Kagustuchi
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Though like I said, the best we have is "he got faster" without much way to say how much.
Gadien Sasuke(no sage chakra) VS BSM Minato
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Though like I said, the best we have is "he got faster" without much way to say how much.
KidGamer65
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Kagustuchi
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Either way, shouldn't be a big enough diffrence to mess with the scaling. I could see Sasuke landing a hit on KCM Minato without the SM. Though with it, his reactions would definately be pushed above Naruto's lone BM
In terms of speed I always thought it was
Base Minato > > > > Base Naruto
Give them both KCM/BM/BSM and Minato would still be superior so how can Sasuke land a hit on KCM Minato who should logically be tiers above KCM Naruto. Since you mentioned KCM Minato I'm assuming you're talking about him and Sasuke being in human form, not the avatars.
KidGamer65
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^ Despite having KCM, Sasuke and Naruto were keeping up with Minato when it comes to reaction speed during the War Arc.
Kagustuchi
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@Lucky Man
This. Minato may possibly have an edge in Shunshin, but there's definately not much a gap in reactions or footspeed. There's honestly an instance where Sasuke reacts faster than Minato, then there's an instance where Naruto reacts almost as fast as Minato using FTG.
Actually, it certainly does as Naruto gains further control over Kurama's own Chakra and is able to muster more of it as a result to greatly enhance his strength as stated here:
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It's also important to note that the moment the cage opened was the moment Naruto awakened his Bijuu Mode State which Naruto hadn't manifested Kurama at that point yet, so he certainly did receive a power-up.
Not to mention Kurama and Naruto's own chakras actually mold together instead of Kurama's Chakra resisting Naruto's which would result in a further boost in power.
Sure it does when the context of it was to display BM Naruto's improvement in comparison to KCM Naruto.
Not to mention BM Naruto actually has far more consistent speed feats such as his Flicker used against the Bijuudama as well as his Flicker to intercept Madara and Obito.
KidGamer65
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You have a point as I've already admitted, but once again, your reasons aren't legit. Yes, Naruto's chakra in Kurama Mode>Naruto's Chakra in KCM, but we aren't talking about Kurama Mode Naruto. We are talking about KCM. Kurama gave him chakra to enter BM, which his him+the Avatar.
Yes. Naruto got a power up. Kurama Mode. Opening the cage isn't proof that he got a massive speed boost. Kurama's chakra doesn't resist Naruto's when he's using KCM. Not even sure what you are talking about here.
Except that wasn't the context. You are assuming that it was the context.
More consistent speed=/=Faster speed.
It's not. Naruto awakened that State once the cage separating Kurama and Naruto opened and that was prior to ever seeing Naruto manifesting Kurama.
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Hachibi essentially implies that Naruto mastered control over Kurama prior to manifesting Kurama.
It is. Greater Chakra Control due to Kurama and Naruto's Chakra molding together along with a greater Chakra Output yields a greater speed boost. It's similar to the power attained going from V2 to V1. V2 has a greater Chakra output which yields a greater boost in speed as a result.
But yes, Kurama does resist Naruto's Chakra, hence why they're engaged in a tug-of-war relationship. Hell, it's always been like that until Naruto mastered Kurama as he had to have a strong enough chakra in order to resist Kurama's own Chakra. In this case, Naruto's willingly accepting Kurama's Chakra, but Kurama is not, so essentially, the role has switched.
Sure it was. It debuted Naruto's mastery of Kurama's Chakra and emphasized his new-found power which he never had prior to attaining his Kyuubi Cloak Mode.
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Gai even went as far as to question if that was truly Naruto. A statement like that warrants a major power-up.
I suppose you're correct. It'd be more accurate to say BM Naruto would be more reflexive as a result as he can perform more consistently on that speed tier relative to KCM Naruto.
KidGamer65
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You make some good points here, but:
-Gai had never seen Naruto's speed in action. So no, that doesn't warrant a major power up.
-Mastering Bijuu Mode has nothing to do with chakra control. Him and Kurama have just become comrades. Though I've already agreed that you were right when you said BM offers better chakra control since Naruto can make one handed Rasengan and FRS in BM, but not in KCM.
-Yeah, bold refers to the whole power up. Not just speed. Chapter 571 focused on the debut of Naruto's Bijuu Mode. Not his speed.
Overall, I'll agree that Naruto's speed has increased enough to make it nocticable, but no feat proves that it's a major boost.
TRE MERCER
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Before i proceed to stomp this post i have to say why is it filled with so much rage?
Correction he didn't appear on their techs is what you meant right? Anyways yes he did the scan is backing me up on this your trying to manipulate the scan and twist it to your finding but in-fact there was no movement until Madara was already spawned on the attack. Also Manga disagrees with bold.(
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). Your doing nothing but fighting the Manga here and it isn't going to get you anywhere. Even if the sword was moved by Ameno it will still be the same here. Ameno takes Minato right out of the Kurama avatar i've explained this multiple times why must i repeat myself? Did he spawn Kaguya like he did Madara nope and the 2nd time he teleported near her plus they were still in the gravity dimension where is weights you down thus his speed was decreased.(
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). Nuff said next!!!!!Did you see he was clearly out of arms reach.(
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). Even his arm fully extended couldn't reach her this doesn't help you moot point your trying to make. Enough with the insults i need you to give me counters to the argument. BOLD is what im trying to prove to you. Concede for what ill gladly concede if im won over by one of your arguments but this is mostly insults and you trying to deny the Manga.Your the one crying l0l you ignored the question if non core CT's are truly a product of Hagoromo chakra then why did Madara's still have a core? Yes that's with a big Avatar/Construct.
How does any of this relate to CT? Your really started to russle my jimmies on how clueless your acting.
Your only spitting this non-sense because you have no counter l00l. Ameno to switch places with the Flash Bijuudama. BM Naruto has standard Bijuudama's as well. Didn't we already go throw this? Sasuke Ps will be = to His Kurama. I've already explained why Bijuu can take there Bijuudama's and Ps = his Kurama avatar therefore it tanks his Bijuudama.
When did i say a standard Bijuudama was = to a flash please shut up. Im stupid AF calm down kid. Who the hell are to selectively pick apart feats he can and can't perform? Your only saying he can't perform it because you can't counter it simple. Who the hell is my best bud?
No, his Avatar will. Smh. Can you read?
-Scans showing PS failing to hurt Kurama with it's sword slash, the strongest thing Sasuke has available in this thread.
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Uchiha **********s argued that EMS Sasuke would chop through Naruto's tails like they were butter or something, but when canon takes a fat dump on their face, they ignore it and continue on with their BS wet dream fantasies. Sasuke hit Naruto's tails 3-4 times, yet no tail was even injured. How the hell is he going to "one shot" Minato's Avatar like you and your buddy have been saying when Minato has a Senjutsu boost here and Sasuke has no boost. His PS is on par with the BM Avatar at best, and he can't even hurt that unless Naruto/Minato were to sit there and let him land a bunch of direct hits, let alone the BSM Avatar.
[/QUOTE]
Not when he can use Ameno to pull Minato right out of the Kurama avatar. Correction his PS is on par with the BSM avatar seeing as Naruto's was juiced with Frog SM here as well. I never stated it would chop through Kurama tails not once did i say that. I said one shot Minato your reading comp is utter garbage.
[/QUOTE]
All those scans were irrelevant why because he didn't pull Kaguya to him in any of the scans provided so it was useless to post them. Once again were comparing Kaguya reactions to Minato's.
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Unfortunately, considering how well the Jins could react with Precognition and the Rinnegan's Field of Vision, there'd be no real opportunity for KCM Naruto to utilize Shunshin, so using Gai and Kakashi's reaction to BM Naruto's speed feat is all we've got.
However, what we can do is compare both scenarios where both utilized their Flicker.
This is BM Naruto's:
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While this is KCM Naruto's:
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While both contain expressions of shock, it's clear that based on the magnitude of the force caused by BM Naruto's Flicker along with Gai's expression towards Naruto's speed along with Obito's expression of shock despite having witnessed Minato's speed before seems to imply a massive boost. I guess it's just open to interpretation, but BM Naruto's feat seemed to have more of an impact.
Except Mastering Bijuu Mode (in Naruto's case) yielded superior chakra control as he is capable of molding his Chakra with Kurama with his own along with the fact that he can muster up more chakra and output more Chakra despite remaining in his human state. But yeah, those would be feats of better chakra control like you mentioned along with the fact that he perfected the Bijuudama which is simply a result of maintaing a perfect ratio between Yin and Yang Chakra which KCM Naruto failed to accomplish earlier.
But Gai and Kakashi both were astonished by his speed and it was mostly Naruto's speed that allowed him to deflect 5 Bijuudama at the last second. I agree it was more of a portrayal of power, but Kishimoto also wanted to portray his increase in speed if he had him deflect 5 mountain-busting attacks with just sheer speed alone.
I don't know. In terms of constant speed, it's likely not major, but in terms of Shunshin which is dependant on Chakra Control and Chakra Quantity, I would like to say it does.
KidGamer65
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Smh. Once again. Your arguments are trash.TRE MERCER;19284252Correction he didn't appear on their techs is what you meant right? Anyways yes he did the scan is backing me up on this your trying to manipulate the scan and twist it to your finding but in-fact there was no movement until Madara was already spawned on the attack. Also Manga disagrees with bold.([URL="http://i.stack.imgur.com/79Sth.jpg" said:
1. I've already proven that there was movement. You've just replied with the same thing that I already replied to. Sasuke and Naruto had to thrust their attacks to hit Madara. Sasuke and Naruto hit him hard enough to make impact marks, shown on Madara's sides where he was struck. That's movement. Madara didn't spawn onto their attack. If he spawned onto their attack then he wouldn't have been hit hard enough to actually do that. By this shitty ass logic Konohamaru would be able to blitz Kaguya with Ameno because "she'd spawn on his attack". I guess the Manga being in still picture has really confused people who don't have the intellectual capacity to read it correctly. Smh.
2. The bold is another statement with no evidence behind it.
3. Sasuke used Ameno the same way he did against Kaguya in Chapter 683. Yet she escaped. Madara wasn't fast enough to, that's why he got hit. It's really that simple. It's you children who keep making excuses, pretending that Ameno has a hidden function that allows you to spawn your enemy on your attack even though if this function were real, Sasuke wouldn't have gotten his ass dodged by Kaguya twice in the same battle, especially since the second time she was weakened.
4. If his arm (which is moving downward) was being weighed down by the gravity, he'd actually be approaching Kaguya faster than he normally would. Then there's the fact that she switched dimensions, thus cancelling the gravity effect, and she still managed to evade his attack.
5. Zero proof that Ameno can warp Minato out of his Avatar. Him and his Avatar are connected. Shit isn't like Susanoo. Even if it did, Sasuke can't blitz him. He'd just react and teleport to safety with ease. He can't swap Minato out of his Avatar and use Ameno's sword stabbing function since you need to swap with the weapon for it to work. So if that was what you were thinking, get that thought out of your head. It makes no sense.
Which is irrelevant since Sasuke had already jumped off his platform and was moving towards Kaguya's position at that same speed, yet he couldn't get her before she reacted. Just like he couldn't
Who said that him teleporting is any slower? Smh.
That's Madara. What Madara can or can't do without Hagoromo's power has nothing to do with what Sasuke can do with or without Hagoromo's chakra. Not to mention Madara had to use cores in that situation since he wanted to make over a dozen CT orbs and drop them on the opponent. If he didn't use cores, he'd have to find over a dozen things he can make into the core like Sasuke did, which would be more time consuming and purely idiotic.
So once again. Get me a panel of Sasuke or anyone using coreless CT w/o Rikudo's Chakra and then we can talk. Until then, gtfo. That simple.
Stop giving a buffed Sasuke's feats to a non buffed Sasuke. That simple.
So he switches places with the Flash Bijuu Dama and it soars past him. Then Minato fires another one and since he can't use Ameno in succession, he gets hit. Failure of a strategy when it comes to the long term battle.
No shit Sherlock. Care to tell me anything else that is irrelevant?
What are you even talking about? Lmao. You sound mighty retarded here kid. You explained why Bijuu can take their smallest Bijuu Dama and survive. That has nothing to do with BM Naruto being able to take his Flash Bijuu Dama with zero damage. BM Naruto nor BSM Naruto can tank a direct Flash BD with zero damage so why the hell would Sasuke's PS be able to do so? Especially since downscaling from VoTE 2 proves that his PS gets half it's face, a wing and parts of it's torso blown away by the combination of a standard BD and a PS Chidori, which are equal. Take away Hagoromo's power from both, and you are left with:
-EMS Sasuke vs. BM Naruto.
-100% Kurama sized standard BD=PS Chidori.
-PS and BM taking a direct hit lose parts of their body.
Flash BD>>>>>Standard BD x2. Thus Flash BD does worse. Multiple Flash BD's rip apart Sasuke's Susanoo. What's worse is that Minato has Senjutsu here while Sasuke doesn't. Thus his Avatar>>Sasuke's Avatar in power.
-States that Minato's Flash BD is swatted away because BM Naruto could swat away Standard BD.
-Implying that Flash BD=Standard BD.
Lmao.
Smartest thing you've probably said in your whole entire life.
I'm saying he can't perform it because he can't. When you have scans of Rinnegan Sasuke w/o Hagoromo's chakra doing any of this shit, get at me. Until then, keep the whining to yourself. I guess you must've learned how to moan and whine from your buddy 2 pages back, since I almost feel like I'm debating the same person.
But of course dumbed down, assuming that's even possible.
We all know who your best bud/other half/friend to the end is. Lmao. I bet you guys are watching Naruto on Toonami right now thinking of ways to come up with even shittier arguments.
Based on what again?
You guys need to learn how Senjutsu works. There is no "Toad Senjutsu+Rikudo Senjutsu". Naruto's RSM is his Toad Sage Mode, but the Senjutsu Chakra he uses is NOT the Senjutsu he gathers from the Earth. It is the Senjutsu Hagoromo gave him. Do you see him sitting there and taking in Nature Energy like he used to? No. Because instead of using that, he uses the power Hagoromo gave him to enter RSM. Hence the lack of pigmentation.
RSM Naruto=Naruto+Kurama+Half of Hagoromo's Power+8 pieces of the other Bijuu. Not: Naurto+Toad SM+Kurama+Half of Hagoromo's Power+Other Bijuu.
Rikudo Kurama Avatar
He warped Kaguya to him the first time they used Ameno, yet he failed to tag her. He warped right to her, yet failed to tag her. End of story. If you are fast enough, Ameno won't blitz you. That's why Naruto didn't get blitzed by Ameno. That's why Kaguya didn't get blitzed either. You fanboys are disappointed with the feats Sasuke has shown, so you ignore every other Ameno instance and then take advantage of the fact that the Manga is in still pictures and say that "he instantaneously blitzed Madara". Even though he couldn't do the same to Naruto or Kaguya.
Then there's the fact that Hiraishin's teleportation is the same as Ameno's outside the fact that Minato needs a marking, and fans went on saying that he can instantaneously blitz anyone with it since no striking speed is required, but JJ Obito reacted to Hiraishin twice. And both times he was marked. Which should've been an "instant blitz" as we had originally thought, but it wasn't. People only claimed "instant" because Minato was too fast for Obito the first time around. The second time around Obito was too fast for Minato.
Once again. I'm going to explain to your unintelligent illiterate ass why Kaguya's reaction speed is irrelevant.
Kaguya's reaction speed is irrelevant. The point is, if what you were saying made any damn sense, then Kaguya wouldn't have evaded him twice. Kaguya did so because she is fast enough to react to Rinnegan Sasuke. Just how Sasuke w/o Hagoromo's power is slower than BSM Minato.
KidGamer65
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BM Naruto's feat had a much bigger impact because:
-He was in a situation where it looked like they were finished.
-He deflected 5 Bijuu Dama. This is the major reason why.
His speed is a part of the impact, but the whole impact is because of the overall feat, not because Naruto is so much faster than he was before. Gai had never witnessed his Shunshin before. So him being shocked when he sees it for the first time doesn't mean that Naruto got a major speed boost. Obito was shocked because he repelled the Bijuu Dama. Which was because of his tails, not his Shunshin.
Yeah, already admitted this. Getting BM increased his chakra control, but chakra control is not related to the process of obtaining it. And KCM Naruto can use Mini Bijuu Dama, so he does have the ratio down regardless of BM.
Was it the reason he made it there in time to deflect them? Yes. Did he deflect them because of his speed? Obviously not. Moving past something is never going to make it go flying that far, especially in all 5 directions. Especially when we are talking about 5 Bijuu Dama here. Not to mention the Manga shows his tails after the fact. He didn't deflect them with speed alone. Not even close.
Noticeable? Yes. Major? No. Nothing shows it.
@Kag
How can there not be a gap in foot speed? You need to be fast on foot in general to have a fast shunshin. All shunshin does is vitalize the bodies regular capabilities. I don't know anyone with an average foot speed that suddenly gets fast enough to react to top tier speedsters with shunshin. Not one.
How is there not a gap in reaction speed? Minato tossed a kunai over Ays head in V2 with his fist on his nose so quickly Ay didnt notice and teleported. Put Sasuke and Naruto in base and Ay takes there head off in same scenario. Thats not proof there's a gulf between their reaction speeds?
@Kid
They were but will we forget all else we know and only use that as proof? Minato was Edo, thus had lower stats across the board. We seen the stat spike Madara got when he was alive. Also, what instance was there when Minato and Sasuke had to get something done that depended on their speed to compare them like that?
KidGamer65
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Explicit showings of Minato's speed in KCM surpass any kind of reasoning anyone could come up with without actually seeing him in KCM.
Yeah, lower stats, but so low that it's like his KCM never gave him a boost at all? No Edo showed a nerf that strong. Not one of the Edo Hokages, and definitely not Madara.
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Juubito attacks, Minato is about to use Hiraishin, but Sasuke reacts faster and saves Naruto by Shunshin'ing in the way of Obito's Gudo Dama attack.
Strong enough to allow him to overwhelm the BSM avatar? when it was canonically shown to be on par with the BM avatar? i dont think so,
his chakra levels may increase but his chakra strength is never increasing to that extent,
especially when they have lived over decades worth of peace and when adult sasukes PS was no different from rikudo sasukes PS,
remove the rikudo boost and its the same more or less,
this makes literally no sense whatsoever,
Rikudo PS took that damage from an attack equivalent of 2 Rikudo BM avatar TBBs
remove the rikudo:
regular PS will take the same damage from 2 regular BM kuramas TBBs
now add the senjutsu buff to the avatar, and the damage it takes gets much worse
This again doesnt make much sense,
sasuke can either switch places with the TBBs, or he can switch places with Minato himself
if he switches places with TBBs then Minato isnt getting damaaged and he is only protected from one TBB, which again leaves him open during his cooldown
iif he switches places with minato himself than again this accomplishes nothing because that intercepts his charge up for only one TBB and again leaves him wide open for the next onslaught of TBBs that minato wil bombard at him during his cooldown,
and this is all if we assume that he is within the range of amenotejikaras teleportation
chances are that he wont be, meaning that he isnt doing much as he wont be able to teleport out of the bombs AOE
Then he is loosing this fight, pretty badly i might add,
his slashes were as good as nothing to the BM avatar, now in front of te senjutsu avatar they are trash
his Rikudo PS was on par with Rikudo Kurama avatar, now we remove the rikudo and hiis PS would be on par with BM avatar,
adding senjutsu buff means that sasukes PS gets manhandled, and overwhelmed
firing TBBs is still safe for minato since his avatar is more durable meaning that sasuke again gets put down first,
another thing to note is that his PS gets marked by minato during their first encounter leaving him wide open for minato to teleport him out of iit and leave him defenseless,
No they cant be,
something that can travel an entire sea within a second is not getting evaded by PSs flight speed,
and if minato tags sasukes construct early on then he is getting every TBB teleported right at hiim, ensuring that he gets hit
then in this case it would be BSM minato vs Sasuke , with both of them without their constructs,
in which case, sasuke gets wrecked, horribly
not only is he slower than minato physically but minato has clones with him, and can use FTG constantly with no such cooldowns,
in an S/T only battle,, sasuke still gets stomped since Minatos reactions would be well above sasukes here
Base Minatos reactions >>> Base Narutos
BSM Narutos reactions = Sasukes
BSM Minato >> BSM naruto = EMS sasukes
meaning that sasuke wont be the one landing the blows when he is slower than minato, outnumbered and his usage of ameno iisnt even half as wide and versatile as FTG
sasuke may be ablee to track minatos shunshin but thats as good as nothing when he cant physicallly evade his attacks,
he may evade the initial blow with ameno but then the other clones or so would shunshin right at him and shove a rasengan in his face during his cool down,
his reactions are still inferior to BSM minatos, tracking a JJs speed is meaningless since sasuke would still lose the battle of S/T which is solely based on the users reactions
they are only being used when PS would be out of the picture, but chances are that the instant sasuke loses his PS, he gets blown off the planet by the next TBB,
this isnt going over mid diff,
sasuke is outclassed in every single category here,
the gap in firepower is just astronomical[/FONT]
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