Tsunade and Saukra vs Deidara and Kakuzu

super yang

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databooks aren't a part of the canon, which is the literature.
databooks are merely merchandise, & while the info is still a part of the same universe they refer to, they are window-dressing, like the epilogue is - they contain no additional literature or meaningful insight

jutsu ranks don't mean anything within the storyline; & how could they - they aren't even present there...

and stats refer to hypothetical affinities & usage rates or *preference over many battles, NOT to power rankings or ''tiers'' of *specialization/expertize in the areas at a set value

*remember, the stat ''totals'' are fake and never given in those books
they dont represent a accumulation of power between 1 ninja to the next.
they have less worth than colored cover pages in shounen jump*
 
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ToshiZO

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Actually this is actually just stupidity at this point. What is the databook? Is it Kishi's way of elaborating on that which is but not explicitly stated or displayed? Well yes, that's exactly what it seems to be. That may be why it explicates what justus do and provide a power level to them. Actually I wonder if that's why Kishi seems to include information that doesn't exist within the pages of the manga... such as enumerating which elements characters have or don't have. I sure wonder why the skills have a rating next to them between one and five Even the skills we haven't seen seem to have ratings next to them? I can't possibly seem to imagine why? I wonder if those ratings mean to state how proficient those characters are at the thing they are next to? Why would Kishi include that kind of information? Is he trying to to explicate tiers of abilities to allow us to understand his artistic vision and the portrayal of characters?

Again this is idiocy, if Kishi says that Hidan's skill in Ninjutsu is that which warrants a 5 then the burden of proof is on those who wish to say that when he performs ninjutsu it is not masterfully performed. However, if it can't be disproved there is no contradiction and Kishi's rating remains valid. Not seeing him use ninjutsu (which we did see) and not seeing him use many jutsu still doesn't mean his doesn't have a mastery of the ninjutsu he possess. And as 5 is the highest rating, the top tier of all of the ratings, that means that he has a mastery of the ninjutsu that he uses. And that the ninjutsu is difficult enough that mastery of it gains him the highest tier of ranking in ninjutsu. None of this is complicated. Pretty basic stuff.



Did you say that Gaara hasn't earned his 5 in ninjutsu? Literally every move we've ever seen Gaara use was ninjutsu. Thus there are two possibilities you have no idea what your talking about, or you think Gaara is incompetent as a ninja and kage.

Are you thick? "Databook Scores don't mean much when a character hasn't displayed has displayed zilch"? Actually it means everything. It means you have no room to comment, because there are no contradictions. Kishi has stated it as fact and thus it is so as there are no contradictions. You just don't like that it is so. You want it not to be so. But there's no conceivable reason why it isn't so. How else do you suppose you measure a character's ninjutsu ability when you haven't seen it? Are you going to assume they possess no ninjutsu and are incapable of shunshin jutsu and even bunshin jutsu, what about substitution jutsu are we to assume that those who you haven't seen use the most basic of ninjutsu are incapable of doing so? You assume that unless you see something, and you didn't see the vast majority of Tsunade or Hidan's arsenal, that you know what isn't in it when Kishimoto states otherwise.

So when you see some one use a top tier Katon jutsu almost exclusively are they a top tier ninjutsu user, probably as their skills in that ninjutsu is top tier. If a person uses top tier sand ninjutsu are they a top tier ninjutsu user? Yes, Gaara is. Likewise top tier medical ninjutsu, namely that which is the gold standard for chakra control certainly implies that their usage of other ninjutsu would be flawless if its of lesser difficulty. Medical ninjutsu is ninjutsu, it takes the most precise of chakra control. Tsunade developed, not just used, but created two S-rank techniques. One of which rivaled the skill portrayed by the God of Shinobi.

Luckily, no one asked you as you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Tsunade punched away the Katon because someone undeniably top tier in ninjutsu couldn't form a ninjutsu fast enough to counter. So you think she should have started trying to form a ninjutsu after Mei displayed that her ninjutsu wouldn't have been fast enough? Yeah that makes sense. The only response that possibly would have made sense would be a physical defense. Otherwise Gaara and Oonoki's two pronged defense could have been used again. However even the manga hints at Tsunade have strong ninjutsu skills. In fact what were Kabuto's words when we he got hit by Ranshinsho, yes, he described the power of being that of a living legend, y'know because the jutsu is of a high tier technique exceeding his own abilities, which were on par with Kakashi's at the time.

Kishi doesn't even know what hes doing in canon let alone in the databooks. Stop saying Kishi this Kishi that. Stats that contradict manga feats and portrayal are meaningless. For example Hidan's speed stat, is below Asumas by a significant amount. That was not shown to be the case in the manga, hence databook = useless in that case.
 

RedRobin

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databooks aren't a part of the canon, which is the literature.
databooks are merely merchandise, & while the info is still a part of the same universe they refer to, they are window-dressing, like the epilogue is - they contain no additional literature or meaningful insight

jutsu ranks don't mean anything within the storyline; & how could they - they aren't even present there...

and stats refer to hypothetical affinities & usage rates or *preference over many battles, NOT to power rankings or ''tiers'' of *specialization/expertize in the areas at a set value

*remember, the stat ''totals'' are fake and never given in those books
they dont represent a accumulation of power between 1 ninja to the next.
they have less worth than colored cover pages in shounen jump*

Databooks contain lots of information that actually was not in the manga. Lets not pretend You have never used the databook to prove a point. Lets not please.
 

ToshiZO

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Databooks contain lots of information that actually was not in the manga. Lets not pretend You have never used the databook to prove a point. Lets not please.

We're talking about stats here. A bunch of numbers appointed to skills....
 

NarutoX28

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Databook is supplemental evidence used to fill in the gaps that the Manga didn't. There's really not much of a reason to deny the Databook unless it outright contradicts the Manga.
 

RedRobin

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We're talking about stats here. A bunch of numbers appointed to skills....

Its something You take into account. Not ignore because Tsunade has very high numbers.
 

ToshiZO

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Its something You take into account. Not ignore because Tsunade has very high numbers.

Its something you don't use to appoint someone a top tier in. Hidan is a top tier ninjutsu user. Dope.

Hell yea I'm gonna ignore random numbers, let the manga do the talking, Tsunade isn't featless that we need to rely on databooks to hand her titles.....

If we're talking about Mangetsu Hozuki here, sure...I guess?

Tsunade has a 5, lets act like she is some expert Raiton user lmfao...gtfo with that nonsense.
 

super yang

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Databooks contain lots of information that actually was not in the manga. Lets not pretend You have never used the databook to prove a point. Lets not please.
this made me lol~

if only u could see every post i've ever written...becuz i've never used a piece of fan merchandise to explain the way I assess matchups & opinionate on this or any other fiction.
and I don't debate either

*and no, absolutely not, they contain no relevant or creatively new info, nor do they amend anything or have any priority over the literature*
 
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RedRobin

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Its something you don't use to appoint someone a top tier in. Hidan is a top tier ninjutsu user. Dope.

Hell yea I'm gonna ignore random numbers, let the manga do the talking, Tsunade isn't featless that we need to rely on databooks to hand her titles.....

If we're talking about Mangetsu Hozuki here, sure...I guess?

Tsunade has a 5, lets act like she is some expert Raiton user lmfao...gtfo with that nonsense.

Actually never said the 5 proves her to be a top tier ninjustu user. Someone said hidan has no ninjustu yet has a 5, which is not true. Tsunade's ninjustu feats were brought up plus the that stat.

No one said anything like that.
 

RedRobin

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this made me lol~

if only u could see every post i've ever written...becuz i've never used a piece of fan merchandise to explain the way I assess matchups & opinionate on this or any other fiction.
and I don't debate either

and no, absolutely not, they contain no relevant or creatively new info, nor do they amend anything or have any priority over the literature
Dude I already know You are full of crap. 100% complete lie.
 

super yang

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Dude I already know You are full of crap. 100% complete lie.

wow, I feel so persecuted and tortured atm...irl upset a bit srsly

so u just level a baseless insult at me and thaaaaaaats it?!
 

RedRobin

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wow, I feel so persecuted and tortured atm...irl upset a bit srsly

so u just level a baseless insult at me and thaaaaaaats it?!

You 100% have used the databook before. Dont act like you havent. Its just a huge lie. No point in even trying it.
 

NarutoX28

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Its something you don't use to appoint someone a top tier in. Hidan is a top tier ninjutsu user. Dope.

Hell yea I'm gonna ignore random numbers, let the manga do the talking, Tsunade isn't featless that we need to rely on databooks to hand her titles.....

If we're talking about Mangetsu Hozuki here, sure...I guess?

Tsunade has a 5, lets act like she is some expert Raiton user lmfao...gtfo with that nonsense.

We used it as supplemental evidence. I don't think anyone stated that a 5 alone made her a top tier ninjutsu user.
 

ToshiZO

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Actually never said the 5 proves her to be a top tier ninjustu user. Someone said hidan has no ninjustu yet has a 5, which is not true. Tsunade's ninjustu feats were brought up plus the that stat.

No one said anything like that.
I said Hidan barely showed any ninjutsu, so I'm not going to appoint him a top tier in that category just because he has the number 5.

Implications buddy. Atleast 2 people here have implied something similar to my last statement. Even trying their best to add more elements to her arsenal and using the databook stat to justify it.
 

super yang

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You 100% have used the databook before. Dont act like you havent. Its just a huge lie. No point in even trying it.

but I haven't ''used'' it

I go to narutowiki to find trivial things like chapters of debut & correct japanese names of techs.
I have written many paragraphs about debunking the databooks relevance multiple times on this site & others


wow... i don't even...how old r U?
if U want, I'll apologize for not being a sheep...
 
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Tazzilla88

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databooks aren't a part of the canon, which is the literature.
databooks are merely merchandise, & while the info is still a part of the same universe they refer to, they are window-dressing, like the epilogue is - they contain no additional literature or meaningful insight

jutsu ranks don't mean anything within the storyline; & how could they - they aren't even present there...

and stats refer to hypothetical affinities & usage rates or *preference over many battles, NOT to power rankings or ''tiers'' of *specialization/expertize in the areas at a set value

*remember, the stat ''totals'' are fake and never given in those books
they dont represent a accumulation of power between 1 ninja to the next.
they have less worth than colored cover pages in shounen jump*

Canon by definition means
3
[Middle English, from Late Latin, from Latin, standard]
a : an authoritative list of books accepted as Holy Scripture
b : the authentic works of a writer
c : a sanctioned or accepted group or body of related works <the canon of great literature>
So my issue is now this, you are trying to create a definition for canon. But the databooks are a part of the canon as is the epilogue. As those events that actually took place in the narutoverse. Boruto is cannon for that reason.

Nextly, nothing suggests that stats suggest affinities or usage rates otherwise the stamina stat is useless. It denotes ability and provides a rough estimate of how their skill stacks against other shinobi numerically.

And of course adding up the stats are fake in the sense that they aren't given no one mentioned doing so. You're setting up straw man

Jutsu ranks are meant to aid in understanding Kishi's idea of understanding power levels in the manga. He wrote it. It is canon.
To say that it is only about literature (of which databooks are but that's not what you meant), you meant to to say it is only about the manga, but that isn't true as that isn't a criterion of canon by definition.


Essentially you're just making stuff up because you don't like what Kishi wrote.

Kishi doesn't even know what hes doing in canon let alone in the databooks. Stop saying Kishi this Kishi that. Stats that contradict manga feats and portrayal are meaningless. For example Hidan's speed stat, is below Asumas by a significant amount. That was not shown to be the case in the manga, hence databook = useless in that case.

Yes however, you not seeing something does not mean that it's contradicting portrayal. And Tsunade being a top tier ninjutsu user as per the databook does not contradict the manga Note Kabuto's words. He's absolutely shocked by the display of power in that jutsu
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Now as far as contradictions go, where they exist there can be a discussion about interpretation and if one of the primary sources are wrong.
Of which there are two schools of thought, what ever was written in the first context was their original intent

Then there is the idea that what comes later is that which the author decided to self correct such as The God of Shinobi title going to Hashirama instead of Hiruzen
 

super yang

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[Middle English, from Late Latin, from Latin, standard]
a : an authoritative list of books accepted as Holy Scripture
b : the authentic works of a writer
c : a sanctioned or accepted group or body of related works <the canon of great literature>
except a databok is not a work of literature silly rabbit

also ''officially licensed'' & ''authentic'' are not the same thing, totally different contexts there, slugger...

one refers to things that can be bought & sold , while the other refers to the telling of a story
 
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Tazzilla88

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except a databok is not a work of literature silly rabbit

also ''officially licensed'' & ''authentic'' are not the same thing, totally different contexts there, slugger...

one refers to things that can be bought & sold , while the other refers to the telling of a story

Does the definition say works of literature? No. However, it says all works written by an author of which the databooks were.

Also, if you want to have a linguistic discussion about what literature means, we can look at it's lexicology, how it has derived semantically, phonologically, and morphologically to determine if what you say is true. Considering that's the type of work I just finished up doing last semester, I can do it if you feel like reading about ten pages, none of which relates back to Naruto or Tsunade, but simply how words function, how they are derived and created, how a meaning is applied to a word and how the meanings have evolved since the original creation of it's parent word diphthera. All of which will display that you are incorrect.

If you don't want to engage in the sort of work that linguists actually do, then we can take a short cut and look at a dictionary for the definition of literature which is as follows:
3
a (1) : writings in prose or verse; especially : writings having excellence of form or expression and expressing ideas of permanent or universal interest (2) : an example of such writings <what came out, though rarely literature, was always a roaring good story — People>
b : the body of written works produced in a particular language, country, or age
c : the body of writings on a particular subject <scientific literature>
d : printed matter (as leaflets or circulars) <campaign literature>

The first ever usage of literature that excluded some forms of knowledge that are gained through a book was in 1779 by Samuel Johnson in Lives of the English Poets. In which he defined literature as "literary production or work" which still doesn't exclude the databooks but contributes to the idea that they are in fact literature.

The only thing in which you might point to is that snobbish school of thought that derived following Ezra Pound's 1934 release of ABC's of Reading, in which he makes a comment about what Great literature is and not literature no holds barred. It from the idea of great literature that the A definition arose. But it's semantic history quickly shows then that the definition was never meant to literally apply to the term literature as a complete descriptor of what literature is no holds barred.


Now on to your usage of the terms authentic

Definitionally it means
1.
not false or copied; genuine; real:
an authentic antique.
2.
having the origin supported by unquestionable evidence; authenticated; verified:
an authentic document of the Middle Ages; an authentic work of the old master.
3.
entitled to acceptance or belief because of agreement with known facts or experience; reliable; trustworthy:
an authentic report on poverty in Africa.
4.
Law. executed with all due formalities:
an authentic deed.
5.
Music.

(of a church mode) having a range extending from the final to the octave above.
Compare plagal.
(of a cadence) consisting of a dominant harmony followed by a tonic.

6.
Obsolete. authoritative.

If we look at its etymology we still see no evidence of authenticity being tied to whether or not a thing is created for the purposes of selling. You outright made that up. As an authentic Picasso, was painted for the purposes of being sold and not for the purposes of telling a story or conveying a deeper message. As opposed to the databook which does include information not explicitly stated in the manga. But returning to linguistics authenticity is about truthfulness and reliability. It and canonical stood to be synonyms in the 13 century. You can't Trump your way out of a logical discussion by just making up your facts. Facts exist and can be supported by math or history, certainly by reason. The lines of logic can be drawn out.

You set up a false dichotomy by suppossing that authentic and officially licensed were things that could be compared in this case. But they can't because Kishimoto wrote the Databooks. Making them both authentic and officially licensed, implying that it's not a one or the other scenario and that they are two separate ideas that need not necessarily conflict.

IF all you have are logical fallacies and statements you make up that contradict logic and well Kishimoto's words and illustrations, you are incorrect. Fundamentally so.
 

Forbidden Technique

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Katsuyu is more useful than Gaara's sand. It healed the entire shinobi army, put Tsunade back together and allowed the other kage to be healed in addition being able to be used as an offensive summon. And it was able to protect people from Chou Shinra Tensei.

It would appear that way while conveniently not considering the context of the feats you've presented. Gaara's sand is far more overall useful. You're outrageously fanboying with the whole lot of this Gokage ranking.
 

BLAZE

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Super Yang being super yang aka spewing nonsense :lol
 
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