[Discussion] Religion

[Marin]

Tithing, meaning giving 10% of your income to the church, is one of them. This is something Christians do and it's utter bullshit. They say you have to give it up to get God's blessing when in reality you don't since it's not even written anywhere in the testaments. And when you don't they treat you like second class, can't sit in the front, and some don't even let you into the church. Shit. Let me open up a Christian church and watch me buy a Lamborghini by the end of the month. Don't even gotta pay taxes! Perfect business!

One more reason to stay clear of religion, their brainwashed sheep, and the made up crap that comes along with it.

I have no idea what church you went to, but where I am its nothing like that and that should tell you something.

I'm not Christian. I'm Muslim. Although I think no one can really deny Christianity isn't in it's original form when even Christians themselves admit the Bible has been altered ans changed.

What christians? What you're going for is a standard muslim attack "bible corrupt hurr durr" which doesn't have nowhere near good enough support to be claimed as a fact.

 

[Marin]

I came across three Christian churches (back when I was a church goer) that used such tactics to extort money from their visitors. I know not all of them are like that, but it seems to be the religion that abuses this the most and seemingly the most successful one in terms of bringing in the cash. Honestly, religion is more of a business now. Doesn't make it any better when I see priests with top-of-the-line BMWs, Mercedes, Lincoln, etc. It just doesn't sit right with me.

Hm, well no doubt religion is abused but I find it hard to believe some would actually take 10% of income. I swear if my locals did that there'd be a boycot.

My priests drive the usual cars, nothing crappy but nothing special either. What you mentioned is a despicable act but these things don't occur in the majority.

Out of curiosity tho, which denomination do they belong to?

 

[Made in Heaven]

Isn't your religion the one that allows men to beat their wives if they disobey?

Nope, and don't go using a word like disobey when it's such a broad term.

It has been translated and interpreted, not altered

Okay, sorry. I'm not here to cause trouble.

What christians? What you're going for is a standard muslim attack "bible corrupt hurr durr" which doesn't have nowhere near good enough support to be claimed as a fact.

So it's in the same form it was brought to Prophet Jesus? I've heard plenty of people, muslim and non-muslim, say it has been, even Christians .

 

[Deadlift]

I came across three Christian churches (back when I was a church goer) that used such tactics to extort money from their visitors. I know not all of them are like that, but it seems to be the religion that abuses this the most and seemingly the most successful one in terms of bringing in the cash. Honestly, religion is more of a business now. Doesn't make it any better when I see priests with top-of-the-line BMWs, Mercedes, Lincoln, etc. It just doesn't sit right with me.
.

It was like that in Jesus' times too. He's been clear about that topic: He said to listen carefully to them, because they say very beautiful things, but not to take example from their behavior.
Said this, Christianity never claimed to make perfect beings those who convert, so it's normal that they keep being sinful, even if they know it's wrong and then repent. Still assuming they really follow Christianity, and I doubt it in lots of cases.
Also, there are a number of Christian religious people and priests who do awesome things in the name of their faith, so to say that religion sucks because you've seen priests driving a Lamborghini isn't exactly big deal

 

[I m an Ass]

I'm not Christian. I'm Muslim. Although I think no one can really deny Christianity isn't in it's original form when even Christians themselves admit the Bible has been altered ans changed.

stop with the taqiyya what you're saying is nonsense according to Allah,Muhammed and the Quran itself
because the Quran admits that the bible is the word of God and Allah makes it a big deal by saying that "no one can corrupt
his word" if the bible is indeed "corrupted" like many muslims say then allah is not all powerfull.

not to mention that muslims don't have the original quran because it was burned and redone after Muhammed died by 3rd caliph Uthman ibn 'Affan ,so muslims don't follow Muhammed but Uthman,No one really knows what Muhammed wrote and btw Muhammed was a self self proclaimed prophet

 

[Kingu]

stop with the taqiyya what you're saying is nonsense according to Allah,Muhammed and the Quran itself
because the Quran admits that the bible is the word of God and Allah makes it a big deal by saying that "no one can corrupt
his word" if the bible is indeed "corrupted" like many muslims say then allah is not all powerfull.

not to mention that muslims don't have the original quran because it was burned and redone after Muhammed died by 3rd caliph Uthman ibn 'Affan ,so muslims don't follow Muhammed but Uthman,No one really knows what Muhammed wrote and btw Muhammed was a self self proclaimed prophet

Mohamed couldn't read or write.

 

[Made in Heaven]

stop with the taqiyya what you're saying is nonsense according to Allah,Muhammed and the Quran itself
because the Quran admits that the bible is the word of God and Allah makes it a big deal by saying that "no one can corrupt
his word" if the bible is indeed "corrupted" like many muslims say then allah is not all powerfull.

not to mention that muslims don't have the original quran because it was burned and redone after Muhammed died by 3rd caliph Uthman ibn 'Affan ,so muslims don't follow Muhammed but Uthman,No one really knows what Muhammed wrote and btw Muhammed was a self self proclaimed prophet

Okay, first off, Muslims believe the Gospel and the Torah are the words of God sent to Prophet Jesus and Prophet Moses. But with time, they were corrupted by people, and thus can't necessarily be consider his words 100% anymore.

And no, Allah doesn't say his word can't be corrupted, he said the Quran can't be corrupted. And that's what's happened.

The Quran was memorized by the close companions of the Prophet, some knowing it partially, and some knowing it fully, and through their memorization of the Quran, Uthman compiled it completely, himself included.

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As for the last bit, Prophet Muhammad was illiterate, so to claim he wrote the Quran makes you out to be rather ignorant regarding the man, and even more so when you claim he was a self proclaimed Prophet.

What reason, I ask of you, What reason would a man of NOBILITY like him claim prophethood when all it did was bring him trouble and pain in this world? What would motivate him to claim prophethood? Huh?

 

[I m an Ass]

Mohamed couldn't read or write.

It does not matter really, he could have had someone write for him (which is what happened. The quran was spoken word until others wrote it down). Besides, it makes no sense. He was raised by his rich and powerful uncle who had every capability to get him an education.

There's no evidence he was illiterate and btw didn't he encounter an angel who told him to read and he did....

 

[I m an Ass]

Okay, first off, Muslims believe the Gospel and the Torah are the words of God sent to Prophet Jesus and Prophet Moses. But with time, they were corrupted by people, and thus can't necessarily be consider his words 100% anymore.

And no, Allah doesn't say his word can't be corrupted, he said the Quran can't be corrupted. And that's what's happened.

The Quran was memorized by the close companions of the Prophet, some knowing it partially, and some knowing it fully, and through their memorization of the Quran, Uthman compiled it completely, himself included.

You must be registered for see links

As for the last bit, Prophet Muhammad was illiterate, so to claim he wrote the Quran makes you out to be rather ignorant regarding the man, and even more so when you claim he was a self proclaimed Prophet.

What reason, I ask of you, What reason would a man of NOBILITY like him claim prophethood when all it did was bring him trouble and pain in this world? What would motivate him to claim prophethood? Huh?

The Quran says that the books of Moses, the Psalms, and the gospel were all given by God.

Torah--"We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers," (Sura 2:87).1
Psalms--"We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms," (4:163).
Gospel--"It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong)," (3:3).
Also, "And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah," (5:46).
We see that the Qu'ran states that the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel were all given by God. With this we Christians heartily agree. But, the Muslims claim that the Bible is corrupted and full of contradictions. If that is so, then it would seem they do not believe the Qu'ran since the Qu'ran says that the Word of God cannot be altered:

"Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers," (6:34).
"The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all," (6:115).
"For them are glad tidings, in the life of the present and in the Hereafter; no change can there be in the words of Allah. This is indeed the supreme felicity," (10:64).
When Muhammed (570-632) was alive, he claimed to receive the revelation of the Qu'ran from Allah. This means that at that time the Bible, which was in existence, could not have been corrupted because the Qu'ran states that God's word cannot be corrupted. The question I have for the Muslims is: "When and where was the Bible corrupted since the Qu'ran says that the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel are from Allah and Allah's words cannot be changed?

 

[Kingu]

It does not matter really, he could have had someone write for him (which is what happened. The quran was spoken word until others wrote it down). Besides, it makes no sense. He was raised by his rich and powerful uncle who had every capability to get him an education.

There's no evidence he was illiterate and btw didn't he encounter an angel who told him to read and he did....

What? Who or what are your sources??

 

[Marin]

So it's in the same form it was brought to Prophet Jesus? I've heard plenty of people, muslim and non-muslim, say it has been, even Christians .

What you're basically asking me are the teachings in the Bible the exact thing that was thaught by Jesus, and that is a question noone can answer with certainty. Why? Well, much like with every other historical event, the only things we know are the things that have been recorded. There is always a chance that the recordings were falsified. What matters is how big is the probability of that happening?

Here, the study of historical Jesus gives me great confidence that the scriptures are indeed historically accurate, but is this a 100% certain? No, just like with everything else that has happened and still happens, there is a shadow of doubt. A possibility that everything we know is a lie, that we don't really exist, various conspiracy theories etc. We don't know for sure. What matters is the probability and it hints in the favour of the scriptures being true rather than false, so symbolically, it comes down to faith.

Having said that, I as a Christian, absolutely believe the Bible to contain the authentic, unaltered, uncorrupted, preserved teaching. So next time don't put words into a mouth of one man, let alone a whole group.

 

[Made in Heaven]

It does not matter really, he could have had someone write for him (which is what happened. The quran was spoken word until others wrote it down).

Others wrote it down, but the human source was from him, an illiterate man. The true source, of course, would be God.

Besides, it makes no sense.

Course not. You can't explain how an illiterate man could come up with something as eloquent as the Quran unless you accept that it came from divinity.

He was raised by his rich and powerful uncle who had every capability to get him an education.

Proposing that something could or should have happened doesn't mean it did.

Writing wasn't exactly common in Arabia, so that wouldn't have been as easy as you'd like to think. Not only that, the prophet was a mere shepard/merchant until he was 40, so he would have no need to learn how to read. And thus he didn't. Even the people around him, the non-muslims, were astonished by what he was doing, because they knew for a fact that he could not read/

There's no evidence he was illiterate

Yeah, I guess if you want to exclude all the narrations and reports of the people who lived at his time, muslim and non-muslim, saying that he couldn't read or write, and he himself admitting so, and instead claim he was literate based on nothing but your desire to continue acting like Prophet Jesus was God's son, then you're right.

and btw didn't he encounter an angel who told him to read and he did....

Angel Gabreil told him to "Recite". Read and Recite can mean the same in arabic, as such, the Prophet became confused when Angel Gabreil first told him this, and he explained that he could not read.

Also, it's funny how you take anything you want as fact and others as fiction based on what you want to believe. Claiming Angel Gabriel telling him to read (even though he actually told him to recite) is proof that Prophet Muhammad could read (which, for a non-muslim like yourself, is just fiction, as an angel wouldn't visit a false prophet) makes no sense, as by believing this, you believe he was visited by an Angel.

Yet , you accept Angel Gabriel visiting him, and deny the reports of him being illiterate which came from humans. Okay.

 

[Deadlift]

This thread is awesome. Everybody is discussing politely and making good points of what he believes. Never seen such a thing in a thread about religion

 

[Made in Heaven]

The Quran says that the books of Moses, the Psalms, and the gospel were all given by God.

Torah--"We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers," (Sura 2:87).1
Psalms--"We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms," (4:163).
Gospel--"It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong)," (3:3).
Also, "And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah," (5:46).

Okay

We see that the Qu'ran states that the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel were all given by God. With this we Christians heartily agree. But, the Muslims claim that the Bible is corrupted and full of contradictions. If that is so, then it would seem they do not believe the Qu'ran since the Qu'ran says that the Word of God cannot be altered:

"Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers," (6:34).
"The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all," (6:115).
"For them are glad tidings, in the life of the present and in the Hereafter; no change can there be in the words of Allah. This is indeed the supreme felicity," (10:64).

This means no one can change his laws. That no matter what they do, right will be right, and wrong will be wrong. It is not saying that the scriptures the Prophets received from God can't be altered by humans, as God has said in the Quran that the previous books (Gospel/Torah) were altered and forged for self-gain. However, he chose to preserve the Quran, as it would be the final book until the final day.

When Muhammed (570-632) was alive, he claimed to receive the revelation of the Qu'ran from Allah. This means that at that time the Bible, which was in existence, could not have been corrupted because the Qu'ran states that God's word cannot be corrupted. The question I have for the Muslims is: "When and where was the Bible corrupted since the Qu'ran says that the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel are from Allah and Allah's words cannot be changed?

The bible corrupted like 100 or so years after Prophet Jesus by morons like Paul. And then there was that whole issue with that king who accepted Christianity and then proceeded to kill any other Christian of other sects and burned their versions of the bible. Any who, that reminds me, why does the bible have versions if it's not supposed to be changed? Especially when certain versions contradict others?

 

[Deadlift]

Why do you say Paul was a moron?

 

[Jinrou]

Enforce = giving one a coin with tails on both sides and tell him to flip it and if you get tails you're doing things my way :|
I was clean slate my self going to church every f*cking Sunday until I was like f*ck mom I am not going back there anymore

I agree with your definition of the word 'Enforce' But i'm saying this is the wrong context to use it in. You're saying it as if babies are mentally developed enough to make choices. I repeat: What the parent believes is right is what they'll try to imbibe into their kids. When said kids grow older, they then can choose whether to continue in it or not. You being a case in a point.

 

[Made in Heaven]

What you're basically asking me are the teachings in the Bible the exact thing that was thaught by Jesus, and that is a question noone can answer with certainty. Why? Well, much like with every other historical event, the only things we know are the things that have been recorded. There is always a chance that the recordings were falsified. What matters is how big is the probability of that happening?

Here, the study of historical Jesus gives me great confidence that the scriptures are indeed historically accurate, but is this a 100% certain? No, just like with everything else that has happened and still happens, there is a shadow of doubt. A possibility that everything we know is a lie, that we don't really exist, various conspiracy theories etc. We don't know for sure. What matters is the probability and it hints in the favour of the scriptures being true rather than false, so symbolically, it comes down to faith.

Having said that, I as a Christian, absolutely believe the Bible to contain the authentic, unaltered, uncorrupted, preserved teaching. So next time don't put words into a mouth of one man, let alone a whole group.

I suppose this is sound reasoning, as I too can't be fully sure of anything. Still, it's not necessarily the preservation of the Gospel and Torah here that makes me disbelief Judaism or Christianity, but various other things in the two religions' beliefs and books that don't sit well with me in contrast to Islam, which does sit well with me.

 

[I m an Ass]

Others wrote it down, but the human source was from him, an illiterate man. The true source, of course, would be God.



Course not. You can't explain how an illiterate man could come up with something as eloquent as the Quran unless you accept that it came from divinity.


Proposing that something could or should have happened doesn't mean it did.

Writing wasn't exactly common in Arabia, so that wouldn't have been as easy as you'd like to think. Not only that, the prophet was a mere shepard/merchant until he was 40, so he would have no need to learn how to read. And thus he didn't. Even the people around him, the non-muslims, were astonished by what he was doing, because they knew for a fact that he could not read/


Yeah, I guess if you want to exclude all the narrations and reports of the people who lived at his time, muslim and non-muslim, saying that he couldn't read or write, and he himself admitting so, nd instead claim he was literate based on nothing but your desire to continue acting like Prophet Jesus was God's son, then you're write.

and btw didn't he encounter an angel who told him to read and he did....

Angel Gabreil told him to "Recite". Read and Recite can mean the same in arabic, as such, the Prophet became confused when Angel Gabreil first told him this, and he explained that he could not read.

Also, it's funny how you take anything you want as fact and others as fiction based on what you want to believe. Claiming Angel Gabriel telling him to read (even though he actually told him to recite) is proof that Prophet Muhammad could read (which, for a non-muslim like yourself, is just fiction, as an angel wouldn't visit a false prophet) makes no sense, as by believing this, you believe he was visited by an Angel.

Yet , you accept Angel Gabriel visiting him, and deny the reports of him being illiterate which came from humans. Okay.

Believe me just because Muhammad encountered an angel that does not mean the angel is from god it's a well known fact because in christianity Satan used to be an angel there is a difference between angel from god and fallen angel look it up

Btw your prophet encounter with an angel is very scary because of what is writen in the the bible

Galatians 1:8-9
8But even if we *or an angel from heaven* should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be under a divine curse! 9As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you embraced, let him be under a divine curse!

2 Corinthians 11:4
For *if someone comes and proclaims a Jesus other than the One we proclaimed*, or if you receive *a different spirit* than the One you received, or a different gospel than the one you accepted, you put up with it way too easily

Revelation 20:10
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

so what makes you think that the angel that encounterd muhammed was from God ? And
lets not even mention that your prophet wanted to kill himself after that encounter with an angel
that's not how it goes when someone sees an angel

 

[Avani]

Why do you say Paul was a moron?

Because you jinxed it with

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. :|

 

[Made in Heaven]

Why do you say Paul was a moron?

Because he's one of the people that messed around with Prophet Jesus' original Gospel. Course, that would be considered a sin in my eyes, as I believe that the Gospel Prophet Jesus had was God's word.