Why is Everyone Surprised about the Anime being Canon??

Holy God

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I've written an entire dissertation on this subject aha so i'll try not to get too into it in case of boring you or spamming the forum but I love talking about this subject. We certainly shouldn't get into the territory of what a 'author' actually is as a societal figure or how much of their works are cultural artifacts (bc its like, 1am here haha)
but i'd say the rather obvious difference is that Kishimoto doesn't know of your fan-fiction or slap his name on the cover above yours.

Anime with split-diversion filler arcs I agree cannot be included because that's an instance where the contradiction cannot be overlooked. Soul Eater, FMA, Blue Exorcist, AKG- yeah, fair enough. Naruto never does this. Interestingly as a good example, Ninja Storm 3 does, it has a straightup different ending to the Ninja War. That is an example of divergent filler, Shippuden? Doesn't apply. I will admit it damages pacing and tension but that shouldn't make it all redundant, it's just a gripe. The only fair one in my eyes.

The problem is though that how can something that is neither confirmed nor written by Kishimoto be part of his story? The only reason why Kishimoto has any sort of influence over the anime is because they need his approval in order to copy his designs and story line. Besides that, there is literally no difference between it and fan-fiction. He can't really do anything if Studio Pierrot decided to take another route with Naruto.
 

InfiniteMugen

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Haven't read thread just the gist. Anything that happens in the manga is canon, as usually mangas come first(looking at you dbs) anything in the anime that follows the manga is also canon, anything that is used in the anime to fill time between major arcs or plot points is filler( whether this is flashbacks, new content altogether or whatever) the ashura Indra stuff in the anime now would be filler technically simply because it's not in the manga. Whether you take filler as some deragatory term for something is up to you. It's most popular here because people like to use manga facts. Fillers are inherently void of this
 

Bad Touch Yakushi

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The problem is though that how can something that is neither confirmed nor written by Kishimoto be part of his story? The only reason why Kishimoto has any sort of influence over the anime is because they need his approval in order to copy his designs and story line. Besides that, there is literally no difference between it and fan-fiction. He can't really do anything if Studio Pierrot decided to take another route with Naruto.

What? You're telling me that Kishi had no confirmation or acknowledgement of the novels at all? Writers don't have their names plastered over products without knowing anything about it.

Regardless. Fan-fiction is great and in a way, still part of the Naruto community and world. Just not part of the official product, which is what Kishimoto and his team have given consent and involvement in.

The novels, movie and anime are official world-wide releases. Known by Kishimoto with his name, team, involvement and most importantly CONSENT attached.
 
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DeadManWonderLand

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Why is everyone surprised about the stuff that Hayate wrote about Kishi involvement with Kaguya, Indra/Ashura stuff when the Anime in their own form of originality has always been canon in their own right ??

The so called "Filler" was brought by fanfic western troll making up in the dictionary when in Japan there is no such concept it was never been publicize from any studios nor by the words coming from the author mouth.

SP is gonna make Naruto Great Again!

It is not cannon

"has always been canon in their own righ"

Cannon has one definition.You can't just going around and say hey i like this bit from the anime i am here by declaring it cannon ....it doesn't work that way.
 

DeadManWonderLand

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Filler doesn't actually exist.

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Kishimoto doesn't care and he doesn't see it that way. People who care about canon and non-canon religiously are the kind who treat it as a sport or a religion rather than entertainment. It's a fan-created restriction and the fact people actively make the show redundant and ruin the fun for themselves is a little sad.

+

Kishimoto was never the single sole author of Naruto. Never ever, editors, influences and fan favourites mean that the auteur is NOT god and his works are not like, ancient biblical law.

Kishi is the sole author ,ugh do people just make shit up all the time now ?

This specific scenario kishi went on record saying he liked raiga alot so he included him in the manga (Cannon) as one of the swordsmen.His background in the cannon material is unknown.It doesn't suddenly make the filler episodes cannon.

This is why he specifically went out of his way to mention raiga,because raiga is now cannon.
He never said anything about the episodes depiction of him being what happened in the manga.
The fact he has to point out what is clearly filler as not manga cannon,well,this where a face palm would come in handy.

Damn narutobase can get pretty retarded when it wants to.


It is this simple

If it is filler it is not cannon Unless kishi goes on record saying he is adding it to the official source.
 

Exaar

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If you like your stories full of plot holes, Messed up time lines and shit not really making sense, By all means count the "anime fillers" and movies as cannon.
 

Monkey D Uchiha

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If you like your stories full of plot holes, Messed up time lines and shit not really making sense, By all means count the "anime fillers" and movies as cannon.

The manga are full of ploteholes and inconsisticies as well, so you're not making much sense.
 

Monkey D Uchiha

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Haven't read thread just the gist. Anything that happens in the manga is canon, as usually mangas come first(looking at you dbs) anything in the anime that follows the manga is also canon, anything that is used in the anime to fill time between major arcs or plot points is filler( whether this is flashbacks, new content altogether or whatever) the ashura Indra stuff in the anime now would be filler technically simply because it's not in the manga. Whether you take filler as some deragatory term for something is up to you. It's most popular here because people like to use manga facts. Fillers are inherently void of this

I'm pretty sure the term "canon" is never used by Kishi, or SP, or whoever writes the books - there are other franchises that actually establish canon in their own piece of media, so it's not really the case with Naruto, where it's decided by the fandom. If you consider "canon" to be strictly manga, then sure, everything else isn't.
Authors care less about such things. Even Kishi's own manga and databooks have inconsistencies, which we can argue about for ages, when in reality, it was just him not planning ahead (he talks about that in that latest lengthy interview), caring more about telling the exciting story etc. than paying attention to little detail.
 
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InfiniteMugen

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I'm pretty sure the term "canon" is never used by Kishi, or SP, or whoever writes the books - there are other franchises that actually establish canon in their own piece of media, but it's not the case with Naruto, where it's decided by the fandom. If you consider "canon" to be strictly manga, then sure, everything else isn't.
Authors care less about such things. Even Kishi's own manga and databooks have inconsistencies, which we can argue about for ages, when in reality, it was just him not planning ahead (he talks about that in that latest lengthy interview), caring more about telling the exciting story etc. than paying attention to little detail.

From what I've heard there is no canon and filler where they're from to begin with, it's a westernized term i think that just came up here, besides that it just helps say what was in the original manga and what's added(filled) in in the anime and or any rehashes of the anime thereafter imo
 

Holy God

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What? You're telling me that Kishi had no confirmation or acknowledgement of the novels at all? Writers don't have their names plastered over products without knowing anything about it.

Regardless. Fan-fiction is great and in a way, still part of the Naruto community and world. Just not part of the official product, which is what Kishimoto and his team have given consent and involvement in.

The novels, movie and anime are official world-wide releases. Known by Kishimoto with his name, team, involvement and most importantly CONSENT attached.

I was talking about the anime, not the novels. Those and selected movies are confirmed by Kishimoto himself to be apart of the story. Nothing about the anime is and its fame doesn't make it so. Kishimoto does not decide what is aired and his involvement cannot be confirmed since he has no actual position in Studio Pierrot or the making of the anime. Consent to the usage of his designs and plot does not equate to the confirmation of any or all of it being true to what he'd desire or the story.
 

Floydical

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Filler doesn't actually exist.

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Kishimoto doesn't care and he doesn't see it that way. People who care about canon and non-canon religiously are the kind who treat it as a sport or a religion rather than entertainment. It's a fan-created restriction and the fact people actively make the show redundant and ruin the fun for themselves is a little sad.

+

Kishimoto was never the single sole author of Naruto. Never ever, editors, influences and fan favourites mean that the auteur is NOT god and his works are not like, ancient biblical law.

Nice try, but Raiga is STILL NOT CANON. How can I prove it? Raiga in the anime died in part 1 after the filler arc. In the manga, he is never shown to be alive and is rather shown as a previous sword wielder.

What this means is that the Raiga in the manga died before part one ever began and therefore he is not the same Raiga from the anime. He is still filler, Kishi simply decided to incorporate his design into a previous swordsman. We don't even know the characters manga name as Kishi never gave it.
 

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Wait a minute , it was only revealed that these latest kaguya indra ashura arcs are canon , all other naruto shippuden fillers are filler.
 

InfiniteMugen

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Wait a minute , it was only revealed that these latest kaguya indra ashura arcs are canon , all other naruto shippuden fillers are filler.

Logic just goes way over your heard when you think your right about something doesn't it :sdo:
 

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An editor came up with the idea for Sasuke. Kishi was going to make Hiruzen a dog...did you read the pilot manga?

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The entire main conflict of the series was thought up by somebody else and ripped off Hunter x Hunter and DBZ among others. He's the main one sure- but crediting only his hand as the source of biblical auteur ownership is ridiculous, because he was never the sole author.



I can name a few, i'd even go as far to say that there's almost as many plotholes and contradictions as non-canon. Multiple ages have sparked controversy, Academy graduation dates, Minato's face on the Hokage Monument in the wrong eras, genjutsu working on a perfect jin, the iffy retcons caused by the Itachi is good plottwist, Oro remarking Kakashi's sharingan was 'new' etc

The entire timeline is arguably f*cked and Jiraiya/Minato/Nagato's events had to be readjusted after the retconned Obito twist.

All additional stories do is add to the world, never take away.

thanks for the sensible adult discussion btw, been a while since I had that on this site

minato's hokagemonument in Obito's flashback was fixed in the volume like Sasuke having MS when he met the edo hokages.
Yagura could control his bijuu but he must have not been friendly with it. I believe DB4 thinks Perfect Jins are Jins that can completely control the bijuu.

I think people consider anime filler non canon because it is much easier. Trying to fit all the fillers would be hard and a lot of them contradict or should have effected characters more. Yes the manga contradicts itself but not as much as filler does imo. Did you see the latest episode with Indra having Sasuke's MS, kage bushin being used before it was invented, Ashura using SS, etc.
That's just my opinion.
 

Floydical

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The one thing you should never do is presume; filler is not a made-up Western concept. Filler is a fan-made synonym for "anime adaptation original content". It denotes material not authorized by the creator (and Kishi does care). It's important to make the distinction because it doesn't originate from the author's hand, and he doesn't get a say and so, it has no place in the storyline and more than this, often contradicts canon material.

Kishimoto expressed his discontent with the implementation of kunai guns used in the 1st Movie. Furthermore, that very same movie featured cars, film and the like... stuff that contradicts Kishi's ideas. And using the picture of Raiga doesn't amount to much, since anime features implemented into the manga is totally different from anime created material, since the author chose to add him in.

Don't worry in the slightest about Raiga. As I stated above, this character is not the same Raiga from the Anime. The picture of the manga 'Raiga' was of a 2 generation old swordsman. This means he predated the last wielder of the lightning blades.... who obviously died before the series began. This means the manga 'Raiga' died even before that, proving his filler arc is just that; filler. We can't even confirm his name is Raiga as Kishi never gave it.


An editor came up with the idea for Sasuke. Kishi was going to make Hiruzen a dog...did you read the pilot manga?

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The entire main conflict of the series was thought up by somebody else and ripped off Hunter x Hunter and DBZ among others. He's the main one sure- but crediting only his hand as the source of biblical auteur ownership is ridiculous, because he was never the sole author.



I can name a few, i'd even go as far to say that there's almost as many plotholes and contradictions as non-canon. Multiple ages have sparked controversy, Academy graduation dates, Minato's face on the Hokage Monument in the wrong eras, genjutsu working on a perfect jin, the iffy retcons caused by the Itachi is good plottwist, Oro remarking Kakashi's sharingan was 'new' etc

The entire timeline is arguably f*cked and Jiraiya/Minato/Nagato's events had to be readjusted after the retconned Obito twist.

All additional stories do is add to the world, never take away.

thanks for the sensible adult discussion btw, been a while since I had that on this site

Keep in mind, old databook information is not necessarily canon as it was created so long ago that its wording should not be taken as literal. Obviously things like the description of Itachi's Susanoo shouldn't be taken literally because his defense isn't truly impenetrable. Things like academy graduation ages were used for a sole purpose, to prove strength.

Before Kishi could describe the skill level of a Shinobi, he used graduation ages to explain it. This was obviously a dated and imperfect concept for obvious reasons. He told us Kakashi graduated younger than Obito in order to show us he was stronger than Obito. Later on, he adopted the 3 person team ideal and changed this fact to better match his story. In short, there is no discrepancy in academy ages and graduation, its a very straightforward concept that they were all the same age and graduated at the same time and hence how they ended up on the same team. It was made more clear once Kishi's ideas were better developed, which indeed involved editor influence.

Yagura was never confirmed to be on good terms with the Sanbi and Madara was the original manipulator of him, so its not impossible to see this as fitting into the story. I'd argue that Minato's face on the monument in the wrong era was a part of a greater attempt at deception by Kishi, but most likely it was just a significant mistake on Kishi's part. That is not a plothole, just a blunder.
 

Kirin The Dragon Sage

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it did not surprise me at all im following both manga and anime and always wait for animated version out. Because of anime is finalization version of what manga done with now almost 2 year manga over so Anime is the most updated reliable sources. Any adjustment or plot hole or inconsistency i will refer to Anime.

Most japanese do the same, just like you buying I-phone do you like iphone5 or iphone6? if iphone 7 came out will you choose iphone5 or 7? :sdo:
 

Ansatsuken

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it did not surprise me at all im following both manga and anime and always wait for animated version out. Because of anime is finalization version of what manga done with now almost 2 year manga over so Anime is the most updated reliable sources. Any adjustment or plot hole or inconsistency i will refer to Anime.

Most japanese do the same, just like you buying I-phone do you like iphone5 or iphone6? if iphone 7 came out will you choose iphone5 or 7? :sdo:

What kind of comparison is that?

Buying Iphone 7 wouldnt explained any lack in functions/feature of Iphone 1. :lol

Iphone 1 and Iphone 7 aren't two phones inside different space, it just an upgrade/continuity.

And if I looking for outdated Iphone 2, it wouldnt be a problem as its just a matter of preference.
 
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Monkey D Uchiha

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Don't worry in the slightest about Raiga. As I stated above, this character is not the same Raiga from the Anime. The picture of the manga 'Raiga' was of a 2 generation old swordsman. This means he predated the last wielder of the lightning blades.... who obviously died before the series began. This means the manga 'Raiga' died even before that, proving his filler arc is just that; filler. We can't even confirm his name is Raiga as Kishi never gave it.

Sorry but we're gonna call him Raigai Kurosaki officially from the anime until Kishi change his mind.
 

Bad Touch Yakushi

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Don't worry in the slightest about Raiga. As I stated above, this character is not the same Raiga from the Anime. The picture of the manga 'Raiga' was of a 2 generation old swordsman. This means he predated the last wielder of the lightning blades.... who obviously died before the series began. This means the manga 'Raiga' died even before that, proving his filler arc is just that; filler. We can't even confirm his name is Raiga as Kishi never gave it.



Keep in mind, old databook information is not necessarily canon as it was created so long ago that its wording should not be taken as literal. Obviously things like the description of Itachi's Susanoo shouldn't be taken literally because his defense isn't truly impenetrable. Things like academy graduation ages were used for a sole purpose, to prove strength.

Before Kishi could describe the skill level of a Shinobi, he used graduation ages to explain it. This was obviously a dated and imperfect concept for obvious reasons. He told us Kakashi graduated younger than Obito in order to show us he was stronger than Obito. Later on, he adopted the 3 person team ideal and changed this fact to better match his story. In short, there is no discrepancy in academy ages and graduation, its a very straightforward concept that they were all the same age and graduated at the same time and hence how they ended up on the same team. It was made more clear once Kishi's ideas were better developed, which indeed involved editor influence.

Yagura was never confirmed to be on good terms with the Sanbi and Madara was the original manipulator of him, so its not impossible to see this as fitting into the story. I'd argue that Minato's face on the monument in the wrong era was a part of a greater attempt at deception by Kishi, but most likely it was just a significant mistake on Kishi's part. That is not a plothole, just a blunder.

I can definitely agree with all of this. Academy ages are obviously flawed way of measurement considering Kakashi, Rin and Obito likely only got pushed along to their advanced ranks due to war times and conditions. Sadly not everybody is as sensible when it comes to treating the databook as a product of its time. Obviously the Totsuka Blade and Yata Mirror were the most godly thing at that point in the series and so the book is just dramatic hyperbole to incite excitement in fans for the Shippuden midpoint. I only called them plotholes since so many people consider them literal and the book part of the series' mythos.

Weird issues like Naruto's graduation date can still be confusing thoguh.
 
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