Not a bad debate for starters, I'm interesting in seeing how this goes, good luck.
If you'd like I can judge, I have experience.
In a non bias approach, it might be good to mention, EliteKakashi, that with the countering of Amaterasu, Jiraiya has the ability to seal the flames as shown back in part 1. Considering he has extensive knowledge of it in this thread, he'd make a few seals as a precaution in his battle against Itachi just in case.
Along with Taijutsu, I don't think Itachi is actually more skilled, I think they're at similar skill levels, but Jiraiya's lived longer and has been training with his style's for longer as well.
Jiraiya's a very versatile fighter but so is Itachi. They are kinda at an impasse. Jiraiya having a great balance with Ninjutsu and Taijutsu, whereas Itachi has a great balance with all of the Ninja fighting styles, though I'd say he resorts to Genjutsu and Taijutsu more than Ninjutsu.
Itachi is blindingly fast and could keep up with KCM Naruto (though may-haps that was because of being an Edo and thus having great stamina and infinite chakra, rather than his actual alive power).
I'm interested in seeing FTs counter and seeing how this'll continue.
Well... sorry for the long wait. It's a lot of typing... I just don't have the patience and will power to be doing this kind of extensive debating anymore - has nothing to do with you EliteKakashi.
I'll be the first one to admit, when it comes to overall skill, Itachi is the superior fighter in general taijutsu/cqc fighting. However, SM's strength and speed upgrades along with Fukasaku and Shima on his shoulders I think not only allows Jiraiya to match Itachi, but it ultimately allowed him to surpass the Uchiha in CQC. Some of the reasons for this:
*As a note, dealing with sharingan genjutsu will be dealt with in a later section.
Speed – His SM-Enhanced speed is formidable, albeit not particularly amazing. What saves this from being a problem for him is the ability to
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gives him a “get out of jail free card”, so to speak.
Admittedly, Jiraiya's SM enhanced speed and shunshin is nothing to laugh at... However, it is not adequate enough to suggest that Jiraiya will escape Itachi's sharingan, especially given the location. Simply put, the self-acclaimed fastest shinobi alive needed to
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his chakra for several manga pages in order to utilize his V2 lightening shroud shunshin in such a manner that it would provide serviceable in avoiding not only amaterasu's spawn point [
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], but also Sasuke's sharingan [
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] (who at this point is less experienced then Itachi). Unless we are suggesting SM Jiraiya can match Ay's charged up V2 shunshin; his speed will never be a problem in front of the gifted precognition of the sharingan.
Frog Kata – The 4th databook has confirmed that Jiraiya was a Frog Kata user(in case there was ever any doubt), which among other things, means Jiraiya won't even have to land all of his blows to be successful.
I do recall the 4th DB confirming that Jiraiya was capable of utilizing Frog Kata, so I will not question you on that. However, I am going to question the validity of the DB and the proficiency at which Jiraiya can utilize it. In this particular
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, the Frog Katas extension would of proven useful, but Jiraiya did not use it for some odd reason. Perhaps the DB meant that he is capable of using Frog Katas given his SM, but can't actually utilize it properly due to the fact that he has never mastered SM, unlike Naruto. Without any feats showcasing Jiraiya using Frog Katas, I'm not too sure whether we can just freely hand him feats from someone who is more proficient then him in the art of sennin mode.
Dealing with bunshin feints – Full intel will allow Jiraiya and the elder sages to stay on guard about the possibility of Itachi's famous bunshin feints, and their SM sensing abilities(in particular the elder sages) will allow them to know if there are “multiple Itachis” in the battlefield.
Not necessarily so. Itachi's jutsu execution is ridiculously fast. So fast, that despite SM sensing, he was capable of bunshin feinting DSM Kabuto and even fooling EMS Sasuke at the same time [
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]-[
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]. His hand seal speed and jutsu execution is too fast for even the sharingan to completely see (Refer to his fight with 3T Kakashi and Hebi Sasuke), and clearly too fast for even SM sensing to detect by swift maneuvering and immediate pressuring.
Durability – Any hits that Itachi may land on Jiraiya would likely end up being meaningless, given SM Jiraiya has shown some incredible durability, tanking being shoved through metal pipes by one of Pain's summons, only to show 0 ill effects from it, knocking the summon away, and coming out of the situation unscratched.
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Fukasaku and Shima's Assistance – I think one of the most overlooked aspects of SM Jiraiya fighting in taijutsu is the abilities that Fukasaku and Shima have that can be a very big problem, even for someone with sharingan precog and Itachi's skill. Fukasaku and Shima are both perfect sages with the ability to use Frog Kata, and it's been shown that
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. This means not only would Itachi have to deal with Jiraiya's strikes, but Fukasaku and Shima's as well. I don't see any way he can block against 3 separate Frog Kata users, if he can block Jiraiya's alone.
On top of their frog kata abilities, their tongues offer yet another very powerful asset to Jiraiya. Shima's has the ability to grab on to a target(and has the strength to slam a summon down) and shoot out acid, and Animal Path noted that even at a good distance, it was far too fast for his summon to dodge. Fukasaku's has shown incredible speed as well, but it's greatest ability lies in it's cutting ability cutting through steel pipes with no effort at great speeds.
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I think these abilities give Jiraiya a clear advantage in CQC, and with this advantage, I'm not sure someone with Itachi's intelligence would even bother engaging in it.
I will grant you that Itachi engaging SM Jiraiya in CQC can potentially be risky, but in my honest opinion, it's his most viable way of walking away triumphant. It would appear that Jiraiya has everything going for him in this department given the reasons you pointed out above, but you're not taking Itachi's assets into account.
1) Execution. I mentioned it already briefly; but I don't believe I made it apparent enough that with the intent to actually kill his opponent, Itachi is extremely dangerous. With the ability to conceal and weave handseals so fast that even a 3T sharingan can't track, Itachi will be able to utilize any of his jutsu within the smallest of windows in CQC - as shown numerous times within the manga. He can create a bunshin so fast and attack before a top tier elite SM sensor in Kabuto had the time to even sense him out and notice multiple Itachi's. Add these two factors together with the intent to kill his opponent, and you will realize there is very little even SM Jiraiya can do when Itachi is going for the quick kill. I mean... let's take a look at what happened in the scenario Itachi bunshin feinted DSM Kabuto (someone I regard to be superior to SM Jiraiya in nearly all categories)
Without DSM Kabuto or EMS Sasuke even realizing, Itachi somehow concealed himself and created a bunshin somewhere between
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and
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. After being feinted, Kabuto couldn't react fast enough to (in order to completely avoid) Itachi's bunshin shunshin strike:
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Yes, Kabuto avoided taking any lethal damage, but do you think an inferior SM Jiraiya can do any better in this scenario? Mind you, Itachi had no killing intent against Kabuto. I suppose SM Jiraiyas durability does come into play here, but he isn't coming out of this unscathed... considering asura path was capable of slicing his arm completely off and the fact that the black rods were stabbing through his body easily. So I see Itachi injuring him in some way, even if it's just by a kunai. Truthfully, Itachi doesn't even necessarily need to aim for Jiraiyas body... he can aim to kill Ma and/or Pa instead.
2) Susano'o. I don't believe that you were considering that Itachi can activate susano'o nearly instant at any time - either to assist him in attacking or defending him from anything SM Jiraiya throws at him in CQC. Itachi's taijutsu alone isn't going to get him anywhere against SM Jiraiyas durability, but susano'o will easily put heavy damage on Jiraiya if anything connects.
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3) Genjutsu. You dedicated your counters to genjutsu in an entire different section, so I will address most of it there. Right here I aim to point out that by engaging Itachi in CQC, Jiraiya needs to be extremely cautious with combating him. With the looming possibility of looking into Itachi's eyes, it will greatly hinder Jiraiyas ability to effectively combat him in close quarters in an ordinary manner. DSM Kabuto had to literally develop a way to fight the sharingan effectively by blocking his eyesight, and unfortunately, SM Jiraiya doesn't have that luxury. He will be forced to rely too much on his sensing and following Itachi's incredibly fast movements without drawing eye contact, something he isn't used to doing. So this definitely factors into their CQC engagement, as Itachi will undoubtedly be aiming to force eye contact to land Tsukiyomi for the win.
Not too sure if I persuaded you, but as far as CQC goes, I believe Itachi has the edge given these factors. As you even admitted yourself, Itachi is definitely more skillful.
This is actually an area where I think it can be argued Jiraiya has the advantage even if he were just in base, but given we're talking about SM Jiraiya, I think it's a clear advantage in his favor.
*As a note, I'm going to restrict Toad Army as to how it appeared in Chapter 430, meaning full grown Gamakichi/Gamakichi with his war arc feats is not included. It's only fair to restrict it to the toads Jiraiya would have had access to when he was alive, I feel. Meaning Bunta, Ken and Hiro are his only usable summons here.
**As a second note, yes, I'm aware that Itachi can potentially use sharingan genjutsu to control one of the summons, and you won't see that mentioned here, but don't think I've forgot about it. I'll cover that in a different section which will cover how Jiraiya can combat against all of Itachi's sharingan abilities.
Summoning – Yet again, a feat that many overlook when discussing SM Jiraiya, is one of the toads on his shoulders, Shima, has the ability to
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the entire
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. This gives Jiraiya an even greater numbers advantage than he already had with Fukasaku and Shima, and while Hiro's feats are limited, he's at least competent with his sword, and Gamaken showed great skill when fighting Animal Path's summons.
The boss toad himself, Gamabunta, brings the physical combat skill of Gamaken with the ability to tank extremely powerful attacks, such as a
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On top of that, his
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provide a hard counter to any katon Itachi may attempt to throw at them.
Are you sure that Jiraiya and the toad sages would opt into summoning the 3 boss toads while combatting Itachi? Doesn't seem practical considering genjutsu, susano'o sword, and most of all amaterasu - which one shots these huge targets whenever Itachi pleases. I really don't see them holding any significant purpose in this fight, other then attempting to deplete Itachi's chakra reserves... but again, would that be worth the sacrifice? Even in CQC, they're far too big and slow in comparison to Itachi... Just like the paths, Itach will avoid any of their efforts with ease [
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]-[
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]-[
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]. Besides, just a very small scale amaterasu is all that is needed to kill them off as the flames will spread. In my honest opinion, summoning the boss toads against Itachi would be extremely careless of Jiraiya and out of his character to be practically sacrificing them fully knowing they can't deal with Amaterasu.
Jiraiya's Katon Abilities – Like Itachi, Jiraiya's greatest skill in ninjutsu is in his use of katon, which he mixes with oil to increase it's power. His
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, an SM improvement over his regular Endan is so powerful it stalled Preta Path for 7 pages of non stop action, the same Preta Path that showed the ability to absorb a
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near-instantly.
On top of that, he can mix that powerful katon with a large amount of oil from Bunta to cover a gigantic area, dwarfing even two boss summons in Bunta and Katsuyu.
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Shima can also add fire to Jiraiya's oil to create a similar effect. While Dai Endan could potentially be countered by Itachi's Water Dragon, Water Dragon is doing nothing to his combo with either Shima or Bunta.
Don't think there is much to say here. Itachi is easily outmatched in a long-range ninjutsu fight. Keeping it within CQC will be my main focus. However, if worse comes to worse here, I suppose he can plow through Jiraiyas giant enhanced katon with susano'o.
Jiraiya's Doton Ability – He only possesses one doton feat, but that one feat is one of the more deadly traps in the manga in Yomi Numa, a mud swamp big enough to hold even a
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...and the most interesting part of all, this swamp was considered a failure in both
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by Jiraiya, due to him still feeling the effects of being drugged by Tsunade. An SM-Enhanced full powered Yomi Numa would be ridiculous in size, and could sink even the likes of susanoo, I think it's fair to say, given how much SM enhances his other abilities
Jiraiya also showed the ability to use a
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to
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, as well.
Jiraiya's full intel on Susanoo allows him to know that beneath susanoo is where it's weakness lies, so sinking it is a definite option.
I'll address Yumi Numa fully in the 'combating mangekyo techniques' portion of your post... but I will say this; this technique could potentially be most troublesome for Itachi. Another reason why I believe it is within Itachi's best interest to utilize his superior speed and jutsu execution to take control of the fight and keep it at a close-medium range distance where Jiraiya will not have the opportunity to successfully utilize his jutsu such as this one.
Also, Itachi's sharingan will pick up on the hand seals for Yumi Numa before Jiraiya even successfully uses it. So given the full intel, Itachi will know when it's coming and react accordingly by getting off the ground and shunshin' blitzing Jiraiya from the air [
Jiraiya's Rasengan – It's worth noting that his Choodama Rasengan required Preta Path to absorb and Madara only defended against it when Naruto used it by using susanoo(also worth noting that Jiraiya's was actually a
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than
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in size), while the third databook implies that it has the power to carve out a mountain. Hyperbole, I'm sure, but it's destructive power is still nothing to be messed with, and Itachi would be a dead man if hit by it.
Don't have much to say here. Don't see this ever becoming a major threat to Itachi given his precog and reaction speed. If worse comes to worse, susano'o tanks it.
Jiraiya's Hair – Working both as a great defense and a great attack, his hair could pose a ton of problems for Itachi. For starters, it has the strength to
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and
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and possesses the defensive abilities to protect from any
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, as the hair will pierce straight through limbs.
It's greatest technique comes in the form of
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, which Jiraiya notes is his
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, and without something to block them, there isn't much you can do about it.
Pretty decent feats. Not impressive enough to suggest that it'll catch Itachi or restrain susano'o though. I see this tactic working against Jiraiya, as Itachi's 4 armed susano'o can just
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and restrain him, pull him closer, and susano'o smash him. Or alternatively, blast him with magnatamas [
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] or susano'o swipe him [
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]. (Do note that Kimimaro's bones were stated to be hard as steel. These bones that Itachi's susano'o cut cleanly through were SM enhanced, so obviously even harder.) I see this resulting in Jiraiyas death, or critically injured. As far as his hairs defensive purposes, Itachi would be stupid to physically attack him... not that Jiraiyas jutsu exection is faster then Itachi's but... yeah. It get's hard countered with susano'o arms anyways.
I must say... it's pretty disappointing that SM Jiraiyas fastest attack was very comfortably reacted to by Animal Path in point blank range. If Itachi can't avoid it on his own, then his
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can surely deflect all the needles, while Itachi can conceal his handseals for a bunshin or another jutsu to catch Jiraiya off guard.
EliteKakashi said:
Fukasaku and Shima's Assistance – I already went over their incredibly powerful tongues in the CQC section, so I won't bother covering those here, but they also provide some excellent ninjutsu support for Jiraiya as well. Their Senpo: Goemon combo attack being extremely powerful as it's not only a Katon/Futon mix(which Kakashi notes
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), but adds in oil as well, and it's size is so great that despite the paths being
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, the wave still reached
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On top of it being a combo, the sages can also use elements independently. Fukasaku and Shima both showing considerable skill in futon, and Shima also having skill in katon herself. So at any time to overwhelm Itachi's water dragon, if need be, Fukasaku and Shima can mix some katon and futon.
Another aspect they bring is Kawazu Naki, a paralyzing ninjutsu so powerful it
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. So if at any point they feel the need to slow, if not completely paralyze Itachi or his susanoo, they have the ability to do so.
So overall, I feel another “point” goes to Jiraiya in this fight. He has a counter for everything in Itachi's ninjutsu arsenal as a whole, and combining this with his advantage in CQC, it pushes Itachi in to quite the corner...can genjutsu/sharingan techniques save Itachi? Lets go over that next.
Kawazu Naki... One of the very few jutsu that actually may factor in this fight. Worst case scenario, Itachi get's hit by the sound waves. However, it doesn't have nearly the same mechanics behind it as White Rage to suggest that it'll leave Itachi completely defenseless and unable to utilize his jutsu. The best it did was stun/paralyze two summons that don't even possess any jutsu... and that is probably why it was never used against a target capable of using jutsu like Pain for example. Itachi should still be able to throw up susano'o or even Amaterasu - Given the toad sages are focusing on maintaining this jutsu, they may miss out on noticing the pressure produced for Amaterasu. Of course, this is all assuming Itachi doesn't see this coming and backs away or there aren't any of his bunshins into play.
None of the elemental jutsu that the toad sages can utilize will bypass Itachi's susano'o. Do note, while it seems that I am relying on susano'o too much; I'm simply bringing it up as his very last resort... which tanks nearly everything in SM Jiraiyas arsenal baring a jutsu or two. My strategy here is for Itachi to keep pressuring Jiraiya within a close close quarters proximity, that wouldn't allow SM Jiraiya many openings to dish out his large scale ninjutsu that would force Itachi on the defensive for too long resulting in him having to throw susano'o up (assuming he can't avoid).
EliteKakashi said:
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Fighting Itachi #3 – Genjutsu
With Gama Rinsho restricted, no genjutsu exists in Jiraiya's arsenal, so instead I'll be covering how he counters Itachi's basic genjutsu(not counting Tsukuyomi).
Jiraiya explained in the panel I show above this section on how to stop genjutsu, and given the full intel in this fight, he and Fukasaku/Shima are going to be prepared for anything Itachi throws at them, and I feel will ultimately avoid even being caught in any genjutsu to begin with given their frog kata use allows them to fight up close without making eye contact, and fighting at a distance, Itachi's genjutsu doesn't have enough range(even if he makes eye contact), with all of his genjutsu being classified as short range techniques.
Jiraiya can apply constant pressure on Itachi to make sure he avoids any chance of Itachi getting in the face of any of his summons and attempting to place them under sharingan genjutsu(though, even without Jiraiya intervening, this would be extremely difficult for Itachi to pull off, given he's going to have 3 large summons attacking him all at once while he's trying to pull this off, even if Jiraiya isn't assisting in the attack at that moment.)
On the extremely off chance he does catch a summon in his sharingan genjutsu, if Jiraiya is close enough he can quickly dispel it from the summon, or if it worse comes to worse, Shima can simply end the summoning of that particular summon.
So, as a whole, Itachi's genjutsu arsenal doesn't play much of a factor here. I don't see any real scenario where it becomes a problem and Jiraiya gets caught, and if it does, he's snapped out of it instantly by the sages, as their constantly drawing in natural energy for him, and could disrupt his chakra.
I really don't see these summons being a factor for reasons stated previously. I think Itachi ultimately knows genjutsu won't be very effective given the fact they can simply be de-summoned at any moment making genjutsu a wasted effort here. I see him dealing with them swifly through other means, or simiply avoiding them.
Breaking out of Itachi's sharingan genjutsu isn't an easy feat. Surely not as easy as Jiraiyas instructions to Naruto; which was evident with Naruto's incapability of breaking out of a finger genjutsu [
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], nevermind the sharingan. Even someone like Orochimaru had trouble breaking out of Itachi's genjutsu, whom has a higher genjutsu DB stat then Jiraiya.
@ bold, that's not going to be sufficient enough considering DSM Kabuto is constantly drawing in natural energy into his body (in the same fashion as the Toads are for Jiraiya) and yet he still had to completely block out his eyesight while facing Itachi. Here we have an elite sensor (more skilled then Jiraiys SM frong kata sensing) and someone who passively draws in natural energy, and yet he still felt the need to block his eyesight. I don't know about you, but I don't see SM Jiraiya dealing with it as easy as you'd like to believe.
Also, I'd like for you to take a look at this
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Would like to know what you think about it. Itachi supposedly possessing the capability of casting genjutsu that goes undetected by sensors. I find it interesting.
EliteKakashi said:
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Fighting Itachi Final Round – Combating Mangekyo Techniques
The most difficult of Itachi's abilities to deal with by far, though I think Jiraiya has the arsenal to make it through it, though it won't be easy.
Amaterasu – Full intel once again is a godsend for Jiraiya, as the toad sages will be able to feel the pressure building up in Itachi's eyes, and give enough warning for Jiraiya to do one of a few things to avoid this technique. #1 – I mentioned his shunshin earlier and how it could be used to avoid amaterasu. #2 – Shima could create a
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, allowing Jiraiya to move to avoid amaterasu without Itachi knowing where to aim. #3 – Jiraiya could create a kage bunshin to take the hit of amaterasu as he gets away. #4 – In a worst case scenario, Jiraiya could wrap his body in his hair, and either use Kebari Senbo to fire off the burning hairs or have Fukasaku use his tongue to quickly cut off the section of hair that is burning.
These are just a few examples of methods of avoiding amaterasu once it is sensed. This is also assuming that Itachi is able to just fire it off without being attacked himself by one of the summons or Jiraiya before he gets it off.
Tsukuyomi – This is mostly covered in the genjutsu section by noting that Jiraiya's intel allows him to fight without eye contact, and Itachi trying to land it on the summons is going to be extremely difficult given it has to be pulled off in a short range, and the summons can also do their best to avoid direct eye contact as well, making it even harder on Itachi to pull off.
Susanoo – One of the best assets to me in this fight is a lot of Jiraiya's ninjutsu(and some CQC tactics) cannot be blocked regularly by Itachi, forcing him to use Susanoo in the event that he cannot dodge. What this grants me is a draining effect on Itachi's chakra. While we're going with healthy Itachi here, using Susanoo, Amaterasu, ninjutsu and having to fight in CQC with an SM user is extremely draining, and Itachi is put at a severe disadvantage knowing he can't last nearly as long as Jiraiya, who is noted to have
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.
I will be the first to admit I'm uneducated on what the strength of this sword Itachi now possess is, so I'll wait for you to inform me of it's power before commenting directly on it, but I will say Jiraiya has the means of fighting susanoo without needing to risk getting hit by the sword, or grabbed by Itachi's susanoo in general.
And that is by utilizing the toad sage's Kawazu Naki to paralyze or at least greatly slow down Itachi in susanoo, as Jiraiya uses his SM-enhanced Yomi Numa to sink it. While I think an argument could potentially be made that Itachi could travel up through his susanoo and jump out before the swamp takes him out, him having to activate and deactivate his susanoo is doing him no favors in terms of chakra, and Jiraiya and the toad sages have practically all day in terms of their reserves.
As Itachi runs out of chakra, he runs out of defenses, and Jiraiya ends it.
Nagato didn't sense the pressure until after Itachi's eye started to bleed... at that point, it is far too late for Jiraiya. The next course of action would be for Itachi to open his eyes and spawn Amaterasu on Jiraiya, which would be much faster then the execution of methods you're suggesting.
1) Jiraiyas shunshin is nowhere near Ay's charged up V2 shunshin! Not even close. He will never escape Itachi's sharingan.
2) Shima's dust cloud is not anywhere near Amaterasu's execution speed.
3) I'd say this is your best option, as it only takes a single hand seal, and the clone will instantly spawn in front of Jiraiya. But... a single hand seal in comparison to Itachi simply opening his eyes...? You tell me which is faster. Even then, noticing Jiraiyas attempt of using a bunshin, I don't see why Itachi couldn't swiftly move to gain the angle on him.
4) Numerous handseals, and slower execution.
Just because you can sense it, doesn't mean you can counter it [
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], and I don't see any of these methods being very reliable.
Tsukiyomi:
Pretty much covered this already... If this lands on either Jiraiya, Ma, or Pa, the match is practically over. Not much to say here.
Susano'o:
What needs to be mentioned here is that Itachi can susano'o blitz.
Out of nowhere, Itachi took out Nagato's shared vision
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And before Nagato even showing any sign of realizing his shared vision has been blocked (something he should instantly realize since it's technically his vision), Itachi came out nowhere and immediately shunshin blitzed with his susano'o activated surprising Nagato, Naruto, and Bee.
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With that being said, anything SM Jiraiya attemps should be disrupted - including Ma and Pa. Barring only two jutsu, nothing in SM Jiraiyas arsenal can get passed Susano'o defenses; meanwhile SM Jiraiya can't really handle Susano'o's attack power. Worst case scenario, let's assume the toads successfully get Kawazu Naki off. As I explained previously, there is nothing to believe it works in the same fashion as White Rage. Yumi Nomi is countered via travelling up susano'o (as you mentioned) or susano'o pulls him out (Given the fact that Itachi doesn't need to be inside of it while it's activated [
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]). And this could be done simultaneously with Susano'o throwing a Magnatamas at Jiraiya to stop him from any other attacks while Itachi is taken out of the mud.
I kind off addressed susano'o throughout the entire post so I'm not quite sure what to even say here without repeating myself haha. But because I used Susano'o a lot, and since you mentioned Itachi losing by running out of chakra; allow me to mention his sick stamina feats.
Susano'o aside:
-Used Genjutsu twice (for a long duration)
-Used a Karasu Bunshin
-Used Elemental Jutsu
-Itachi used Amaterasu twice on a large scale, then sealed another one into Sasuke
-Used Tsukiyomi
Susano'o usage:
-Itachi assumably used V2 susano'o and it got completely obliterated and the chakra was erased. Itachi reactivates his susano'o
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and then maintained his highest version of susano'o for the majority of the time until his terminal sickness unexpectedly started to really take it's toll on him [
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], which forced him to drop it down a level. Mind you this niga is literally stumbling towards Sasuke slow as shit... but he didn't deactivate Susano'o until
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. That's two whole solid chapters of straight high level susano'o usage
Now that is a terminally sick Itachi who couldn't possibly be at his peak chakra reserves. I'm not saying even a healthy Itachi is comparable in stamina to Jiraiya, but if we consider his sick stamina feats, then apply it to a healthy Itachi; he should be able to use susano'o throughout the fight for a good amount of time much like MS Sasuke did. My strategy is for Itachi to waist no time, and go all out from the start to overhwhelm Jiraiya with his incredibly fast jutsu exection. That way, the odds of it being drawn out in Jiraiyas favor becomes a lot less likely.
Well... sorry for the long wait. It's a lot of typing... I just don't have the patience and will power to be doing this kind of extensive debating anymore - has nothing to do with you EliteKakashi.
Admittedly, Jiraiya's SM enhanced speed and shunshin is nothing to laugh at... However, it is not adequate enough to suggest that Jiraiya will escape Itachi's sharingan, especially given the location. Simply put, the self-acclaimed fastest shinobi alive needed to
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his chakra for several manga pages in order to utilize his V2 lightening shroud shunshin in such a manner that it would provide serviceable in avoiding not only amaterasu's spawn point [
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], but also Sasuke's sharingan [
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] (who at this point is less experienced then Itachi). Unless we are suggesting SM Jiraiya can match Ay's charged up V2 shunshin; his speed will never be a problem in front of the gifted precognition of the sharingan.
I do recall the 4th DB confirming that Jiraiya was capable of utilizing Frog Kata, so I will not question you on that. However, I am going to question the validity of the DB and the proficiency at which Jiraiya can utilize it. In this particular
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, the Frog Katas extension would of proven useful, but Jiraiya did not use it for some odd reason. Perhaps the DB meant that he is capable of using Frog Katas given his SM, but can't actually utilize it properly due to the fact that he has never mastered SM, unlike Naruto. Without any feats showcasing Jiraiya using Frog Katas, I'm not too sure whether we can just freely hand him feats from someone who is more proficient then him in the art of sennin mode.
Not necessarily so. Itachi's jutsu execution is ridiculously fast. So fast, that despite SM sensing, he was capable of bunshin feinting DSM Kabuto and even fooling EMS Sasuke at the same time [
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]-[
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]. His hand seal speed and jutsu execution is too fast for even the sharingan to completely see (Refer to his fight with 3T Kakashi and Hebi Sasuke), and clearly too fast for even SM sensing to detect by swift maneuvering and immediate pressuring.
I will grant you that Itachi engaging SM Jiraiya in CQC can potentially be risky, but in my honest opinion, it's his most viable way of walking away triumphant. It would appear that Jiraiya has everything going for him in this department given the reasons you pointed out above, but you're not taking Itachi's assets into account.
1) Execution. I mentioned it already briefly; but I don't believe I made it apparent enough that with the intent to actually kill his opponent, Itachi is extremely dangerous. With the ability to conceal and weave handseals so fast that even a 3T sharingan can't track, Itachi will be able to utilize any of his jutsu within the smallest of windows in CQC - as shown numerous times within the manga. He can create a bunshin so fast and attack before a top tier elite SM sensor in Kabuto had the time to even sense him out and notice multiple Itachi's. Add these two factors together with the intent to kill his opponent, and you will realize there is very little even SM Jiraiya can do when Itachi is going for the quick kill. I mean... let's take a look at what happened in the scenario Itachi bunshin feinted DSM Kabuto (someone I regard to be superior to SM Jiraiya in nearly all categories)
Without DSM Kabuto or EMS Sasuke even realizing, Itachi somehow concealed himself and created a bunshin somewhere between
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and
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. After being feinted, Kabuto couldn't react fast enough to (in order to completely avoid) Itachi's bunshin shunshin strike:
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Yes, Kabuto avoided taking any lethal damage, but do you think an inferior SM Jiraiya can do any better in this scenario? Mind you, Itachi had no killing intent against Kabuto. I suppose SM Jiraiyas durability does come into play here, but he isn't coming out of this unscathed... considering asura path was capable of slicing his arm completely off and the fact that the black rods were stabbing through his body easily. So I see Itachi injuring him in some way, even if it's just by a kunai. Truthfully, Itachi doesn't even necessarily need to aim for Jiraiyas body... he can aim to kill Ma and/or Pa instead.
2) Susano'o. I don't believe that you were considering that Itachi can activate susano'o nearly instant at any time - either to assist him in attacking or defending him from anything SM Jiraiya throws at him in CQC. Itachi's taijutsu alone isn't going to get him anywhere against SM Jiraiyas durability, but susano'o will easily put heavy damage on Jiraiya if anything connects.
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3) Genjutsu. You dedicated your counters to genjutsu in an entire different section, so I will address most of it there. Right here I aim to point out that by engaging Itachi in CQC, Jiraiya needs to be extremely cautious with combating him. With the looming possibility of looking into Itachi's eyes, it will greatly hinder Jiraiyas ability to effectively combat him in close quarters in an ordinary manner. DSM Kabuto had to literally develop a way to fight the sharingan effectively by blocking his eyesight, and unfortunately, SM Jiraiya doesn't have that luxury. He will be forced to rely too much on his sensing and following Itachi's incredibly fast movements without drawing eye contact, something he isn't used to doing. So this definitely factors into their CQC engagement, as Itachi will undoubtedly be aiming to force eye contact to land Tsukiyomi for the win.
Not too sure if I persuaded you, but as far as CQC goes, I believe Itachi has the edge given these factors. As you even admitted yourself, Itachi is definitely more skillful.
Are you sure that Jiraiya and the toad sages would opt into summoning the 3 boss toads while combatting Itachi? Doesn't seem practical considering genjutsu, susano'o sword, and most of all amaterasu - which one shots these huge targets whenever Itachi pleases. I really don't see them holding any significant purpose in this fight, other then attempting to deplete Itachi's chakra reserves... but again, would that be worth the sacrifice? Even in CQC, they're far too big and slow in comparison to Itachi... Just like the paths, Itach will avoid any of their efforts with ease [
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]-[
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]-[
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]. Besides, just a very small scale amaterasu is all that is needed to kill them off as the flames will spread. In my honest opinion, summoning the boss toads against Itachi would be extremely careless of Jiraiya and out of his character to be practically sacrificing them fully knowing they can't deal with Amaterasu.
Don't think there is much to say here. Itachi is easily outmatched in a long-range ninjutsu fight. Keeping it within CQC will be my main focus. However, if worse comes to worse here, I suppose he can plow through Jiraiyas giant enhanced katon with susano'o.
I'll address Yumi Numa fully in the 'combating mangekyo techniques' portion of your post... but I will say this; this technique could potentially be most troublesome for Itachi. Another reason why I believe it is within Itachi's best interest to utilize his superior speed and jutsu execution to take control of the fight and keep it at a close-medium range distance where Jiraiya will not have the opportunity to successfully utilize his jutsu such as this one.
Also, Itachi's sharingan will pick up on the hand seals for Yumi Numa before Jiraiya even successfully uses it. So given the full intel, Itachi will know when it's coming and react accordingly by getting off the ground and shunshin' blitzing Jiraiya from the air [
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].
Don't have much to say here. Don't see this ever becoming a major threat to Itachi given his precog and reaction speed. If worse comes to worse, susano'o tanks it.
Pretty decent feats. Not impressive enough to suggest that it'll catch Itachi or restrain susano'o though. I see this tactic working against Jiraiya, as Itachi's 4 armed susano'o can just
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and restrain him, pull him closer, and susano'o smash him. Or alternatively, blast him with magnatamas [
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] or susano'o swipe him [
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]. (Do note that Kimimaro's bones were stated to be hard as steel. These bones that Itachi's susano'o cut cleanly through were SM enhanced, so obviously even harder.) I see this resulting in Jiraiyas death, or critically injured. As far as his hairs defensive purposes, Itachi would be stupid to physically attack him... not that Jiraiyas jutsu exection is faster then Itachi's but... yeah. It get's hard countered with susano'o arms anyways.
I must say... it's pretty disappointing that SM Jiraiyas fastest attack was very comfortably reacted to by Animal Path in point blank range. If Itachi can't avoid it on his own, then his
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can surely deflect all the needles, while Itachi can conceal his handseals for a bunshin or another jutsu to catch Jiraiya off guard.
Kawazu Naki... One of the very few jutsu that actually may factor in this fight. Worst case scenario, Itachi get's hit by the sound waves. However, it doesn't have nearly the same mechanics behind it as White Rage to suggest that it'll leave Itachi completely defenseless and unable to utilize his jutsu. The best it did was stun/paralyze two summons that don't even possess any jutsu... and that is probably why it was never used against a target capable of using jutsu like Pain for example. Itachi should still be able to throw up susano'o or even Amaterasu - Given the toad sages are focusing on maintaining this jutsu, they may miss out on noticing the pressure produced for Amaterasu. Of course, this is all assuming Itachi doesn't see this coming and backs away or there aren't any of his bunshins into play.
None of the elemental jutsu that the toad sages can utilize will bypass Itachi's susano'o. Do note, while it seems that I am relying on susano'o too much; I'm simply bringing it up as his very last resort... which tanks nearly everything in SM Jiraiyas arsenal baring a jutsu or two. My strategy here is for Itachi to keep pressuring Jiraiya within a close close quarters proximity, that wouldn't allow SM Jiraiya many openings to dish out his large scale ninjutsu that would force Itachi on the defensive for too long resulting in him having to throw susano'o up (assuming he can't avoid).
I really don't see these summons being a factor for reasons stated previously. I think Itachi ultimately knows genjutsu won't be very effective given the fact they can simply be de-summoned at any moment making genjutsu a wasted effort here. I see him dealing with them swifly through other means, or simiply avoiding them.
Breaking out of Itachi's sharingan genjutsu isn't an easy feat. Surely not as easy as Jiraiyas instructions to Naruto; which was evident with Naruto's incapability of breaking out of a finger genjutsu [
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], nevermind the sharingan. Even someone like Orochimaru had trouble breaking out of Itachi's genjutsu, whom has a higher genjutsu DB stat then Jiraiya.
@ bold, that's not going to be sufficient enough considering DSM Kabuto is constantly drawing in natural energy into his body (in the same fashion as the Toads are for Jiraiya) and yet he still had to completely block out his eyesight while facing Itachi. Here we have an elite sensor (more skilled then Jiraiys SM frong kata sensing) and someone who passively draws in natural energy, and yet he still felt the need to block his eyesight. I don't know about you, but I don't see SM Jiraiya dealing with it as easy as you'd like to believe.
Also, I'd like for you to take a look at this
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Would like to know what you think about it. Itachi supposedly possessing the capability of casting genjutsu that goes undetected by sensors. I find it interesting.
Amaterasu:
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Nagato didn't sense the pressure until after Itachi's eye started to bleed... at that point, it is far too late for Jiraiya. The next course of action would be for Itachi to open his eyes and spawn Amaterasu on Jiraiya, which would be much faster then the execution of methods you're suggesting.
1) Jiraiyas shunshin is nowhere near Ay's charged up V2 shunshin! Not even close. He will never escape Itachi's sharingan.
2) Shima's dust cloud is not anywhere near Amaterasu's execution speed.
3) I'd say this is your best option, as it only takes a single hand seal, and the clone will instantly spawn in front of Jiraiya. But... a single hand seal in comparison to Itachi simply opening his eyes...? You tell me which is faster. Even then, noticing Jiraiyas attempt of using a bunshin, I don't see why Itachi couldn't swiftly move to gain the angle on him.
4) Numerous handseals, and slower execution.
Just because you can sense it, doesn't mean you can counter it [
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], and I don't see any of these methods being very reliable.
Tsukiyomi:
Pretty much covered this already... If this lands on either Jiraiya, Ma, or Pa, the match is practically over. Not much to say here.
Susano'o:
What needs to be mentioned here is that Itachi can susano'o blitz.
Out of nowhere, Itachi took out Nagato's shared vision
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And before Nagato even showing any sign of realizing his shared vision has been blocked (something he should instantly realize since it's technically his vision), Itachi came out nowhere and immediately shunshin blitzed with his susano'o activated surprising Nagato, Naruto, and Bee.
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With that being said, anything SM Jiraiya attemps should be disrupted - including Ma and Pa. Barring only two jutsu, nothing in SM Jiraiyas arsenal can get passed Susano'o defenses; meanwhile SM Jiraiya can't really handle Susano'o's attack power. Worst case scenario, let's assume the toads successfully get Kawazu Naki off. As I explained previously, there is nothing to believe it works in the same fashion as White Rage. Yumi Nomi is countered via travelling up susano'o (as you mentioned) or susano'o pulls him out (Given the fact that Itachi doesn't need to be inside of it while it's activated [
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]). And this could be done simultaneously with Susano'o throwing a Magnatamas at Jiraiya to stop him from any other attacks while Itachi is taken out of the mud.
I kind off addressed susano'o throughout the entire post so I'm not quite sure what to even say here without repeating myself haha. But because I used Susano'o a lot, and since you mentioned Itachi losing by running out of chakra; allow me to mention his sick stamina feats.
Susano'o aside:
-Used Genjutsu twice (for a long duration)
-Used a Karasu Bunshin
-Used Elemental Jutsu
-Itachi used Amaterasu twice on a large scale, then sealed another one into Sasuke
-Used Tsukiyomi
Susano'o usage:
-Itachi assumably used V2 susano'o and it got completely obliterated and the chakra was erased. Itachi reactivates his susano'o
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and then maintained his highest version of susano'o for the majority of the time until his terminal sickness unexpectedly started to really take it's toll on him [
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], which forced him to drop it down a level. Mind you this niga is literally stumbling towards Sasuke slow as shit... but he didn't deactivate Susano'o until
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. That's two whole solid chapters of straight high level susano'o usage
Now that is a terminally sick Itachi who couldn't possibly be at his peak chakra reserves. I'm not saying even a healthy Itachi is comparable in stamina to Jiraiya, but if we consider his sick stamina feats, then apply it to a healthy Itachi; he should be able to use susano'o throughout the fight for a good amount of time much like MS Sasuke did. My strategy is for Itachi to waist no time, and go all out from the start to overhwhelm Jiraiya with his incredibly fast jutsu exection. That way, the odds of it being drawn out in Jiraiyas favor becomes a lot less likely.
Lol, **** it man. I might hit you up on one of your threads, we'll see. I want to do a tag team debate or something though. Shino and Yamato Vs.... I don't know. And c'mon man, you got to give Bron Bron some more credit then that. He'll pull away with at least 1 game without Kyrie
Lol, **** it man. I might hit you up on one of your threads, we'll see. I want to do a tag team debate or something though. Shino and Yamato Vs.... I don't know. And c'mon man, you got to give Bron Bron some more credit then that. He'll pull away with at least 1 game without Kyrie
I'm still doing some things on the low and will hit and and Evani and few others up when done. And naw, it's over. Unless something happens to golden state it's a sweep. Not lbj fault though, I just don't trust his team.
I'm still doing some things on the low and will hit and and Evani and few others up when done. And naw, it's over. Unless something happens to golden state it's a sweep. Not lbj fault though, I just don't trust his team.
Oh yeah, forgot about that. Son, I'm telling you Bron, JR, and Shump going to, at the very least, bring this to a game 5! No way they're going out in a sweep! It's the NBA finals... no way they letting that happen.
