Faith is one of the world's great evils

[Your Creepy Stalker]

I love it how in morality arguments subjective vs objective, the Objective side usually disregards the possibility of the other side having morals in the first place (which would in fact defeat their arguments).

Whether you like it or not, we all have morals. And they all come from the same place. It's just that some of use think it's from society and other think it's from a deity. Would you like it if I said you had no morals because you though they came from something that doesn't exist?

 

[Made in Heaven]

Theres no way to prove that God spoke to a man or that what a man has written were the words given to him from God.

Why do you just assume that there is no way to prove God gave revelation to people?

For the record, it is fact that Prophet Muhammad was an illiterate man, so to go claiming he wrote the Quran is out of the question. Which basically means it came from no where according to you.

Thats why we have diff books from diff religions claiming their writings were inspired by God while they all are all diff.

In Islam, the belief is that scriptures, such as, say the Gospel or Torah, were all revelations of God. But through time, the writings were tampered with by mischievous people (even Christians will admit that the Bible has been tampered with). The belief is that there has been dozens of scriptures throughout history, and that the Quran is the final one.

Everything in the world around me points to intelligent design, ie God,

That's good to hear. But that raises a question you need to answer. Why did he make the universe? Why did he give humans a natural need to worship him? Why did he create trials? Believing in a Deistic world view can't give answers to these vital questions.

but im not so ignorant as to think that It was God who gave diff religous practices,laws,traditions etc that divide the world rather than uniting it. No it was man that did that.

Why do you think it's ignorant for one to believe God revealed to Humans on how to behave themselves? How to worship him? How to achieve peace?

The belief in Islam is that God has given the same message over and over throughout history. In other words, previous scriptures were more or less the same as the Quran in terms of laws and regulations. Well, that's the explanation as to why there are different religious practices.

 

[Marin]

I love it how in morality arguments subjective vs objective, the Objective side usually disregards the possibility of the other side having morals in the first place (which would in fact defeat their arguments).

Whether you like it or not, we all have morals. And they all come from the same place. It's just that some of use think it's from society and other think it's from a deity. Would you like it if I said you had no morals because you though they came from something that doesn't exist?

Ah, but I never said you don't have morals!

Infact, I have explicitly stated that you do indeed have morality, however that morality is subjective as it stems from one's sociocultural and raising factors.

"Now, ofcourse atheists can be and are moral, however subjective morality, instills that there is no absolute good and absolute evil, everything is relative."

The point was that this morality is inferior due to the relativism by wich it is bound. As I already said, even the Nazis and communist regime leaders found their acts morally right as they would lead to a (supposedly) better future. The only difference between their morality and your morality is that their morality doesn't deem human lives as the most precious thing in the world.

(Do note I said "your morality" for the sake of the argument. I am not implying this or that about what you base your morality on. )

In a strict naturalistic sense, humans are just animals, so indeed some people just don't treat humans much differently from the rest of animal kingdom. Do note that this isn't no morality, but a morality wich doesn't see human life as something valuable. As there is no objective universal standard for morality (ie God) by wich one would orient himself, to claim that this particular form of morality is wrong is unjustified.

Morality, at the end of the day, is but a social construct in the atheistic worldviews wich is ultimatively relative from one society to another.

 

[ComplexCity]

I wasn't limiting blind faith to religion. I just used religion in my example. I already said faith is part of our daily thought processes so surely its not limited to religion and dont believe I implied that it was.

Blind faith is a fallacious statement anyway seeing how you cannot prove faith. Using religion is a poor example

 

[ComplexCity]

Ah, but I never said you don't have morals!

Infact, I have explicitly stated that you do indeed have morality, however that morality is subjective as it stems from one's sociocultural and raising factors.

"Now, ofcourse atheists can be and are moral, however subjective morality, instills that there is no absolute good and absolute evil, everything is relative."

The point was that this morality is inferior due to the relativism by wich it is bound. As I already said, even the Nazis and communist regime leaders found their acts morally right as they would lead to a (supposedly) better future. The only difference between their morality and your morality is that their morality doesn't deem human lives as the most precious thing in the world.

(Do note I said "your morality" for the sake of the argument. I am not implying this or that about what you base your morality on. )

In a strict naturalistic sense, humans are just animals, so indeed some people just don't treat humans much differently from the rest of animal kingdom. Do note that this isn't no morality, but a morality wich doesn't see human life as something valuable. As there is no objective universal standard for morality (ie God) by wich one would orient himself, to claim that this particular form of morality is wrong is unjustified.

Morality, at the end of the day, is but a social construct in the atheistic worldviews wich is ultimatively relative from one society to another.

Your wording tho.....

 

[Genjitxu]

Says "faith is world's greatest evil" ends with "is faith the source for good." Has faith they exist and is correct.

1- I was Christian. Then atheist. Now Christian again. I encourage all to use that free will ONCE before you die and choose. Choose religion, which one, or none. One must be born again they say. Abraham wasn't satisfied with the idols of his father either, so he went looking for God. I left a good thing only to come back to a good thing.

2 - The advancement of human knowledge is an idol unto itself and not necessarily a good thing. I have a psychology degree. Psychologists don't know what they're doing. It is the height of arrogance and vanity to pretend to know what is in someone's heart.

3 - God did not command any of that to happen. People do what they want. "They burn their sons and daughters in the fire - something I did not command nor did such a thing ever enter my mind" Jeremiah 7:31

4 b- God is just and holy. He declared that the wages for sin is death. We have all sinned and blood is required as "life is in the blood." The devil thought God would break His own law and forgive us anyway. And then Satan would accuse God of not being just and holy. However God kept His Word and paid that price for us Himself. That was real agony Jesus felt in the Garden of Gethsemane and that was no deception or ghost on the cross.

4 a - The Hebrews were the incubation for the nascent faith. While God gave the kingdoms of Satan a chance to flee (as in the 7 days the Hebrews waited outside Jericho), any fights had to be to the death to protect the faith. That is why the Hebrews had all those laws and rules. So they couldn't interact with others and become like their neighbors.

5 - I was Catholic. The pope is not infallible. The Catholic church is arrogant. The pope is the succession of St. Peter. Fine. But Peter was not infallible. Anointed, yes. But Paul rebuked him at Antioch when Peter made a mistake. David was anointed but he was rebuked by the prophet Nathan. Saul was anointed but was rebuked by Samuel. Appolos was anointed but he was rebuked by Priscilla and Aquila. Etc.

6 - I wish I had more faith and more strength in my younger years. I wasn't strong enough to a Christian in high school and college.

7 - Faith is also giving God the benefit of the doubt when you hear an accusation against God. "God killed people" etc. And as far as homosexuality, I believe Jesus healed a gay man in Matthew 8 and Luke 7. The centurion's servant that is healed is his "pais" from root word "paedestry" which is man/young man love. Jesus says of divorce, "in the beginning it wasn't so but Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts allowed it." I think we should likewise petition the Lord to allow homosexuals to marry. They're not looking for debauchery in town squares like Sodom and Gomorrah. They should have a covenantal relationship within which to enjoy their sexuality.

8 - Environmental- God gave me inspiration for an invention to save water. I'm working on a patent and I'm becoming a plumber now so I can install these things for free the rest of my life. Because God

9 - Good and evil and concepts like that are taken on faith all the time. Because they are real and unseen.

10 - Live by Law refers to the Old Covenant Jews who thought by obeying the law (which no one can) they could reach the afterlife. Muslims believe something similar in that if they follow their laws they will have life. But there is nothing but death in the law because there is no faith in law. The law only convicts of sin.
However the law and this world of evil convicted Jesus who had no sin. When Jesus conquered death and sin he said, "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am." Faith in Jesus is accounted to Christians as righteousness. In Jesus is life and the way back home.

 

[Marin]

Your wording tho.....

What?

 

[Hawker]

Says "faith is world's greatest evil" ends with "is faith the source for good." Has faith they exist and is correct.

I don't think you understood my point or that you've never went to college.

1- I was Christian. Then atheist. Now Christian again. I encourage all to use that free will ONCE before you die and choose. Choose religion, which one, or none. One must be born again they say. Abraham wasn't satisfied with the idols of his father either, so he went looking for God. I left a good thing only to come back to a good thing.

Your subjective experience is irrelevant in this matter. I'm not saying faith is always evil. I'm saying it's the source of evil and used as a weapon.

2 - The advancement of human knowledge is an idol unto itself and not necessarily a good thing. I have a psychology degree. Psychologists don't know what they're doing. It is the height of arrogance and vanity to pretend to know what is in someone's heart.

Didn't answr my question though.

3 - God did not command any of that to happen. People do what they want. "They burn their sons and daughters in the fire - something I did not command nor did such a thing ever enter my mind" Jeremiah 7:31

Yet they happened, because of faith. That's the point.

8 - Environmental- God gave me inspiration for an invention to save water. I'm working on a patent and I'm becoming a plumber now so I can install these things for free the rest of my life. Because God

Good for you, but you are mistaken and belittling yourself if you think you need religion for any of that. Tell me one thing a religious person can do that a non-religious person can't do?

10 - Live by Law refers to the Old Covenant Jews who thought by obeying the law (which no one can) they could reach the afterlife. Muslims believe something similar in that if they follow their laws they will have life. But there is nothing but death in the law because there is no faith in law. The law only convicts of sin.
However the law and this world of evil convicted Jesus who had no sin. When Jesus conquered death and sin he said, "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am." Faith in Jesus is accounted to Christians as righteousness. In Jesus is life and the way back home.

Okay.....and you said you have a degree in psychology?: D

All in all the bottom line is this, as quoted from Richard Dawkins:

"if you actually look at the moralities that are accepted among modern people, among 21st century people, we don’t believe in slavery anymore. We believe in equality of women. We believe in being gentle. We believe in being kind to animals. These are all things which are entirely recent. They have very little basis in Biblical or Quranic scripture. They are things that have developed over historical time through a consensus of reasoning, of sober discussion, argument, legal theory, political and moral philosophy. These do not come from religion. To the extent that you can find the good bits in religious scriptures, you have to cherry pick. You search your way through the Bible or the Quran and you find the occasional verse that is an acceptable profession of morality and you say, ‘Look at that. That’s religion,’ and you leave out all the horrible bits and you say, ‘Oh, we don’t believe that anymore. We’ve grown out of that.’ Well, of course we’ve grown out it. We’ve grown out of it because of secular moral philosophy and rational discussion."

 

[Made in Heaven]

Isn't Richard Dawkins the same guy who can't even answer the most basic question in the field he claims to be an expert in?

Dude even considers aliens making life on Earth more realistic than God. lmao

 

[ComplexCity]

snip

I see a lot of hateful disposition toward religion in your replies. I mean this thread was already proven fallacious by a couple different members already. Why the hate yo?

 

[Ansatsuken]

When you said about progress of human. I think we have enough technology progress but actually lack in human and social progress.

Apparently people like you Hawker whatever your real name or citizen was is not the best human to judge and also to shape, teach other human about manner, behavior, attitude etc. People that tried to created a hatred, or discontent among human by telling this is wrong and evil is not much worse than a radical religious people that want to teach people their believe.

And also one day me, you and all human will die and all the progress inside the earth is not worth anymore. The end of world is real but one day.

I dont care to much about this world bcus I will gone one day. I will do my best to contribute my energy but thats all.

 

[Hawker]

Isn't Richard Dawkins the same guy who can't even answer the most basic question in the field he claims to be an expert in?

Dude even considers aliens making life on Earth more realistic than God. lmao

An example of a basic question in biology that Dawkins can't answer, please provide it?

And he is right. It's more probable for aliens to exist than god to exist. That's common sense. There are billions of stars in this universe. There is 0 scientific evidence for god. Also the omnipotent god with a plan hypothesis was disproven by quantum physics.

He basically eats people like you for breakfeast:

 

[Made in Heaven]

An example of a basic question in biology that Dawkins can't answer, please provide it?

You must be registered for see links

Unable to answer the most fundamental question of Evolution, unable to show proof of mutations adding information into the genome. Not surprising, considering such a thing has never been observed, yet people like him insist evolution is the truth.

And he is right. It's more probable for aliens to exist than god to exist. That's common sense.

Read what I said again. I said he thinks Aliens creating life on Earth makes more sense than God doing it.

There are billions of stars in this universe.

wow

There is 0 scientific evidence for god.

Obviously. Science deals with the material world, of which God is transcendent of, as he created the universe. You can;t research God, you can't test his existence. That's common sense. Regardless of that, it's not hard to find support for ID in nature and , as a Muslim, I'd also add the Quran as support for God's existence given it's miraculous nature.

Also the omnipotent god with a plan hypothesis was disproven by quantum physics.

A knowledge-limited human was able to determine whether an omnipotent God is possible through a 5 minute video when said human doesn't even understand what dreams are and hasn't even seen everything under the oceans. lol Okay.

 

[Ansatsuken]

An example of a basic question in biology that Dawkins can't answer, please provide it?

And he is right. It's more probable for aliens to exist than god to exist. That's common sense. There are billions of stars in this universe. There is 0 scientific evidence for god. Also the omnipotent god with a plan hypothesis was disproven by quantum physics.

He basically eats people like you for breakfeast:

You think what human do with Quantum Physic is enough and at the fullest to tell us God dont exist. Its like scientist claimed Human just using small percentage of their brain power. How they can be so sure that their Quantum Physic researched is enough to proved or disproved God never exist?

Do you also do a Quantum physic research by yourself Hawker or just being a sheep to all this info/fact.

Human sometime can be pitiful, thinking they already covered all thing inside the universe. The earth it self still doesnt being covered 100% by human yet it hidden things.

 

[Bored38]

Why do you just assume that there is no way to prove God gave revelation to people?

For the record, it is fact that Prophet Muhammad was an illiterate man, so to go claiming he wrote the Quran is out of the question. Which basically means it came from no where according to you.



In Islam, the belief is that scriptures, such as, say the Gospel or Torah, were all revelations of God. But through time, the writings were tampered with by mischievous people (even Christians will admit that the Bible has been tampered with). The belief is that there has been dozens of scriptures throughout history, and that the Quran is the final one.


That's good to hear. But that raises a question you need to answer. Why did he make the universe? Why did he give humans a natural need to worship him? Why did he create trials? Believing in a Deistic world view can't give answers to these vital questions.



Why do you think it's ignorant for one to believe God revealed to Humans on how to behave themselves? How to worship him? How to achieve peace?

The belief in Islam is that God has given the same message over and over throughout history. In other words, previous scriptures were more or less the same as the Quran in terms of laws and regulations. Well, that's the explanation as to why there are different religious practices.

I access this forum through my phone and can't highlight and respond to each of your points so forgive me.
Lets say someone did speak to Muhammad, how do you know it was God? Can you prove there are no other entities in existance other than God who could have spoken to him? No. Unless God himself tells me directly that he spoke to Muhammad, it would be nothing but blind faith for me to think that he did.
If God made a point to speak to man a thousand years ago and after a thousand years man changed his word to benefit themselves, would God have not known that would happen? And if that were the case and God thought it important to speak to man in words, why not speak to us all?
Gods word is in his/her/both/neither creation and within us. Natural Law. Unless you believe Gods purpose was to pit us against each other for his entertainment how can you believe he would interact with man in a way that creates the religous conflicts we have today the world over. At this point in history theres no way for individuals to read religous text from different religions and discover which is true and which is bs, which hasn't been tampered with and which has.
That impossibility is why I chose not to blindly believe.
And btw I was raised as a Christian and spent many years testing my Christian beliefs against other religions by studying other religions. My personal conclusion is that every religous system was put in place by man to control man. Those systems don't get you closer to God, quite the opposite actually in my op.

 

[Bored38]

Blind faith is a fallacious statement anyway seeing how you cannot prove faith. Using religion is a poor example

Incorrect. I have faith that i'll solve all the problems I encounter on my job today. Its not blind faith because I have a history of doing so but at the moment I think i'll solve todays problems, its a statement of faith until I accomplish it but not blind faith because I've done it before. Now if it was my first day on the job with no experience than it would blind faith to think I would successfully solve todays problems.
Faith is part of everyday and theres a diff between blind faith and faith in general.

 

[ComplexCity]

Incorrect. I have faith that i'll solve all the problems I encounter on my job today. Its not blind faith because I have a history of doing so but at the moment I think i'll solve todays problems, its a statement of faith until I accomplish it but not blind faith because I've done it before. Now if it was my first day on the job with no experience than it would blind faith to think I would successfully solve todays problems.
Faith is part of everyday and theres a diff between blind faith and faith in general.

Once again I'll reiterate, faith cannot be proven through conventional (scientific) methods. There is no way for you to prove that the outcome will come out the same as your other outcomes.

blind faith Translate Button
noun
belief without true understanding, perception, or discrimination

Anything can fit that dictionary definition. Which is why I said blind faith is a fallacious term seeing as how "normal" faith cannot be proven conventionally

 

[Bored38]

Once again I'll reiterate, faith cannot be proven through conventional (scientific) methods. There is no way for you to prove that the outcome will come out the same as your other outcomes.

blind faith Translate Button
noun
belief without true understanding, perception, or discrimination

Anything can fit that dictionary definition. Which is why I said blind faith is a fallacious term seeing as how "normal" faith cannot be proven conventionally

We'll agree to disagree then

 

[Bored38]

Once again I'll reiterate, faith cannot be proven through conventional (scientific) methods. There is no way for you to prove that the outcome will come out the same as your other outcomes.

blind faith Translate Button
noun
belief without true understanding, perception, or discrimination

Anything can fit that dictionary definition. Which is why I said blind faith is a fallacious term seeing as how "normal" faith cannot be proven conventionally

We'll agree to disagree then

 

[Son of God]

Isn't Richard Dawkins the same guy who can't even answer the most basic question in the field he claims to be an expert in?

Dude even considers aliens making life on Earth more realistic than God. lmao

Don't you?