Kakuzu vs Onoki

[super yang]

I address it already:

---

"Having 4 helpers is just as effective. So I dont see how it matters that Hirzuen is more the merrier. The outcome is going to be as effective "

"Same point I said to Apex Hiruzen has more in his arsenal. Yet Hiruzen can just work with his elemental stream+Clones to defeat Onoki. So I fail to see how Mask pressures Onoki just as much, doesnt work. They/He have better aerial then Hiruzen for this match up. Let alone rivaling scale in element streams."

hiruzen clones don't need mobility since rock clones & golems can't compete - they will all be neutralized by enma clones, rai'ton shuriken clones & lightning streams.
and again, clones are expendable

I don't see how it doesn't matter

 

[KingHashirama]

Despite being the strongest kage during Onoki's reign , what can hiruzen do? hmmm there is always RDS.


Now if Onoki vs Hiruzen were too happen in the manga.. it'd simply result in Hiruzen using techniques he hasn't used on screen, and showing why/how he was the strongest kage when he was alive.


If you are taking this out of the manga, and using what Hiruzen has shown only while being alive.. Onoki takes it.

lol PPl actually still thinks Alive old Hiruzen cannot do what Edo did despite edo version being weaker then his alive version... Have you all not learned anything about EDO?

@Bold, fan-fic...........



Don't know how its hard for people to understand that only people who were weaker than their live selves as Edos were Tobirama and Hashirama..

 

[Brother Numpsay]

a still shot of 2 masks jumping over the horizon
notice them in the 4th panel coming over the hill. wind & fire have wings & were shown flying
lightning, water & earth, no

Fire doesn't have wings only wind does look at that panels again. Raiton has shoulder pads[

You must be registered for see links

](along side with Katon), which I wouldnt be surprise if it helps his gliding. Doton is Kakuzu (who can manipulated his Jingou inside him for gliding support). And the logic behind all 3 of their feats transfer to the Suiton Mask.

clones can be on the ground too
the clone can just go underground in a pinch
it matters because only 1 can use rai'ton

No it isn't since Kakuzu Raiton jutsu called Gian is built to slay multiple targets.

masks merge for combos cutting them down to 3(4-2+1) positions including kakuzu while onoki still has 4 or 5 dopplegangers out
except earth is defensive. it can shift submerge & even be reinforced. onoki won't have to worry about it though since they're outnumbered

Nope high scale wipes out numbers. Numbers isnt helping Onoki. Irrelevant if earth is defensive, if its not strong enough shield, the user gets killed

again, mixing mask is losing tactical ability= clone blitz or jin'ton from distance

No isnt. Not when that tactic is to overpower Onoki's jutsu, which it will. No feats of Onoki capable of blitzing them.

Onoki is vulnerable in the air from Mask High scale wind blast. Literally 2 can deal with aerial while Kakuzu and other Mask deals with ground.

clay is clay, not do'ton

[

You must be registered for see links

] [

You must be registered for see links

]

I do believe the bold yes, w/ gian specifically
neutralizing the charge in clay bombs/ baku'ton =/= breaking do'ton

Addressed

onoki won't be wide open w/ clones & golems so...

Well they can't protect him, so he gets blown away along with them.

hiruzen clones don't need mobility since rock clones & golems can't compete - they will all be neutralized by enma clones, rai'ton shuriken clones & lightning streams.
and again, clones are expendable

I don't see how it doesn't matter

You say Hiruzen dont need, that outright proves Kakuzu does which is a major factor to what Hiruzen lacks. So what Hiruzen lacks is made up by what you said. While vise versa for Kakuzu

 

[super yang]

Fire doesn't have wings only wind does look at that panels again. Raiton has shoulder pads[

You must be registered for see links

](along side with Katon), which I wouldnt be surprise if it helps his gliding. Doton is Kakuzu (who can manipulated his Jingou inside him for gliding support). And the logic behind all 3 of their feats transfer to the Suiton Mask.

my bad about the wings, I just went thru te chapter. that was anime filler where it had them. but, no I'm pretty confident in my interpretation of that panel.

No it isn't since Kakuzu Raiton jutsu called Gian is built to slay multiple targets.

but not flying targets that cover 360 degrees, no

so yes it is

Nope high scale wipes out numbers. Numbers isnt helping Onoki. Irrelevant if earth is defensive, if its not strong enough shield, the user gets killed

high scale doesn't wipe out numbers unless all the numbers are in the line of fire. they won't be
it is strong enough imo. & golem is high scale too

No isnt. Not when that tactic is to overpower Onoki's jutsu, which it will. No feats of Onoki capable of blitzing them.

yes feats of:
golem hands appearing out of nowhere - a tactical blitz
nuking w/ jin'ton when masks merge - an anticipatory, prepared tactical blitz
rock clones using flight/weight shift to get behind them when they merge while pressuring the front w/ golems & another clone - a tactical speed blitz

Onoki is vulnerable in the air from Mask High scale wind blast. Literally 2 can deal with aerial while Kakuzu and other Mask deals with ground.

no, hes not vulnerable. he can front w/ a clone & let off cube jin'ton onto the flying wind mask
while the masks are semi-sentient, they aren't intelligent.

Well they can't protect him, so he gets blown away along with them.

of course they can protect them, or rather keep the pressure off of him w/ their actions

You say Hiruzen dont need, that outright proves Kakuzu does which is a major factor to what Hiruzen lacks. So what Hiruzen lacks is made up by what you said. While vise versa for Kakuzu

except I don't believe that 1 mask being able to fly will be that effective.

even if all 4 of them could fly, it still would't matter as onoki & his clones would then just commandeer the ground and battle from there, stacking up earth walls to, tunneling, blindside golem shenanigans, feints into cube jin'tons & even earth sandwhiching on a tactical scale...

...things that simply can't be done against Hiruzens superior tools & tacticts

 

[Haizaki]

Jinton and Golem be the downfall of Kakuzu.

 

[ARGUS]

Onoki wins mid diff

He tagged 5 of Madaras V3 susanoos with weighted Boulder. Kakuzu gets tagged and then turns into a sitting duck for Jinton

If that doesn't happen then Jinton GG either way. Because kakuzus attacks are too slow for a weightless man and with rock clones he falls for Jinton

 

[KidGamer65]

K

The meters Kakuzu was across from Choji and Shiki were more then the length or same[

You must be registered for see links

] of the tree in that location. If hypothetically came down. So ill leave it at that.

The distance between Kakuzu and Choji is nowhere near the length of that tree. :lol I hope you are joking with this.

Its more or the same distance. As their was a tree not far behind them[

You must be registered for see links

]

Not sure how a tree behind them proves that the length of that tree=the distance between Kakuzu and Choji.

I already showed you Ghost jumping/gliding above Buijuu/Boss Summon size charater via Choza

But you've yet to actually show that this takes place before Jinton can be charged.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

my bad about the wings, I just went thru te chapter. that was anime filler where it had them. but, no I'm pretty confident in my interpretation of that panel.

The other Mask are going the same motion as the one with wings.

but not flying targets that cover 360 degrees, no

so yes it is

My quote/rebuttal clearly was addressing Onoki or clones on ground level.

high scale doesn't wipe out numbers unless all the numbers are in the line of fire. they won't be
it is strong enough imo. & golem is high scale too

No matter, as the only target he should focus on, is the only "Onoki" capable of perform lethal ninjutsu. Which clones have no feats using high level Doton by themselves. @Bold is Argument from belief fallacy. You state that because you believe something, it should be assumed to be true, without any actual evidence.

yes feats of:
golem hands appearing out of nowhere - a tactical blitz
nuking w/ jin'ton when masks merge - an anticipatory, prepared tactical blitz
rock clones using flight/weight shift to get behind them when they merge while pressuring the front w/ golems & another clone - a tactical speed blitz

-Thats not blitzing. Plus the fact that Jingou easily eats through bed rock, and can travel under neath.

-Me mentioning Merging power was concerning dealing with anything Onoki does on the ground with Doton. Otherwise a single element was stated in my premise for interruption.

- Except were going to just ignore that Kakuzu isnt here to fight either. Considering he has Jingou plus Domu (harder substance than Onoki's Doton) they get owned

no, hes not vulnerable. he can front w/ a clone & let off cube jin'ton onto the flying wind mask
while the masks are semi-sentient, they aren't intelligent.

They can be as intelligent based on Kakuzu's command. As we witness Kakuzu's tactic with Hidan to land Futon against Kakshi.

of course they can protect them, or rather keep the pressure off of him w/ their actions

You have no idea how much power these clones have to actually help and pressure Kakuzu. So I have no idea what actions you think will stop them.

except I don't believe that 1 mask being able to fly will be that effective.

even if all 4 of them could fly, it still would't matter as onoki & his clones would then just commandeer the ground and battle from there, stacking up earth walls to, tunneling, blindside golem shenanigans, feints into cube jin'tons & even earth sandwhiching on a tactical scale...

...things that simply can't be done against Hiruzens superior tools & tacticts

All which are fan fic, as you have no idea how much power a Rock Clone has. Heck it could be worst then a Water Clone for all we know.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

The distance between Kakuzu and Choji is nowhere near the length of that tree. :lol I hope you are joking with this.

The smaller the character looks from a point of view = the distance they are at in comparison.

[

You must be registered for see links

] Im not geometric expert, but base on trees (closer to Kakuzu) on the side were to be put down, that should cover the length inbetween Kakuzu and Choji/Shik

Not sure how a tree behind them proves that the length of that tree=the distance between Kakuzu and Choji.

I dont remember where I was going with this.

But you've yet to actually show that this takes place before Jinton can be charged.

Jumping towards Onoki is faster then Jinton charge. Yet alone, Atsuga hardly showing any charge. This can literally be the same scenario with Muu vs KCM Naruto.

 

[super yang]

The other Mask are going the same motion as the one with wings.

no, the winged mask is the only one w/o a ''jump mark'' denotation

edit: well no, when you blow up the picture all three mask have the jump mark, sorry

My quote/rebuttal clearly was addressing Onoki or clones on ground level.

they aren,t stuck to the ground & they still cover all 360 degrees

No matter, as the only target he should focus on, is the only "Onoki" capable of perform lethal ninjutsu. Which clones have no feats using high level Doton by themselves. @Bold is Argument from belief fallacy. You state that because you believe something, it should be assumed to be true, without any actual evidence.

lethal implies life
masks are not alive and can be killed in very docile fashion by clones
i've already explained the versatility of myriad earthen defenses.
their objective is to avoid being hit by fire & wind. does'nt matter if some of them break - if onoki is stacking & sliding walls, tunneling & rolling boulders back at them all the while

-Thats not blitzing. Plus the fact that Jingou easily eats through bed rock, and can travel under neath.

-Me mentioning Merging power was concerning dealing with anything Onoki does on the ground with Doton. Otherwise a single element was stated in my premise for interruption.

- Except were going to just ignore that Kakuzu isnt here to fight either. Considering he has Jingou plus Domu (harder substance than Onoki's Doton) they get owned

you can call it what U want
as long as a mask gets occupied to disrupt, then onokis has gained an advantage
nah, kakuzu would be immobilized for a bit by the golem hand & when he recovered, shet will have hit the fan

They can be as intelligent based on Kakuzu's command. As we witness Kakuzu's tactic with Hidan to land Futon against Kakshi.

but the're outnumbered & there must be a delay as kakuzu has only one mind

You have no idea how much power these clones have to actually help and pressure Kakuzu. So I have no idea what actions you think will stop them.

they have the power to use any jutsu but jin'ton, wind stream & fire stream.
while not as strong/jutsu as their caster, they are just as skilled, agile & intelligent.
and they started out using flight/weight shift

All which are fan fic, as you have no idea how much power a Rock Clone has. Heck it could be worst then a Water Clone for all we know.

just adressed

 

[Braiyan]

Bro, not sure what part your agreeing with him. His premise is to make Kakuzu fight completely dumb, yet alone not capable of muli tasking. Both Mask and Kakuzu are focused on a single jutsu alone? Makes no sense. And poor representation of Kakuzu.

Somehow you missed the part where I stated Onoki can just as easily create a Rock Clone along with the Rock Golem (which can easily be

You must be registered for see links

, by the way) to deceive Kakuzu, seeing that clone feints were what led to him losing in the first place, and Onoki's clones happen to have the advantage of flight. Or he could create

You must be registered for see links

and still have Kakuzu distracted enough to launch Jinton.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

no, the winged mask is the only one w/o a ''jump mark'' denotation

edit: well no, when you blow up the picture all three mask have the jump mark, sorry

And then the bottom panel shows them gliding after their jump.

they aren,t stuck to the ground & they still cover all 360 degrees

IDC what you are changing up. This quote because(ME):

"No it isn't since Kakuzu Raiton jutsu called Gian is built to slay multiple targets."

Was specifically addressing this quote(YOU):

"clones can be on the ground too
the clone can just go underground in a pinch
it matters because only 1 can use rai'ton"

lethal implies life
masks are not alive and can be killed in very docile fashion by clones
i've already explained the versatility of myriad earthen defenses.
their objective is to avoid being hit by fire & wind. does'nt matter if some of them break - if onoki is stacking & sliding walls, tunneling & rolling boulders back at them all the while

@Bold, lets not fabricate manga[

You must be registered for see links

]. @underline: It took element advantage to take out raiton heart, Mask has tanked Choji's Palm attack, which at best Onoki's Golem can produce that kind of damage output (even though Im being nice nice Golem has no feats of such).

You premise fails because these defense or Doton elements arent capable of stopping Kakuzu's comb attacks. Kakuzu Katon is specifically design to take away enemies footing. Add Wind for combustion and theses tunneling and walls fail to block and keep Onoki safe.

you can call it what U want
as long as a mask gets occupied to disrupt, then onokis has gained an advantage
nah, kakuzu would be immobilized for a bit by the golem hand & when he recovered, shet will have hit the fan

Call it what I want? The rebuttals clearly shows that Kakuzu is taken care of. Golem has no feats and gets over powered by Kakuzu own Doton via Jingou+Domu, so theres no immobilizing from it.

but the're outnumbered & there must be a delay as kakuzu has only one mind

Again irreverent that they are outnumbered. Most of them are non factors and only lead to distractions. Which I already address isnt a problem for Kakuzu. 1 mind with 4 hearts that can act as its own separate organism. So it doesnt matter

they have the power to use any jutsu but jin'ton, wind stream & fire stream.
while not as strong/jutsu as their caster, they are just as skilled, agile & intelligent.
and they started out using flight/weight shift

@Bold Proof? And once I get that proof:
1. Proof that his stream is stronger or equal than Kakuzu's?
2. Proof that they are just as skilled and agile then the original? As in how much chakra is put into them?

Till then you have no point.

just adressed

You addressed them by giving them random feats they dont have? Thats not a proper addressed.

Somehow you missed the part where I stated Onoki can just as easily create a Rock Clone along with the Rock Golem (which can easily be

You must be registered for see links

, by the way) to deceive Kakuzu, seeing that clone feints were what led to him losing in the first place, and Onoki's clones happen to have the advantage of flight. Or he could create

You must be registered for see links

and still have Kakuzu distracted enough to launch Jinton.

Except the scenario is different then Naruto. As clones are attacking close range while Onoki's only threat is long range.

So Kakuzu priorities is the one that actually has to stay back and fire Jinton, since Clones arent capable.

 

[Draegod]

This thread is still going on? Lol onoki wins period! Not just jinton he has ways of besting kuzu, jinton eventually rapes. With flight speed rivaling deidara fastest arial speed no way if he losing.

 

[Zexion~]

Cylinder Jinton ends Kakuzu regardless though, but even then i'd still give it a mid-high diff for Onoki, as he'd be pressured by the masks.

 

[Draegod]

Cylinder Jinton ends Kakuzu regardless though, but even then i'd still give it a mid-high diff for Onoki, as he'd be pressured by the masks.

If this man admits defeat it's literally no hope for kuzu considering zex would defend kuzu till the end of time against Oden himself!! Lmao

 

[Brother Numpsay]

If this man admits defeat it's literally no hope for kuzu considering zex would defend kuzu till the end of time against Oden himself!! Lmao

Your just poisoning the well arent cha

 

[Draegod]

Your just poisoning the well arent cha

What's his victory clause?

 

[Brother Numpsay]

What's his victory clause?

- Wind Mask deals with aerial via Jinton interference. If it so happen to dodge it, the gale force ruins his flight course. Then its pretty much GG after.

- Kakuzu deals with Onoki's Doton by overpowering it with Domu (harder and stronger substance then Onoki's own Doton) or Raiton neutralizes them.

 

[KidGamer65]

The smaller the character looks from a point of view = the distance they are at in comparison.

[

You must be registered for see links

] Im not geometric expert, but base on trees (closer to Kakuzu) on the side were to be put down, that should cover the length inbetween Kakuzu and Choji/Shik

Except you have literally no way to show that this is the case.

You must be registered for see links

is not the length of

You must be registered for see links

let alone twice that. This should be clear just by looking at the scan.

Jumping towards Onoki is faster then Jinton charge. Yet alone, Atsuga hardly showing any charge. This can literally be the same scenario with Muu vs KCM Naruto.

Not relevant since they have to get close enough and then release their jutsu, which also has to hit before Jinton is fired. And no, not even close unless they are the same distance away. Also not relevant unless Onoki leaves himself wide open, but considering he has

-Clones
-Rock Golem

I'm going to go ahead and say that he'll be fine here.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Except you have literally no way to show that this is the case.

You must be registered for see links

is not the length of

You must be registered for see links

let alone twice that. This should be clear just by looking at the scan.

Then I suggest you use the actual scan I post to compare it, as you already know the length of the hollow trees rivals the length of Buijuus/Boss Summon. So let me draw it out for you:

You must be registered for see images

I gave arrows to the trees im talking about

Red= The alignment of two trees next to Kakuzu.
Blue= Use this to measure the distance it will fall.

- If the tree landing right next to Choji/Shiki is true, by scaling/pixel, then the length inbetween him and Kakuzu are Buijuu length.

- If its shorter, I would like to know how you gone to that conclusion.

@Crossout I dropped that points its not relevant to me.

Not relevant since they have to get close enough and then release their jutsu, which also has to hit before Jinton is fired. And no, not even close unless they are the same distance away. Also not relevant unless Onoki leaves himself wide open, but considering he has

-Clones
-Rock Golem

I'm going to go ahead and say that he'll be fine here.

Its relevant because the feats of leaping that far in a instant, yet alone a single roar will activate the jutsu is going to hit before Jinton is fired.

Golems is only strong on ground. Without Earth source, its best at tanking C1.
Clones can't do sht, as Wind only target is the Onoki capable of using Jinton. A wind stream blows any of him in his main target