Obito, Itachi, Shisui?

[gerizzyYMcrew]

Yes, that is what I admitted, for once:

The same chakra build up that Shisui would have had to make,
which would be sensed,
because Kotoamatsukami requires chakra to activate, just like every dojutsu.
Therefore, Kotoamatsukami can be sensed prior to activation,
because it requires a chakra buildup,
because what activated Kotoamatsukami was the chakra build up in Itachi's right eye,
because the crows cannot just cast dojutsu without having a chakra source,
and that chakra source is Itachi,
just like the Amaterasu that Itachi programmed into Sasuke's eyes required a chakra build up from Sasuke to activate
So for Shisui to perform Kotoamatsukami, there must be a chakra source
And Shisui would be this chakra source
So he must build up chakra
Which would be sensed
And therefore, Kotoamatsukami can be sensed during its casting
Because what Nagato sensed was Kotoamatsukami
Since no other dojutsu was cast
And we know that Itachi can cast dojutsu remotely
Since Sharingan do not have to be placed in the eye sockets to activate their dojutsu
As demonstrated by his ability to cast Tsukuyomi from his crows
Or Danzo's ability to cast Izanagi from the Sharingans in his arms.
If you still don't understand, Itachi provided the chakra to Shisui's eye
Which casted Kotoamatsukami
Which is the same way anyone casting Kotoamatsukami would have to do it.
The only difference is where the eye is.
So no matter who is casting Kotoamatsukami
It requires a chakra buildup
That will be sensed
And therefore, Kotoamatsukami can be sensed, even if Shisui is the one casting it.

stopped reading @ bold...thank you mr. quaker :bdpf:

What? You mean the evidence that doesn't exist, because Kotoamatsukami can be cast once with each eye, and Shisui never displayed an intent to use it on more than one person prior to the Uchiha Clan Massacre, because you made your entire argument up from no manga scans whatsoever?

you can't be worldy famous for using a jutsu that controls people minds more than once per 10 years mr. quaker :bdpf:

I only ever said that he stated it in the anime. So no, I didn't make anything up. You made up that Shisui would use Kotoamatsukami on every Uchiha conspirator, and you have no evidence. Since your entire argument is predicated on this, your claim is not true, because your belief that Shisui intended to use Kotoamatsukami on every Uchiha conspirator is not true.

you used a non canon source of evidence...that's like me using the anime FILLER in an attempt to justify shisui being famous for using kotoamatsukami in front of ao who has never before SEEN THE JUTSU...casting genjutsu on fugaku is not stopping a clan of butthurt individuals who ALL feel disrespected by the village from revolting...if that is the case then madara uchiha never had to leave the village :sdo:

also using ANIME FILLER AS EVIDENCE???????...LMAOOOOO

Active Mangekyo =/= Active Dojutsu, many instances of this in the manga. He tried to use it. If he had been successful, why did nothing happen? Answer: He wasn't successful, and the dojutsu wasn't active.

thanks for admitting that kotoamatsukami does not have 10 yr cooldowns for shisui...ps @ bold how can shisui fail at using an undetectable genjutsu? :sdo:

in before you try using anime ****ing filler to answer this question...the jutsu SP showed shisui using on danzo was NOT kotoamatsukami...lololololololol

 

[Claymantan]

stopped reading @ bold...thank you mr. quaker :bdpf:

Don't know what you think you proved. All you've proven is that you ignored everything in the manga and just assumed that Kotoamatsukami is undetectable in spite of obvious evidence that it is not, and that your opinions are based on...nothing.

you can't be worldy famous for using a jutsu that controls people minds more than once per 10 years mr. quaker :bdpf:

He was worldly famous for his genjutsu skills. Bee was aware of the genjutsu prowess, but didn't know what Kotoamatsukami was.

you used a non canon source of evidence...that's like me using the anime FILLER in an attempt to justify shisui being famous for using kotoamatsukami in front of ao who has never before SEEN THE JUTSU...casting genjutsu on fugaku is not stopping a clan of butthurt individuals who ALL feel disrespected by the village from revolting...if that is the case then madara uchiha never had to leave the village :sdo:

I don't know why you keep referring to Madara. Madara didn't have Kotoamatsukami or Tsukuyomi. He left because he believed war was inevitable.

Ao knew about Kotoamatsukami, but there's no evidence that everyone else knew. And Ao is a hunter-nin who's job it is to gather intel. He knew about Danzo having transplanted Shisui's eye, but why would everyone know that this happened? Why would they have allowed him to just walk into the Kage Summit unquestioned if they knew about it? There's only evidence that Shisui's genjutsu prowess is famous.

also using ANIME FILLER AS EVIDENCE???????...LMAOOOOO

Used it to say that your completely-out-of-nowhere belief that Shisui intended to use Kotoamatsukami on everyone is completely out of nowhere and can easily be wrong. Since there's no proof anywhere that this is the case. None of my arguments rely on the anime. And you yourself wanted to show an anime clip first, but then you dropped it for whatever reason.

Your arguments rely on your imagination.

thanks for admitting that kotoamatsukami does not have 10 yr cooldowns for shisui...ps @ bold how can shisui fail at using an undetectable genjutsu? :sdo:

Kotoamatsukami is detectable, and Shisui failed because it is not only detectable, but has a startup time.

Shisui never successfully casted Kotoamatsukami during the entire time we saw him in the manga. This is manga fact, because Danzo still enacted the Uchiha Clan Massacre.

Kotoamatsukami has ten year cooldowns. He can use it twice within ten years because it has two eyes. He used it once at some point, and Danzo/Hiruzen at least knew about it, and at some point Ao found out about it, and then he planned to use it once more.

He failed because it has a start up time, as proven by the below:

Kotoamatsukami requires chakra to activate, just like every dojutsu.

Therefore, Kotoamatsukami can be sensed prior to activation, because it requires a chakra buildup. What activated Kotoamatsukami was the chakra build up that Itachi made, because the crows cannot just cast dojutsu without having a chakra source, and that chakra source is Itachi. Just like the Amaterasu that Itachi programmed into Sasuke's eyes required a chakra build up from Sasuke to activate.

So for Shisui to perform Kotoamatsukami, there must be a chakra source. And Shisui would be this chakra source. So he must build up chakra, which would be sensed, and therefore, Kotoamatsukami can be sensed during its casting, because what Nagato sensed was Kotoamatsukami, since no other dojutsu was cast. And we know that Itachi can cast dojutsu remotely, since Sharingan do not have to be placed in the eye sockets to activate their dojutsu. This is demonstrated by his ability to cast Tsukuyomi from his crows or Danzo's ability to cast Izanagi from the Sharingans in his arms.

If you still don't understand, Itachi provided the chakra to Shisui's eye, which casted Kotoamatsukami. This is the same way anyone casting Kotoamatsukami would have to do it. The only difference is where the eye is.

So no matter who is casting Kotoamatsukami:
It requires a chakra buildup that will be sensed.
Therefore, Kotoamatsukami can be sensed, even if Shisui is the one casting it.

 

[gerizzyYMcrew]

Don't know what you think you proved. All you've proven is that you ignored everything in the manga and just assumed that Kotoamatsukami is undetectable in spite of obvious evidence that it is not, and that your opinions are based on...nothing.

Claymantan Yes, that is what I admitted, for once

:bdpf:

He was worldly famous for his genjutsu skills. Bee was aware of the genjutsu prowess, but didn't know what Kotoamatsukami was.

"strongest genjutsu user" is what killer b stated...RIGHT AFTER he said that itachi said shisui can cast the "strongest genjutsu" which would be kotoamatsukami.

now tell me how the **** is shisui's gneric use of sharingan genjutsu better than ITACHI'S...a guy who's genjutsu cannot be detected by sensors?...lololololol

I don't know why you keep referring to Madara. Madara didn't have Kotoamatsukami or Tsukuyomi. He left because he believed war was inevitable.

because he is the sole reason why you are wrong and you know it :bdpf: ps he left after trying (and failing) to convince his clansmen DISPITE BEING THEIR LEADER.

Ao knew about Kotoamatsukami, but there's no evidence that everyone else knew. And Ao is a hunter-nin who's job it is to gather intel. He knew about Ao having transplanted Shisui's eye, but why would everyone know that this happened? Why would they have allowed him to just walk into the Kage Summit unquestioned if they knew about it? There's only evidence that Shisui's genjutsu prowess is famous.

@ bold #1 lol what?

@ bold #2 because of multiple uses of kotoamatsukami :bdpf:

Used it to say that your completely-out-of-nowhere belief that Shisui intended to use Kotoamatsukami on everyone is completely out of nowhere and can easily be wrong. Since there's no proof anywhere that this is the case. None of my arguments rely on the anime. And you yourself wanted to show an anime clip first, but then you dropped it for whatever reason.

you used anime filler to try and pass of shisui using kotoamatsukami on fugaku uchiha as fact.

anything you type from now on regarding evidence is now automatically bullshit unless coming directly from the manga :bdpf:

Your arguments rely on your imagination.

you stole my line boy :bdpf:

Kotoamatsukami is detectable, and Shisui failed because it is not only detectable, but has a startup time.

fanfiction...also if itachi's genric use of genjutsu is undetecable by sensors how is kotoamatsukami detectable? :bdpf:

Shisui never successfully casted Kotoamatsukami during the entire time we saw him in the manga. This is manga fact, because Danzo still enacted the Uchiha Clan Massacre.

thanks for admitting that shisui did not have 10 yr cooldowns :bdpf:

Kotoamatsukami has ten year cooldowns. He can use it twice within ten years because it has two eyes. He used it once at some point, and Danzo/Hiruzen at least knew about it, and at some point Ao found out about it, and then he planned to use it once more.

@ bold fanfiction :sdo: also this doesnt explain why shisui tried to use it on the uchiha since 10 YR COOLDOWNS APPARENTLY EXIST lololololololololololololololol

He failed because it has a start up time, as proven by the below:

fanfiction :sdo: also it's undetectable you ****ing retard :bdpf:

Kotoamatsukami requires chakra to activate, just like every dojutsu.

doesn't stop people from not knowing if they are under kotoamatsukami which means either it has a rapid fast start up time or kishi is a ****ing liar :sdo:

Therefore, Kotoamatsukami can be sensed prior to activation, because it requires a chakra buildup. What activated Kotoamatsukami was the chakra build up that Itachi made, because the crows cannot just cast dojutsu without having a chakra source, and that chakra source is Itachi. Just like the Amaterasu that Itachi programmed into Sasuke's eyes required a chakra build up from Sasuke to activate.

danzo is not a sensor :sdo: how many weak ass uchiha fodder (compared to genius shisui) is a sensor :sdo: how the **** can shisui fail at using kotoamatsukami when none of the uchiha would think he'd turn against them :sdo: :sdo: :sdo:

So for Shisui to perform Kotoamatsukami, there must be a chakra source. And Shisui would be this chakra source. So he must build up chakra, which would be sensed, and therefore, Kotoamatsukami can be sensed during its casting, because what Nagato sensed was Kotoamatsukami, since no other dojutsu was cast. And we know that Itachi can cast dojutsu remotely, since Sharingan do not have to be placed in the eye sockets to activate their dojutsu. This is demonstrated by his ability to cast Tsukuyomi from his crows or Danzo's ability to cast Izanagi from the Sharingans in his arms.

which sensors "sensed" shisui using an undetectable genjutsu building up in his eye and sniffed him out? :sdo:

If you still don't understand, Itachi provided the chakra to Shisui's eye, which casted Kotoamatsukami. This is the same way anyone casting Kotoamatsukami would have to do it. The only difference is where the eye is.

nagato sensed itachi's chakra build up which you admitted which means I'm right and you're wrong (which you admitted)

So no matter who is casting Kotoamatsukami:
It requires a chakra buildup that will be sensed.
Therefore, Kotoamatsukami can be sensed, even if Shisui is the one casting it.

which sensors ****ing sensed shisui using kotoamatsukami?...DANZO IS NOT A SENSOR...NEITHER IS FUGAKU

 

[Claymantan]

Doing this out of order to make this shorter:

@ bold #1 lol what?

Typo; I meant that Danzo transplanted Shisui's eye.

@ bold #2 because of multiple uses of kotoamatsukami :bdpf:

"strongest genjutsu user" is what killer b stated...RIGHT AFTER he said that itachi said shisui can cast the "strongest genjutsu" which would be kotoamatsukami.

now tell me how the **** is shisui's gneric use of sharingan genjutsu better than ITACHI'S...a guy who's genjutsu cannot be detected by sensors?...lololololol

Shisui was the best genjutsu user at the time he was alive. Itachi was never stated to surpass him until after Shisui was dead. Shisui didn't need Kotoamatsukami to become famous, and Kotoamatsukami was not famous. He just had to be better than all the Uchiha who were alive during his time.

Killer Bee only knew of Shisui's genjutsu prowess, which is the only thing Shisui was actually stated to be famous for. There is no scan saying he is famous for Kotoamatsukami. Only Itachi, Danzo, Hiruzen, and Ao displayed knowledge about Kotoamatsukami. You realized this, and are backpedaling by trying to claim that the only way Shisui could have become famous was with Kotoamatsukami, but it's not the case.

because he is the sole reason why you are wrong and you know it :bdpf: ps he left after trying (and failing) to convince his clansmen DISPITE BEING THEIR LEADER.

The two situations aren't comparable, and it doesn't matter, because Shisui doesn't have a choice: He can't cast Kotoamatsukami with one eye more than once a decade. His only option is to use it on Fugaku. He never expressed that he even thought of using it on the whole clan anyway.

you used anime filler to try and pass of shisui using kotoamatsukami on fugaku uchiha as fact.

You tried to argue this with no proof, and that puts your argument on the same level as filler:

you think stopping fugaku would stop ALL THE UCHIHA????...why did madara uchiha leave the village?...because he had the entire clan under his will and control correct?...the existance of itachi and shisui is LIVING PROOF that shisui needed to stop ALL OF THEM (who wanted to revolt) not just ****ing FUGAKU...DUMBASS...taking out fugaku is not stopping the uchiha from trying to fight the entire village.

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Your claim that Shisui thought he could use Kotoamatsukami on every Uchiha is just no more valid than even filler.

All these wrong claims about Kotoamatsukami being undetectable when I clearly showed that Nagato detected it:

...also if itachi's genric use of genjutsu is undetecable by sensors how is kotoamatsukami detectable? :bdpf:

fanfiction :sdo: also it's undetectable you ****ing retard :bdpf:

which sensors "sensed" shisui using an undetectable genjutsu building up in his eye and sniffed him out? :sdo:

nagato sensed itachi's chakra build up which you admitted which means I'm right and you're wrong (which you admitted)

which sensors ****ing sensed shisui using kotoamatsukami?...DANZO IS NOT A SENS[OR...NEITHER IS FUGAKU

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Kotoamatsukami is detectable because Kotoamatsukami was detected. Manga fact.

There is no such thing as a dojutsu that has different properties depending on the wielder. Kotoamatsukami is the same for everyone. Just like Amaterasu is Amaterasu no matter who uses it and Kamui is Kamui no matter who uses it. So since Kotoamatsukami was sensed, everyone who uses Kotoamatsukami will be sensed casting it by sensors. During this (admittedly short) time, they can try to prevent Shisui from completing the casting.

thanks for admitting that shisui did not have 10 yr cooldowns :bdpf:

@ bold fanfiction :sdo: also this doesnt explain why shisui tried to use it on the uchiha since 10 YR COOLDOWNS APPARENTLY EXIST lololololololololololololololol

I didn't. Shisui had ten year cooldowns. That's why he never used it, because casting it means he wouldn't be able to use it again for a long time. Also, thanks for admitting that he never casted it on Danzo, because it wasn't active in the only manga panel you provided this entire debate, because none of your claims have manga scans to back them up.

doesn't stop people from not knowing if they are under kotoamatsukami which means either it has a rapid fast start up time or kishi is a ****ing liar :sdo:

danzo is not a sensor :sdo: how many weak ass uchiha fodder (compared to genius shisui) is a sensor :sdo: how the **** can shisui fail at using kotoamatsukami when none of the uchiha would think he'd turn against them :sdo: :sdo: :sdo:

I've been arguing that sensors can sense Kotoamatsukami being casted.

And let's go back to something you gave up on: Hashirama's cells allowed Danzo to use Kotoamatsukami more efficiently than Shisui could possibly have been able to, just like having Senju DNA makes Izanagi more effective than any Uchiha can perform it on their own. If Danzo couldn't spam Kotoamatsukami, Shisui, without the benefit of Hashi cells, surely could not, and two MS definitely does not decrease Kotoamatsukami cooldown by 350,000%.

 

[gerizzyYMcrew]

Typo; I meant that Danzo transplanted Shisui's eye.

and?

Shisui was the best genjutsu user at the time he was alive. Itachi was never stated to surpass him until after Shisui was dead. Shisui didn't need Kotoamatsukami to become famous, and Kotoamatsukami was not famous. He just had to be better than all the Uchiha who were alive during his time.

you ****ing liar...ao decribed the effects of kotoamatsukami PERFECTLY...how the hell would ao know about kotoamatsukami if he did not witness the jutsu directly?....either:

1. shisui used koto a lot during his lifetime and there is no 10 yr ****ing cooldowns.

2. shosui used koto in front of ao THEREFORE NEGATING the possibility of 10 yr cooldowns.

Killer Bee only knew of Shisui's genjutsu prowess, which is the only thing Shisui was actually stated to be famous for. There is no scan saying he is famous for Kotoamatsukami. Only Itachi, Danzo, Hiruzen, and Ao displayed knowledge about Kotoamatsukami. You realized this, and are backpedaling by trying to claim that the only way Shisui could have become famous was with Kotoamatsukami, but it's not the case.

^^^ this is you bullshitting because you know the jutsu being referenced is kotoamatsukami...shisui's used of generic genjutsu ****ing FAILED against danzo...the same people in this thread that tried to claim it was kotoamatsukami...lololololololol

is shisui's genric genjutsu undetectable by sensors?...if shisui's generic genjutsu is what is famous then how the **** did ao immediately jump to the conclusion that it was kotoamatsukami?...

last time I checked due to itachi's genjutsu prowess ao did not immediately jump to the use of tsukuyomi...you taking manga statements out of context now mr. quakes?...lolololololol

killer b= shisui of the body flicker...the strongest genjutsu user of the leaf.

itachi= shisui can use the strongest genjutsu called kotoamatsukami.

^^^ one stated right after another...a 5 yr old child can put 2 and 2 together...only those in denial cannot.

The two situations aren't comparable, and it doesn't matter, because Shisui doesn't have a choice: He can't cast Kotoamatsukami with one eye more than once a decade. His only option is to use it on Fugaku. He never expressed that he even thought of using it on the whole clan anyway.

@ bold fantiction...also using kotoamatsukami on only the leader is not stopping a clan full of disrespected butthurt brunettes who have a history of turning on their leader.

You tried to argue this with no proof, and that puts your argument on the same level as filler:

nice job of trying to justify your flawed and shitty ass attempt at passing off anime filler as canon proof

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Your claim that Shisui thought he could use Kotoamatsukami on every Uchiha is just no more valid than even filler.

nope it isnt..."I tried using kotoamatsukami to stop the coup" = every uchiha hit with genjutsu >>>>>>> ****ING FILLER BULLSHIT

All these wrong claims about Kotoamatsukami being undetectable when I clearly showed that Nagato detected it:

you mean the scan of nagato detecting the build up of chakra in itachi's right eye which he thought was going to produce amaterasu?

scans of itachi's right eye producing kotoamatsukami and you are right...if not then stick to your funny ass fanfiction :bdpf:

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Kotoamatsukami is detectable because Kotoamatsukami was detected. Manga fact.

see above comment :bdpf:

There is no such thing as a dojutsu that has different properties depending on the wielder. Kotoamatsukami is the same for everyone. Just like Amaterasu is Amaterasu no matter who uses it and Kamui is Kamui no matter who uses it. So since Kotoamatsukami was sensed, everyone who uses Kotoamatsukami will be sensed casting it by sensors. During this (admittedly short) time, they can try to prevent Shisui from completing the casting.

which fodder uchiha prevented shisui from using his undetectable genjutsu?...go ahead and tell me...LET ME GUESS...it was non sensor ninja danzo correct?...lololololololololololol

I didn't. Shisui had ten year cooldowns. That's why he never used it, because casting it means he wouldn't be able to use it again for a long time. Also, thanks for admitting that he never casted it on Danzo, because it wasn't active in the only manga panel you provided this entire debate, because none of your claims have manga scans to back them up.

@ bold nice fanfiction...also shisui admitted he tried and failed to use kotoamatsukami in the manga panel I linked which means 2 things.

1. shisui tried to use kotoamatsukami on uchiha THEREFORE PROVING THAT NO ****ING 10 YR COOLDOWNS EXIST.

2. itachi's generic use of genjutsu is stronger than kotoamatsukami which is undetectable to victems...lololololololol

I've been arguing that sensors can sense Kotoamatsukami being casted.

which "fodder ninjas to genius shisui" or non-sensor danzo tried to neg kotoamatsukami's undetectable use?

And let's go back to something you gave up on: Hashirama's cells allowed Danzo to use Kotoamatsukami more efficiently than Shisui could possibly have been able to, just like having Senju DNA makes Izanagi more effective than any Uchiha can perform it on their own. If Danzo couldn't spam Kotoamatsukami, Shisui, without the benefit of Hashi cells, surely could not, and two MS definitely does not decrease Kotoamatsukami cooldown by 350,000%.

by your dumbass logic itachi should have 10 yr cooldowns on time-altering tsukuyomi :sdo: I WONDER WHY HE DOES NOT

 

[Claymantan]

and?

And nothing, it was just a typo.

you ****ing liar...ao decribed the effects of kotoamatsukami PERFECTLY...how the hell would ao know about kotoamatsukami if he did not witness the jutsu directly?....either:

1. shisui used koto a lot during his lifetime and there is no 10 yr ****ing cooldowns.

2. shosui used koto in front of ao THEREFORE NEGATING the possibility of 10 yr cooldowns.

Or he just knows about it because Danzo owned Kotoamatsukami for a solid decade, or he's a hunter-nin and did intel on Konoha.

^^^ this is you bullshitting because you know the jutsu being referenced is kotoamatsukami...shisui's used of generic genjutsu ****ing FAILED against danzo...the same people in this thread that tried to claim it was kotoamatsukami...lololololololol

is shisui's genric genjutsu undetectable by sensors?...if shisui's generic genjutsu is what is famous then how the **** did ao immediately jump to the conclusion that it was kotoamatsukami?...

last time I checked due to itachi's genjutsu prowess ao did not immediately jump to the use of tsukuyomi...you taking manga statements out of context now mr. quakes?...lolololololol

killer b= shisui of the body flicker...the strongest genjutsu user of the leaf.

itachi= shisui can use the strongest genjutsu called kotoamatsukami.

^^^ one stated right after another...a 5 yr old child can put 2 and 2 together...only those in denial cannot.

Explained some of this above. Ao jumped to the conclusion that it was Kotoamatsukami because Mifune was acting otherwise normal and Koto is the most likely explanation. No one else displays knowledge of Kotoamatsukami besides Ao, Danzo, and Itachi. Don't know why you brought up Danzo; Shisui is still the best genjutsu user of his time. Itachi surpassed Shisui over the course of ten years.

@ bold fantiction...also using kotoamatsukami on only the leader is not stopping a clan full of disrespected butthurt brunettes who have a history of turning on their leader.

It's his only option.

it isnt..."I tried using kotoamatsukami to stop the coup" = every uchiha hit with genjutsu >>>>>>> ****ING FILLER BULLSHIT

The quote, and what you're saying the quote means, are two different things. Your opinion is the equivalent of filler unless the quote actually says what you're trying to say it says.

you mean the scan of nagato detecting the build up of chakra in itachi's right eye which he thought was going to produce amaterasu?

scans of itachi's right eye producing kotoamatsukami and you are right...if not then stick to your funny ass fanfiction :bdpf:

Itachi produced Kotoamatsukami the same way he produces Tsukuyomi. Kotoamatsukami can be sensed.

which fodder uchiha prevented shisui from using his undetectable genjutsu?...go ahead and tell me...LET ME GUESS...it was non sensor ninja danzo correct?...lololololololololololol

He never casted Kotoamatsukami; otherwise, I don't know what you're referring to.

@ bold nice fanfiction...also shisui admitted he tried and failed to use kotoamatsukami in the manga panel I linked which means 2 things.

1. shisui tried to use kotoamatsukami on uchiha THEREFORE PROVING THAT NO ****ING 10 YR COOLDOWNS EXIST.

2. itachi's generic use of genjutsu is stronger than kotoamatsukami which is undetectable to victems...lololololololol

@ Bold No he didn't. He never casted it, because there was never shown to be an effect of Kotoamatsukami on anyone. Danzo either interrupted his attempt, because Kotoamatsukami has a casting period, or Shisui never got to actually cast it. "Tried" is ambiguous, and could mean he was going to go find Fugaku but was intercepted. There are other interpretations besides your singular biased one.

which "fodder ninjas to genius shisui" or non-sensor danzo tried to neg kotoamatsukami's undetectable use?

Proved Kotoamatsukami can be sensed by sensors. Requires a chakra build up --> no such thing as a chakra buildup that can't be sensed by a sensor in the manga, unless it's S/T like Limbo or Kamui. Actually, the only feat of "hiding chakra" is in the novels. There is no evidence that Kotoamatsukami is instant, and no evidence that it can avert needing a chakra buildup.

by your dumbass logic itachi should have 10 yr cooldowns on time-altering tsukuyomi :sdo: I WONDER WHY HE DOES NOT

Because that's not how Tsukuyomi works, just like that's not how Kamui works, just like that's not how Amaterasu works. Only Kotoamatsukami has a big limitation on how often you can use it. These other dojutsus don't have such limitations, even if the person using the dojutsu isn't even an Uchiha.

Let's not forget that Itachi was a highly competent dojutsu user and would have known the best out of anyone, including Shisui, how often Kotoamatsukami could be used. And you ignored the Hashi stuff because you can't disprove it.

 

[gerizzyYMcrew]

And nothing, it was just a typo.

this might be my last comment for you since you know...I have a life and I've got shit to do...lolololol

Or he just knows about it because Danzo owned Kotoamatsukami for a solid decade, or he's a hunter-nin and did intel on Konoha.

nobody knew danzo had kotoamatsukami...nobody...and itachi had shisui's other eye...try again.

Explained some of this above. Ao jumped to the conclusion that it was Kotoamatsukami because Mifune was acting otherwise normal and Koto is the most likely explanation. No one else displays knowledge of Kotoamatsukami besides Ao, Danzo, and Itachi. Don't know why you brought up Danzo; Shisui is still the best genjutsu user of his time. Itachi surpassed Shisui over the course of ten years.

thanks for proving me right.

It's his only option.

oh yea?...he should have known it was going to fail then

The quote, and what you're saying the quote means, are two different things. Your opinion is the equivalent of filler unless the quote actually says what you're trying to say it says.

nice shitty ass logic there sherlock...my source is CANON and yours is NON CANON...even if the text is left up to interpretation your source is AUTOMATIALLY IRRELEVANT...anyone with a brain knows this (except for you apparently.)

since you like to use non canon sources as evidence then whatever you type from now on is irrelevant right?

Itachi produced Kotoamatsukami the same way he produces Tsukuyomi. Kotoamatsukami can be sensed.

@ bold by whom?...ao sense shisui's chakra flowing thru danzo from shisui's eye...nagato sensed the build up of chakra in itachi's right eye and assumed it was amaterasu (seeing as how nagato knows all about itachi's arsenal)...where are you getting this fanfic?

@ Bold No he didn't.

because whatever you type is automatically relevant correct?...ps yes he did

Proved Kotoamatsukami can be sensed by sensors.

nice fiction...you proved sensors can sense chakra...wooooow what a huge discovery :sdo:

Because that's not how Tsukuyomi works, just like that's not how Kamui works, just like that's not how Amaterasu works. Only Kotoamatsukami has a big limitation on how often you can use it.

BULLSHIT...kamui's haxxed powers alone should be 10 yr cooldowns...tsukuyomi can ALTER TIME AND SPACE...100 YRS CAN SEEM LIKE 10 SECONDS...and not even a 1 yr ****ing cooldown?...lololololololol **** OUTTA HERE

Let's not forget that Itachi was a highly competent dojutsu user and would have known the best out of anyone, including Shisui, how often Kotoamatsukami could be used. And you ignored the Hashi stuff because you can't disprove it.

@ bold that's an automtic no since itachi was not the original owner of shisui's eyes...shisui did not leave him instructions on how to use kotoamatsukami before jumping off the cliff...or it's side effects and there are 10 yr cooldown periods so he can't test it out...this statement is a pile of pure speculation trash.

also "ignoring the hashi stuff"?...lololololol did shisui ever inject hashirama's cells into himself as the original owners of his eyeballs to speed up a cooling period?...or is all the proof you have from UNORIGINAL EYE OWNERS??? lolololololololol

whelp it was fun conversing with you...but I gotta smoke a demo and go take care of business enjoy yourself mr. quakes

 

[Guy Fawkes]

Or he just knows about it because Danzo owned Kotoamatsukami for a solid decade, or he's a hunter-nin and did intel on Konoha.

This reasoning alone proves you're biased. Ao obviously had a close encounter with Shisui, but not direct contact. He was able to witness the genius of KA. Thats why when AO is talking about Danzo using KA he states; ANYONE under the genjustsu wouldnt know they were under its control. Further proven because AY had to ask Danzo if he was using it at the Hokage summit.


AO then says you cant fool these eyes, thats because the byakugan can see his chakra passageways. AO was able to detect through Danzos chakra system that he was using a genjutsu and it was controlling the Mifune. Common sense allows us to argue that he knew what specific jutsu it was, meaning he witnessed it first hand before, othrewise how would he know this was the famed jutsu of shisui uchiha? Just because he can see danzos chakra system? Just because you can see chakra, you cant know what specfic jutsu someone is going to use unless you are familar with their skill set, maybe jutsu nature (genjutsu, ninjutsu) but not the specific kind of jutsu. This negates the ten year cooldown theory (at least for shisui), because he obviously used it in encounters with foregn ninjas.

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He says that his eye saw through the illusion used on Yagura. which madara casted, its obvious it wasnt KA, otherwise obito would have this ability, and would not have been upset danzo took it with him. So even though it was similar he knew, this jutsu at the Hokage summit, was shisui specifically. How? Because he encountered the guy, witnessed the jutsu and remembered it.

 

[kimb]

Kotoamatsukami

 

[Claymantan]

This reasoning alone proves you're biased. Ao obviously had a close encounter with Shisui, but not direct contact. He was able to witness the genius of KA. Thats why when AO is talking about Danzo using KA on the 4th mizukage he states; ANYONE under the genjustsu wouldnt know they were under its control. Further proven because AY had to ask Danzo if he was using it at the Hokage summit.

AO then says you cant fool these eyes, thats because the byakugan can see his chakra passageways. AO was able to detect through Danzos chakra system that he was using a genjutsu and it was controlling the Mizukage. Common sense allows us to argue that he knew what specific jutsu it was, meaning he witnessed it first hand before, othrewise how would he know this was the famed jutsu of shisui uchiha? Just because he can see danzos chakra system? Just because you can see chakra, you cant know what specfic jutsu someone is going to use unless you are familar with their skill set, maybe jutsu nature (genjutsu, ninjutsu) but not the specific kind of jutsu. This negates the ten year cooldown theory (at least for shisui), because he obviously used it in encounters with foregn ninjas.

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He says that his eye saw through the illusion used on Yagura. which madara casted, its obvious it wasnt KA, otherwise obito would have this ability, and would not have been upset danzo took it with him. So even though it was similar he knew, this jutsu at the Hokage summit, was shisui specifically. How? Because he encountered the guy, witnessed the jutsu and remembered it.

What are you arguing? His Byakugan saw that the Fourth Mizukage was under a genjutsu. But he never witnessed KA. He says he knows Danzo was using Shisui's eye because he witnessed Shisui's chakra color. That's all he needs to know that it's Shisui. He never needs to witness KA himself, he just needs to know what it is.

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He literally says he fought Shisui. He doesn't say "I saw KA." Shisui's chakra color would be visible without using KA.

If he knows that Danzo is casting some kind of genjutsu, and he sees Shisui's chakra color inside of him, what other logical explanation would there have been but KA? All he needs to know that Danzo is using KA is:

A) To have seen Shisui's chakra when he encountered him.
B) To have some knowledge of what KA is, and he doesn't need to witness KA himself to know what it is.
C) Even if he had witnessed it, that only shows that Shisui ever used KA once in the ten year period, since he was never said to use it again. So it doesn't break the timeline.
D) There is no evidence that Kotoamatsukami is famous. Only Ao, Hiruzen, Danzo, and Itachi know about it. Everyone else only expresses knowing that Shisui was famous for shunshin and genjutsu.

 

[Guy Fawkes]

This reasoning alone proves you're biased. Ao obviously had a close encounter with Shisui, but not direct contact. He was able to witness the genius of KA. Thats why when AO is talking about Danzo using KA he states; ANYONE under the genjustsu wouldnt know they were under its control. Further proven because AY had to ask Danzo if he was using it at the Hokage summit.


AO then says you cant fool these eyes, thats because the byakugan can see his chakra passageways. AO was able to detect through Danzos chakra system that he was using a genjutsu and it was controlling the Mifune. Common sense allows us to argue that he knew what specific jutsu it was, meaning he witnessed it first hand before, othrewise how would he know this was the famed jutsu of shisui uchiha? Just because he can see danzos chakra system? Just because you can see chakra, you cant know what specfic jutsu someone is going to use unless you are familar with their skill set, maybe jutsu nature (genjutsu, ninjutsu) but not the specific kind of jutsu. This negates the ten year cooldown theory (at least for shisui), because he obviously used it in encounters with foregn ninjas.

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He says that his eye saw through the illusion used on Yagura. which madara casted, its obvious it wasnt KA, otherwise obito would have this ability, and would not have been upset danzo took it with him. So even though it was similar he knew, this jutsu at the Hokage summit, was shisui specifically. How? Because he encountered the guy, witnessed the jutsu and remembered it.

I just realized he even remembers what shisui looked liked his face was the only face in the panel. So no one else is remembering shisui, but AO. How can you see someones face you never met? Or only heard about, shisui is a ninja, I am sure there is no pictures of him. And even when he is remembering him, the guy has his MS activated.

 

[Claymantan]

I just realized he even remembers what shisui looked liked his face was the only face in the panel. So no one else is remembering shisui, but AO. How can you see someones face you never met? Or only heard about, shisui is a ninja, I am sure there is no pictures of him. And even when he is remembering him, the guy has his MS activated.

Okay? I literally said he met Shisui. He fought him.

Never said he used it on Ao. Also, he didn't. The anime shows the fight, and he never uses Kotoamatsukami.

Ao knows that Danzo transplanted Shisui's eye into his head, so how he found out about Kotoamatsukami is up in the air.

Also, I think maybe I was wrong about the anime even showing the fight. It might just show a flashback of Shisui too. I need to double-check.

Anime is filler anyway, but I don't need the anime to make my argument. My argument is only that Ao never saw Shisui use Kotoamatsukami, and that it is not canon that Shisui ever used Kotoamatuskami more than once prior to the Uchiha Clan Massacre. Since he never canonically used it more than twice, or attempted to use it more than twice, which would break the timeline, the timeline is not broken, and you can't use this as a reason to say that Kotoamatsukami has lower than a ten-year cooldown.

No one was able to show that Kotoamatsukami was used more than once. No one was able to show that Kotoamatsukami was famous without reaching hard and making it out like Bee said something other than "Shisui was really good at genjutsu."

You guys need to stop misframing my argument in order to try and make it look wrong. I've never been denying that Ao met Shisui.

 

[Guy Fawkes]

Okay? I literally said he met Shisui. He fought him.

MS is activated. why? Because he KA blitzed. otherwise why is he remembering him with it activated? Shisui is known for his body flicker, AND KA Danzo is useing KA which is why Ao is saying that he's using Shisui KA. If he was not using Ka, would he still detect Shisui chakra? no. why? because danzo chakra/dna is mixed with senju/ and allot of other uchiha as well as his own. too many signatures, so i bet you only see individual signatures when another individual jutsu is used (senju, or other uchiha)

1) he recognizes Ka.
2) he recognizes Shisui Chakra
3) he knows what shisui looks like along with what his MS looked like.

and yet you still argue that Ao never witnessed the Ka first hand by Shisui himself. Suggesting he fought him, is familar with KA, knows KA is shisui tech. But never witness shisui use it?

 

[Claymantan]

MS is activated. why? Because he KA blitzed. otherwise why is he remembering him with it activated? Shisui is known for his body flicker, AND KA Danzo is useing KA which is why Ao is saying that he's using Shisui KA. If he was not using Ka, would he still detect Shisui chakra? no. why? because danzo chakra/dna is mixed with senju/ and allot of other uchiha as well as his own. too many signatures, so i bet you only see individual signatures when another individual jutsu is used (senju, or other uchiha)

1) he recognizes Ka.
2) he recognizes Shisui Chakra
3) he knows what shisui looks like along with what his MS looked like.

and yet you still argue that Ao never witnessed the Ka first hand by Shisui himself. Suggesting he fought him, is familar with KA, knows KA is shisui tech. But never witness shisui use it?

I'm not "suggesting he fought him."

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Again, active MS =/= active dojutsu. There are scans of Madara and even Izuna having his MS active in the past too, but without Susanoo or any other dojutsu happening.

And you're

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He sees the chakra colors in Danzo's arm too; Danzo's not using the Sharingan in those arms, though.

I said this earlier:

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Can you show me the scan where it says everyone knew about Kotoamatsukami? It wouldn't have taken much for ANBU/Root/Danzo to know about it, and by extension Hiruzen. Shisui himself told Itachi about it.

He achieved fame for his genjutsu prowess. I don't know if he achieved fame specifically for Kotoamatsukami, but if you show me the scan, I'll change my mind.

Ao only talks about

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As a hunter-nin who's pretty old, he'd have probably learned about Kotoamatsukami in the same way that Danzo and Hiruzen had.

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But that doesn't mean he'd ever witnessed Kotoamatsukami himself.

No one else really says anything indicating that they even knew what Kotoamatsukami was.

And even if he used KA on Ao (you have no scan to prove this, only spec), that doesn't break the timeline unless you can show that he used it either after Hiruzen and Danzo already knew about it, or he used it more than once prior to the Uchiha Clan Massacre. Because Kotoamatsukami was not a famous jutsu.

Again, Shisui can use Kotoamatsukami twice per ten years (once per eye). Only breaks timeline if he uses it more than twice, or intended to use it more than twice.

 

[Guy Fawkes]

I'm not "suggesting he fought him."

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Again, active MS =/= active dojutsu. There are scans of Madara and even Izuna having his MS active in the past too, but without Susanoo or any other dojutsu happening.

And you're

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He sees the chakra colors in Danzo's arm too; Danzo's not using the Sharingan in those arms, though.

I said this earlier:



And even if he used KA on Ao (no scan to prove this, only spec), that doesn't break the timeline unless you can show that he used it either after Hiruzen and Danzo already knew about it, or he used it more than once prior to the Uchiha Clan Massacre. Because Kotoamatsukami was not a famous jutsu.

Again, Shisui can use Kotoamatsukami twice per ten years (once per eye).

where is the scan that says that ? I'll wait? there isnt any, you're the one thats speculating.

So you're suggesting that Ao is talking about a MS tech, remembering shisui with MS activated, but he never witnessed him use Ka, but he literally knows everything about it. Delusions.

And how am I ignoring manga facts. He is still talking about Shsui's chakra. No one elses. he said i'll never forget that color. so Shisui's chakra, is the signature he sees and feels at the present. he says the color in his shoulder, his arm and right eye. Shisuis signature is just that strong. if he felt muliple chakra signatures. he would have said that. he was only aware of Shisuis because he recognized KA. which means .

1) he could have used KA, a jutsu that can be used on an entire clan of doujutsu/genjutsu gensius(not all, but most). otherwise why would his character suggest he could do this, or attempted to? Itachi was sure he could defeat his entire clan, and he did. So if Shisui believed he could Ka his entire clan, im sure he could have. just cause fodder danzo is incapable of this despite having senju Dna is just further, he was basically fodder.

2) he used Ka on fodder like Ao, a ninja from a different country! who knows about Ka, and I am sure has told others(officials, kage, elite nin) of Ka otherwise that would make him...stupid.

3) why would you allow the enemy to witness a technique that can only be used twice every ten years, if it wasnt war oriented? Ao did not say they met in open warfare. So obviously they met up with each other on clandestine missions. Why waste this tech on Ao? Simple. Because he could more often than twice every ten years. maybe it was just twice a day. otherwise why give him this tech at all, it seems backwards.

 

[Claymantan]

where is the scan that says that ? I'll wait? there isnt any, you're the one thats speculating.

So you're suggesting that Ao is talking about a MS tech, remembering shisui with MS activated, but he never witnessed him use Ka, but he literally knows everything about it. Delusions.

Everything about it? You're acting like Kotoamatsukami is a very difficult and complex technique to understand. All someone would have had to tell him is "Kotoamatsukami allows people to control minds." How he found out about Kotoamatsukami is not canon. Even if he witnessed it himself this does not break the timeline.

And how am I ignoring manga facts. He is still talking about Shsui's chakra. No one elses. he said i'll never forget that color. so Shisui's chakra, is the signature he sees and feels at the present. he says the color in his shoulder, his arm and right eye. Shisuis signature is just that strong. if he felt muliple chakra signatures. he would have said that. he was only aware of Shisuis because he recognized KA. which means .

So, what, Shisui's chakra is colorless and invisible unless he uses Kotoamatsukami/MS? This literally flies in the face of how the Byakugan works. There's no such thing as chakra that Byakugan can't sense, unless the opponent is using S/T like Limbo or Kamui.

1) he could have used KA, a jutsu that can be used on an entire clan of doujutsu/genjutsu gensius(not all, but most). otherwise why would his character suggest he could do this, or attempted to? Itachi was sure he could defeat his entire clan, and he did. So if Shisui believed he could Ka his entire clan, im sure he could have. just cause fodder danzo is incapable of this despite having senju Dna is just further, he was basically fodder.

You're jumping on this "Shisui planned to use Kotoamatsukami on every Uchiha conspirator" bandwagon too now? There's not a single scan where he indicates this. I've already demonstrated that there are alternative intentions, none of which are confirmed, so this is not canon.

By the way, I noticed that the thing you put in your OP about Kotoamatsukami being used on the entire Uchiha clan isn't even from the wiki; you added it in. XD

2) he used Ka on fodder like Ao, a ninja from a different country! who knows about Ka, and I am sure has told others(officials, kage, elite nin) of Ka otherwise that would make him...stupid.

Characters are stupid. Even if he told others about it - fine, theoretically, Kotoamatsukami could have potentially become well-known (even though this is not demonstrated and is not canon) because Ao witnessed it (which does not break the timeline, but is also not canon) and told everyone about it (which is not canon), then Shisui didn't become famous for using Kotoamatsukami multiple times, because he never used it multiple times in the manga (he has no canonical usage of Kotoamtasukami in the entire manga, except that he must have used it once at some unseen point).

Argument is that Shisui having a shorter cooldown than what is stated in the manga is not canon. The only way you can say that it is is by adding speculation to the manga.

Your argument relies on speculation. It is not canon that Shisui's Mangekyo has a faster cooldown

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. This is also the same scan where Itachi confirms that Senju DNA decreases the cooldown, which Shisui doesn't have anymore than Itachi does.

Anyway, as far as this scan of Shisui having MS active in Ao's memory goes (but this isn't key to my argument anyway, so I put it in spoilers):

Spoiler

Shisui's MS:

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Shisui's MS active in manga (without Kotoamatsukami being active, because this is literally impossible, since Danzo's behavior did not change):

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An anime image of

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just for comparison, since I don't think there's even a clear scan of him using 3T in the manga.

Shisui's Sharingan in the flashback (Open image in new tab to see better):

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It's not even clear that he has MS active. It's a low-quality scan. But the deep black of his MS isn't present. There's a large area of empty white space relative to the black commas, which is not how Shisui's MS normally looks (deep, continuous black, with a very small bit of white at the center, and then black at the center of that).

 

[shelke]

Okay, that took me a while to read. First of all, Ao never detected the Genjutsu. He simply sensed Shuisui's chakra and as Shisui was famous for KA, and Mifune was acting as Danzo wanted, he added two into two. This is made more explicit on the next page when he states why Shisui was famous:

Spoiler

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This isn't Genjutsu detection at all: but detection of a foreign chakra within the system, which would be Shisui's. Then we have Itachi's eye. It was Amaterasu's eye. As Itachi's always casts it with his right eye:

Spoiler

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This one is left up for debate, to be honest as Itachi had already shoved a programmed beak (pun intended) down Naruto's throat, so Itachi wasn't casting it himself. It was set to "react" to Itachi's eyes and so it did. I don't see any reason to debate any further, as KA was cast on Itachi va his crow; Itachi didn't cast KA at that time.

Now for the complicated part: Cool Down. Sihsui was 18 when he died. If the cool down is ten years and he used it against (or someone else) Ao, then he was 5 when he gained MS? Ao was a direct witness to it, which means he must have seen it in battle. The cool down doesn't seem to be 10 years. It won't be small as well ... probably few years? Honestly, this KA thing is a mess. He tried using it on Danzo, it failed.

He gave a used eye to Sasuke as Itachi claims that it "could not be used during cool down", yet it was usable in 8 years? It makes little sense. Hashirama cells also don't "enhance" anything, they simply reduce cool down or recharge times for Ninjutsu. Izanagi was modified by Orochimaru. The Cells simply gave him "more chakra" to use with them, as there is no way in ****ing hell he was handling an MS like that, let alone 10 Sharingan eyes on top of that.

This was made clear when Karin noted how each Izanagi usage was "plummeting" with each usage. Anyhow, that is my take on the situation. To me, KA is the best Jutsu from the list.

 

[Claymantan]

Okay, that took me a while to read. First of all, Ao never detected the Genjutsu. He simply sensed Shuisui's chakra and as Shisui was famous for KA, and Mifune was acting as Danzo wanted, he added two into two. This is made more explicit on the next page when he states why Shisui was famous:

Spoiler

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This isn't Genjutsu detection at all: but detection of a foreign chakra within the system, which would be Shisui's. Then we have Itachi's eye. It was Amaterasu's eye. As Itachi's always casts it with his right eye:

I don't disagree with this. My argument for Kotoamatsukami being detected is only based on Nagato's sensing of Itachi's chakra buildup. Never said Ao detected Kotoamatsukami, he just had a hunch, saw Shisui's chakra color, which he's canonically seen before, and put two and two together, like you said.

Spoiler

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This one is left up for debate, to be honest as Itachi had already shoved a programmed beak (pun intended) down Naruto's throat, so Itachi wasn't casting it himself. It was set to "react" to Itachi's eyes and so it did. I don't see any reason to debate any further, as KA was cast on Itachi va his crow; Itachi didn't cast KA at that time.

Even though it was programmed, which I admitted, doesn't it still require chakra to cast (e.g. when Sasuke's programmed eyes casted Amaterasu on Obito, it still drained his chakra

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)? Itachi's eye is bleeding at the same time that the crow is casting Kotoamatsukami, so to me, this means Itachi had to build up the chakra for the crow to cast Kotoamatsukami, and since Nagato sensed a chakra buildup, this should mean that before Kotoamatsukami is fully casted, it can be sensed via the chakra buildup that it seems to require.

Now for the complicated part: Cool Down. Sihsui was 18 when he died. If the cool down is ten years and he used it against (or someone else) Ao, then he was 5 when he gained MS? Ao was a direct witness to it, which means he must have seen it in battle. The cool down doesn't seem to be 10 years. It won't be small as well ... probably few years? Honestly, this KA thing is a mess. He tried using it on Danzo, it failed.

He gave a used eye to Sasuke as Itachi claims that it "could not be used during cool down", yet it was usable in 8 years? It makes little sense. Hashirama cells also don't "enhance" anything, they simply reduce cool down or recharge times for Ninjutsu. Izanagi was modified by Orochimaru. The Cells simply gave him "more chakra" to use with them, as there is no way in ****ing hell he was handling an MS like that, let alone 10 Sharingan eyes on top of that.

This was made clear when Karin noted how each Izanagi usage was "plummeting" with each usage. Anyhow, that is my take on the situation. To me, KA is the best Jutsu from the list.

I've been saying he can use Kotoamatsukami once with each eye (since they can obviously both cast Kotoamatsukami separately - both Danzo's Shisui eye and Itachi's Shisui eye use the same jutsu, instead of one eye having Amaterasu and one eye having Tsukuyomi like Itachi). So regardless of when he got it, he could have casted it on Ao once, and had a remaining cast to try to use during the Uchiha Clan Massacre. So I don't feel like him having used Kotoamatsukami at some point breaks the timeline.

And I agree that Senju DNA simply reduces the cooldown and provides more chakra to use jutsus. Since Shisui doesn't have Senju DNA, I can't imagine his Kotoamatsukami cooldown is anywhere near Danzo's (once a day). Thanks for elaborating on Izanagi. However,

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Thanks for sharing your opinion, I appreciate you reading through this mess of a thread. xD

 

[shelke]

I don't disagree with this. My argument for Kotoamatsukami being detected is only based on Nagato's sensing of Itachi's chakra buildup. Never said Ao detected Kotoamatsukami, he just had a hunch, saw Shisui's chakra color, which he's canonically seen before, and put two and two together, like you said.

I didn't say you stated so; I am merely giving my opinion on the thread as a whole.

Even though it was programmed, which I admitted, doesn't it still require chakra to cast (e.g. when Sasuke's programmed eyes casted Amaterasu on Obito, it still drained his chakra

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)? Itachi's eye is bleeding at the same time that the crow is casting Kotoamatsukami, so to me, this means Itachi had to build up the chakra for the crow to cast Kotoamatsukami, and since Nagato sensed a chakra buildup, this should mean that before Kotoamatsukami is fully casted, it can be sensed via the chakra buildup that it seems to require.

That is something very different: the programmed Amaterasu is using Sasuke, when in case of the crow, Itachi has already invested chakra into it in form of a crow. If Sasuke would have been in Itachi's place, whose chakra would it have used - as it was meant to be used for him? The crow also lies outside Itachi's body and functions as a separate chakra soruce, as they are created out of one to begin with.

We don't know what was happening. In my opinion, KA was cast to the fullest on Itachi, breaking his hold. Or it could simply be an eye sync. We don't even know what happens with KA is used by the original user, so this point is quite debatable.

I've been saying he can use Kotoamatsukami once with each eye (since they can obviously both cast Kotoamatsukami separately - both Danzo's Shisui eye and Itachi's Shisui eye use the same jutsu, instead of one eye having Amaterasu and one eye having Tsukuyomi like Itachi). So regardless of when he got it, he could have casted it on Ao once, and had a remaining cast to try to use during the Uchiha Clan Massacre. So I don't feel like him having used Kotoamatsukami at some point breaks the timeline.

Yes, obviouly as he has two MS, which means he has two KA usages. It does break the time line. Let's hypothteically assume that he cast one on Ao and gave that eye to Itachi. When did he cast it? He also tried casting it on Danzo and he stole his eye. Why did Danzo go to Orochaimru to bypass the cooldown period if that eye was functioning? It makes no sense.

And I agree that Senju DNA simply reduces the cooldown and provides more chakra to use jutsus. Since Shisui doesn't have Senju DNA, I can't imagine his Kotoamatsukami cooldown is anywhere near Danzo's (once a day). Thanks for elaborating on Izanagi. However,

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Thanks for sharing your opinion, I appreciate you reading through this mess of a thread. xD

Obviously, he cannot spam it, otherwise it would make no sense for Danzo to shove so much crap in hs body to use it. But, from the looks of it, he seems to be a "frequent" user. That is the original Izanagi or The Creation of All Things. The version Uchihas use is a "watered down" version of it. It's a genjutsu that "erases the results" of a battle.

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[Claymantan]

Obviously, he cannot spam it, otherwise it would make no sense for Danzo to shove so much crap in hs body to use it. But, from the looks of it, he seems to be a "frequent" user. That is the original Izanagi or The Creation of All Things. The version Uchihas use is a "watered down" version of it. It's a genjutsu that "erases the results" of a battle.

I can agree with this. At the very least, the claim that Shisui intended to use KA on every Uchiha conspirator remains extremely unlikely/is contradicted by manga events.

We don't know what was happening. In my opinion, KA was cast to the fullest on Itachi, breaking his hold. Or it could simply be an eye sync. We don't even know what happens with KA is used by the original user, so this point is quite debatable.

I'll let this one go, then. But I still feel like the claim that "Kotoamatsukami is undetectable," which the other posters were making, can't be taken at face value. I pretty much agree that Kotoamatsukami can't be sensed while it's in action, unless someone sees the chakra flow and puts two and two together. But as far as casting it goes: for them to act like it's so definite or ever even confirmed that Shisui's use of Kotoamatsukami doesn't have a casting time or that this casting time cannot be detected doesn't make sense to me. I was only ever arguing that the casting of Kotoamatsukami being undetectable isn't canon.

Yes, obviouly as he has two MS, which means he has two KA usages. It does break the time line. Let's hypothteically assume that he cast one on Ao and gave that eye to Itachi. When did he cast it? He also tried casting it on Danzo and he stole his eye. Why did Danzo go to Orochaimru to bypass the cooldown period if that eye was functioning? It makes no sense.

I don't understand how when Shisui hypothetically casted KA for Ao to witness it matters, since ten years definitely passed between the time Itachi received Shisui's eye and the time that the eye finally casted KA on Itachi (Sasuke was 7 or 8 at the time, right? By the time the KA is activated, Sasuke is 17).

As far as why Danzo would try to subvert the cooldown period, it's not like he immediately went to Orochimaru as soon as he got the eye, as far as I know. He could have experimented with KA and discovered the cooldown on his own. Alternatively, he already knew about the cooldown, just like he knew about Kotoamatsukami already, and simply decided that it was something he wanted to avert for his future use. But I feel like I don't perfectly understand the point you're making here.