Sure, but that only speaks volumes of his talent and skill in comparison to Sasuke as a Kid. Even someone less talented can surpass someone who's more talented with proper training and higher potential.
I agree but ntn suggest Sasuke would have a higher potential than Madara when they both have the same exact potential as indra basically , wat sets them apart is the individual talent , skill , jutsu , knowledge , chakra amount and physical stats they bring to the table and madara edges him over on most stats apart from maybe analytical prowes.
Madara would also likely have had much superior training since he was bein trained by the clan and was constantly building conditioning and stats by constanly fighting and seeing new and more powerful jutsus used by the other factions over the years and his arsenal as a kid was already enough to kill mid/high jonin level ninja on numerous occasions while kid sasuke at best would need CM2 and 3t in order to test even mid jonin ninja who would still beat him , like Genma and Raido etc...
Experienced Uchiha from Sasuke's Gen were portrayed as stronger than the average Jonin like Genma/Raido , while the Uchiha from Madara's Time who were on par with the Adult Senjus Kid Madara killed , were portrayed as much stronger than the average 3T Uchiha of Sasukes Gen.
I hope u can see how this all correlates.
I disagree with Sasuke's enhancement pills being the reason for his growth. Kakashi deliberately sealed away the Cursed Seal's powers preventing any of it from influencing his body and yet, he progressed immensely according to Gai who was baffled as to how he reached Lee's level of speed in just a month. Even Naruto was impressed.
This doesn't correlate at all because he didn't take the pill yet and his growth with kakshi was simply a testament to the Uchiha clans prowess as a whole..
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A prowes that was much higher for the Uchiha of madara's time yet kid madara before sharingan killed multiple ninja on par with experienced 3T Adult Uchiha which makes Sasuke's growth with Kakashi ntn special.
Kid Madara was already noted as being stronger than most experienced adult uchiha in his clan before he awakened sharingan and his feats of killing adult senju's were attributed to his
Talent, putting his way above Sasukes similar to the way itachi was more talented than him at similar ages.
The pills did cause Sasuke's chakras to grow stronger at VoTE, but it wasn't a substantial difference at all. It certainly put him a good chunk above Naruto, but other than that, it didn't do much outside of that. The main reason his chakras grew powerful during the TimeSkip was because Sasuke was a genius and Orochimaru even proves that when Sasuke's growth is attributed towards being a greater genius than even he was, not that the Cursed Seal had influenced his body.
Yea but the pills did play a large part in the speed of that growth and Oro sayin Sasuke was a genius greater than himself at the same age doesn't hold much when compared to Madara who was literally doing battle with hashi and the senju day after day , constantly buliding stats and was second only to hashirama in talent/power , both who were implied to bein stronger or on par with their experienced parents as kids , younger than hebi Sasuke was at the time.
Actually we do and EMS Madara could never use PS at all. All he could do was manifest a V3 Susano'o and that makes sense given that Hashirama did not have Sage Mode, suggesting that both never reached their full potential and the fact that Base Hashirama's Mokuton was on a much lesser scale than it was at VoTE.
Ur only assuming he never used it , even so Mokujin was likely on par with PS and it doesn't make sense for madara to have had and used MS till he was blind but could only muster at best a V1 or V2 Susano before EMS ,
yet even itachi with vastly inferior chakra in potency and power could.
We know for a fact that Madara didn't even awaken PS until a considerable amount of time passed after obtaining the EMS whereas Sasuke awakened it and did everything with that Madara could at his best in a single day.
U can only assume this since we never got to see the full fight between early EMS Madara and the Senjus , and because madara only demonstred PS on paper at VOTE u assume that he unlocked it at that point which isn't fact and cant be noted as such.
EMS Sasuke displayed much greater growth than Madara did. Furthermore, you're making the assumption that Madara had stronger chakras due being engaged in constant battle which doesn't really tell that his chakra potency was greater than Sasuke's as Sasuke by far, challenged greater opponents (for the most part) such as Bee, Danzo, and the Gokage and because of that his chakra potency rose above Madara's even quicker because Sasuke with his MS unlocked a V4 Susano'o. It wasn't until Madara obtained the EMS that he displayed a V3 Susano'o.
But regardless, you're right that Madara had greater chakra potency when comparing both their Perfect Susano'os, but you're disregarding the fact that with even more training and experience that he would've bridged the gap between them and possibly obtained a chakra even greater than Madara's.
As for Kurama's effect on Sasuke, there's no evidence that Kurama's chakra enhances a Dojutsu user's growth at all and I don't see how it would. The only reason the Cursed Seal did somewhat was because it synchronized with his body whereas that wasn't the case with Kurama's chakra at all, so I disagree with that notion entirely.
KM Kakashi without a cloak got his Dojutsu amped to the point where he could instantly Kamui snipe the Hachibi and juubi so its highly possible that Sasuke's chakra gained similar Limit-Breakers.
Kurama's Chakra also synchronzes with the body as i dont know how it wouldn't in the first place since the chakra is still there even when the cloak is gone as kakashi noted.
Sure, but we do know that Madara was training constantly, so we have no idea how long it took for him to build up to that level of power. Likely a considerable amount of time. Izuna looked noticeably younger and was duking it out with Tobirama, so Madara likely trained for a few years to even get to that point. Madara was killing Senju Adults, but Sasuke in a matter of a month was outclassing Gaara who was implied to be way above Chuunin Level and the entire Sand Village depended on him for the success of the Konoha Invasion. We don't even know how long it took for Madara to get to a level where he could kill Senju Adults, so I honestly don't really think we can use that as evidence. To be honest, it seemed more reasonable that it took him a few years to reach that point which doesn't convey to me how his growth surpassed Sasuke's.
Sasuke outclassing gaara means ntn really , when these Adult Senju were likely above or around 3T Kakashi's level who would have no problem with chunin prelims gaara.
We kno for a fact that kid madara was killing adult senju before he even had his sharingan and he seemed to be at around VOTE1 Sasukes age at the time so kid madara before shrinagan was already mid/high jonin level in skill.
Those enhancement pills boosted Sasuke quite a bit, but certainly not to the extent you're implying. It boosted his overall strength, but it did not in anyway contribute to the growth and progress he made through Orochimaru's training and Orochimaru even admitted that Sasuke was a greater genius than he was which was why he could get as far as he could in the first place.
How could it not contribute to the speed of his growth when it sped up his stats? obviously his talent played a part but ignoring it all togther is bein intellectually dishonest.
Furthermore, I disagree with the notion of Sasuke's growth being unnatural. Awakening the Sharingan is a natural part of an Uchiha's progression and awakening it at such a young age not only implies you were under the right circumstances to awaken it, but you were also very talented and a prodigy.
Its unnatural compared to madara since sasuke took pills to unnaturally amp his stats along with the natural progress of his sharingan.
In order to awaken the sharingan a uchiha just needs to be hit with the right level of emotion/goal as u said , it has ntn to do with talent or bein a prodigy.
This was implied when Itachi awakened it at the age of 8 and when Haku witnessed Sasuke activate it during their fight. If anything, you just showed that Sasuke awakened a 3T Sharingan far faster than Madara could awaken a 1T Sharingan which alone implies that Sasuke's potential with Dojutsu is greater than Madara's which is the most important factor in this match.
It was implied that itachi unlocked his sharingan after seein the horrible reality of war and due to him bein a pacifist and wanting to change that he unlocked his sharingan. Sasuke unlocked his sharingan against itachi due to the emotion felt due to the death of his family/clan.
Madara unlocked his sharingan due bein torn up emotionally on the inside due to bein placed at a cross-road between his Friend and his Clan , so its not about who is the better prodigy or who has stronger chakra and we have no clue when he unlocked 3T.
Sasuke unlocked his 3T due to his determination and goal towards beating naruto and killing itachi so this in no way means that sasuke's potential with doujutsu is above madara's only that sasuke felt wat he needed to feel in order to advance his Chakra and Eyes.
You do raise a good point that Kid Madara could've been on par with 3T Sasuke, but that's merely an assumption and doesn't discredit the fact that Sasuke did display superior growth.
Only due to the enhacement pill at the time and the right emotional push which would simultaneously work just the same for madara as it did for him if madara felt the way he felt.
His growth in VOTE1 still paled in comparison to madara's level at a similar age despite madara not even having his sharingan yet , kid madara was portrayed way above the likes of KN0 Naruto even before his eyes and chakra evolved due to the awakening of his sharingan yet Sasuke needed to take a pill which greatly amped his physical stats along with 3T in order to compete with a enemy far weaker and less experienced than The Adult Senjus madara killed mulitple times with just natural talent and skill/power as a kid.
again, that's something you can't prove and while battle experience is effective, it's certainly not a significant factor in match-ups, not when Sasuke is indeed one of the most analytical and tactical fighters in the manga and Madara's experience, when Rikudou Sasuke did fight him as a Juubi Jin amounted to nothing and really left JJ Madara doing nothing, but praise Sasuke the entire time.
I know this but EXP is a noteable factor in match-ups especially when they have similar powers , Madra simply complimented Sasuke on his speed and analytical prowess.
I don't see experience being that much of a factor. Furthermore, very doubtful MS Madara had higher chakra potency. It wasn't until awakening the EMS that he obtained a V3 Susano'o whereas Sasuke with his MS awakened a V4 Susano'o shortly after his battle against the Kages. Only thing that could be argued is superiority in physical stats which is something that isn't as meaningful in a battle between 2 MS users.
Again how could madara use his MS to the point where it was blind but was only able to muster a V1 or V2 Susano'o when itachi who had far less potent chakra and far less of it could use a V4?
Doesn't make sense.:|
Sorry for the long(ish) wait. Haven't been too interested in Naruto debating lately.
its ok bro i know the feeling tho im not too pleased how u left our Neji vs lee debate since i was convinced i beat u and was waiting to see if u could debunk my post , but its cool.
