara etches out a win here as he effectively counters Kisame's arsenal whilst having more tactical options.
Mei - This is actually the toughest call because creating a water source benefits both of these guys. However I'll still give Kisame the win due to her weak taijutsu showing and his Great Shark Bullet