EMS Sasuke vs BM Naruto

[DemonicAvenger]

@KG, Sasuke got a Senjutsu boost as well. SM isn't a requirement.

Even without that argument, Naruto casually matched him. That leaves room in the powerscaling for Sasuke to catch up.

Sasuke isn't doing anything to the tails that canceled out V1 Juubi's Bijudama. Even more so if he's using multiple tails at once. Scaled down from VOTE 2, he's gonna take heavy damage from a normal Bijudma as well. Continuos obliterates him, Flash is overkill.​

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[ARGUS]

Madara has already showed us that the he used PS to wrap kyuubi around,
seeing how his Iso Susanoo had the same mountain cutting power, as well as the same features as his PS itself
with that being said, Iso Susanoo isnt just for defense, when it has shown the same offensive feats as PS

 

[juzumaki]

Kakashi and Rinnegan Sasuke have PS, yet they aren't listed. News flash. Databook has errors. I'll go with what I saw in the manga over some writing in a book that Kishimoto didn't even hand write himself.

Either you go with the DB, and admit that

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and this aren't PS, or you go with the manga.

and you still miss the point if that was perfect suanoo that would have been the first time sasuke has used perfect susanoo instead its listed as Iso susanoo which means sasuke did not use perfect susanoo at that point in the manga

im done trying to expalain it

 

[KidGamer65]

@KG, Sasuke got a Senjutsu boost as well. SM isn't a requirement.

Even without that argument, Naruto casually matched him. That leaves room in the powerscaling for Sasuke to catch up.

Sasuke isn't doing anything to the tails that canceled out V1 Juubi's Bijudama. Even more so if he's using multiple tails at once. Scaled down from VOTE 2, he's gonna take heavy damage from a normal Bijudma as well. Continuos obliterates him, Flash is overkill.​

​

Uh, no he didn't. He only got half of Hagoromo's power. If there is some kind of Senjutsu in there as well then it's included in Hagoromo's power, the same power Naruto got. Rikudo Sage Mode is Naruto's normal Sage Mode on steroids, the only reason he has it is probably because of his normal Sage Mode, take away Rikudo's powers and we are back to his normal Sage Mode, so that's where the Avatars are physically equal. Sage Kurama Avatar and PS.

Naruto needed all 9 of his tails to block the v1 Juubi's Bijuu Dama and he still lost 6 of them. Not seeing how that's conclusive evidence that Sasuke can't take out one tail.

Why would he take heavy damage from a normal Bijuu Dama? That explosion contained the power of PS Chidori and Bijuu Dama, and he only lost half an arm, half a face and half a wing. If a Bijuu Dama is ever fired he can fly to evade it or he can wrap his wings around him, just like Naruto does his tails, in order to protect the main body. Scale down from VoTE 2 and Sasuke has the power to take out one of Naruto's tails with 2-3 hits. Scale down even further since Naruto doesn't have Senjutsu in this thread and Sasuke can take them out in 1-2 hits.

and you still miss the point if that was perfect suanoo that would have been the first time sasuke has used perfect susanoo instead its listed as Iso susanoo which means sasuke did not use perfect susanoo at that point in the manga

im done trying to expalain it

When he used it is completely irrelevant. You keep trying to use the DB as evidence for him not using PS, and it's not going to fly. Simple as that. End of discussion. Lol Jesus Christ.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Not to mention I've posted why I think Naruto and Sasuke's Avatars (BSM and EMS) are physical equals, yet I've received NOT ONE counter to that. Here, I'll post it again.



Someone actually counter it this time.

I disagree with only two things. There's no way EMS PS is going to have to same speed as BM. And theres no way BM would have the same height as EMS PS

 

[KidGamer65]

I disagree with only two things. There's no way EMS PS is going to have to same speed as BM. And theres no way BM would have the same height as EMS PS

Based on what exactly?

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Based on what exactly?

The same way you would look at Madara's PS and Iso PS. One had superior mobility then the other.

As for size. We already know legged Susanoo size already = BM cloak. They aren't fighting level headed here.

 

[KidGamer65]

The same way you would look at Madara's PS and Iso PS. One had superior mobility then the other.

How does that prove that Sasuke's PS won't be as fast as Naruto's BM? Madara's PS and his Iso Susanoo PS didn't show any major difference when it came to mobility, and if it did, it's because Kurama is more mobile than Madara's Susanoo, keyword is Madara's. Sasuke's Susanoo has shown more mobility than any of Madara's Susanoo variants. If they are equal in speed after they get an equal power, they should be equal in speed before the equal power up.

As for size. We already know legged Susanoo size already = BM cloak. They aren't fighting level headed here.

Legged Susanoo enhanced by Naruto's Chakra, but nonetheless you have a point.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

How does that prove that Sasuke's PS won't be as fast as Naruto's BM? Madara's PS and his Iso Susanoo PS didn't show any major difference when it came to mobility, and if it did, it's because Kurama is more mobile than Madara's Susanoo, keyword is Madara's. Sasuke's Susanoo has shown more mobility than any of Madara's Susanoo variants. If they are equal in speed after they get an equal power, they should be equal in speed before the equal power up.

If you looks at EMS versions, Sasuke and Madara's iso PS have shown to be on par with mobility. Looking at SixPath power up, it was clear that the wings completely supported his PS mobility. So I dont think we should judge it by SixPaths PS.

 

[KidGamer65]

If you looks at EMS versions, Sasuke and Madara's iso PS have shown to be on par with mobility.

Not a chance. Sasuke's Iso PS was jumping through the air. Madara's only took a few steps the entire match with Hashirama. Mainly because Kurama Avatar>Full Kurama and Sasuke's PS>Madara's PS in mobility.

Looking at SixPath power up, it was clear that the wings completely supported his PS mobility. So I dont think we should judge it by SixPaths PS.

1. Wings are irrelevant if he isn't flying, which he wasn't doing when he proved that his speed was equal to Naruto's Avatar.

2. DB states that all PS can fly, so Sasuke's normal PS should have wings even without Rikudo's power.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Not a chance. Sasuke's Iso PS was jumping through the air. Madara's only took a few steps the entire match with Hashirama. Mainly because Kurama Avatar>Full Kurama and Sasuke's PS>Madara's PS in mobility.

I doubt it was a few steps. At first Madara and Hashi were fighting no where near close to a sea.

1. Wings are irrelevant if he isn't flying, which he wasn't doing when he proved that his speed was equal to Naruto's Avatar.

When he was chopping CT he was using his flight to support his leaps, etc.

2. DB states that all PS can fly, so Sasuke's normal PS should have wings even without Rikudo's power.

Source link?

 

[KidGamer65]

I doubt it was a few steps. At first Madara and Hashi were fighting no where near close to a sea.

Still nothing compared to Sasuke Naruto's PS Kurama leaping through the air.

When he was chopping CT he was using his flight to support his leaps, etc.

I wasn't referring to that anyway. I was referring to his CQC battle with Naruto in Chapter 695. They were shown to be physical equals.

Also, that doesn't mean that wings supplement every movement he makes.

Source link?

This was very hard (especially preamble)
Complete( literally full body)Susano'o

Ninjutsu,all ranges,kekke-genkai,offensive,defensive.
Users: Uchiha Madara
Eternity reigns within these pupils,allowing to shape the bravery into clad blue!


The power of the "Mangekyo Sharingan" is able to activate incredible ninjutsu.Enormous chakra clad jutsu materialize, towering over the mountains( exceeding the height of the mountains), taking authority over battlefield to its hands(changing the flow of battle).Appearance of the complete jutsu differs in accordance to the user.Moreover for users that are good at ninjutsu "Susano'o"themselves,becomes possible to enter/trigger the invocation of the complete body(kanseitai).Furthermore Susano'o in next form can wear special armor which can shape/turn on wings that allow it to fly.
Picture: the great complete Susano'o cutting strength that can cut-off mountain peaks,is easily enough to shut down even iron hard resistance (or is enough to make even iron-hard enemies to forfeit the battle).

Cursed mark adds the senjutsu power!
Sasuke's cursed seal release ability,is the ability that originated from the Juugo s original cursed seal chakra. Senjutsu Susano'o is the Susano'o that has the nature energy power given from the cursed seal. People who tamed the Juubi power can be damaged only by nature energy, cursed seal chakra Susano'o made Sasuke s attacks land. Also I am 100% sure that Complete Susano'o is an MS justu (not "Eien Mangekyo Sharingan" jutsu).

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Replace the many x's with narutoforums

 

[Apêx1]

How many times do I have to say 50% BM Naruto is as large as 100% Kurama? Until someone counters, my point stands. 100% Kurama can only be seen as larger via anomaly consideration, but then again it's anomaly for a reason. If we were to consider anomaly's then Hachibi is larger than the Kyuubi, but that's not being done now is it? Especially when he stood as large as BM Naruto on multiple occasions. EMS Sasuke's PS is as large as EMS Madara's PS. No debate here whatsoever. And the legged Susano size is irrelevant. PS is merely a stabilised armour atop of the v3, so it's size should not increase massively,

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. The PS downplay is laughable in this thread. And for anyone willing to debunk that BM avatar=100% Kurama, reply to:

Don't know if people have realised by now, but 100% Kyuubi is no larger than 50% Kyuubi. Madara covered 100% Kyuubi and Sasuke covered 50% Kyuubi, both of which are the same size. Bijuu's have always been the same size, and portrayed in that way too, can't see how people think Kyuubi was the large anomaly of the bunch. Kyuubi @ same size [

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]. Other Bijuu's being relatively the same [

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]. Naruto recreates his image of Kurama as the same size as another Bijuu [

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]. Kyuubi looking like he's average sized [

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]. Bijuu's being shown to be relatively the same size [

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]. Hachibi and Kyuubi at the same size, who are relatively as large as the Juubi's upper body, yet Madara and Obito look smaller than the tomoe on the Juubi's eye [

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]. Jin's looking the same size as Madara did on his Bijuu [

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]. 50% Kyuubi looking as big as 100% Kyuubi [

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]. Inb4 100% Kyuubi is 5 times bigger as shown by footstep, when it's clear that Kyuubi shrinks massively when he loses his chakra [

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]. I know there are anomalies' that people like to regard as true, but if you do that you'd have to regard other anomalies' from Bijuu's, such as [

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] and [

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]. Hachibi is making trees look smaller than humans in this, and those are 10 meter+ trees. Gobi is also looking twice the size of anomaly 100% Kurama. Same with Hachibi, Obito looks like a smaller piece of rubble on his hand, so I'm guessing Hachibi and Gobi>100% Kurama on size? Nope, just means all Bijuu are the same size when you look at the portrayal of Bijuu and the implications of these scans. Sasuke covered it, so his PS is as big as EMS Madara's.

 

[KidGamer65]

Don't know if people have realised by now, but 100% Kyuubi is no larger than 50% Kyuubi.

Not sure how this is debatable when the Kyuubi is shown to decrease in size after losing it's Yin Half, something it never got back.

Madara covered 100% Kyuubi and Sasuke covered 50% Kyuubi, both of which are the same size. Bijuu's have always been the same size, and portrayed in that way too, can't see how people think Kyuubi was the large anomaly of the bunch. Kyuubi @ same size [x].

Probably because it shrunk in size, yet it still matches the size of the other Bijuu.

Also, why wouldn't Kurama being the anomaly of the group be an accepted stance? All the Bijuu have shown to be relatively equal in power, yet there is one Bijuu that FAR surpasses the others....Kurama. Kurama's firepower equals the firepower of 5 Bijuu, yet that shouldn't be so, since all the other Bijuu are shown to be equal.

Other Bijuu's being relatively the same [x]. Naruto recreates his image of Kurama as the same size as another Bijuu [x]. Kyuubi looking like he's average sized [x]. Bijuu's being shown to be relatively the same size [x]. Hachibi and Kyuubi at the same size, who are relatively as large as the Juubi's upper body, yet Madara and Obito look smaller than the tomoe on the Juubi's eye [x]. Jin's looking the same size as Madara did on his Bijuu [x]. 50% Kyuubi looking as big as 100% Kyuubi [x]

.
How does this disprove Full Kurama being larger than Half Kurama? Full Kurama was shown shrinking in size.

Inb4 100% Kyuubi is 5 times bigger as shown by footstep, when it's clear that Kyuubi shrinks massively when he loses his chakra [x]. I know there are anomalies' that people like to regard as true, but if you do that you'd have to regard other anomalies' from Bijuu's, such as [x] and [x]. Hachibi is making trees look smaller than humans in this, and those are 10 meter+ trees. Gobi is also looking twice the size of anomaly 100% Kurama. Same with Hachibi, Obito looks like a smaller piece of rubble on his hand, so I'm guessing Hachibi and Gobi>100% Kurama on size? Nope, just means all Bijuu are the same size when you look at the portrayal of Bijuu and the implications of these scans. Sasuke covered it, so his PS is as big as EMS Madara's.

Lol. Kurama lost it's Yin Chakra and shrunk in size. When Naruto took Kurama's chakra from it, it didn't shrink in the same way it did when it lost it's chakra against Minato, it only got more emaciated. Full Kurama's size actually decreased, but it didn't lose any meat on it's bones. Not to mention Kurama would return to normal after getting that chakra back. Kurama never got his Yin Chakra back, so there is no reason he'd get bigger again. Kishimoto's drawings are so inconsistent, that's one thing I'll agree with you on, but putting all scaling argumentation aside, we are shown that Full Kurama got smaller after losing it's Yin Chakra, yet it's still the same relative size as the other Bijuu. Full Kurama didn't return to it's normal size because it never got it's Yin Chakra back. How is Full Kurama=Half Kurama in size?

Also, Kurama is obviously the anomaly of the Bijuu. Always has been special, always will be special.

-Loses all it's Yin Chakra, rendered at half chakra, yet still has firepower equal to that of 5 Bijuu.

-It's chakra along with Indra and Asura's is what's necessary to bring out Hagoromo's spirit to the physical world. Why not the other Bijuu? Kurama is obviously special.

-It's Perfect Jinchuuriki get access to a chakra mode instead of the traditional red cloak. That chakra mode also has markings that allude to Hagoromo. (Magatama Necklace and the horn esque chakra in the front of the hair) And the Bijuu Mode is made from pure chakra instead of the Bijuu's actual physical form. Unlike the other 8 Bijuu.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Still nothing compared to Sasuke Naruto's PS Kurama leaping through the air.

I fail to see how. This statement your making sounds like it = to your other statement. " Madara's only took a few steps the entire match" is just as = to PS kurama singly leaping through the air.

I wasn't referring to that anyway. I was referring to his CQC battle with Naruto in Chapter 695. They were shown to be physical equals.

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, considers using wings for support.

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to go forward supports my point thats wings support better mobility.

Also, that doesn't mean that wings supplement every movement he makes.

My point was it supports it much more better then we have seen a wingless PS can do.

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Replace the many x's with narutoforums

I call BS. The trans seem so off. I tried looking at other fan-trans to see if they read it differently and couldn't find one.

You mean to tell me Madara kept on putting himself at a disadvantage against Hashirama Lol.

Ill concede until I find a better trans.

 

[KidGamer65]

I fail to see how. This statement your making sounds like it = to your other statement. " Madara's only took a few steps the entire match" is just as = to PS kurama singly leaping through the air.

Fail to see how? Running and leaping through the air are two forms of mobility, but the more mobile one is the one who can clearly jump through the air, not the guy who can run on the ground.

@bold: No... Not seeing how those two statements mean the same thing.

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, considers using wings for support.

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to go forward supports my point thats wings support better mobility.

Yeah, any type of lunge. What I'm talking about was when they were fighting in CQC, but all PS have wings anyway, so it's irrelevant.

My point was it supports it much more better then we have seen a wingless PS can do.

Ok.

I call BS. The trans seem so off. I tried looking at other fan-trans to see if they read it differently and couldn't find one.

You mean to tell me Madara kept on putting himself at a disadvantage against Hashirama Lol.

Ill concede until I find a better trans.

There are no wings on whatever is armored using Iso Susanoo.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Fail to see how? Running and leaping through the air are two forms of mobility, but the more mobile one is the one who can clearly jump through the air, not the guy who can run on the ground.

@bold: No... Not seeing how those two statements mean the same thing.

I feel like running alot should = at least a single leap from Sasuke. We cant say that Madara's doesnt know how to jump, therefore lacks less mobility then Sasuke's.

Yeah, any type of lunge. What I'm talking about was when they were fighting in CQC, but all PS have wings anyway, so it's irrelevant.

They have wings until a better trans.

There are no wings on whatever is armored using Iso Susanoo.

Why? Iso=PS and we seen Sasuke change its priorities so how come armoring something =/= no longer wings?

 

[KidGamer65]

I feel like running alot should = at least a single leap from Sasuke. We cant say that Madara's doesnt know how to jump, therefore lacks less mobility then Sasuke's.

If he leaps a similar distance through the air than Madara's Susanoo ran, then there is no way that they are equal mobility feats. Something that can move through the air is always going to be more mobile than something that can't. Madara's Susanoo runs on the ground, by feats. Sasuke's leaps through the air, by feats. It's clear which one is better.

Why? Iso=PS and we seen Sasuke change its priorities so how come armoring something =/= no longer wings?

Because that is what was shown. No idea why Kishi decided to make it like that, but there are no wings on anything armored with PS, as shown by Madara and Sasuke's Iso Susanoo not having any wings.

 

[DemonicAvenger]

Uh, no he didn't. He only got half of Hagoromo's power. If there is some kind of Senjutsu in there as well then it's included in Hagoromo's power, the same power Naruto got. Rikudo Sage Mode is Naruto's normal Sage Mode on steroids, the only reason he has it is probably because of his normal Sage Mode, take away Rikudo's powers and we are back to his normal Sage Mode, so that's where the Avatars are physically equal. Sage Kurama Avatar and PS.

Hagromo's Chakra is Senjutsu. Otherwise it wouldn't be capable of bypassing Onmyoton. Not only that, but Hagromo got his Chakra from Kaguya. Who as the Juubi, was noted to be a mass of Natural Energy.

It's also the reason why Naruto can enter BSM without gather Natural Energy after getting Hagromo's Chakra [

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], as well as the reason that Sasuke & Kakashi's Chidori/Raikiris can turn black (when the only time that's has happened was when Sasuke used Chidori with the Curse Seal, which is a form of SM)

Both of them gained an equal Senjutsu boost, The only advantage Naruto has is the applications of SM​

​

Naruto needed all 9 of his tails to block the v1 Juubi's Bijuu Dama and he still lost 6 of them. Not seeing how that's conclusive evidence that Sasuke can't take out one tail.

Juubi's TBB >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any possible attack Sasuke can put up. There's also the fact that he couldn't he couldn't do it after the buff, so it ends up the same pre-buff.

Then there's scaling. I know you believe that Naruto and Sasuke's Avatars were portrayed as equals against Juubito (by feats they're the same in body durability excluding tails), under that logic his PS's DC and Durability gets scaled to his KCC Cloak Legged Armored Susano'O.

Rikudo Senjutsu Kurama = Rikudo Senjutsu PS --> Senjutsu Kurama avatar = Senjutsu PS --> Kurama avatar = PS. So Naruto's Senjutsu Kurama avatar being equal to KCC Sasuke's Senjutsu Legged Armored Senjutsu means that Sasuke's PS gets scaled to that Susano'O (to an extent, it gets Sasuke root slashing feat since Juugo's Curse Seal hadn't enhanced it yet)​

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Why would he take heavy damage from a normal Bijuu Dama? That explosion contained the power of PS Chidori and Bijuu Dama, and he only lost half an arm, half a face and half a wing. If a Bijuu Dama is ever fired he can fly to evade it or he can wrap his wings around him, just like Naruto does his tails, in order to protect the main body. Scale down from VoTE 2 and Sasuke has the power to take out one of Naruto's tails with 2-3 hits. Scale down even further since Naruto doesn't have Senjutsu in this thread and Sasuke can take them out in 1-2 hits.

Chidori doesn't explode, never has and never will. The explosion from all their clashes have come from Naruto's Rasengan. The collective damage they took was exclusively from Bijudama.

Wings don't mean much either since he can't use them without Rikudo's Chakra

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I'll try to reply to our BM Naruto v Hashirama/SM Naruto v Minato debate in a little bit. Waiting for a couple people in the house to go to sleep so I can head outside for a smoke Lol I got a couple good counters for you. If not, I'll try tommorow.​

​

 

[KidGamer65]

Hagromo's Chakra is Senjutsu. Otherwise it wouldn't be capable of bypassing Onmyoton. Not only that, but Hagromo got his Chakra from Kaguya. Who as the Juubi, was noted to be a mass of Natural Energy.​

I know, so wouldn't that be Naruto's Sage Powers+Hagoromo's Chakra (Senjutsu) (Six Path's Sage Mode)=Sasuke's Susanoo+Hagoromo's Chakraa (Senjutsu)? Hagoromo's chakra was given to both of them, yet Naruto clearly has something extra, which is why his Six Path's Sage Mode merely looks like an enhanced version of his old Bijuu Sage Mode, which is why he retains the Toad Sage markings despite using a different Sage Mode.

It's also the reason why Naruto can enter BSM without gather Natural Energy after getting Hagromo's Chakra [

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], as well as the reason that Sasuke & Kakashi's Chidori/Raikiris can turn black (when the only time that's has happened was when Sasuke used Chidori with the Curse Seal, which is a form of SM)

Agreed.

Both of them gained an equal Senjutsu boost, The only advantage Naruto has is the applications of SM

​

They both received an equal Senjutsu boost, but Naruto had Sage Mode, making the benefits of his Senjutsu better than someone who lacks Sage Mode, which would be Sasuke in this case.

Bijuu Sage Naruto gets Hagoromo's chakra and his Bijuu Sage Mode becomes Six Path's Sage Mode, and because Hagoromo's chakra is Senjutsu, he can access the mode without gathering Nature Energy first. Take away that chakra and he's back to standard Bijuu Sage Mode, not to Bijuu Mode, which is why PS scales down to the BSM Avatar, not the BM Avatar, when it comes to physical strength, speed and durability.

Not seeing why it'd scale down to Bijuu Mode, when if taking Naruto's own Sage Powers pre Hagoromo buff out of the equation, he never would have received Six Path's Sage Mode, cause it's merely an enhanced form of Toad Sage Mode, hence the markings.

Juubi's TBB >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any possible attack Sasuke can put up. There's also the fact that he couldn't he couldn't do it after the buff, so it ends up the same pre-buff.[/QUOTE]

Except he did take out one tail after the buff, so he can do it pre buff. Juubi's Bijuu Dama being far stronger isn't a counter argument when I can accurately claim, via power scaling, that Sasuke, with enough hits, can take out one of Naruto's tails, and because I'm not claiming PS can do anywhere near as much damage as the Juubi's Laser can.

Then there's scaling. I know you believe that Naruto and Sasuke's Avatars were portrayed as equals against Juubito (by feats they're the same in body durability excluding tails), under that logic his PS's DC and Durability gets scaled to his KCC Cloak Legged Armored Susano'O.

Rikudo Senjutsu Kurama = Rikudo Senjutsu PS --> Senjutsu Kurama avatar = Senjutsu PS --> Kurama avatar = PS. So Naruto's Senjutsu Kurama avatar being equal to KCC Sasuke's Senjutsu Legged Armored Senjutsu means that Sasuke's PS gets scaled to that Susano'O (to an extent, it gets Sasuke root slashing feat since Juugo's Curse Seal hadn't enhanced it yet)

​

I thought they were close in some areas, but not because of portrayal. Physical strength is something they aren't matched in, since Naruto matches Sasuke's sword swings in that form with his own physical strength, yet PS matched Kurama Avatar in physical strength, hand to hand. Speed is something they are matched in. Not sure why his PS's DC would be scaled to his KCC Complete Susanoo w/ legs. (It wasn't Armored)

Chidori doesn't explode, never has and never will. The explosion from all their clashes have come from Naruto's Rasengan. The collective damage they took was exclusively from Bijudama.​

The Last: Naruto the Movie disagrees. Sasuke's Chidori completely obliterated a Meteor the size of the Hokage Mountain, can't do that if it doesn't explode in some way. So the damage they took was from PS Chidori and Bijuu Dama.

Wings don't mean much either since he can't use them without Rikudo's Chakra

DB4 says that Perfect Susanoo in general can fly, so his EMS Susanoo has to have wings.

---

I'll try to reply to our BM Naruto v Hashirama/SM Naruto v Minato debate in a little bit. Waiting for a couple people in the house to go to sleep so I can head outside for a smoke Lol I got a couple good counters for you. If not, I'll try tommorow.

​

Alright man.