1. Blitzed is blitzed, regardless of where Kaguya's chakra lvl was at the time. It's her own fault that she constantly changed the dimensions at the rate that she did in an effort to gain an edge.
2. You and plenty of others in this thread seemed to have misinterpreted BZ's statement. He said she got a STR & SPD boost. He said nothing about her speed being proportionate to her chakra lvls.
If that was the case, then she still should've been more than able to blitz anybody there since she still had enough juice to create a TSB that was large enough to make that PS look like a dot.
The wank I'm seeing here is burning the shit out of my eyes. Everytime a strategy or team work is being done, Kishimoto always shows it. Then there is this fact that Naruto was blitzing in front of her. Sasuke will teleport Naruto behind her if that ability really does exist. These points are already enough to destroy this presupposition of yours. Especially since different SFXs can be used.
Saying the lack of prior discussion of a plan is irrelevant as well as treating Sasuke's failed ST blitz attack as irrelevant. If I put a gun to your head, the barrel of the gun literally touching your forehead, how would you dodge that? ST brings the attacker in close proximity to make dodging impossible. Unless you're, of course, Kaguya or Naruto. Sasuke simply was not fast enough. Obito did not know Minato was about to teleport to him and attack and neither did Madara but their high speed allowed them counter regardless. On the other hand, Obito did know Minato was already above him, Just like A already knew Minato was above him, but both were unable to do aaaaanything because they weren't fast enough. The knowledge doesn't matter if you're too slow and Sasuke was cuz his ST blitz is not fast enough to touch Kaguya
If Naruto evading kaguya wasn't a feat why would she compliment him? I guess Sakura could do it. What have I explained about ST techs. Prior knowledge doesn't matter because of the immense speed. Unless the target is faster.
Now you're trying to support your theory with more theorising....saying Sasuke doesn't have the cool down after three tries the manga showed he had.
I'll say it again Your position is a very unlikely one since it involves
off panel telepathic planning
miraculous succeeding of an ST blitz that already failed just moments before and had
failed before.
Damn are you insecure or what? This thread has nothing to do with Sasuke, but since you want to bring him up...
This thread does nothing but establish the misconception about SASUKE and Naruto. It was generally accepted that Sasuke > Naruto in speed (can't get faster then instant) while Naruto > Sasuke in footspeed. But with the facts OP has provided it is now evident that Sasuke > Naruto in footspeed, as Narto has no feats (now that this Kaguya one has been debunked) that compares to Sasuke blitzing 1 eyed JJ Madara.
Summary: as of this thread: Sasuke > Naruto in footspeed and speed while Naruto > Sasuke in terms of reaction speed (Sasuke has no noteworthy reaction feats).
Also, in response to your other point. Kaguya was actively targetting Sasuke throughout the battle. Possibly because she deemed him more of a threat. She didn't start taking Naruto seriously till he showcased his feat with the multi shadow clone jutsu.
Get off his nuts, at least he used manga scans to back his argument
Bold is literally the dumbest to ever come out of your mouth
So Kakashi can react to Kamui because he can use Kamui, but if he can't he's not using it right?
Please don't respond to me again, I'll be sure to never debate against you ever again
Ok, I'll agree to disagree, can't see where it's quite clear that he has the ability to teleport people but I can't refute that he didn't. You might be right about that
Dude, if you can't react to the speed you are moving at, then you can't use it properly because you wouldn't be able to perceive the world around you. Sasuke can use Ameno properly. What does that tell you?
The arrival of the fap brigade. Don't reply unless you have something to add that isn't fapable. Seeing as how you are or were affiliated with SB, I doubt that
Just like there is nothing disproving that he did. Saying that there have always been distinction from the manga to when it happens is irrelevant, that like saying that just because there have been distinctions to when Sasuke prepares Enton before then he must not have used it on the Juubi minions here even though he clearly did.
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Similarly, saying that you didn't see Sasuke do anything prior to it is irrelevant because we didn't see Minato do anything prior to teleporting the Juubi's Bijuu bomb or right afterwards. That does not disprove the argument in any way.
Good for him. I don't think I ever said that Naruto wasn't very fast or didn't have good reflexes.
The mere fact that it distorts space means that it can affectively be used as a space-time Ninjutsu, this is fact regardless of what you call it. Also wrong, Guy had gotten close to Madara to use Evening elephant, the movement itself is not evening elephant.
It's true that the manga didn't show Sasuke preparing that jutsu, but the manga did show Sasuke using that jutsu. That's the point, the manga showed Sasuke using that jutsu. When Naruto attack Kaguya there is no indication Sasuke used his S/T jutsu. The manga didn't show, indicate, or even imply that Sasuke used his S/T jutsu at all. All you have is SFX, that are commonly used with S/T Jutsu, being used when Naruto attacked Kaguya. That is not enough evidence because SFX alone have never been used to show, indicate or imply a certain jutsu being used.
Then their's Guy's situation that completely destroys your theory. Guy, who doesn't possess a S/T jutsu, had the same SFX when he used the 8th Gate -
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that Naruto did when he attacked Kaguya -
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- It's represents the level and quickness of their speed. It's like their speed is instant. That's the reason Naruto was able to hit Kaguya using physical speed, while Sasuke failed using a S/T jutsu.
You keep talking about Guy's ability to bend space, but that still isn't a S/T jutsu. Guy was still using physical speed. Besides, when the manga showed Guy with those "S/T jutsu" SFX Guy wasn't bending space at that time. That didn't occur until later during his battle against Madara. So, you can use that to support your theory because it wasn't being used at that time Guy was showed with "S/T jutsu" SFX , not that it supports it. You are trying to force facts to support your theory.
Good morning/afternoon/evening everyone. It has been a while.
I have noticed that quite a few (many) people are confused about what actually happened in chapter 687 when Naruto cut-off Kaguya's arm, which is understandable to some degree, so I thought I should make this thread to help clarifying a bit. But first, since I know some people will undeniably jump to conclusions :
By no means am I trying to downplay Naruto's speed, or strip him of one of his feats. I always give credit where it's due and this regardless of which character or even series is being discussed, Naruto is not an exception. So while reading please keep in mind that the only purpose of this thread is correcting a flawed misinterpretation that has, unfortunately, been around for too long doing the series more harm than good, both debates wise and consistency wise.
With that out of the way, we can start.
The misconception : Naruto is faster than Kaguya and can just speed blitz her
Origin :
Back in chapter 687 we saw a pissed off Naruto seemingly blitzing Kaguya and cutting her arm off.
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Flawed interpretation :
Naruto is fast enough to rush all the way towards Kaguya and cut her arm off faster than she could react. He is simply too fast for her and could have solo'd her if not for the sealing requirement.
Explanation & Counter Argument:
As I previously said, it's rather easy for people to misinterpret what happened in this instance, especially since Kaguya was never very liked (being polite here) or respected as a villain and people would rather hype the protagonist than justify the villains low-end feat. However, there is some context behind this feat that needs to be taken into account to get an objective view of what happened.
1) Kaguya slowed down due to being low on chakra :
I think that this is an obvious fact to anyone who read the fight. During the battle Kaguya was seen repetitively using her S-T jutsu Amenominaka, which is a justu that consumes massive amounts of chakra as stated by Black Zetsu.
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This was later confirmed by both Obito and Sasuke on two separate occasions :
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And as explained by BZ, Kaguya's speed and strength are proportional to how much chakra she has left :
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So one can safely say that Naruto would not be able to replicate the feat against a standard Kaguya, which seems obvious considering how he needed to use distractions to tag her previously.
2) Naruto did not reach Kaguya through sheer speed, he was teleported by Sasuke.
I know that some people must be like 'lol what ?' after reading this, but judging by the manga this is indeed what happened. What makes this obvious is the fact that Kishimoto has consistently been shown to use two distinct SFXs for speed/Shunshin jutsus and Space-time Ninjutsu.
For instance here are a few examples of people using Shunshin/speed, notice the SFX used.
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And here are instances of people using S-T ninjutsu, notice that a different SFX is used.
Hiraishin :
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Amenominaka :
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Amenotejikira :
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Now comparing to the SFX shown when Naruto 'blitzed' Kaguya :
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That SFX is very clearly the one used for Space-time Ninjutsu, so unless Naruto has some unknown S-T jutsu which he can only use once in his life, I think that it's more logical to assume that Sasuke who was next to him and happens to be a S-T ninjutsu user teleported him.
Certainly, there have been instances of missing SFXs before, so before the argument shows up let me just say that the lack of S-T SFX in these instance, like Madara getting stabbed by the teleported sword for example, is due to a more important, louder or simply more recent SFX taking it's place, and that this does not in any way affect the solidity of the argument, as it's quite normal for a 'getting stabbed' SFX to be present in a scene where someone got stabbed even in the S-T SFX is not present, but one can't say that it's normal for a space-time teleportation SFX to be found where (supposedly) no S-T took place.
Once again, I'd like to point out that this thread isn't meant to downplay Naruto in any way and I certainly hope that people will not derail it into some Naruto vs Sasuke speed debate because that has nothing to do with what I'm discussing.
uh, whats the matter of this thread ? If he was able or not able to hit her if she wasnt full chakra ? No one knows if Naruto was on Full chakra. I dont get it, does it even matter if she was or not ? I mean in the end she lost he arm. Everything else will be irrelevant because there will never be a full proof for Naruto to use blitz or getting teleported. but i mean who cares ?
I'm gonna have to agree with Shimisama's Statement above. Now don't get me wrong, I am not saying Kaguya would have still lost her arm had she been at full strength but there are a few things here that others have mentioned that are being dismissed that puts holes in the OP's theory:
1) Sasuke used Aminojekara on Naruto for a speed boost. What the OP posted is not proof but a speculation (albiet a nice one) but it just didn't happen. Why? Given Kisi's style and MO of teamwork, there is no doubt in my mind that Sasuke would have appeared in a panel showning him using the tech on Naruto. Even if it wasn't shown. Naruto and Sasuke would have at least looked at each other and nodded beforehand prior to this teamwork taking place. Kishi does not deal in off panels of communication (or lack thereof) especially when it's between Naruto and Sasuke at any point in the manga.
2) Kaguya was low on chakra. True she was...But everyone there was. Naruto, Sasuke, Sakura, kakashi, and Obito all have been fighting a war prior to her appearance. So yes Kaguya was low on Chakra, and so was Naruto. Hell Naruto had Shadow Clones about so in addition to not having a full tank, his tank was divided amongst the clones.
3.) The fact that Naruto managed to guage a godly opponent to the point he knew he could blitz her and take her arm is a testiment of Naruto's level of observation at the very least.
4.) The FX. While your keen eye caught this (very good find by the way) I'm not sure how to take this so I will give this one to you in support of your thread as you were astute enough to actually catch this (much less find scans to base your claim on)
All and all though this is not a bad thready in the slightest and I don't take it as you bashing or down playing Naruto. More to the point of trying to allow kaguya to save some face here.....
So your theory is that Sasuke teleported Naruto to Kaguya who couldn't react due to low chakra. However this is flawed as:
Sasuke could quite have easily teleportd himself to Kaguya and done the same by that logic and yet he never touched her throughout the fight. Ever. Plus Naruto would have to be in on the plan which he absolutely wasn't.
Kaguya was perfectly capable of creating a world destroying Godoudama few moments after, poking a hole in the low chakra theory.
you guys are idiots. all that is when naruto blitzes kaguya, is shunshin, not teleportation from sasuke. just like in the scan below. bending space happens only during night moth not evening elephant which that scan is showing is even pre-evening elephant. those two fxs simply mean "dash sounds" ... that's it.
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again... "dash sounds"/ "fast movement sounds" ... nothing to do with jutsu pairing... thinking that they are, is purely idiotic. just because japanese has harigana doesn't mean those scribbles mean more than actual noises like vrooom or skuuuurrrr or beeep beeep.
