Brother Numpsay
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I guess.
This argument you making is pretty much the argument juzumaki is making stating Iso=/=PS. If PS has the ability to make wings, as what was stated, then PS can make wings.
EMS Sasuke vs BM Naruto
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DemonicAvenger
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They both got the same Senjutsu buff, but Naruto just gets the benefits SM. Like better sensing or better reactions. Their avatars would have gotten equal boosts from being the physical manifestations of their chakra. It's not like Naruto is using two different Sage Mode's at the same time either, Senjutsu is just nature energy bonded with Chakra.
The only difference is that Naruto gets the benefits of SM. Their avatars would have gotten the same boost.
Thats doesn't change the fact that Sasuke's PS had an equal Senjutsu buff.
Its to show the high end of the tails durability. VOTE 2 scaling puts Sasuke's PS on par with KCC EMS Sasuke's standing Susano'O. He would eventually be able to break one tail, but it's going to take many more strikes than what you believe. Especially when he's switching up tails. He couldn't viably do it at VOTE 2 against a casual Naruto. So there's no reason to assume it would happen here.
*Edit: I don't know where your getting that he took out one of the tails either. He's not missing any [
*Edit: I don't know where your getting that he took out one of the tails either. He's not missing any [
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It hinges on BSM Kurama avatar being equal to KCC Senjutsu Susano'O in strength. It would scale his PS to that Susano'O.
Armored is just what I call that stage of Susano'O, I'm guessing you would call it V3?
Armored is just what I call that stage of Susano'O, I'm guessing you would call it V3?
Ive only seen a gif, but it just looks like an application of Chidori stream or simply conducting the Chidori through the meteor (conduction with a rock defies logic, but Sasuke did it against Itachi)
Databook also says that Sasuke doesn't have Perfect Susano'O, so your argument kinda defeats itself.
Plus no Susano'O that wasn't utilized with Genuine Rikudo Chakra has ever been shown to have wings. Not even Edo Madara who had the same Indra Chakra as Sasuke as well as Ashura's Chakra. Or even Rinne Tensei Madara who essentially had the same type of chakra as Hagromo (not to be confused with the strength of Hagromo's Chakra)
There's also a lot more leeway in Naruto's favor in this scaling. All this VOTE scaling is based on their avatars matching each other, but Naruto did this casually. Which means his avatar is at the very least equal to Sasuke's PS. Logically, he'd overpower him if he took the offensive and didn't just match him. Especially with the tails
Plus no Susano'O that wasn't utilized with Genuine Rikudo Chakra has ever been shown to have wings. Not even Edo Madara who had the same Indra Chakra as Sasuke as well as Ashura's Chakra. Or even Rinne Tensei Madara who essentially had the same type of chakra as Hagromo (not to be confused with the strength of Hagromo's Chakra)
There's also a lot more leeway in Naruto's favor in this scaling. All this VOTE scaling is based on their avatars matching each other, but Naruto did this casually. Which means his avatar is at the very least equal to Sasuke's PS. Logically, he'd overpower him if he took the offensive and didn't just match him. Especially with the tails
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KidGamer65
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Nope. I'm saying that Iso has no wings because that is what was explicitly shown.
@DA: I'll concede all points except the PS wings point, but look at the far left tail on Naruto's Avatar, it's shorter than the rest. As for PS having wings, no, DB stating that Sasuke doesn't have PS doesn't defeat my argument. It states that all Perfect Susanoo can fly, which is something that isn't proven wrong by the manga, in fact, every PS we've seen bar Madara's has shown the ability to fly. Yet manga proves DB wrong on the fact that only Madara can use PS. Not to mention if Madara is listed as the only user, and it says PS can fly, then it means Madara's PS can fly despite not sh
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Those look like arms, but they could very well stretch out to be wings, and they should considering the DB explicitly states that PS can fly. Also, RT Madara never used PS.
Matters naught, it seems like he regained his size as time passed. Similarly to Naruto when he fought Kurama, except he took far less chakra than Minato did, probably not even 1/10th. It's rather obvious that the size difference between his hands/arms is not even remotely comparable [
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]->[
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]. And no, going by this logic, which is implying Kurama does not grow back in size,
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of any other Bijuu pre-chakra loss; makes no sense. So no, getting smaller and skinnier are two sides of the same coin when it comes to chakra loss for Bijuus.Kurama's chakra is far more potent, that's the greatest reason he is so much more powerful than the other Bijuu. And Kurama's firepower when his chakra is combined with Naruto's is that strong; it is not as strong as the 5 Bijuu's without his chakra. It's a rather clear difference in power between BM avatar and Kyuubi himself; a massive one at that.
For Kurama to be the anomaly, he'd always have had to be the anomaly. Yet
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scan disagrees with such notions. Getting skinnier is basically the same thing on a smaller degree. When Kurama lost his chakra from Minato, his entire bone structure shrunk, along with his muscle size, etc. Against Naruto, for reasons we do not know, it was mostly flesh, muscle and slight bone size. Either way, the loss of chakra resulted in a shrinking in size, which would soon be regained. And yes, it did lose meat on its bones, otherwise there'd be too much to hold for a far smaller bone structure. In simple words, everything got smaller proportionally. Well his chakra mixed with Naruto's, who himself has both Yin and Yang, though in different quantities. Given Kurama stole chakra from Naruto [
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], one could go a step further and say this chakra could manifest into further Yin/Yang chakra for the BM avatar. Either way, the size as I have already shown, doesn't seem different since Kurama was a kid, and does not seem much different now either given anomaly's are disregarded.-With Naruto's chakra and control which is shown to amplify his capabilities exponentially.
-True, but doesn't hold much for this specific topic since he's been shown as a kid as the same size despite being the 'Biju special one'.
-That's purely due to Minato's seal. It became apparent that the way Minato designed Naruto's seal was for Naruto to gain access of Kurama's chakra in an isolated manner. Naruto also has the traditional cloak, but given the seal is all over his KCM cloak, and all the convo's Jiraiya has had over Naruto's seal, it should be obvious this was Minato's intention alone. Again, the seal is all over BM, it allows Naruto and Kurama to combine their chakra, instead of the two fighting independently.
KidGamer65
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Like I said, it didn't shrink in the same way it did when it lost it's chakra. When Naruto took it's chakra, it shrunk as in losing a bunch of weight and becoming emaciated like Nagato did. When it lost it's Yin Chakra, it didn't lose any meat on it's bones, it shrunk in overall size, but kept it's regular physical appearance. They are not similar, at all.
If Nagato was reduced to half his size would that be the same as him looking like
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? Nope. Different kind of shrinking there. Wouldn't even call Nagato's case shrinking.If makes no sense is your only counter argument then there is nothing more to say here. Makes no sense isn't a counter argument. Kurama being that much larger than the other Bijuu is clearly what the manga is showing.
Those Bijuu were Perfect Jins as well, isolate the Jinchuuriki and take the Bijuu and you have the same result, regardless, Kurama is still MUCH stronger than the other Bijuu and that's my whole point. "Why?" isn't relevant. The fact is, it is, so saying it being an anomaly is impossible makes no sense.
And why would that have to be the case?
They are not the same thing. Pretty clear difference between getting skinnier and getting smaller. If Kurama losing his Yin Chakra was ANYTHING like Kurama losing his chakra to Naruto, then Kurama would have been shown to be emaciated as all hell back when Minato took it's power, but it wasn't.
Kurama never regained it's Yin Chakra. I don't know why people keep saying that this is what happened, but it obviously isn't. The fact that Naruto's Kurama is still shown as pure Yang debunks him getting his Yin Chakra. KCM and BM Naruto cause Mokuton to grow at an accelerated rate, because Yang is predominant, because there is no Yin.
Only because it shrunk in size, not because meat was taken off it's bones like what happened to Kurama when Naruto took his chakra. The two situations are undeniably different. Undeniably.
Yet the BM Avatar is predominantly Yang as explained above. Also, how would Kurama return to it's original size from getting chakra from someone with nowhere near as much chakra as even a fourth of it's own chakra let alone half?
Chakra control doesn't amplify abilities. Jinchuuriki can focus the power of the Bijuu better than the Bijuu can itself. Give Kurama and the rest Jinchuuriki, yet for some odd reason, Kurama's Jinchuuriki is tiers above anyone else's Jinchuuriki...because Kurama is that much stronger than the rest of the Bijuu. Even Gyuki noted
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strength. Far above that of the other Bijuu, while the others are dead equal.Yeah, as a kid, has no bearing right now.
Considering Naruto gets a whole new seal once he tames Kurama, which is related to Hagoromo in some way as stated by Kurama, no, Minato's seal has nothing to do with Naruto's KCM or Bijuu Mode. Chapter 499. "A New Seal" The Torii Seal is what Naruto uses now, and it is not the same as the Hakke Fuuin.
And why would Minato's sealing jutsu have anything to do with a cloak that has markings that allude to Hagoromo, a man who existed long before the Uzumaki, Minato, or the Hakke Fuuin? Minato wanting them to fight together doesn't mean that his cloak is going to gain those markings from his sealing jutsu.
No, it lost a bunch of flesh and it got skinnier, but it definitely got smaller too. You can't shrink in size like it did when Minato took its chakra merely by bone, yet not lose flesh. It merely lost everything proportionally. Kurama would've looked massively fat had he shrunk in bone size and structure and kept his flesh/muscle amounts the same.
That was the smallest part of my counter argument; no need to be a straw man. It didn't make sense as in if Kurama lost half of his chakra, he'd only lose half his size. Kurama lost 3/4th-4/5th his size, so by that logic Kurama that was with Madara was 4x the size of all Bijuu, despite having been equal size as a child. That's some growth spurt right there..
Uhh.. What? Perfect Jin's switch with their Bijuu. They do not combine chakra in BM.. Ever. Naruto's BM avatar does, so that whole point is moot. I would think that much would've been clear, Hachibi as Bee's Jin is as strong as he is without Bee being his Jin (alone in power/durability/etc.) That is not the case for Naruto's BM avatar.
Because they were portrayed as equal sized creatures even when he was 100%. You not wanting it to be the case is irrelevant, because Kishi showed them next to each other, and even when he was the 'special one' he still was equivalent in size to the rest of them. And yes, Kurama has always been necessary for Hagromo's chakra, even when he was the same size as the other Bijuu.
They both got skinnier and smaller, albeit 100% Kurama got smaller and skinnier proportionally and Naruto's Kurama got skinnier than he did smaller.
Everyone has some Yin and some Yang inside them. Naruto causes Mokuton to grow at an accelerated rate due to his massive life energy. His Yin is still present there, so the bold makes no sense as that is no pre-set requirement nor have I ever heard of such a thing. Being predominant does not mean the other section is inexistent; merely in less proportion.
Yes, it does. Otherwise Kurama would've been fat would too much flesh for his 1/4th sized bones to carry. Undeniably different, yet so very linked due to their comparabilities.
And the explanation was moot. Because Kurama has shown to be capable of summoning more chakra for Naruto to use. The Juubi was able to complete his own chakra without having Kurama's chakra, by using portions of chakra to summon more. Could be relatively true for Naruto's own chakra, except he makes up for it with other chakra. It brings up the possibility that Kurama replaced the missing Yin with Yang, since chakra regenerates. You also would have to realise that BM Naruto has stood on water, but such should not be possible for someone without Yin [
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]. Even normal jutsu have this requirement, but standing on water is one specific one addressed their. Spirit energy=Yin; he has it by either regaining chakra, or Naruto. At the end of the day, Kurama had 16 years to regain Yin chakra, I'm pretty sure he had long accomplished that, and could've even increased the amount of Yin he acquired by gathering more [
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Because TBB's are black and white and this could be a plausible representation of Yin and Yang. Jutsu are said to always require Yin and Yang, this could merely be showing the Yin and Yang are far more potent, but in a different ratio. There's many ways to go about such, and all are irrelevant when you realise 100% Kurama and 50% Kurama are the same size.
No, it's because Kurama is stronger sure, but a massive part of it is Naruto's chakra mixed into the seal whomever made is being utilised. It isn't purely Kurama, it is Naruto's chakra as well which makes it so powerful. Hachibi is not dead equal to other Bijuu, not even close, Lol.
Huh? Because you don't want it to=fact? Nope, Kurama has no reason to have exponentially grown. Kurama by your own descriptions of hi having been an anomaly would've had to be an anomaly from the time he was a kid. But then again, he wasn't, but was an anomaly, so Kurama is the same size.
True.
True.
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KidGamer65
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Yeah, only because it lost flesh, because it lost weight, not because it's size was actually cut in half like it did when Minato took Kurama's
They both got smaller, but the extent and the method was COMPLETELY different, that much isn't debatable. If they were the same, it would have been cut in size, but retained a healthy appearance, or they both would have lost so much weight they'd look emaciated. One happening to the other means that they aren't the same.
Lol, except that is exactly what happened, so whether or not you think that makes sense doesn't matter, as for the rest, that is exactly what the manga is shown us.
And since when was entering Bijuu Mode different for B and Naruto or any other Jinchuuriki? Now you are making claims with no evidence backing them. The only thing that makes Naruto's Bijuu Mode different is the Bijuu Mode itself.
Except they werent'.
Except I say that because the manga shows him getting smaller.
Showing them next to each other=/=Portraying equality in size or in any way, shape or form, unless you are actually going to post a scan of them being shown in size as being equal, then don't try any portrayal argument.
After he lost his chakra?
Your point? If this refers to kid Kurama, it's irrelevant. What they were as kids has nothing to do with what they are now. If this refers to any point after he lost his chakra, then it's clear why he's the same size.
Which means they are different. Case closed.
Not Kurama.
Correction, because of Kurama's Yang Chakra, not Naruto's.
Except the fact that Kurama had his Yin completely separated from him already debunks the fact that 'everyone has to have Yin and Yang" Also, DB4 shows everyone's elemental chakra natures, not everyone has Yin and Yang, most have Yin or Yang. Except Kurama lost his Yin Chakra.
Lol, so this would mean you are saying that he has more Yang than Yin, and why in the world would that be the case?
Similar isn't the same, and if it's not the same that means there was something different about Minato taking Kurama's chakra, and Naruto taking Kurama's chakra, which is my point. They were different. Not even debatable.
Does that mean it can regenerate it's Yin Chakra? Nope.
It took in energy to complete it's chakra. Does that mean that Kurama can regenerate his Yin Chakra? Once again, no.
Except DB4 shows that Naruto only ha the 5 elemental chakra natures + Yang, not Yin. So how can he stand on water by your logic? Lmao. Yeah, no. Spiritual and Physical Energy is not Yin and Yang Chakra, makes no sense considering DB4 solidifies the fact that not everyone has Yin or Yang and because Yin and Yang refers to chakra natures. Spiritual/Physical Energy is Energy, not chakra. Those energies are combined to make stamina, which is then converted into chakra. If what you were saying was true, they'd be converting Yin and Yang Chakra into normal chakra...Lol, no.
Except Naruto's Kurama Avatar doing that to Mokuton shows that it's predominantly Yang, by far. No reason to believe that he regenerated all of his Yin Chakra. No reason to believe he regenerated any of it.
Yang and Yin can make these stronger, but they aren't them.
Gonna need evidence. Black and White=/=Yin and Yang. Physical Energy and Spiritual Energy=/=Yin and Yang. Jutsu were NEVER stated to all need Yin and Yang, not sure where that came from. DB4 shows the chakra natures of the Shinobi, and not all of them having Yin or Yang natured chakra.
Which is my point. Kurama is stronger than the other Bijuu, who have shown to be relatively on par. How much stronger is not relevant to me as it's clear that the gap is not small.
Hachibi has shown no feat outside of being used with Killer B that'd lead me to believe it's far above the other Bijuu.
No, because them being equal in size as a kid doesn't mean they are equal in size now. That is just basic common sense. Goes for everything. Two children being the same size as kids means just about nothing when referencing how big they'll grow in the future.
Yet he did. "No reason" isn't a counter argument.
Like I said, why in the world would he have to be an anomaly in size from the start to be an anomaly in size now?
What? It lost flesh, had it not lost as much bone it would have looked emaciated as did it against Naruto (though on larger bones). However, it lost more bone there, unlike Naruto's scenario. Either way, its size was reduced bone wise and flesh wise, nothing to debate here. He got smaller un-proportionally.
They aren't the same, that is fact. However, there's nothing to say that the two differ, losing bone and losing flesh are distinguishable in what way? Gaining flesh and gaining bone would both come from chakra replenishing, so as I said before, they are two sides of the same coin.
Except 100% Kurama is not 4x the size of 50% Kurama, so the entire point goes out the window. He's the same size, and if he were bigger, he'd be two times the size. However, him being apparently 4x times the size, and thus shrinking by 1/4th means Kurama regained a lot of size (thus size can be gained again..........)
uh what? Please don't tell me that you are trying to say BM Naruto=50% Kurama. EVERYTHING points towards BM Naruto being far stronger in every aspect. On the other hand, we have nothing to suggest Hachibi is stronger when he has a Jin apart from his power being controlled. Naruto combines his chakra with Kurama through the seal 'rikudo has placed'. Hachibi does not, nothing suggests he does, and he merely switches with his Jin, he does not combine chakra with the Bijuu..
Except they were as children, no debate at all here.
Except he grew back since he was not 1/4th the size of 100% Kurama.
What the actual fck? Kishi showed all Bijuu's next to each other and it is clear to even a sub-zero IQ that they are relatively the same in size.
Before, meaning he was never larger to begin with. Hence, 50% Kurama gained back his size. This is my entire point, it's really not that hard to understand.
What? Everything is referring to kid Kurama. It's not irrelevant in any way. Kurama was manifested as he is now but with smaller amounts of chakra (but still the proportion of his chakra to other Bijuu). All 9 Bijuu were split from the Juubi, that is their maximum chakra. Kurama does not have any exponential growth, as that would mean after 16 years he'd be far larger than the other Bijuu's after having been split in half. Nothing at all suggests there was ever a reason for Kurama to have gained larger growth than the other Bijuu. He was shown as relatively the same size as other Bijuu when he was a kid. When Naruto had him, he was still the same size as the other Bijuu. In some scans of the Madara fight, one can once again suggest he is relatively the same size as 50% Kurama.
Addressed.
I was addressing Shinobi.
Yes, doesn't change the point.
And thus he regained it.
DB shows Yin and Yang, cool. Point? Kushina is an Uzumaki who is famous for chakra life force (Yang) yet she is listed as a Yin user. Saying she has none at all is fallacious. Either way, Kakashi showed that everyone has Yin and Yang in the scan I posted, manga holds over fallacious DB's when both say contradictory things. Not to mention, it's only contradictory in your misconstrued take on it. DB is showing the character's dominant nature (seemingly). Neji is neither Yin or Yang despite Yin Byakugan. Sakura is listed as both Yin and Yang yet Tsunade is not. Obito isn't listed as Yang despite having obtained Hashirama's DNA, zetsu body, etc. No reason for me to trust DB IV's stats over manga's facts.
Because he is using Naruto's chakra to fuel his own replenishing. Since Naruto's chakra grows back as well, he has a nigh endless supply.
Addressed.
If Naruto's chakra is what is acting as his own Yin, then yes. Otherwise Yang can make up for the lost Yin with double the Yang supply, in theory.
But then again he has Yin as shown with chakra moulding diagram. And Lmao at bold, this is manga logic, Naruto has some Yin, he's simply not predominant with Yin, or has any substantial quantity.
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The rest is moot.It was merely a plausibility. DB4 is irrelevant.
Being stronger does not constitute to greater size, as shown with the Hachibi not being larger than others.
Hachibi and Bee do not merge chakra, if you are suggesting they do you'll need proof of that.. I'll wait.
Um that's terrible logic. Kids grow differently because genetics are different. Bijuu have no difference bar chakra potency and quantity. Good thing Kurama was as large as the other Bijuu even when his chakra was stronger and greater, no reason for him to have a growth spurt without having anything similar to puberty, genetic, etc. He grows proportionally to other Bijuu, there's literally 0 reason for him to grow in a different way.
There's no reason is a counter claim in this scenario because there's no factor that can influence greater size.
Because your argument for Kurama's size being 4x greater is Kurama being a special Bijuu all his life i.e. stronger, Rikudo necessity, etc. Those were true when he was a kid too, yet he was no anomaly in size. Why would it suddenly change?
KidGamer65
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I agree, there is nothing to debate here. The two occurrences are NOT the same. Why are you still going on about them? I don't care if they both got smaller, they didn't get smaller in the same ways.
Dafuq? So they aren't the same, but they aren't different? Are you realizing how little sense that actually makes? My main point is, he lost chakra both times, yet the way he shrunk was different. How similar it is isn't relevant, if it's different, then it's different, meaning there was something different about the way he lost the chakra.
Now, are you admitting they are the same or are you admitting that they are similar? Cause the answer is pretty clear cut to me.
Shrinking in size=/=Losing weight. Result? Smaller Kurama=/=Emaciated Kurama (Also smaller due to lost weight) Yes, you get smaller in a sense via both methods, but that doesn't change the fact that the method is different.
Except he is.
@bolded underlined: Apparently not as far as the manga goes....assuming that he was shown to shrink by a factor of 4, where did that even come from anyway?
Except he didn't regain any size that he lost against Minato.
Talk about being a straw man...smh.
Lol, never once said that. I said that Naruto entering Bijuu Mode is no different from B entering Bijuu Mode. Bijuu gives them chakra and they enter Bijuu Mode with said chakra. Did I say that BM Naruto=Half Kurama? Obviously not. Did I deny that Naruto and Kurama merge their chakras? No I did not.
It's already been stated that Jins are better than Bijuu because they can focus the Bijuu's power.
Except I'm not referring to them as children, at all. So stop bringing it up.
Except nothing shows that he grew back, nor does anything imply that he regained his missing Yin Half.
Like I said, unless you have a scan of him showing Full Kurama being shown to be the same size as the other Bijuu, don't bother, cause I'm not gonna take your word for it. If you have this scan, instead of posting meaningless replies, why don't you post it? Cause as far as I've seen no scan shows Full Kurama being the same size as the other Bijuu. None.
Except I'm still not seeing any conclusive evidence that shows Full Kurama to be the same size as the other Bijuu. Inb4 more posts of Kid Kurama and the rest of the Bijuu.
And in some scans of the same exact fight you can suggest that he is not the same size, that he is much bigger. Unless you have something of the same size to compare both Kuramas to, don't bother trying to make a comparison. Not when Kishimoto's drawings are inconsistent when it comes to scale, the rest is basically you saying that he's the same size because there is no reason for him to be larger, yet there is evidence that he is larger, so I suggest you counter that directly instead of saying "There's no reason".
Except he didn't.
Strong Life Force=/=Yang CHAKRA. Manga never equates the two, so no, it's not fallacious, nor did anything Kakashi say even begin to imply that everyone has Yin and Yang. Sprit Energy is not Yin, same goes for Physical Energy and Yang. How in the hell can energy=chakra anyway? They are not the same thing.
Bold obviously makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Shinobi only have one affinity, but they can still get access to other Natures that aren't their affinities. Kakashi's affinity is Raiton, if DB4 only showed us their affinities, then why would it shows us that Kakashi has every Nature? Unless you think every nature is his affinity? Lol. Btw Affinity=Dominant Nature.
Byakugan being Yin is nothing but your assumption. Gonna need some facts to back that up.
Sakura being listed as Yin and Yang doesn't mean that Sakura has to be, cause Sakura is NOT Tsunade, and being a Senju or Uzumaki descendant doesn't automatically grant you Yang Release, another assumption, or should I say miscalculation brought upon by misinterpretation of manga panels. That also goes for Obito.
Never said to trust DB over Manga, good thing you are doing nothing but misinterpreting the manga, because it doesn't clash with the DB on this front.
The only time he was stealing Naruto's chakra was during that brief period over the War Arc. Not nearly enough to replenish his missing Yin Half, so there is no dice on this point.
Except Naruto only lost chakra to Kurama during that brief period in the War Arc, once again, nowhere near the amount necessary for him to replenish his missing Yin Half.
Uh, no diagram shows him having Yin, at least not a diagram that you haven't misinterpreted. I'll go with the DB4, which says he has no Yin Release, so how can he stand on water? Lmao. Stop. Please.
Spiritual Energy and Physical Energy forming the basis of Yin and Yang Nature Release Chakras does NOT equal them being Yin and Yang Nature Release chakras. How did you manage to twist the term "forming the basis" so that you'd come to the conclusion that Spirit Energy=Yin and Body Energy=Yang? Yang and Yin are chakra natures, Spirit Energy and Body Energy are energy. Energy is NOT equal to chakra and that's a manga fact, so I have no idea how you can sit here and say that Body Energy=Yang Chakra. Makes no sense.
Actually, no, it's very relevant.
Never said it did.
Never said they did.
The point is, using their size in the past to justify their size now is a nonsensical approach, and considering that Kurama did end up bigger than the rest, this "no reason" argument of yours doesn't hold.
It's irrelevant if there is a factor that can influence greater size when he was already shown to have greater size.
If only that was my argument....but it isn't. My argument is that Kurama is larger than the rest of the Bijuu because he was shown to be, not because he's special in other, unrelated, ways.
KidGamer65
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I'll also throw this in. Size comparison between Full Kurama and BM Naruto.
-Mokuryu vs. BM Naruto.
-Mokuryu vs. Full Kurama.
Mokuryu can coil around the entirety of BM Naruto more times than it can Full Kurama, meaning Full Kurama is obviously larger. If you or anyone else tries to assert that Hashirama's is larger, I'd like some evidence with that assertion, cause Madara has shown to perfectly replicate Hashirama's Mokuton.
-Mokuryu vs. BM Naruto.
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-Mokuryu vs. Full Kurama.
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Mokuryu can coil around the entirety of BM Naruto more times than it can Full Kurama, meaning Full Kurama is obviously larger. If you or anyone else tries to assert that Hashirama's is larger, I'd like some evidence with that assertion, cause Madara has shown to perfectly replicate Hashirama's Mokuton.
Brother Numpsay
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One can argue that Mokuryu didn't have the chance yet to coil around the same as 100 Kurama. If 100 Kurama truly was larger then Avatar Kurama then the head and hand grip size shouldn't even be comparable:
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Then again 50 in the flesh came back as the same size as the other Buijuu's, without his other 50 flesh:
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Theres no way anyone can win this argument really lol
KidGamer65
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Nope. We can see the end of Mokuryu's tail in that scan, and there is barely any of it left that isn't wrapped around Kurama. Compare that to BM Naruto and the difference is clear.
But yeah, you definitely have a point here. Too many inconsistencies to easily come to a conclusion.
Again, I know they are different in the way they got smaller, however getting smaller is still getting smaller, and losing bones and/or flesh should be no different than losing bone and/or flesh. They regain the flesh and muslce over time, so why not the bone?
It makes sense actually. And once again, Kurama lost flesh in both scenario's, he could no longer lose anymore flesh when he had no flesh to begin with. Hence he lost bone. I don't see why bone would not be re-gainable when flesh/muscle and skin is.
Addressed.
Except he definitely isn't by any scan bar the fallacious one that shows his hand shrinking by 4x. Except you yourself posted a scan of Kurama's hand around Mokuryu (which is your only basis of 1/4th size bar any anomaly sized Kurama), which is the exact equivalent of 50% BM Naruto's hand size around Mokuryu. You used that scan to support your argument and it backfired, as hand size is in fact your only true basis for 100% Kurama>50% Kurama. My hypothesis is proven by that very scan since your entire basis for Kurama's far larger size
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, which is seemingly just as large with 50% Kurama. And in fact, that hand would warp around the Mokuryu several times, over, yet it didn't and made it apparent that my hypothesis of Kuram regaining his size was in fact true.Came from his hand being 1/4th the paw he imprinted on the ground.
Except he did.
Straw man? no, no.
You insinuate Perfect Jin's are all going to give their Bijuu greater stats when that isn't true. They only focus power, they do not grant greater durability, etc. as does BM Naruto's chakra avatar.
And yes, Naruto combines his chakra with Kurama's to make the avatar, Killer Bee does not insert his own chakra into his BM, as such is not possible for him. Ergo you missed the whole point, in which I suggest Kurama is stronger because of Naruto and his own power, not solely his own power as nothing suggests so.
Yes, relevance?
Except it's a good basis for size, so I will keep bringing it up.
Except the scan you posted in your second post does.
You yourself posted it, I need naught post another. His hand is all you based everything on. Yet his hand=100% Kurama's. So..... The size of Kurama in relation to Madara can support it in some occasions, him as kids being the same size further supports it.
You have posted the scan my friend.
Except he did.
Yet the Yin Yang is right here [
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]. Kakashi said the two were necessary for moulding chakra. Yin Yang is the same [
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]. So the point stands. Energy can be seen as chakra, TBB is merely a ball of massive kinetic energy. So once again, my point stands.Affinities were only ever ascribed to the 5 nature transformations. Never was it spoken of in a 7 nature context or a Yin Yang context. Rest is irrelevant.
What?.. Maybe because he held the Yin seal on his hand while Hagromo held the Yang seal? It is clearly Yin. Obito possessing Senju DNA should grant him Yang, no debate about this at all.
But it does.
Fair enough.
Yet Kakashi's does, hence DB is talking about predominant Yin-Yang. Yet the Yin Yang circles were the only depictions present. Either way, body energy and yang chakra are necessities for one another. You cannot have body energy without Yang and you cannot have Yang without body energy. If you have spiritual energy then you've formed the basis for Yin. If you have bodily energy then you've formed the basis for Yang. How can someone be able to use both spiritual energy and body energy proficiently yet without utilising any Yin or Yang, ever. That makes no sense, especially in Neji's case.
Out of context.
Yet you suggest Kurama being stronger would stand as basis for his 4x size>other Bijuu?
Yet you suggested isolating Jinchuriki would give the same result as Naruto having had his chakra merged with Kurama, which is obviously a massive power-up.
Yet it does, because your scan shows his hand is just as large now, and his body was just as large as kids, so the point stands strongly.
Except 50% Kurama is just as large as him.
Yet you were capable of disproving this yourself and supporting my hypothesis. So there's not much to argue here.
KidGamer65
Active member
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@bold: And once again, that isn't relevant. The fact that they are different in the way they got smaller means that Naruto taking Kurama's chakra=/=Minato taking Kurama's Yin Chakra when it comes to the details of the process.
Lol, obviously not how it happened, otherwise Kurama's flesh and bone wouldn't have dropped in size proportionally when Minato took his chakra. He would have lost way more of one than the other, also flesh and skin isn't bone, so him regaining one isn't proof he can regain the other. That simple.
Reasons, valid reasons as to why that scan is fallacious? The manga panels show Kurama shrinking, thus he got smaller, thus he is not as large as he was before. Nothing you can do will change the fact he got smaller, all you can do is try and disprove that he didn't regain the lost size.
Dafuq? Have you been reading my posts? Kurama getting smaller is based on his WHOLE ENTIRE BODY getting smaller, not just his hand. That scan doesn't backfire on me since it shows that BM Naruto's body is smaller than Full Kurama's body, yet it helps your argument because the hand still fits around the dragon. Lol, let's not try and ignore evidence next time.
Never said that. In fact, all I said was Perfect Jin>Bijuu, and that they focus the Bijuu's power.
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KidGamer65
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Then there is also the fact there are multiple scans showing the size of Bijuu compared to Humans. If you really think that these scans show something 4x smaller than a regular sized Bijuu, then....Lol.
No way in hell is he 4x smaller than a Bijuu in these scans. No way in hell.
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No way in hell is he 4x smaller than a Bijuu in these scans. No way in hell.
Kamui Sama
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I think those scans shows it best and it seems only logical that full kyuubi > than 50% avatar but Kishi really is inconsistent with sizes
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I personally think this is just a drawing error ^ Lol
Kagustuchi
Active member
The scan that I have provided shows a direct comparsion
It's more valid here.
Not to mention that madara is also taller than naruto
So this just goes to show that full kyuubi is evidently larger than half
Wait before I go on, what scans are you talking about? Literally, the only thing you had going for you as a direct comparison between the Bijuu was the hand size being so much smaller compared to previously. Since it's confirmed to be the same a this point, it means his bone size did in fact grow back, rendering the whole bone=/=flesh argument moot. So I'll repeat, what scan do you speak of that puts 100% Kurama above 50% Kurama in size? Hopefully not another anomaly scan which you claim makes him larger, I have tonnes of those for other Bijuu, they don't hold much weight in an actual size comparison due to inconsistent art. And do note,
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, who is
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, who is just
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, who
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@Kifflom; regarding when Kurama is shown as small while regarding when Kurama at 100% is shown as much larger as their factual sizes; is pathetic. I can get you 100's of scans were Naruto is 100 times larger than those two scans, yet I can get you several scans of when Kurama looks like a midget with Madara on his head. And just to give some perspective of standard 50% Kurama sizes [
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][
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][
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][
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][
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][
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] and then some Madara ones [
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][
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]. Bunta as large as 100% Kurama.
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.
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See, anomalies are not relevant; implicative comparabilities are (Mokuryu size, Gamabunta size, Kyuubi size as a kid to now, Kyuubi as large as the Juubi v2, why would he be 4x the size of the Juubi?..)