Madara vs. Jiraiya

[Bronze]

i think Madara wins but I have a question: If RT Madara has Rikudo's chakra stored in his body wouldn't his speed be also upgraded by it when he blitzed SM Naruto? Or is the chakra he has minuscule to make any difference?

Blind Madara doesn't Rikudou's Chakra; he can only generate it through the Rinnegan, since he only manifested that Chakra after awakening the Rinnegan. Although Chakra wouldn't upgrade his physical capacity, unless it's a cloak like-form.

 

[Izanamı.]

Although Chakra wouldn't upgrade his physical capacity, unless it's a cloak like-form.

Sasuke's speed was increased without using any cloak when he got half of Hagoromo's chakra

 

[Bronze]

Sasuke's speed was increased without using any cloak when he got half of Hagoromo's chakra

When was that?

 

[EliteKakashi]

Fukasaku's hits aren't doing anything to Madara, at all. Not to mention Jiraiya will have to literally be an inch away from him if Fukasaku wants to reach, maybe even less. Same goes for Jiraiya, and Shima. Their punches aren't doing anything significant if Madara blocks with his arm, let alone his Gunbai.

And why would he have to deal with 3 SM users in CQC when 2 of them lack the reach to even hit him? And again, if Jiraiya's punches could deal serious damage, they wouldn't have caught them.

I know you're just responding to his claims that Fukasaku/Shima could punch Madara, but Fukasaku/Shima can actually be a nuisance in CQC even without punching/kicking their opponent, with Zessenbaku or Zessensan.

Zessenbaku is noted even at a decent distance to be too fast to react to(well..for the summon, anyway):

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And Zessensan can cut through pipes and summons with ease:

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The acid from Zessenbaku could potentially be fatal for a human as well:

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It's noted to be corrosive in the databook.

Madara engaging in CQC here would probably not be his wisest decision. With full intel I would find it hard to believe Madara attempting that, and Jiraiya will likely be doing everything in his power to get close. Would be an interesting match of Madara trying to play keep away while still trying to pull off a killing blow.

 

[KidGamer65]

I know you're just responding to his claims that Fukasaku/Shima could punch Madara, but Fukasaku/Shima can actually be a nuisance in CQC even without punching/kicking their opponent, with Zessenbaku or Zessensan.

Zessenbaku is noted even at a decent distance to be too fast to react to(well..for the summon, anyway):

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And Zessensan can cut through pipes and summons with ease:

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The acid from Zessenbaku could potentially be fatal for a human as well:

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It's noted to be corrosive in the databook.

Madara engaging in CQC here would probably not be his wisest decision. With full intel I would find it hard to believe Madara attempting that, and Jiraiya will likely be doing everything in his power to get close. Would be an interesting match of Madara trying to play keep away while still trying to pull off a killing blow.

The sword slash can be outright evaded or blocked with the Gunbai, and the acid tongue can be burnt up with Katon. He has no need to play keep away. He has the offensive and defensive power along with the speed and reactions to deal with these jutsu.

 

[EliteKakashi]

The sword slash can be outright evaded or blocked with the Gunbai, and the acid tongue can be burnt up with Katon. He has no need to play keep away. He has the offensive and defensive power along with the speed and reactions to deal with these jutsu.

Is the gunbai capable of changing Senjutsu chakra? I mean senjutsu bypasses other forms of defense(Can't be absorbed otherwise you turn to a frog/stone/whatever, and the Gudodama is incapable of negating senjutsu..not sure we should expect the Gunbai would effect it.

And the katon isn't really feasible in a taijutsu fight, I wouldn't think. If he creates distance, maybe, but in straight up CQC? He'd burn himself just as bad as he did Jiraiya/Fukasaku/Shima.

 

[KidGamer65]

Is the gunbai capable of changing Senjutsu chakra? I mean senjutsu bypasses other forms of defense(Can't be absorbed otherwise you turn to a frog/stone/whatever, and the Gudodama is incapable of negating senjutsu..not sure we should expect the Gunbai would effect it.

That's if you can't balance it with your own chakra. The Gunbai has no chakra of it's own, so it can't be turned to stone.

And the katon isn't really feasible in a taijutsu fight, I wouldn't think. If he creates distance, maybe, but in straight up CQC? He'd burn himself just as bad as he did Jiraiya/Fukasaku/Shima.

It is, also this is CQC, not just Taijutsu. Katon is expelled from the mouth and pushes out forward, there's no reason he'd burn himself, not to mention he has Katon like

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, to burn the opponent, blind the opponent, and get a back attack.

Then there's the fact he doesn't need to be right up in his face when he uses it, but he doesn't need to switch to long range combat.

 

[Zavage10]

databook disagrees. Jiraya is specifically listed as frog kata user and sensing.

In fact it says you automatically gain command of the terrifying taijutsu, the moment you learn senjutsu.

also sm naruto in the war arc, still can't maintain sm longer than jiraya can. plus jiraya is more verstaile and has a much larger array of techniques

Kawazu Kumite

When someone learns Senjutsu they gain command of a terrifying Taijutsu. Basically in Sennin Modo by collecting natural energy they gain danger sensing powers (what Naruto uses to evade Sandaime Raikages attack, Kabuto to sense Amaterasu, etc..). They can sense the enemies movement, match enemies rhythm/speed, to release a severe counter. Energy is released from one part of the body, the attacks reach is extended (i think, little bit confusing here). There is no chink (or weak spot) in offense and defense, it's a flawless Taijutsu.

If he has danger sensing then how did he get his arm ripped off by pain?

 

[EliteKakashi]

That's if you can't balance it with your own chakra. The Gunbai has no chakra of it's own, so it can't be turned to stone.

That doesn't explain the Gudodama. According to Narutopedia(which sources the 4th databook):

This gunbai had the ability to convert incoming chakra into Wind nature transformation reflecting an opponent's attack back towards them.

So I question if it's capable of doing that to senjutsu chakra, when even the Gudodama was incapable of phasing it.

It is, also this is CQC, not just Taijutsu. Katon is expelled from the mouth and pushes out forward, there's no reason he'd burn himself, not to mention he has Katon like

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, to burn the opponent, blind the opponent, and get a back attack.

Then there's the fact he doesn't need to be right up in his face when he uses it, but he doesn't need to switch to long range combat.

Fair enough.

 

[KidGamer65]

That doesn't explain the Gudodama. According to Narutopedia(which sources the 4th databook):

So I question if it's capable of doing that to senjutsu chakra, when even the Gudodama was incapable of phasing it.

Gudo Dama and the Gunbai don't even begin to work in the same or even a similar way. Gunbai absorbs and converts the incoming chakra to wind. Gudo Dama negates Ninjutsu. Gudo Dama being unable to negate Senjutsu=/=Something being unable to absorb it.

Though I was referring to using it as a physical shield and nothing more. It tanked a Rasengan with pretty much zero damage.

 

[EliteKakashi]

Gudo Dama and the Gunbai don't even begin to work in the same or even a similar way. Gunbai absorbs and converts the incoming chakra to wind. Gudo Dama negates Ninjutsu. Gudo Dama being unable to negate Senjutsu=/=Something being unable to absorb it.

Though I was referring to using it as a physical shield and nothing more. It tanked a Rasengan with pretty much zero damage.

It blocked the rasengan by doing what I quoted from Narutopedia.

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Notice the blowback from it on Naruto:

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Narutopedia also sources it when mentioning that it converts chakra to futon and strikes the enemy, so I'm guessing the databook used this panel as it's reference.

 

[KidGamer65]

It blocked the rasengan by doing what I quoted from Narutopedia.

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Notice the blowback from it on Naruto:

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Narutopedia also sources it when mentioning that it converts chakra to futon and strikes the enemy, so I'm guessing the databook used this panel as it's reference.

But there is no Fuuton there, unlike

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.

 

[EliteKakashi]

But there is no Fuuton there, unlike

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.

Well I dunno how you can say that it isn't futon. It's just a smaller amount of futon, from the way I see it, because the attack used on it(rasengan) is weaker than the attack used on it when Madara held it(mini bijudama). It converts the chakra used on it to futon chakra, so it can only create a blast as big as the chakra it absorbed allows it to, I would assume.

Here's a quote that a person on NF translated from the databook about the gunbai:

The fan that produces the rough wind!
Uchiha family member s specialty to fan the fire is in their blood (this is why fan is their clan symbol,their pride- TN). Madra s weapon Gumbai Uchiwa (war fan) is a honorific, inherited from previous clansmen generations, carved of an unique spirit (sacred) tree "ryouju" from which only special ritual instruments are made.
This fan has a bound ability to convert incoming chakra to wind nature manipulation (seishitsu). By using the fan s stiffness,it returns back the enemy's jutsu in a burst of a violent storm,this is the “Uchiha reflection”nature. During the era of the warring kingdoms Madara killed many ninja by their own ninjutsu.
Picture 1: During the stage of the 4-th Great Ninja War Madara used this war fan to absorb Naruto' s "Chou mini bijudama".
Picture 2. And instantly converted into wind nature transformation. Strong gust of wind blew away Naruto' s shadow clone.

 

[KidGamer65]

Well I dunno how you can say that it isn't futon. It's just a smaller amount of futon, from the way I see it, because the attack used on it(rasengan) is weaker than the attack used on it when Madara held it(mini bijudama). It converts the chakra used on it to futon chakra, so it can only create a blast as big as the chakra it absorbed allows it to, I would assume.

Here's a quote that a person on NF translated from the databook about the gunbai:

Meh, I'll agree.

 

[EliteKakashi]

Meh, I'll agree.

Regardless of that, I do find it interesting thinking of how it would react to senjutsu chakra. Even irrelevant to this fight(I don't think Jiraiya wins regardless, was just bringing up the Toads CQC "assistance"), it's just something to think about. Senjutsu is some pretty OP stuff, and we're not entirely sure of how the fan acts.

Plus in the example I was using, it's simply trying to stop a tongue that is enhanced with senjutsu chakra. So I'm not even sure it could "absorb" that, given it's technically a physical part of Fukasaku's body...I guess it would try absorbing the senjutsu chakra off the tongue, if the tounge even works like that.. but who knows.

 

[KidGamer65]

Regardless of that, I do find it interesting thinking of how it would react to senjutsu chakra. Even irrelevant to this fight(I don't think Jiraiya wins regardless, was just bringing up the Toads CQC "assistance"), it's just something to think about. Senjutsu is some pretty OP stuff, and we're not entirely sure of how the fan acts.

Plus in the example I was using, it's simply trying to stop a tongue that is enhanced with senjutsu chakra. So I'm not even sure it could "absorb" that, given it's technically a physical part of Fukasaku's body...I guess it would try absorbing the senjutsu chakra off the tongue, if the tounge even works like that.. but who knows.

The main reasons Senjutsu has been resistant to certain things is because of the balancing, and the fact that Gudo Dama have Nature Energy in them as well, as Naruto said, you can fight Nature Energy with Nature Energy. Doubt that it'd do anything to the fan.

Yeah, I doubt Gaeshi would be able to redirect it, at best Madara can evade or block it.

 

[wael reda]

His Susanoo had no noticeable increase in power, so I doubt that his physical power got a boost.

How do you know that his his susano didnt get physically stronget !!?,Did you except that this tiny v2 legged susano ( much much smaller than biju size)to tank 9 tails slashes from bijus ?
On the contrary ,this tiny legged Susano tanked BM Naruto's tail slash which should be around EMS Sasuke's PS slash ,that is so immpresive durability feat ,shows that his Susano has surly gotten much stronger ,not only because rikudo chakra but also hashirama's senjutsu chakra .

 

[KidGamer65]

How do you know that his his susano didnt get physically stronget !!?,

Are there feats to support it?

Nope.

Did you except that this tiny v2 legged susano ( much much smaller than biju size)to tank 9 tails slashes from bijus ?

That's exactly what the manga shows.

On the contrary ,this tiny legged Susano tanked BM Naruto's tail slash which should be around EMS Sasuke's PS slash ,that is so immpresive durability feat ,shows that his Susano has surly gotten much stronger ,not only because rikudo chakra but also hashirama's senjutsu chakra .

Lol. Naruto's tails being able to block Sasuke's slashes=/=Naruto's tails being able to output as much damage as said tails. Not to mention he had Hashirama's Senjutsu, so that's the only boost he'd get. If he had a Rikudo Boost, he would have tanked that 9 Bijuu tail slap with ease given what people like Kakashi and Sasuke achieve after getting said boost.

 

[wael reda]

Are there feats to support it?

Nope.


That's exactly what the manga shows.



Lol. Naruto's tails being able to block Sasuke's slashes=/=Naruto's tails being able to output as much damage as said tails. Not to mention he had Hashirama's Senjutsu, so that's the only boost he'd get. If he had a Rikudo Boost, he would have tanked that 9 Bijuu tail slap with ease given what people like Kakashi and Sasuke achieve after getting said boost.

The tail didn't just block the sword ,it stopped it ,which means it has equal momentum to the sword ,not to mention that the sword was broken when it tried hard to cut the tail ,the tail surly has equal power to the sword(equal durability and momentum) but the outcome is just different ,it is destructive power unlike the outcome of the sword which is cutting power

What feats make you think that rikudo chakra enhanced tiny v2 legged susano would have tanked the 9 tails ?

 

[KidGamer65]

The tail didn't just block the sword ,it stopped it ,which means it has equal momentum to the sword ,not to mention that the sword was broken when it tried hard to cut the tail ,the tail surly has equal power to the sword(equal durability and momentum) but the outcome is just different ,it is destructive power unlike the outcome of the sword which is cutting power

Except the sword was never shown to be broken. Um, blocking and stopping would pretty much be the same thing. If you block something, you have to be able to stop it to consider it blocked.

Even then, EMS Sasuke's PS is inferior to Madara's (by a good amount), which cuts Mountains. A Senjutsu Enhanced Complete Susanoo much larger than the usual Complete Susanoo taking 9 Tail slaps, one equal to Sasuke's PS slash and the other 8 being inferior isn't really surprising, especially since his Susanoo was shattered and he lost an arm.

Rasengan=Chidori<Raikiri. Raikiri barely pierced through Asura Path, but Naruto's Senpo Rasengan obliterated it with one shot. That means SM Rasengan>>>Raikiri>Chidori=Rasengan.

The Movie Guidebook says that when Naruto uses Senjutsu w/ Kyuubi's power, his Ninjutsu is drastically boosted in power.

Manga shows the difference between a Senpo FRS and a Normal FRS.

What feats make you think that rikudo chakra enhanced tiny v2 legged susano would have tanked the 9 tails ?

Hmm, let's see. Sasuke's PS went from being able to take the combination of two Mountain busters to being able to take the combination of two Mountain Range+, probably much much stronger than that, which minor damage. Give his Legged Susanoo that same boost, and it'd tank a Bijuu Dama let alone 9 Tail Slaps from the 9 Bijuu.

Also, that was a V3 Legged Susanoo. Bolding the words tiny and v2 isn't making your argument stronger.