Restrictions - Totsuka, Yata, Koto, Gama Rinsho
Distance - 30 Meters
Special Condition - Itachi is given a
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for his Susanoo
I'll be going first, my post if all goes to plan will be up either tonight or tomorrow noon-afternoonish.
A couple people have offered to judge, which is fine, but I'm personally not trying to win anything here as I have no belief one way or the other headed in to this, so for all I know I'll end up conceding before any judging needs to be done, but we'll see.
Best of luck to you both! By your arguments on the previous thread I can see that your are both resctable and respectful debaters, so this is gunna be good!
Because Itachi with Yata/Totsuka combo is ridiculous and the only arguments for it for Jiraiya involve 2 strategies that are not any fun to debate with, and one being completely out of character for Jiraiya.
I also restricted Gama Rinsho for that reason. Cause I can make a similar argument to the way Jiraiya beats Yata/Totsuka to how he pulls off the very short period of time it's required to prep Gama Rinsho and ends this fight.
Yata/Totsuka gg/Gama Rinsho gg/Kamui gg/Blitzed gg...none of those are fun debates and there's little point to having them.
Because Itachi with Yata/Totsuka combo is ridiculous and the only arguments for it for Jiraiya involve 2 strategies that are not any fun to debate with, and one being completely out of character for Jiraiya.
I also restricted Gama Rinsho for that reason. Cause I can make a similar argument to the way Jiraiya beats Yata/Totsuka to how he pulls off the very short period of time it's required to prep Gama Rinsho and ends this fight.
Yata/Totsuka gg/Gama Rinsho gg/Kamui gg/Blitzed gg...none of those are fun debates and there's little point to having them.
I'll be the first one to admit, when it comes to overall skill, Itachi is the superior fighter in general taijutsu/cqc fighting. However, SM's strength and speed upgrades along with Fukasaku and Shima on his shoulders I think not only allows Jiraiya to match Itachi, but it ultimately allowed him to surpass the Uchiha in CQC. Some of the reasons for this:
*As a note, dealing with sharingan genjutsu will be dealt with in a later section.
Speed – His SM-Enhanced speed is formidable, albeit not particularly amazing. What saves this from being a problem for him is the ability to
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gives him a “get out of jail free card”, so to speak.
Frog Kata – The 4th databook has confirmed that Jiraiya was a Frog Kata user(in case there was ever any doubt), which among other things, means Jiraiya won't even have to land all of his blows to be successful.
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Strength – Jiraiya has shown the strength to be able to knock a giant summon a far distance back and take out the eyes of his opponent with a single kick, something Itachi would have to be extremely cautious of, because if his eyes were to be taken out, the fight is over. The use of frog kata, of course, also amplifies his strength. There's also Jiraiya's hair that I want to go in to, but I will dive in to it in the Ninjustu section.
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Durability – Any hits that Itachi may land on Jiraiya would likely end up being meaningless, given SM Jiraiya has shown some incredible durability, tanking being shoved through metal pipes by one of Pain's summons, only to show 0 ill effects from it, knocking the summon away, and coming out of the situation unscratched.
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Dealing with bunshin feints – Full intel will allow Jiraiya and the elder sages to stay on guard about the possibility of Itachi's famous bunshin feints, and their SM sensing abilities(in particular the elder sages) will allow them to know if there are “multiple Itachis” in the battlefield.
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Fukasaku and Shima's Assistance – I think one of the most overlooked aspects of SM Jiraiya fighting in taijutsu is the abilities that Fukasaku and Shima have that can be a very big problem, even for someone with sharingan precog and Itachi's skill. Fukasaku and Shima are both perfect sages with the ability to use Frog Kata, and it's been shown that
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. This means not only would Itachi have to deal with Jiraiya's strikes, but Fukasaku and Shima's as well. I don't see any way he can block against 3 separate Frog Kata users, if he can block Jiraiya's alone.
On top of their frog kata abilities, their tongues offer yet another very powerful asset to Jiraiya. Shima's has the ability to grab on to a target(and has the strength to slam a summon down) and shoot out acid, and Animal Path noted that even at a good distance, it was far too fast for his summon to dodge. Fukasaku's has shown incredible speed as well, but it's greatest ability lies in it's cutting ability cutting through steel pipes with no effort at great speeds.
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I think these abilities give Jiraiya a clear advantage in CQC, and with this advantage, I'm not sure someone with Itachi's intelligence would even bother engaging in it.
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Fighting Itachi #2 – Ninjutsu
This is actually an area where I think it can be argued Jiraiya has the advantage even if he were just in base, but given we're talking about SM Jiraiya, I think it's a clear advantage in his favor.
*As a note, I'm going to restrict Toad Army as to how it appeared in Chapter 430, meaning full grown Gamakichi/Gamakichi with his war arc feats is not included. It's only fair to restrict it to the toads Jiraiya would have had access to when he was alive, I feel. Meaning Bunta, Ken and Hiro are his only usable summons here.
**As a second note, yes, I'm aware that Itachi can potentially use sharingan genjutsu to control one of the summons, and you won't see that mentioned here, but don't think I've forgot about it. I'll cover that in a different section which will cover how Jiraiya can combat against all of Itachi's sharingan abilities.
Summoning – Yet again, a feat that many overlook when discussing SM Jiraiya, is one of the toads on his shoulders, Shima, has the ability to
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the entire
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. This gives Jiraiya an even greater numbers advantage than he already had with Fukasaku and Shima, and while Hiro's feats are limited, he's at least competent with his sword, and Gamaken showed great skill when fighting Animal Path's summons.
The boss toad himself, Gamabunta, brings the physical combat skill of Gamaken with the ability to tank extremely powerful attacks, such as a
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On top of that, his
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provide a hard counter to any katon Itachi may attempt to throw at them.
Jiraiya's Katon Abilities – Like Itachi, Jiraiya's greatest skill in ninjutsu is in his use of katon, which he mixes with oil to increase it's power. His
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, an SM improvement over his regular Endan is so powerful it stalled Preta Path for 7 pages of non stop action, the same Preta Path that showed the ability to absorb a
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near-instantly.
On top of that, he can mix that powerful katon with a large amount of oil from Bunta to cover a gigantic area, dwarfing even two boss summons in Bunta and Katsuyu.
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Shima can also add fire to Jiraiya's oil to create a similar effect. While Dai Endan could potentially be countered by Itachi's Water Dragon, Water Dragon is doing nothing to his combo with either Shima or Bunta.
Jiraiya's Doton Ability – He only possesses one doton feat, but that one feat is one of the more deadly traps in the manga in Yomi Numa, a mud swamp big enough to hold even a
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...and the most interesting part of all, this swamp was considered a failure in both
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by Jiraiya, due to him still feeling the effects of being drugged by Tsunade. An SM-Enhanced full powered Yomi Numa would be ridiculous in size, and could sink even the likes of susanoo, I think it's fair to say, given how much SM enhances his other abilities
Jiraiya also showed the ability to use a
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to
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, as well.
Jiraiya's full intel on Susanoo allows him to know that beneath susanoo is where it's weakness lies, so sinking it is a definite option.
Jiraiya's Rasengan – It's worth noting that his Choodama Rasengan required Preta Path to absorb and Madara only defended against it when Naruto used it by using susanoo(also worth noting that Jiraiya's was actually a
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than
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in size), while the third databook implies that it has the power to carve out a mountain. Hyperbole, I'm sure, but it's destructive power is still nothing to be messed with, and Itachi would be a dead man if hit by it.
Shadow Clones – While not as skilled a bunshin user as Itachi is, it was his clone that stalled Preta Path with the Dai Endan for 7 pages, showing his clones even can perform pretty incredible tasks themselves.
Jiraiya's Hair – Working both as a great defense and a great attack, his hair could pose a ton of problems for Itachi. For starters, it has the strength to
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and
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and possesses the defensive abilities to protect from any
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, as the hair will pierce straight through limbs.
It's greatest technique comes in the form of
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, which Jiraiya notes is his
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, and without something to block them, there isn't much you can do about it.
Fukasaku and Shima's Assistance – I already went over their incredibly powerful tongues in the CQC section, so I won't bother covering those here, but they also provide some excellent ninjutsu support for Jiraiya as well. Their Senpo: Goemon combo attack being extremely powerful as it's not only a Katon/Futon mix(which Kakashi notes
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), but adds in oil as well, and it's size is so great that despite the paths being
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, the wave still reached
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On top of it being a combo, the sages can also use elements independently. Fukasaku and Shima both showing considerable skill in futon, and Shima also having skill in katon herself. So at any time to overwhelm Itachi's water dragon, if need be, Fukasaku and Shima can mix some katon and futon.
Another aspect they bring is Kawazu Naki, a paralyzing ninjutsu so powerful it
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. So if at any point they feel the need to slow, if not completely paralyze Itachi or his susanoo, they have the ability to do so.
So overall, I feel another “point” goes to Jiraiya in this fight. He has a counter for everything in Itachi's ninjutsu arsenal as a whole, and combining this with his advantage in CQC, it pushes Itachi in to quite the corner...can genjutsu/sharingan techniques save Itachi? Lets go over that next.
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Fighting Itachi #3 – Genjutsu
With Gama Rinsho restricted, no genjutsu exists in Jiraiya's arsenal, so instead I'll be covering how he counters Itachi's basic genjutsu(not counting Tsukuyomi).
Jiraiya explained in the panel I show above this section on how to stop genjutsu, and given the full intel in this fight, he and Fukasaku/Shima are going to be prepared for anything Itachi throws at them, and I feel will ultimately avoid even being caught in any genjutsu to begin with given their frog kata use allows them to fight up close without making eye contact, and fighting at a distance, Itachi's genjutsu doesn't have enough range(even if he makes eye contact), with all of his genjutsu being classified as short range techniques.
Jiraiya can apply constant pressure on Itachi to make sure he avoids any chance of Itachi getting in the face of any of his summons and attempting to place them under sharingan genjutsu(though, even without Jiraiya intervening, this would be extremely difficult for Itachi to pull off, given he's going to have 3 large summons attacking him all at once while he's trying to pull this off, even if Jiraiya isn't assisting in the attack at that moment.)
On the extremely off chance he does catch a summon in his sharingan genjutsu, if Jiraiya is close enough he can quickly dispel it from the summon, or if it worse comes to worse, Shima can simply end the summoning of that particular summon.
So, as a whole, Itachi's genjutsu arsenal doesn't play much of a factor here. I don't see any real scenario where it becomes a problem and Jiraiya gets caught, and if it does, he's snapped out of it instantly by the sages, as their constantly drawing in natural energy for him, and could disrupt his chakra.
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Fighting Itachi Final Round – Combating Mangekyo Techniques
The most difficult of Itachi's abilities to deal with by far, though I think Jiraiya has the arsenal to make it through it, though it won't be easy.
Amaterasu – Full intel once again is a godsend for Jiraiya, as the toad sages will be able to feel the pressure building up in Itachi's eyes, and give enough warning for Jiraiya to do one of a few things to avoid this technique. #1 – I mentioned his shunshin earlier and how it could be used to avoid amaterasu. #2 – Shima could create a
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, allowing Jiraiya to move to avoid amaterasu without Itachi knowing where to aim. #3 – Jiraiya could create a kage bunshin to take the hit of amaterasu as he gets away. #4 – In a worst case scenario, Jiraiya could wrap his body in his hair, and either use Kebari Senbo to fire off the burning hairs or have Fukasaku use his tongue to quickly cut off the section of hair that is burning.
These are just a few examples of methods of avoiding amaterasu once it is sensed. This is also assuming that Itachi is able to just fire it off without being attacked himself by one of the summons or Jiraiya before he gets it off.
Tsukuyomi – This is mostly covered in the genjutsu section by noting that Jiraiya's intel allows him to fight without eye contact, and Itachi trying to land it on the summons is going to be extremely difficult given it has to be pulled off in a short range, and the summons can also do their best to avoid direct eye contact as well, making it even harder on Itachi to pull off.
Susanoo – One of the best assets to me in this fight is a lot of Jiraiya's ninjutsu(and some CQC tactics) cannot be blocked regularly by Itachi, forcing him to use Susanoo in the event that he cannot dodge. What this grants me is a draining effect on Itachi's chakra. While we're going with healthy Itachi here, using Susanoo, Amaterasu, ninjutsu and having to fight in CQC with an SM user is extremely draining, and Itachi is put at a severe disadvantage knowing he can't last nearly as long as Jiraiya, who is noted to have
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.
I will be the first to admit I'm uneducated on what the strength of this sword Itachi now possess is, so I'll wait for you to inform me of it's power before commenting directly on it, but I will say Jiraiya has the means of fighting susanoo without needing to risk getting hit by the sword, or grabbed by Itachi's susanoo in general.
And that is by utilizing the toad sage's Kawazu Naki to paralyze or at least greatly slow down Itachi in susanoo, as Jiraiya uses his SM-enhanced Yomi Numa to sink it. While I think an argument could potentially be made that Itachi could travel up through his susanoo and jump out before the swamp takes him out, him having to activate and deactivate his susanoo is doing him no favors in terms of chakra, and Jiraiya and the toad sages have practically all day in terms of their reserves.
As Itachi runs out of chakra, he runs out of defenses, and Jiraiya ends it.
As a final over view, I just want to note a few things. I'm absolutely positive that FT will find some holes in my argument and make a pretty damn good case for Itachi, as his knowledge of Itachi far surpasses mine, as will soon be evident. But what I will say, in my research, I've come to find that this seems to be an awfully bad match up for Itachi with the restrictions and scenarios we have set in place.
I wanted to go with Manga Intel originally(and give Itachi basic info on SM's upgrades), because I thought that was the fairest method of going about it. Jiraiya does have pretty much full intel on Tsukuyomi in the manga, and knows about amaterasu, but what he doesn't have is intel on how quickly amaterasu works or intel that the pressure in his eye indicates amaterasu is coming(sure, logically, they sense the pressure build up, they're gonna take defensive measures regardless, but it still changes things drastically). He also would lack intel on Susanoo's weakness. He would also lack intel on Itachi's basic genjutsu, which while he could be broken out of pretty quickly, could still end up getting him hurt or maybe killed in the worst of situations.
While Itachi is the better analytical fighter in this manga, him having full intel on Jiraiya really doesn't do him any favors here, because of how overwhelmed he is having to fight what practically amounts to 6 opponents, and Jiraiya literally has the chakra to just waste techniques to see how Itachi reacts. A healthy Itachi isn't going to fall over dead after using one or two techniques in a fight or anything, but when you consider how much chakra his MS techniques require, he can't afford to do what Jiraiya can.
Again, give them both their full arsenal and I think Itachi is your superior fighter much more often than not, the only way Jiraiya really wins is by some cheap stall tactics to pull off his own game over technique. But in our scenario here I think Jiraiya gains the upperhand because Itachi has been put in a really bad matchup given the restrictions that have been placed.
But, who knows. FT will probably destroy my argument paragraph by paragraph and make me realize I wasted 4 hours researching and typing nearly 3,000 words(well, technically 4,000 seeing as I had 1,000+ wrote before my word editor crashed and I lost it all), but even with that being the case, I'll still accomplish my ultimate goal in this which was to be further educated on the subject.
Itachi takes this, what makes you think Jiraiya isn't going to get caught in Tsukuyomi, and no, Pa and Ma can't break him out of a genjutsu of that level.
Damn, my bad EliteKakashi. I definitely plan on posting my rebuttal (which has been sitting in my notes like 80% complete for weeks now). My college semester is ending this week, so I'll have more time on my hands to complete it. I'll get to it soon, for sure.
Damn, my bad EliteKakashi. I definitely plan on posting my rebuttal (which has been sitting in my notes like 80% complete for weeks now). My college semester is ending this week, so I'll have more time on my hands to complete it. I'll get to it soon, for sure.
