You mean there is just no way in hell Doflamingo doesn't get fodderized by Luffy and Zoro? Doflamingo was getting his ass kicked by Luffy and Law everytime they were together(red hawk, gamma knife, jet stamp, etc) and that was Luffy without using g4. He stands no chance against Luffy and Zoro. Luffy by himself is barely weaker than Doflamingo. Adding someone as powerful as Zoro alongside him and he stands no chance. Only extremely biased or retarded people who don't deserve to be argued against could think otherwise. That's why i don't even bother in debates here nowadays
@bold 1 That's simply not true and was pretty well shown to not be the case. An unlimited G4 Luffy is comparable to Doffy but not current Luffy with his time limit.
Also you know a majority of the damage to Doffy came via Room's abilities right. That was one of my main points in posing the question, can the SH's overcome not having Room available and still defeat Doffy. Simply saying Zoro is enough doesn't explain how he would replace Room's ability to open Doffy up for hits.
I'm still not really sure who would win SH's or Doffy but I know for certain just Luffy & Zoro can't do it.
@bold 1 That's simply not true and was pretty well shown to not be the case. An unlimited G4 Luffy is comparable to Doffy but not current Luffy with his time limit.
Also you know a majority of the damage to Doffy came via Room's abilities right. That was one of my main points in posing the question, can the SH's overcome not having Room available and still defeat Doffy. Simply saying Zoro is enough doesn't explain how he would replace Room's ability to open Doffy up for hits.
I'm still not really sure who would win SH's or Doffy but I know for certain just Luffy & Zoro can't do it.
Yeah, that's complete nonsense to claim Luffy & Zoro would win when Luffy & Law (a duo who'll have a easier difficulty compared to the former because of Law's DF) barely won against Doffy. In fact, they've gotten lucky. It's clear that Doflamingo would win. He was able to comfortably handle pre-G4 Luffy, Law & Sanji so Zoro is no exception here. Zoro would get molested, in fact.
Doffy would win against the SH crew. He's a puppeteer, he can control the weaker trio and use them to attack one another or as a shield like he did with Bellamy before. Whenever they have their guard down, and they will when they see their nakama getting fatally wounded by a clone, Doffy can do some serious damage to the M3. Although, I believe a fight with the M3 vs Doflamingo would be a easier difficulty than Doffy vs SH's.
It's funny how people keep saying that Luffy and Law barely won/almost lost to Doflamingo when Doflamingo never fought them together. It's much easier to fight people in a gauntlet than fighting them together. If Luffy and Law fought Doffy together, he'd not even have lasted long, as demonstrated by the fact that everytime they were together, he was getting ass kicked(red hawk, gamma knife, jet stamp, etc) and that was even with Trebol and Bellamy's help when Luffy wasn't using g4. It's as if we read different battles or that people are so biased that they want to see only what they want to see.
Inb4 Doflamingo was weakened, so was Luffy. Oda made it clear. His g4 wasn't even at full power, which means that if he was at full power, the damage would even be greater. Now add in the fact that Zou Luffy should be stronger and the conclusion is even more clear. To be honest i won't be surprised if Zou Luffy is already stronger than him
@bold 1 That's simply not true and was pretty well shown to not be the case. An unlimited G4 Luffy is comparable to Doffy but not current Luffy with his time limit.
What the hell? G4 is vastly above Doflamingo. He didn't even damage Luffy while he was in g4 once and spent his entire time getting his ass kicked by it in the short timespan of the mode(roughly 10minutes) and during that short timespan he rendered Doflamingo almost KO'd after 4hits and was a punch away to finish off Doflamingo after the leo bazooka if he didn't mistake that Doflamingo was already finished and wasted time discussing with citizens. Timelimit G4 Luffy is enough to push Doflamingo close to his limits. The mode itself is vastly above him
Also you know a majority of the damage to Doffy came via Room's abilities right. That was one of my main points in posing the question, can the SH's overcome not having Room available and still defeat Doffy. Simply saying Zoro is enough doesn't explain how he would replace Room's ability to open Doffy up for hits.
Doesn't matter. Doflamingo never fought G4 while Law was alongside. G4 alone is so above him that he won't be able to do anything except continuously being on the defensive. Zoro will only wait for openings to finish him off
What the hell? G4 is vastly above Doflamingo. He didn't even damage Luffy while he was in g4 once and spent his entire time getting his ass kicked by it in the short timespan of the mode(roughly 10minutes) and during that short timespan he rendered Doflamingo almost KO'd after 4hits and was a punch away to finish off Doflamingo after the leo bazooka if he didn't mistake that Doflamingo was already finished and wasted time discussing with citizens. Timelimit G4 Luffy is enough to push Doflamingo close to his limits. The mode itself is vastly above him
Doesn't matter. Doflamingo never fought G4 while Law was alongside. G4 alone is so above him that he won't be able to do anything except continuously being on the defensive. Zoro will only wait for openings to finish him off
Do you remember how G4 worked? Luffy used his time in G4 to beat around Doffy, THEN IT RAN OUT and Doffy stood up and was heading to kill Luffy before the villagers held him up. They didn't get enough time and Doffy was about to kill Luffy before LAW used ROOM to save Luffy. No Law = Dead Luffy. G4 with it's time limit won't beat Doffy pure and simple. An unlimited time of G4 would. Unfortunately at DR he doesn't have unlimited G4.
Do you remember how G4 worked? Luffy used his time in G4 to beat around Doffy, THEN IT RAN OUT and Doffy stood up and was heading to kill Luffy before the villagers held him up. They didn't get enough time and Doffy was about to kill Luffy before LAW used ROOM to save Luffy. No Law = Dead Luffy. G4 with it's time limit won't beat Doffy pure and simple. An unlimited time of G4 would. Unfortunately at DR he doesn't have unlimited G4.
1- Do you remember Doflamingo state after the first round? Yes he could barely move, he was wobbling. That's how close to defeat he was
2- And do you remember why it ran out before finishing Doffy off during the first round? Yes because he spent his time discussing with citizens when Doffy was a punch away to be finished. Because plot wanted for Doflamingo to be a threat in order to show off king kong gun doesn't mean timelimit G4 wasn't enough. It was enough. The only reason it ended up not being the case which pushed Luffy to be saved while waiting for another round was plot induced stupidity from Luffy. The only thing it demonstrated was that they were so close in power than a simple mistake could have determined the victor, nothing else.
I admit though that Doflamingo was slightly superior to Luffy in dressrosa but i think Luffy pulled ahead in Zou
When they fought Doflamingo together, Doflamingo impaled Law through the chest as Luffy stood there watching and doing nothing like a dumbass, then got his face kicked in.
The tagteam of Law and Luffy was only ever effective because of the teleportive powers of Room. It's no longer funny, but just kinda sad that you refuse to acknowledge this point to continue spewing this rhetoric that Zoro and Luffy could accomplish the same as Law and Luffy.
It's much easier to fight people in a gauntlet than fighting them together. If Luffy and Law fought Doffy together, he'd not even have lasted long, as demonstrated by the fact that everytime they were together, he was getting ass kicked(red hawk, gamma knife, jet stamp, etc)
It should also be noted that during these moments, the attacks only landed because Doflamingo's guard was down. When Red Hawk landed, Doflamingo was just sitting down and wasn't even in a battle stance or position, and thought Luffy was attacking Law. When Gamma Knife landed, Doflamingo thought Law was dead. The attacks only landed due to a lapse in Doflamingo's judgement, not because the team of Law and Luffy were overwhelmingly stronger or better.
Let's also not forget that it was noted that the damage done to Doflamingo was superfluous. So no, even that can't be called Doffy getting his ass kicked. Jet Stamp was also delivered as Doflamingo's organs were still busted and he was unable to move properly. The fact of the matter is, Zoro cannot emulate what made these scenarios(two of which being irrelevant in the long run) possible.
and that was even with Trebol and Bellamy's help when Luffy wasn't using g4. It's as if we read different battles or that people are so biased that they want to see only what they want to see.
At the moments Red Hawk, Jet Stamp, and Gamma Knife hit, Trebol and Bellamy were doing nothing to aid Doflamingo. Bellamy was immobilized and just laying on the ground a quivering mess when Red Hawk hit, and straight up unconscious when GK and Jet Stamp were hit, and Trebol was just off to the side screaming about what was happening. Trebol adequately hindered Law for the Full Bright impalement, but a Shadow Joker can be used to accomplish the same task, seeing as Luffy tossed Trebol aside with a regular kick while a Shadow Joker swatted away a Jet Pistol.
Now add in the fact that Zou Luffy should be stronger and the conclusion is even more clear. To be honest i won't be surprised if Zou Luffy is already stronger than him
Ohhh so hypothetical powers come into play now? Well, hypothetically, Zou Luffy could be as strong as Akainu, seeing as Dressrosa Luffy was bruising Fujitora without Gear 4. I'm sure you'd agree to that claim, yes?
What the hell? G4 is vastly above Doflamingo. He didn't even damage Luffy while he was in g4 once and spent his entire time getting his ass kicked by it in the short timespan of the mode(roughly 10minutes)
Selective memory strikes again. Doflamingo starts using those giant bladed string masses to attack Luffy here.
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The next page says 20 minutes later
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King Riku's speech starts, and we see during it Luffy still dodging that same attacks and one of them even cutting and drawing blood from his body, with no further damage to Doflamingo indicated.
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At least 20 minutes of that fight consisted of Luffy dodging Doflamingo's Awakened threads. These few pages alone shows you are absolutely incorrect in saying Gear 4 lasted for 10 minutes only, that Doflamingo didn't injure Luffy once, and that Doflamingo spent the entire time getting his ass kicked.
and during that short timespan he rendered Doflamingo almost KO'd after 4hits and was a punch away to finish off Doflamingo after the leo bazooka if he didn't mistake that Doflamingo was already finished and wasted time discussing with citizens. Timelimit G4 Luffy is enough to push Doflamingo close to his limits. The mode itself is vastly above him
Luffy wasn't discussing shit with citizens. He was bouncing towards Doflamingo after a few seconds where he spoke to some and to himself about Bird Cage. If Luffy had spent those few seconds moving towards Doflamingo, he still wouldn't have gotten to him in time, as Gear 4th timed out a short whiles away from Doflamingo's actual location when Luffy was flying towards him.
Let's also take a brief moment to appreciate Bogard's contradiction.
So i'd just say that Luffy is barely weaker than Doflamingo. Doffy can't handle Luffy and Law together(he was getting his ass kicked everytime they were together through, red hawk, gamma knife, etc).
1- Do you remember Doflamingo state after the first round? Yes he could barely move, he was wobbling. That's how close to defeat he was
2- And do you remember why it ran out before finishing Doffy off during the first round? Yes because he spent his time discussing with citizens when Doffy was a punch away to be finished. Because plot wanted for Doflamingo to be a threat in order to show off king kong gun doesn't mean timelimit G4 wasn't enough. It was enough. The only reason it ended up not being the case which pushed Luffy to be saved while waiting for another round was plot induced stupidity from Luffy. The only thing it demonstrated was that they were so close in power than a simple mistake could have determined the victor, nothing else.
I admit though that Doflamingo was slightly superior to Luffy in dressrosa but i think Luffy pulled ahead in Zou
1. After the first round which came after Gamma Knife too, don't try and over look Luffy's first G4 burst wasn't against an unaffected Doffy. I don't care about the who had damage argument either but saying G4 Luffy is what put him in that state isn't 100% accurate as it wasn't solely G4 Luffy that did so much damage.
@bold how much stronger do you think he got from the end of DR to now when he's been spending the entire time recovering? The end of DR is the same Luffy as the one at Zou right now. Nothing's changed between those days. Directly after the fight Luffy was unconscious for a day or two then they sailed right to Zou where he's yet to fight anyone so exactly what is this difference between DR Luffy and Zou Luffy I see people bringing up?
If Akainu doesn't have Law's Devil Fruit, he loses to Doflamingo?
If Mihawk doesn't have Law's Devil Fruit, he loses to Doflamingo?
If Shanks doesn't have Law's Devil Fruit, he loses to Doflamingo?
Etc..
Etc..
Room helped Law and Luffy vs Doflamingo. Yes that's true.
But that's not the only way to defeat Doflamingo people.
All 9 of the SH's together can pull a win against Doflamingo. (Not saying there won't be any casualties though.. realistically I don't see all 9 of the SH's walking away from the fight.)
If Akainu doesn't have Law's Devil Fruit, he loses to Doflamingo?
If Mihawk doesn't have Law's Devil Fruit, he loses to Doflamingo?
If Shanks doesn't have Law's Devil Fruit, he loses to Doflamingo?
Etc..
Etc..
Room helped Law and Luffy vs Doflamingo. Yes that's true.
But that's not the only way to defeat Doflamingo people.
All 9 of the SH's together can pull a win against Doflamingo. (Not saying there won't be any casualties though.. realistically I don't see all 9 of the SH's walking away from the fight.)
Seem bullshit conclusions Avi tried to force, and same failure here as well.
If two people are fighting Doflamingo and they're on the same level as Luffy and Law when they fought Doffy, you cannot say they can accomplish what Law and Luffy did together because what they did together came from a very specific, particular, and unique ability.
Without Law's teleportive powers, Luffy and Law NEVER would have landed the teamwork combos they did. That is why a team consisting of people who are on their level and below and lack Shambles, which includes Luffy and Zoro, cannot be said to be able to accomplish the same results. Pay very close attention to the bold and underlined before you try to force the same bullshit conclusions. You cannot say Luffy and Zoro can make what happened with Law and Luffy happen because they ONLY happened when Law's teleportive powers were employed. When Law's Shambles wasn't in play, the duo got manhandled.
Akainu, Shanks, Mihawk, and people who are above Doflamingo don't need Room because they can overpower Doflamingo with sheer brute power, an opportunity Luffy and Law do not have.
Seem bullshit conclusions Avi tried to force, and same failure here as well.
If two people are fighting Doflamingo and they're on the same level as Luffy and Law when they fought Doffy, you cannot say they can accomplish what Law and Luffy did together because what they did together came from a very specific, particular, and unique ability.
Akainu, Shanks, Mihawk, and people who are above Doflamingo don't need Room because they can overpower Doflamingo with sheer brute power, an opportunity Luffy and Law do not have.
8 of which can be controlled and used as meat shields. When it comes to fighting Doflamingo, having a bunch of weaklings on your side(relative to Doffy himself) is far more harmful than beneficial.
EDIT: let me ask you this, do you feel like Gear 4th won't do anything or be as nearly effective to Doflamingo in a 1v1 both him and Luffy fresh?
Doflamingo wins. With the help of Law, Doflamingo vs Luffy ended with Luffy paralyzed on the ground and Doflamingo moving over to him, with the paralysis caused by Gear 4. Now removed the damage from Gamma Knife, and remove the help from Gatz, and it's clear who would be dead.
Yeah, that's complete nonsense to claim Luffy & Zoro would win when Luffy & Law (a duo who'll have a easier difficulty compared to the former because of Law's DF) barely won against Doffy. In fact, they've gotten lucky. It's clear that Doflamingo would win. He was able to comfortably handle pre-G4 Luffy, Law & Sanji so Zoro is no exception here. Zoro would get molested, in fact.
Doffy would win against the SH crew. He's a puppeteer, he can control the weaker trio and use them to attack one another or as a shield like he did with Bellamy before. Whenever they have their guard down, and they will when they see their nakama getting fatally wounded by a clone, Doffy can do some serious damage to the M3. Although, I believe a fight with the M3 vs Doflamingo would be a easier difficulty than Doffy vs SH's.
Seem bullshit conclusions Avi tried to force, and same failure here as well.
If two people are fighting Doflamingo and they're on the same level as Luffy and Law when they fought Doffy, you cannot say they can accomplish what Law and Luffy did together because what they did together came from a very specific, particular, and unique ability.
Without Law's teleportive powers, Luffy and Law NEVER would have landed the teamwork combos they did. That is why a team consisting of people who are on their level and below and lack Shambles, which includes Luffy and Zoro, cannot be said to be able to accomplish the same results. Pay very close attention to the bold and underlined before you try to force the same bullshit conclusions. You cannot say Luffy and Zoro can make what happened with Law and Luffy happen because they ONLY happened when Law's teleportive powers were employed. When Law's Shambles wasn't in play, the duo got manhandled.
Akainu, Shanks, Mihawk, and people who are above Doflamingo don't need Room because they can overpower Doflamingo with sheer brute power, an opportunity Luffy and Law do not have.
Please, if it wasn't for you disparately trying to make it look like everything went the way it did only because Law's godly teleportation ability and that it's impossible to accomplish those by other means, I wouldn't have bothered quoting you of all people in a Law related thread. You literally tried to make it look like Law is worth more than Zoro and Sanji together in a fight against Doflamingo, which is beyond anything you'd call BS. That's why I pointed my finger at your nonsensical post, and you tried to make excuses and bypassed actual argument by saying people who're below Luffy couldn't break parasite and all.
You may go back and check it out for yourself,That's not what you originally said in your first ever quote to me in this thread. It's your fault for not making your point clear. I've never denied things you've said in your second quote 'in which your approach was totally different from that of your first quote' nor did I tried to exhibit the fact that you've changed entire subject to cover your bias, it's because I understood your stance better with your second post. It, however, doesn't change the fact that everything you've said in your first ever quote is utter garbage. Pay more attention to your own posts in future before accusing others over your own mistakes.
It's pointless at this point. It seems to me like some people are focused way too much on Law > Zoro shit that they couldn't see or rather they're refusing to see what we're actually trying to say. Law and Luffy never really fought him together except for a few instances. The fight would have ended a lot easier than it did in canon had they fought together trough out the entire battle. They wouldn't even need to overexert themselves as much as they did in manga.
Please, if it wasn't for you disparately trying to make it look like everything went the way it did only because Law's godly teleportation ability, I wouldn't have bothered quoting you of all people in a Law related thread.
Okay then. Explain how Zoro creates the same opportunities Law's hax power did.
You literally tried to make it look like Law is worth more than Zoro and Sanji together in a fight against Doflamingo which is beyond anything you'd call BS. That's why I pointed my finger at your nonsensical post, and you tried to make excuses and bypassed actual argument by saying people who're below Luffy couldn't break parasite and all.
Sanji has shown he isn't worth **** when it comes to fighting Doflamingo and nothing has shown Zoro being able to fair much better. I do see Law being more valuable than those two because he's more than just brute strength, which has been shown time and tie again to not be enough to defeat Doflamingo.
You may go back and check it out for yourself,That's not what you originally said in your first ever quote to me in this thread. It's your fault for not making your point clear
Okay then. Explain how Zoro creates the same opportunities Law's hax power did. Sanji has shown he isn't worth **** when it comes to fighting Doflamingo and nothing has shown Zoro being able to fair much better. I do see Law being more valuable than those two because he's more than just brute strength, which has been shown time and tie again to not be enough to defeat Doflamingo.I made my points clear enough. Not my fault your conclusions were misguided
Who said Zoro fights the same way as Law did? Yeah, No one. So, your pointless question remains unanswered. You're once again talking as if Law's abilities are the only hope of victory in a battle VS Doflamingo for people on their level which is far from being reality. It's a good thing to learn that Law is more than just brute. But it seems to me like you're overlooking the fact that Law had to rely on a brute just like Zoro to finish the job that he couldn't hope to accomplish with his own godly abilities and brains. Oh wait, Law was actually owned the way he did mainly because his raw skills were out matched by another brut.
It's not impossible for a brute to accomplish things Law can do with his hax in a fight, which was proved by Luffy in the very same fight. They may lack feats as of now, But Zoro and Sanji >>Luffy any day of Luffy's life which is an irrefutable fact. So, if you want to tell me Law whose accomplishments pals in comparison to Luffy's can weight more than Zoro and Sanji then you'll have to admit that Luffy > Zoro and Sanji. Yea, my bad. You made your point clear and actually have that Law is worth more than Zoro and Sanji BS in your mind. So, I didn't misinterpret your post after all.
8 of which can be controlled and used as meat shields. When it comes to fighting Doflamingo, having a bunch of weaklings on your side(relative to Doffy himself) is far more harmful than beneficial.
Can you show me scans of Doflamingo controlling 8 people at once please..?
Doflamingo wins. With the help of Law, Doflamingo vs Luffy ended with Luffy paralyzed on the ground and Doflamingo moving over to him, with the paralysis caused by Gear 4. Now removed the damage from Gamma Knife, and remove the help from Gatz, and it's clear who would be dead.
You can remove the help from Gamma Knife in this hypothetical fight, Yes.. but the "help from Gatz" can easily be replicated by any one of the SH's..
And whether you like it or not, Zoro AT LEAST is capable of giving Doflamingo a run for his money in a physical fight. Now add the help of Sanji who can physically rush Doflamingo and as we've seen clashing with Doflamingo which made Doflamingo pause and be still for a quick moment.. this allows others to attack.. Franky and Usopp and Robin and Nami can all attack Doflamingo from long range so they don't even have to get close or get in the way of the strongest fighters they have to offer which is obviously Zoro and Sanji... add Brook in there to swing his sword (NO, not all of these attacks are capable of harming Doffy.. this is of course.. but they are capable of making Doflamingo need to block, or defend, and that my friend leaves openings for the top-tier SH's to harm him. And eventually win the fight.)
Zoro and Luffy could beat him i think. But if the others help i feel like it would hinder them. Mingo would use the weaker SH's as meat shields potentially killing them. Mingo could win the fight if he played smart with clones and such and awaken early to not let luffy gear 4th it idk. But it would be a high diff fight
Man did you really just ask that? You've lost this argument. Blaze already put the shots up but how could you forget Doffy used Parasite on the entire Riku army to take over the island? Also you Avi and Toshizo are deluding yourselves if you think Room wasn't a necessity in that fight between L&LvD. Most if not all of the hits pre G4 wouldn't have connected and Luffy would have died without Room swaps.
