What is wrong with pairings?

[Natsu Shazneel]

You still sound as if NaruHina can only be seen as GOOD only in comparison to the awful SasuSaku.

No I am not saying that. What I am talking about is how people see it. People see SasuSaku as abuse. So that is why it is more natural to hate than NaruHina. That does not mean I am saying NaruHina is only good because of how bad SasuSaku is. It only means that its more natural to hate abuse than admiration.

That's Radon's point - but that's NOT MY point AT ALL.
I like NaruHina and Hinata just for THEM, NOT in comparison to SasuSaku or even Sakura.
I'm just seriously bothered by people PREFERRING the ABUSE over the ADMIRATION.
THAT is beyond any common sense to ME.

People will think how ever they wanna think. You cannot change that. So what if they prefer abuse over admiration? That is there chioce not ours. I think instead of worrying about others well being you should worry about your own. So you don't look like a clown in a circus.

 

[Koshej]

No I am not saying that. What I am talking about is how people see it. People see SasuSaku as abuse. So that is why it is more natural to hate than NaruHina. That does not mean I am saying NaruHina is only good because of how bad SasuSaku is. It only means that its more natural to hate abuse than admiration.

People will think how ever they wanna think. You cannot change that. So what if they prefer abuse over admiration? That is there chioce not ours. I think instead of worrying about others well being you should worry about your own. So you don't look like a clown in a circus.

I'm the least worried about looking like a clown in the eyes of heartless imbeciles.
I'm much more worried by the very existence of such heartless imbeciles in our REAL LIFE.
Which is my entire point of arguing over this ever since - to try getting through the thick heads of those who think that ABUSE is FUNNY and PRETTY, while KINDNESS and SELFLESSNESS is for CLOWNS.
The end.

 

[shelke]

I'm the least worried about looking like a clown in the eyes of heartless imbeciles.
I'm much more worried by the very existence of such heartless imbeciles in our REAL LIFE.
Which is my entire point of arguing over this ever since - to try getting through the thick heads of those who think that ABUSE is FUNNY and PRETTY, while KINDNESS and SELFLESSNESS is for CLOWNS.
The end.

You must be registered for see images

 

[Koshej]

-stupid gif-

Such responses PROVE my point about being WORRIED FOR REAL - about REAL PEOPLE and their REAL mentality...

 

[Chikorita]

It'd be one thing if the romantic subplot was completely missing in canon and it was entirely just the fandom creating these pairings, but the subplot is definitely there. Extremely poorly developed yes, but still there nonetheless.

This is a shounen manga about magical fighting ninjas, but one of the central themes of it is the importance of bonds. Mostly platonic and familial bonds, but a romantic bond is just another type of bond. And just likely every other bond developed in the series, shipping is supposed to tie into the manga's overall themes... at least, that's what it should do. With the ships chosen and the way they were developed, I'm lost as to what Kishi was trying to portray here.

 

[Natsu Shazneel]

I'm the least worried about looking like a clown in the eyes of heartless imbeciles.
I'm much more worried by the very existence of such heartless imbeciles in our REAL LIFE.
Which is my entire point of arguing over this ever since - to try getting through the thick heads of those who think that ABUSE is FUNNY and PRETTY, while KINDNESS and SELFLESSNESS is for CLOWNS.
The end.

Wow use of such big words. Why are you not a manga character?

 

[Endles Waltz]

I got too sleepy to stay up, not surprised at how lively this thread got. :vincent:

Funny, I didn't, when most of my predictions came out right:

- Tomoe Rinnegan / Juubi eye for Sasuke.
- Ninjutsu development by Indra.
- Naruto using Ninshuu.
- Sasuke will gain flight.
- Sasuke will gain an Enton Sword.
- He will develop a better version of Kirin etc etc.

Also, Kishimoto himself states that he killed Neji and went with Hinats's popularity for NH. Now you can say whatever you want. Personally speaking, I don't give a damn about pairings as I wanted Sasuke to be a single man-****, saturating women to his heart's content. But, I do give a damn about consistency and foregrounding. NH had nothing. SS had nothing for it.

So, other than people wishing for their favourite pairings to come true translates into 'saw it happening a mile away', any logic anyone conjures here for NH and SS prior to the pairing is poor fan-fiction. I am actually looking at this objectively. In fact, I made a prediction before I left for a month's break and Naruto ended during that time that, "if Hinata is the first person shown when IT breaks, NH and SS are confirmed." It happened exactly like that.

This is a manga that is very easy to predict and offer criticism for. As I said, I have a knack for analysis. NH and SS - two fan-fictions that became a reality due to popularity of SS and Hinata for NH. Simple as that.



Couldn't have said it better myself. I am appalled that men like this kind of shitty romance. I thought we went for straight up passion? This is the stuff a twelve year old girl on her first menstruation cycle would find nice and get all giddy over... it is that bad.

Good to know that you managed to predict all that stuff, which makes it even harder for me to believe that you didn't see SS and NH coming.

Sure they were were horribly developed and barely given attention, and at times I forgot they even existed but the last arc was so obviously hinting at SS after Sasuke's redemption no matter how "horrible and illogical" it sounded. Even the most avid haters knew there was a big chance and were preparing their hate and their "being surprised" act.

You are right that its easy to predict in this manga, pairings included, and yes they were due to popularity but kishi did hint towards the 2 main ones since the beginning which is precisely why they gained that kind of popularity, he just didn't follow through with the development though and showed them at the very end, along with other pairings which were shown for the sake of the miniseries.

@bold: Not sure if you are referring to me as well, I mentioned time and time again that the romance in Naruto is shitty and I do not like it, that doesn't mean I have to bash the pairings to prove it.

I'm not sure what you meant by saying us men go straight for passion, if you mean straight up *** and erotica then I disagree, and I don't think Sasuke should be a single man-sl** fu**ing random women to his heart's content. This mind state is typical of some men but it is far from the best.

I would much rather have Sasuke in a well developed relationship with a 1 woman, unfortunately Kishi only got that half right.

your pairing is very simple yep, exactly what you said but naruhina is not like that, the entire manga proves how wrong you are, the databooks too and the movie you don't want to hear about too.

No sorry both pairings are very simple, NaruHina is exactly like I said, it was shown once in a blue moon in the manga, Kishi certainly didn't care much about it or any other pairing.

Do you know ANY REAL LIFE couple that has all of the below-listed qualities AT ONCE?
*They love each other romantically.
*They don't admire or respect anything about the other except their body.
*They don't share any common interests whatsoever.
*They only care about having *** with each other, not raising kids or doing social work.
*They are married for over 10 years and are older than 40.
*They don't hate or abuse each other physically or verbally on common routine.
*They don't have monetary or religious (or other similar) reasons to not divorce.
Cause that's pretty much pre-699 MANGA SasuSaku (minus the age part used for the real-life testing).
OR any quickly-dissolving AFFAIR you can see in REAL LIFE.
Normal marriages won't SURVIVE for that long under these conditions.

It's funny that you keep referring to "pre-699 manga SasuSaku" when they were never in a relationship then.

They are a "couple" and a "marriage" AFTER 699 and they are not abusive then, anyone who thinks that lacks brain cells and comprehension skills.

If you wanna look at it that way than I cannot disagree. Both Sakura and Sasuke were part of the main squad of team seven. They will be remembered alot more than NaruHina who may have lesser panel time together. How ever NaruHina is still getting a movie, while they are not. So this statement could still be debateable.

Exactly my point, NaruHina NEEDED the movie to become relevant in the eyes of viewers and be remembered. Otherwise in the manga SasuSaku got much more panel time from the start and would be remembered more as they are both part of the main squad, obviously they can't have the "hero"'s love story over shadowed by his rival's hence the movie. Which is fine really, but now all of a sudden people are claiming NaruHina was always so important while the rest is fan service LOL.

I'm the least worried about looking like a clown in the eyes of heartless imbeciles.
I'm much more worried by the very existence of such heartless imbeciles in our REAL LIFE.
Which is my entire point of arguing over this ever since - to try getting through the thick heads of those who think that ABUSE is FUNNY and PRETTY, while KINDNESS and SELFLESSNESS is for CLOWNS.
The end.

See you really take this way too seriously. Both pairings are ridiculous and fictional, just because I or any other person feels like SasuSaku is more appealing than NaruHina on a piece of paper it makes us heartless imbeciles? wow...

I most certainly don't support abuse and find "kindness and selflessness" to be positive qualities. You know I can also play your game and say that Sakura's love for Sasuke is full of kindness and selflessness with "near death self sacrifices".

Let's not make this minor subplot bigger than it is.

 

[Shruikan]

One is abuse.Other is complete ignorance.Summation of the pairings in Naruto

 

[Koshej]

It'd be one thing if the romantic subplot was completely missing in canon and it was entirely just the fandom creating these pairings, but the subplot is definitely there. Extremely poorly developed yes, but still there nonetheless.

This is a shounen manga about magical fighting ninjas, but one of the central themes of it is the importance of bonds. Mostly platonic and familial bonds, but a romantic bond is just another type of bond. And just likely every other bond developed in the series, shipping is supposed to tie into the manga's overall themes... at least, that's what it should do. With the ships chosen and the way they were developed, I'm lost as to what Kishi was trying to portray here.

SasuSaku - NOTHING logical, I agree.
NaruHina - selfless LOVE, inspirational GROWTH, eventual RETRIBUTION for GOOD actions, deep CONNECTIONS of the SOUL, etc.
I can't see why so many idiots fail to see these OBVIOUS things, instead choosing to focus on insignificant details like blushing or fainting.
For one, the very fact that Hinata HAS CHANGED from her shy meek fainting self in P1 to her strong brave leader-ish self in the end - is a great reason to LIKE her and her pairing (which was the REASON she has CHANGED to begin with).
I really don't see any LOGIC in hating on the P1 Hinata, while ignoring the end-product one.
But that's EXACTLY what 99% of her haters do - and it's clearly obvious from their "accusations".

 

[Koshej]

Wow use of such big words. Why are you not a manga character?

Funny, how even "Hinata-fans" start assaulting me when I openly tell my REAL LIFE reasons for liking her.
Not the first time actually.
Makes me worry even MORE...

 

[Edenia]

I ship Hinata x Koshej cause Naruto clearly doesn't deserve her.

 

[Koshej]

It's funny that you keep referring to "pre-699 manga SasuSaku" when they were never in a relationship then.
They are a "couple" and a "marriage" AFTER 699 and they are not abusive then, anyone who thinks that lacks brain cells and comprehension skills.

CONTRADICTS your own words next.

Exactly my point, NaruHina NEEDED the movie to become relevant in the eyes of viewers and be remembered. Otherwise in the manga SasuSaku got much more panel time from the start and would be remembered more as they are both part of the main squad, obviously they can't have the "hero"'s love story over shadowed by his rival's hence the movie.

If something "DIDN'T EXIST" - then it doesn't matter how much PANEL TIME it had.

See you really take this way too seriously. Both pairings are ridiculous and fictional, just because I or any other person feels like SasuSaku is more appealing than NaruHina on a piece of paper it makes us heartless imbeciles? wow...

No.
But the fact that you like the NON-EXISTING (according to YOUR own words) and ABUSIVE (in the whole manga BEFORE 699) pairing of SasuSaku over a pairing that has had POSITIVE DEVELOPMENT ever since Exams - is exactly why I'm realistically WORRIED.
In a sense, liking the CANON SasuSaku is even WORSE than liking the FANON NaruSaku - because of how NEGATIVE the former is IN CANON.
NaruSaku merely clashed with the STORY, but it implies that Sakura would EVENTUALLY mellow down (which never happened, but I did say it's FANON).
SasuSaku being CANON, and still NOT having a SINGLE POSITIVE REASON behind it (on EITHER side, which is even worse) - is disturbing and very unappealing.
And yet too many fans like that over the POSITIVE pairing that is NaruHina.
Now, tell me it's NOT a reason to actually feel worried about your REAL LIFE preferences.

I most certainly don't support abuse and find "kindness and selflessness" to be positive qualities. You know I can also play your game and say that Sakura's love for Sasuke is full of kindness and selflessness with "near death self sacrifices".

Then QUOTE me Sakura on WHY she likes Sasuke to begin with.
She doesn't HAVE a reason for it - and THAT is my biggest dislike in this case.
She just likes him "for the sake of the PLOT".
NOT for any REALISTIC reasons WHATSOEVER.
Do I need to tell you how Hinata has very GOOD reasons to like Naruto - and even Naruto has SAID that he likes people LIKE Hinata, which in itself is already a REASON.
SasuSaku is REASONLESS altogether - it's literally a PLOT DEVICE (especially on Sakura's side).
And THAT is disturbing, when it gets more LIKES than the pairing actually BASED on GOOD reasons.
Stop pretending that you don't understand me here.

 

[Koshej]

One is abuse.Other is complete ignorance.Summation of the pairings in Naruto

98 - "I like people like you."
559 - "I'm lame cause you had to save me before. You're strong, I can see it your eyes."
615 - "My life is not only mine. Thank you for being by my side."
Such "ignorance", indeed.
*MEGA FACEPALM*

 

[Koshej]

I ship Hinata x Koshej cause Naruto clearly doesn't deserve her.

Funny.
The point is, I fail to see how you can't see her as a ROLE MODEL (of SELF-CHANGE) even more so than Naruto himself.
In this sense, the REAL Heroes of Narutoverse are Hinata and Lee - cause both are the MAJOR self-changers who managed to defeat THEMSELVES by changing their WEAKNESSES into STRENGTHS.
Naruto is just another "typical Hero" that is UNAFFECTED by the surrounding negativity - but I don't see him CHANGING himself to OVERCOME any SERIOUS personal shortcomings.
Being goofy is NOT a real shortcoming to begin with, it's just the way he is.
Hinata and Lee, on the other hand, manage to GROW ABOVE their initial restrictions - Lee becoming a great ninja despite being restricted to taijutsu, Hinata becoming brave enough to face Pain and slap Naruto in front of everyone (and actually have a very leader-ish panel in 629 as well).
THEY are the REAL HEROES here, not the ones with the stronger punch or bigger fireball.

 

[Edenia]

Funny.
The point is, I fail to see how you can't see her as a ROLE MODEL (of SELF-CHANGE) even more so than Naruto himself.

I do relate to Hinata in many things, especially in her lack of self confidence and kindness but she's not a role model for me nor is Naruto.Naruto teach us great lessons but Istill think it's a pretty naive character who s really predictable. I do relate more with Itachi's ideals which he transmitted to Naruto before the war.

In this sense, the REAL Heroes of Narutoverse are Hinata and Lee - cause both are the MAJOR self-changers who managed to defeat THEMSELVES by changing their WEAKNESSES into STRENGTHS.

The real hero is in each one of us and the decisions we make. Neji is a hero, Itachi is a hero, Sasuke is a hero too for being able to understand things in the end. Lee is a hero, Hinata is a hero...so on. I do agre that hard-work and believing we can change our destiny makes us heroes too.

Naruto is just another "typical Hero" that is UNAFFECTED by the surrounding negativity - but I don't see him CHANGING himself to OVERCOME any SERIOUS personal shortcomings.

He did change in the sense he became less selfish in trying to be acknwledged by Sasuke after being acknowledged by the village and trying to solve things all alone by himself. Itachi helped him change in that way by telling him not to forget his friends and not to shoulder everything alone. He is still a cliché hero from Shonen yes.

Being goofy is NOT a real shortcoming to begin with, it's just the way he is.
Hinata and Lee, on the other hand, manage to GROW ABOVE their initial restrictions - Lee becoming a great ninja despite being restricted to taijutsu, Hinata becoming brave enough to face Pain and slap Naruto in front of everyone (and actually have a very leader-ish panel in 629 as well).
THEY are the REAL HEROES here, not the ones with the stronger punch or bigger fireball.

yes they did grow a lot as characters but they're not the only heroes You take this too seriously. Let people have their own opinions on the matter. It's useless to call others imbeciles or insult them jut because they don't share the same view as you do or because you don'tunderstand how they view it. k? :)

^^ i still ship you with her

 

[Shruikan]

98 - "I like people like you."
559 - "I'm lame cause you had to save me before. You're strong, I can see it your eyes."
615 - "My life is not only mine. Thank you for being by my side."
Such "ignorance", indeed.
*MEGA FACEPALM*

LMAO.Naruto had much deeper quotes with Sasuke than these you just pulled.

And if thats all you got in 700 chapters of a 15 year old manga,ignorance indeed.Naruto paid more attention to the ramen guy than Hinata Lol

Funny thing being Sasuke also has a similar quote regarding Sakura in Part 1

 

[Shruikan]

I ship Hinata x Koshej cause Naruto clearly doesn't deserve her.

Indeed.It must have taken a great deal of patience to deal with "nothingness" after 615 while Naruto didnt even think about Hinata for 90% of the manga after her confession and seemed fine with it

 

[Chie]

Neither are SasuHina.

You must be registered for see images

 

[Endles Waltz]

CONTRADICTS your own words next.

If something "DIDN'T EXIST" - then it doesn't matter how much PANEL TIME it had.


No.
But the fact that you like the NON-EXISTING (according to YOUR own words) and ABUSIVE (in the whole manga BEFORE 699) pairing of SasuSaku over a pairing that has had POSITIVE DEVELOPMENT ever since Exams - is exactly why I'm realistically WORRIED.
In a sense, liking the CANON SasuSaku is even WORSE than liking the FANON NaruSaku - because of how NEGATIVE the former is IN CANON.
NaruSaku merely clashed with the STORY, but it implies that Sakura would EVENTUALLY mellow down (which never happened, but I did say it's FANON).
SasuSaku being CANON, and still NOT having a SINGLE POSITIVE REASON behind it (on EITHER side, which is even worse) - is disturbing and very unappealing.
And yet too many fans like that over the POSITIVE pairing that is NaruHina.
Now, tell me it's NOT a reason to actually feel worried about your REAL LIFE preferences.


Then QUOTE me Sakura on WHY she likes Sasuke to begin with.
She doesn't HAVE a reason for it - and THAT is my biggest dislike in this case.
She just likes him "for the sake of the PLOT".
NOT for any REALISTIC reasons WHATSOEVER.
Do I need to tell you how Hinata has very GOOD reasons to like Naruto - and even Naruto has SAID that he likes people LIKE Hinata, which in itself is already a REASON.
SasuSaku is REASONLESS altogether - it's literally a PLOT DEVICE (especially on Sakura's side).
And THAT is disturbing, when it gets more LIKES than the pairing actually BASED on GOOD reasons.
Stop pretending that you don't understand me here.

lol I never contradicted my self, SasuSaku were never a couple before 699, same with NaruHina, however people generally refer to the interactions between the characters as SasuSaku NaruHina NaruSasu NaruSaku etc....

SasuSaku had much more panel time than NaruHina, and that was before any of these characters were in a relationship, do I really have to spell it out for you?

@Bold: Bro why do you keep assuming things about me by yourself? Why do you say I like SasuSaku before 699? I never said that.

I never even shipped them during the whole span of the manga FYI.

What I am saying is that Sasuke and Sakura's relationship - as in marriage or being a couple or however you want to put it (Which happens post 699) - is certainly not abusive, and I prefer it over Naruto and Hinata's relationship. It is my opinion and choice and I don't know why you are "really worried", chill bro, people have preferences and they won't always be like yours.

 

[shelke]

I got too sleepy to stay up, not surprised at how lively this thread got. :vincent:

Good to know that you managed to predict all that stuff, which makes it even harder for me to believe that you didn't see SS and NH coming.

Sure they were were horribly developed and barely given attention, and at times I forgot they even existed but the last arc was so obviously hinting at SS after Sasuke's redemption no matter how "horrible and illogical" it sounded. Even the most avid haters knew there was a big chance and were preparing their hate and their "being surprised" act.

You are right that its easy to predict in this manga, pairings included, and yes they were due to popularity but kishi did hint towards the 2 main ones since the beginning which is precisely why they gained that kind of popularity, he just didn't follow through with the development though and showed them at the very end, along with other pairings which were shown for the sake of the miniseries.

@bold: Not sure if you are referring to me as well, I mentioned time and time again that the romance in Naruto is shitty and I do not like it, that doesn't mean I have to bash the pairings to prove it.

I'm not sure what you meant by saying us men go straight for passion, if you mean straight up *** and erotica then I disagree, and I don't think Sasuke should be a single man-sl** fu**ing random women to his heart's content. This mind state is typical of some men but it is far from the best.

I would much rather have Sasuke in a well developed relationship with a 1 woman, unfortunately Kishi only got that half right.

That's why I said it's poor writing. If there is a pairing, then it should be backed by evidence. Going with popularity and last minute add-ups to validate pairings is as bad as it can get.

Passion does not mean erotica, it translates into heated, erratic desire, and a romance that actually has depth behind it. It's generally women that fall for fluff and the related nonsense. That comment was not directed at anyone, by the way. As I can't see any man liking fluff. I cannot even see any sane woman liking it. It makes no sense to me, and that's what SS and NH are - fluff pieces.

That saturating women part was mostly a joke to make a point that that would have made more sense for Sasuke, given the utter lack of development for SS and NH.

@Koshej

You know what, man, I finally understand you. Build a hand-made inflatable Hinata doll. I shall personally fund the building process; the silicon implants, the stretchable pipes, the paints etc. You have my blessing for this esoteric plastic romance in the making.

You fools, cut this man some slack. You people are just being haters. This is true love that knows no equal other than the second coming of Christ for the errant Christians.