Kakuzu vs Onoki

[EZQ]

Lol incorrect! Hiruzen was rusty at first when holding enma then soon after parried with oru like it was a sword. He also held RDS for a long time with a sword in his back no diff. No problems with stamina or chakra based on manga facts, it is myth that this site didn't research on.

Hiruzen obviously was having stamina problems since in his prime he was obviously stronger than a man who can keep up with Orochimaru. We should assume prime Hiruzen stomps Oro in CQC, so he just being on par with him shows the lack of strenght and stamina he had while being old. While being edo all that doesn't exist.

 

[EZQ]

Fuuton fired jutsu mid-air ------> other hearts showed the ability to sustain air time for a decent amount of time.

Combine the two together and you can come up with the conclusion that they can fight in the air :lol

Dude i'm pretty sure there's a scan of the masks flyig. It should save you a lot of time arguing with people who think they can't. (Maybe they were just levitating).

It's between Kin and Gin vs Darui chapters and Team 7 vs Asuma chapters. Maybe you'll find it. If i do i'll post it on your wall.

 

[KidGamer65]

KG the Roots on the floor laying flat are Symmetrical, what is there to prove whats already there[

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]? Both battles I compare were near the end of the roots. While Sasuke's scenario wasnt.



Dont know what your seeing honestly[

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Ok then, I'll agree it's Bijuu sized. But considering Hiruzen's jutsu is longer than the statue's height or roughly on par with only half the stream, the other half would put it 2x longer. Thus it still reaches farther than any of Kakuzu's elemental jutsu.

Obv. If I were to give him high level Suiton, it would be same scale as his other AoE jutsu. Which also = engulfing Buijuu size.

:lol So basically if you were to give him fanfictional feats of your choosing, it'd be the same scale as his Fuuton.

I think I would bother:

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They both carry same height. Both cover 3-4 lengths of those trees

Yet Hiruzen's still reaches further. So once again your point doesn't even matter. The Jutsu's height only reaches the height of those trees. Bijuu are much larger, much taller and much wider than those trees. Kakuzu's jutsu surpasses Hiruzen's in width, at least when talking about Katon and Fuuton, but not length which is the only dimension that matters in this discussion. So your point still falls flat.

Covering 3-4 trees with it's length is irrelevant because the horizontal length of the tree is minuscule. Only height is the important part and that doesn't even reach Bijuu in size.

They can jump higher waay higher then normal Shinobi's could base on the fact they were way higher height then the height of Choza. And the way they alter the movements in the air? At best scribes gliding. Still better then Hiruzen can perform in that air.

Waiting for a scan.

Well I mean seeing as all they do is fire jutsu, thats basically them fighting :lol and its different because they remain in the air longer, and have the ability to change their AoE much quicker than most people in the air due to being made of flexible threads

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This is not what jumping looks like, especially when you combine that with the one scan of them hovering in the air .-.

Plus when the lightening heart was destroyed it lookde like it was still in the air

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Lol being able to fire a jutsu while in mid air isn't the same being able to maneuver mid air and then use your jutsu. There is obviously a difference. Underlined makes no sense. How does their bodily composition let them change the AoE of their jutsu. :lol

Lol it'd be best to provide the actual scan you are talking about.

Which isn't proof of flight or maneuverability in air.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

yep, this is the diffeerence between hiruzen & kakuzu - versatlity.

Bro, not sure what part your agreeing with him. His premise is to make Kakuzu fight completely dumb, yet alone not capable of muli tasking. Both Mask and Kakuzu are focused on a single jutsu alone? Makes no sense. And poor representation of Kakuzu.

Ok then, I'll agree it's Bijuu sized. But considering Hiruzen's jutsu is longer than the statue's height or roughly on par with only half the stream, the other half would put it 2x longer. Thus it still reaches farther than any of Kakuzu's elemental jutsu.

Kakuzu's elements only gain half screen times (or blocked mid way) while we get to witness the whole view of Hiruzen's elements. Not sure how thats a fair comparison.

Plus the fact I dont see in issue for those Hearts getting close, based on being superior aerial movement, to make up for it.

:lol So basically if you were to give him fanfictional feats of your choosing, it'd be the same scale as his Fuuton.

Well the fan fic is fair since its suppose to be high level by manga/DB implication. Lol

Yet Hiruzen's still reaches further. So once again your point doesn't even matter. The Jutsu's height only reaches the height of those trees. Bijuu are much larger, much taller and much wider than those trees. Kakuzu's jutsu surpasses Hiruzen's in width, at least when talking about Katon and Fuuton, but not length which is the only dimension that matters in this discussion. So your point still falls flat.

Bro the length of those trees make humans look tiny[

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Waiting for a scan.

Zex posted it[

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]. Last, bottom right, panel also shows Ghost Jingou's shedding. Particles moving downward, while its still showing panel time, propelling upwards.

 

[super yang]

Bro, not sure what part your agreeing with him. His premise is to make Kakuzu fight completely dumb, yet alone not capable of muli tasking. Both Mask and Kakuzu are focused on a single jutsu alone? Makes no sense. And poor representation of Kakuzu
.

its the part where onoki has more mobility, elemental advantages, attacking options & chances to use jutsu priority.

the only way kakuzu could beat onoki is w/ some dream scenario where onoki never successfully defends or counters & where kakuzu never loses a non-expendable mask.
Yet the water mask is destined to lose to a rock clone, his mask are destined to be outnumbered & kakuzu is destined to face repeated obstacles in the form of earth jutsu on the ground. the odds say 9/10 times that kakuzus rigidity & repetitive ''offense only'' style & lack of tactical flexibility(compared to hiruzen/onoki) will be exploited & the match will go down hill for him.

hiruzen completely turns the tables on onoki w/ his supplementary jutsu & tactile versatility

if you think onoki will only use 1 jutsu at a time then you shouldn't be taken seriously.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

its the part where onoki has more mobility,

Which Mask mobility makes up for

elemental advantages,

Nope he has no element advantages to someone who has all of them.

attacking options & chances to use jutsu priority.

Thats literally what Kakuzu can do with Mask and himself.

the only way kakuzu could beat onoki is w/ some dream scenario where onoki never successfully defends or counters & where kakuzu never loses a non-expendable mask.

Onoki has zero counter to Raiton. Futon can possibly blow his defenses away. The only one worth mentioning is Katon (alone) on the ground. And a hypothetical Suiton. Once chakra nature starts mixing it overpowers any of his elements on the ground.

Yet the water mask is destined to lose to a rock clone, his mask are destined to be outnumbered

By what? If Suiton is mixed by Wind Nature and gains more force, and possibly overpower Doton. If mixed by Lightening, the conductor can neutralize Doton, same application of Deidara's clay against lightening diffusion.

kakuzu is destined to face repeated obstacles in the form of earth jutsu on the ground.

Something that was implied he can, which Darui needed to counter. WITHOUT his MASK HELP.

the odds say 9/10 times that kakuzus rigidity & repetitive ''offense only'' style & lack of tactical flexibility(compared to hiruzen/onoki) will be exploited & the match will go down hill for him.

What are you saying? I could literally say the samething as Onoki. That honestly makes no sense.

 

[Curse Mark]

EJ turning up

 

[KidGamer65]

Kakuzu's elements only gain half screen times (or blocked mid way) while we get to witness the whole view of Hiruzen's elements. Not sure how thats a fair comparison.

No, no, no. You are assuming that you only see half of the attack. The notion that there is more is based on nothing.

Plus the fact I dont see in issue for those Hearts getting close, based on being superior aerial movement, to make up for it.

Superior aerial movement is completely irrelevant. The point is, they need to be able to get their jutsu to Onoki before he can use Jinton. The jutsu can hit if the masks get close enough, but they have to get close enough. In the time it takes them to do that, Onoki would almost be done charging his Jinton, if not finished. By the time they fire and the jutsu reaches Onoki, he'd already have released Jinton and turned Kakuzu to dust.

Well the fan fic is fair since its suppose to be high level by manga/DB implication. Lol

Gian is high level, does it mean it's reach matches Atsugai or Katon?


Yeah, obviously not.

Bro the length of those trees make humans look tiny[

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Kurama and Susanoo aren't even standing up here. Just a crouch.

Zex posted it[

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]. Last, bottom right, panel also shows Ghost Jingou's shedding. Particles moving downward, while its still showing panel time, propelling upwards.

That panel only shows them jumping in a single direction, and that shedding is going downward because they jumped. Not because they are maneuvering in mid air.

 

[Lord Tywin]

I really like someone to elaborate on how Kakuzu is going to disrupt Onoki's jinton, when he has prepared jinton in an instant.

 

[Zexion~]

Ok then, I'll agree it's Bijuu sized. But considering Hiruzen's jutsu is longer than the statue's height or roughly on par with only half the stream, the other half would put it 2x longer. Thus it still reaches farther than any of Kakuzu's elemental jutsu.



:lol So basically if you were to give him fanfictional feats of your choosing, it'd be the same scale as his Fuuton.





Yet Hiruzen's still reaches further. So once again your point doesn't even matter. The Jutsu's height only reaches the height of those trees. Bijuu are much larger, much taller and much wider than those trees. Kakuzu's jutsu surpasses Hiruzen's in width, at least when talking about Katon and Fuuton, but not length which is the only dimension that matters in this discussion. So your point still falls flat.

Covering 3-4 trees with it's length is irrelevant because the horizontal length of the tree is minuscule. Only height is the important part and that doesn't even reach Bijuu in size.




Waiting for a scan.



Lol being able to fire a jutsu while in mid air isn't the same being able to maneuver mid air and then use your jutsu. There is obviously a difference. Underlined makes no sense. How does their bodily composition let them change the AoE of their jutsu. :lol

Lol it'd be best to provide the actual scan you are talking about.

Which isn't proof of flight or maneuverability in air.

They can move the mask in various angles as they are being connected by flexible materials? Proven by when they connected, and when Kakuzu had them within him he was able to change the angles.

Originally in the front

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there is no specific requirenment saying the mask needs to remain in the same spot all the time.

Its the same scan I just cropped it out because I assumed that was the one you were refering to beforehand.

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Its not concrete proof but the fact that we see it in the air, and then a bunch of chapters later destroyed in the air :yeah:

 

[KidGamer65]

They can move the mask in various angles as they are being connected by flexible materials? Proven by when they connected, and when Kakuzu had them within him he was able to change the angles.

Originally in the front

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there is no specific requirenment saying the mask needs to remain in the same spot all the time.

Its the same scan I just cropped it out because I assumed that was the one you were refering to beforehand.

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Its not concrete proof but the fact that we see it in the air, and then a bunch of chapters later destroyed in the air :yeah:

That doesn't change the AoE. Only the direction of the blast.

A bunch of chapters later at a different altitude in a different location. No point.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

No, no, no. You are assuming that you only see half of the attack. The notion that there is more is based on nothing.

For Wind: Disagree but fair enough.

For Katon: So that means the sea of flames stops right at mid tree behind team 10? Even then that distance already covers as much range as Hiruzen.

For Raiton: Hows is it an assumption? Does this apply that if Shiki and Choki were to get speared, the lightening stop to where they were?

Superior aerial movement is completely irrelevant. The point is, they need to be able to get their jutsu to Onoki before he can use Jinton. The jutsu can hit if the masks get close enough, but they have to get close enough. In the time it takes them to do that, Onoki would almost be done charging his Jinton, if not finished. By the time they fire and the jutsu reaches Onoki, he'd already have released Jinton and turned Kakuzu to dust.

"Close enough" is an exaggerate and downplay to a mid range fighter.

Gian is high level, does it mean it's reach matches Atsugai or Katon?

Based on every high level Suiton jutsu shown in manga. You could either conclude it will take the priorities of Tobirama's water Suidanha or the high scale Suiton thats classified specifically high level.

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Kurama and Susanoo aren't even standing up here. Just a crouch.

?? How does that even show they dwarf those trees in length in my scan?

That panel only shows them jumping in a single direction, and that shedding is going downward because they jumped. Not because they are maneuvering in mid air.

I was arguing, at best, capable of glide.

 

[KidGamer65]

For Wind: Disagree but fair enough.

For Katon: So that means the sea of flames stops right at mid tree behind team 10? Even then that distance already covers as much range as Hiruzen.

For Raiton: Hows is it an assumption? Does this apply that if Shiki and Choki were to get speared, the lightening stop to where they were?

Because that is all that was shown. :lol I think we need to go over what assumptions are, because I don't know why you and some others think that you can claim something based on nothing and get away with it?

-PROVE that anything you are saying above is true. The Manga has shown the reach of these two attacks, and all you can say is that Gian reaches Shikamaru and Choji. Smh. Then you are gonna ask me "how is that an assumption?". Lmfao, really now dude?

And no, it doesn't cover as much as Hiruzen. The distance it covers in terms of length is nowhere near the length of any of those trees, let alone Hiruzen's jutsu. Half of Hiruzen's jutsu is as long as the the Bijuu sized SS. Thus all of it is twice it's length, roughly. Thus far longer than those trees and far longer

"Close enough" is an exaggerate and downplay to a mid range fighter.

Not a counter nor does this change the facts.

Based on every high level Suiton jutsu shown in manga. You could either conclude it will take the priorities of Tobirama's water Suidanha or the high scale Suiton thats classified specifically high level.

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Makes zero sense. other jutsu being that large (they aren't) and being high level doesn't give you the evidence you need to claim that Suiton from Kakuzu will be the same level. High level=/=Same level.

?? How does that even show they dwarf those trees in length in my scan?

Never said they did. They are more or less equal like you've been saying this whole time, so I don't even know why you bothered to bring the trees up in the first place.

I was arguing, at best, capable of glide.

Lol which still doesn't matter.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Because that is all that was shown. :lol I think we need to go over what assumptions are, because I don't know why you and some others think that you can claim something based on nothing and get away with it?

That very reason I could used for your quote here:

But considering Hiruzen's jutsu is longer than the statue's height or roughly on par with only half the stream, the other half would put it 2x longer.

-PROVE that anything you are saying above is true. The Manga has shown the reach of these two attacks, and all you can say is that Gian reaches Shikamaru and Choji. Smh. Then you are gonna ask me "how is that an assumption?". Lmfao, really now dude?

Prove from Katon: Kishimoto wanted to demonstrate the scale of Kakuzu then moved on the story.

Raiton: The attack power is = Raikiri. Raikiri can pirces right through Choji. The lightening can still be stream based on the panels showing Kakashi struggling to cancel it out.

And no, it doesn't cover as much as Hiruzen. The distance it covers in terms of length is nowhere near the length of any of those trees, let alone Hiruzen's jutsu. Half of Hiruzen's jutsu is as long as the the Bijuu sized SS. Thus all of it is twice it's length, roughly. Thus far longer than those trees and far longer

Not what I see. The Kakuzu's stream close the distance between himself and Choji (which was long range from each other already) and continued towards the trees behind them.

Not a counter nor does this change the facts.

addressed

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Makes zero sense. other jutsu being that large (they aren't) and being high level doesn't give you the evidence you need to claim that Suiton from Kakuzu will be the same level. High level=/=Same level.

Ill leave it at that.

Never said they did. They are more or less equal like you've been saying this whole time, so I don't even know why you bothered to bring the trees up in the first place.

What were you rebutting then?

Lol which still doesn't matter.

Closing the gap with jump/glide that already reaches Hiruzen stream added on to Kakuzu's own stream dont matter? K

 

[KidGamer65]

That very reason I could used for your quote here

Stop using garbage logic. Hiruzen and Guruguru used the same technique. Guruguru's tech was going to obliterate the SA, thus it has to be long enough to reach. Hiruzen's are equal in every way as they stalemated in canon. Do the math.

Prove from Katon: Kishimoto wanted to demonstrate the scale of Kakuzu then moved on the story.

So basically you have no proof? Yeah. Gotcha.

Raiton: The attack power is = Raikiri. Raikiri can pirces right through Choji. The lightening can still be stream based on the panels showing Kakashi struggling to cancel it out.

Raikiri being able to pierce Choji doesn't change the fact that you have no proof Gian would extend farther than their position, something it can do AND STILL end up piercing Choji and Shikamaru.

Not what I see. The Kakuzu's stream close the distance between himself and Choji (which was long range from each other already) and continued towards the trees behind them.

And the distance between the trees is nowhere near the length of the trees.

What were you rebutting then?

You are the one who posted that scan as a response to my argument as if the trees dwarfed Bijuu or something.

Closing the gap with jump/glide that already reaches Hiruzen stream added on to Kakuzu's own stream dont matter? K

No, it doesn't matter since the bold is fanfiction.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Stop using garbage logic. Hiruzen and Guruguru used the same technique. Guruguru's tech was going to obliterate the SA, thus it has to be long enough to reach. Hiruzen's are equal in every way as they stalemated in canon. Do the math.

K

So basically you have no proof? Yeah. Gotcha.

The meters Kakuzu was across from Choji and Shiki were more then the length or same[

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] of the tree in that location. If hypothetically came down. So ill leave it at that.

Raikiri being able to pierce Choji doesn't change the fact that you have no proof Gian would extend farther than their position, something it can do AND STILL end up piercing Choji and Shikamaru.

Ill leave it at that, addressed above.

And the distance between the trees is nowhere near the length of the trees.

Its more or the same distance. As their was a tree not far behind them[

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No, it doesn't matter since the bold is fanfiction.

I already showed you Ghost jumping/gliding above Buijuu/Boss Summon size charater via Choza

 

[ToshiZO]

I love how this stuff started off with bold claims of Hiruzen's jutsu being on a completely different level than Kakuzu's, to a more tame "oh they're just longer is all, not better in overall AOE". Somebody must be keeping this shit in check. I think this thread is slowly starting to serve its purpose.

 

[super yang]

Which Mask mobility makes up for

no, onoki & all his clones can fly.
kakuzu can only get 2 masks air borne

Nope he has no element advantages to someone who has all of them.

onokis advantage is earth, which kakuzu doesn't use tactically. and the masks can't swith elements

Thats literally what Kakuzu can do with Mask and himself.

no, at the cost of losing his masks mobility & spacing, kakuzu can use combos but onoki will either block it, fly out of range or go underground

Onoki has zero counter to Raiton. Futon can possibly blow his defenses away. The only one worth mentioning is Katon (alone) on the ground. And a hypothetical Suiton. Once chakra nature starts mixing it overpowers any of his elements on the ground.

if kakuzu has sui'ton, onoki has fuu'ton & ka'ton

already adressed kakuzus disadvantages if he tries to bring masks together for combos

By what? If Suiton is mixed by Wind Nature and gains more force, and possibly overpower Doton. If mixed by Lightening, the conductor can neutralize Doton, same application of Deidara's clay against lightening diffusion.

earth stream or partial golem shenanigans.
you don't neutralize do'ton, you break it. deidaras clay is not a sound comparison.
again, kakuzu using combos is desperation time & the scales tipping away from him

What are you saying? I could literally say the samething as Onoki. That honestly makes no sense.

no U can't, cuz onoki has the benefit of flight & expendable clones & controlling the ground, battlefiled

its only kakuzu who can't have any mistakes, accidents or flukes occuring. he's walking a tightrope here.

when do we get to the part where we show how hiruzens arsenal fares vs onokis? aas compared to kakuzus.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

no, onoki & all his clones can fly.
kakuzu can only get 2 masks air borne

Nope all 4[

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onokis advantage is earth, which kakuzu doesn't use tactically. and the masks can't swith elements

Onoki needs to be on the floor and when that happens his open to get blasted. Mask not able to switch is irrelevant.

no, at the cost of losing his masks mobility & spacing, kakuzu can use combos but onoki will either block it, fly out of range or go underground

The heck are you saying @Bold? Nope Onoki has no defenses taking Raiton. Combos = 2 elements. Will always be superior to 1. Onoki has no feats escaping wide range jutsu's in the air. IF he does, the gale force behind Futon is screwing with his flight course and gets taken out with another jutsu along the way. Raiton for underground.

if kakuzu has sui'ton, onoki has fuu'ton & ka'ton

He obviously does and I am basing it off of hypothetically. Still overpowers someone who can't mixed them, at least no evidence his clones would be strong enough team to match his.

already adressed kakuzus disadvantages if he tries to bring masks together for combos

Example the only purpose at a disadvantage is Onoki challenging the mask with a single element vs a combination.

earth stream or partial golem shenanigans.
you don't neutralize do'ton, you break it. deidaras clay is not a sound comparison.
again, kakuzu using combos is desperation time & the scales tipping away from him

Nope you either break it or neutralize it. Unless you believe Raiton penetration force is going to completely break down Doton. Either way of how you believe its going to happen. P.S. yes clay = Doton. Stated by DB and Sasuke himself.

no U can't, cuz onoki has the benefit of flight & expendable clones & controlling the ground, battlefiled

Addressed mobility so no. Clones have zero feats of being factors, so they get blast to oblivion. Adressed and Adressed

its only kakuzu who can't have any mistakes, accidents or flukes occuring. he's walking a tightrope here.

Lol ok so Onoki being wide open attempting to Jinton wouldnt be a mistake? Lets use some logic here. Every character can't make a mistake or they lose.

when do we get to the part where we show how hiruzens arsenal fares vs onokis? aas compared to kakuzus.

I address it already:

---

"Having 4 helpers is just as effective. So I dont see how it matters that Hirzuen is more the merrier. The outcome is going to be as effective "

"Same point I said to Apex Hiruzen has more in his arsenal. Yet Hiruzen can just work with his elemental stream+Clones to defeat Onoki. So I fail to see how Mask pressures Onoki just as much, doesnt work. They/He have better aerial then Hiruzen for this match up. Let alone rivaling scale in element streams."

 

[super yang]

Nope all 4[

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].

a still shot of 2 masks jumping over the horizon
notice them in the 4th panel coming over the hill. wind & fire have wings & were shown flying
lightning, water & earth, no

Onoki needs to be on the floor and when that happens his open to get blasted. Mask not able to switch is irrelevant.

clones can be on the ground too
the clone can just go underground in a pinch
it matters because only 1 can use rai'ton

The heck are you saying @Bold? Nope Onoki has no defenses taking Raiton. Combos = 2 elements. Will always be superior to 1. Onoki has no feats escaping wide range jutsu's in the air. IF he does, the gale force behind Futon is screwing with his flight course and gets taken out with another jutsu along the way. Raiton for underground.

masks merge for combos cutting them down to 3(4-2+1) positions including kakuzu while onoki still has 4 or 5 dopplegangers out
except earth is defensive. it can shift submerge & even be reinforced. onoki won't have to worry about it though since they're outnumbered

He obviously does and I am basing it off of hypothetically. Still overpowers someone who can't mixed them, at least no evidence his clones would be strong enough team to match his.

again, mixing mask is losing tactical ability= clone blitz or jin'ton from distance

Example the only purpose at a disadvantage is Onoki challenging the mask with a single element vs a combination.

already addressed that

Nope you either break it or neutralize it. Unless you believe Raiton penetration force is going to completely break down Doton. Either way of how you believe its going to happen. P.S. yes clay = Doton. Stated by DB and Sasuke himself.

clay is clay, not do'ton
I do believe the bold yes, w/ gian specifically
neutralizing the charge in clay bombs/ baku'ton =/= breaking do'ton

Addressed mobility so no. Clones have zero feats of being factors, so they get blast to oblivion. Adressed and Adressed[]

adressed

Lol ok so Onoki being wide open attempting to Jinton wouldnt be a mistake? Lets use some logic here. Every character can't make a mistake or they lose.

onoki won't be wide open w/ clones & golems so...