Sakura is a bad role model

Tennis Robot

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Actually I have no desire to be acknowledged. My main desire is to be logical and objective. With that being said I think the term "throwing words out" is a bit of a stretch. I consider what I say carefully before I say it but I'm not in the business of polishing anyone's rose colored glasses or tiptoeing around their feelings. My courtesy and polite behavior is..well..out of courtesy. And as wonderful a person as I think people such as yourself are, being that way is not in my nature.

Why would you ever say or do anything if you had no desire to be acknowledged? Is it not logical to speak to other people in a way that would best help them understand what you have to say? I have no intention of avoiding anyone's feelings. I would rather try to understand them. And I'm not a wonderful person at all. In fact, I'm a pretty detestable person. That's why I have decided to be this way. So I can tell myself that maybe I'm not as bad as I have been told I am.
 
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Natsu Shazneel

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Why would you ever say or do anything if you had no desire to be acknowledged? Is it not logical to speak to other people in a way that would best help them understand what you have to say? I have no intention of avoiding anyone's feelings. I would rather try to understand them. And I'm not a wonderful person at all. In fact, I'm a pretty detestable person. That's why I have decided to be this way. So I can tell myself that maybe I'm not as bad as I have been told I am.

Lol Don't mean to intrude in your debate. But I am finding it hard to see where your really trying to get at? I think she made it perfectly clear in what she said about a female character. I did not see any personal insults there. If you call those personal insults. Then go read KingofAnon's posts.
 
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Djokovic

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Lol yeah, in fact if I recall correctly it was in one of the manga chapters when sakura and naruto first met sai. xD

Lets stop right here before we give them any ideas. I remember one guy asking me for my phonenumber in my other thread...
 

salsalover64

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Why would you ever say or do anything if you had no desire to be acknowledged? Is it not logical to speak to other people in a way that would best help them understand what you have to say? I have no intention of avoiding anyone's feelings. I would rather try to understand them. And I'm not a wonderful person at all. In fact, I'm a pretty detestable person. That's why I have decided to be this way. So I can tell myself that maybe I'm not as bad as I have been told I am.

Because I still have principles to abide by acknowledgement or no. One of those principles being authenticity. I don't see taking on this lovey dovey persona as the only method for conveying a message. For me it's about breaking my point down into a sequence to be followed. Well that's one thing we have in common people think both of us are "monsters" or "detestable" the only difference is the way we choose to respond. At this point in my life after years of trying to gain people's approval i say "screw it" may as well take it all the way.
 

Tennis Robot

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Because I still have principles to abide by acknowledgement or no. One of those principles being authenticity. I don't see taking on this lovey dovey persona as the only method for conveying a message. For me it's about breaking my point down into a sequence to be followed. Well that's one thing we have in common people think both of us are "monsters" or "detestable" the only difference is the way we choose to respond. At this point in my life after years of trying to gain people's approval i say "screw it" may as well take it all the way.

You have principles to abide by, but you're giving up on treating people a certain way? And what happens when being authentic also means being illogical or abandoning objectivity? Are you lying to yourself? And did you not base your principles on how you want to be perceived in the world?
 

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I don't consider anecdotal evidence, or over generalizations evidence. I don't care if you used "many", "most", or "majority" to me when you say many it suggests you're referring to well over 50% of the populous, with that being said I stand by my original point. You're over generalizing because you assume it's an average occurrence. Enduring bullies, less than ideal teachers..really all the things you've just named are not comparable to what an abused spouse experiences psychologically in situations of domestic violence which is exactly what I'm referring to. Sakura's behavior is dead on the behavior of someone who has experienced domestic violence, physical, or emotional abuse due to the characteristics I referred to in my previous post. Don't bring your emotional appeals, anecdotal evidence or generalizations into this debate because it just makes it look like you're incapable of being objective and logical.




Sure there are women out there who proclaim their love for some one who tried to kill them,..they're called emotional/physical/ domestic violence victims. If you truly believe a stable, confident, women who has it together psychologically would proclaim their love for someone who tried to kill them then maybe you need to evaluate your perspective on women and do some serious soul searching regarding the type of women you grew up around.




Of course they CAN I can Can is a tricky word and you use it so loosely that you defy your own logic. Can means that although the possibility of an outcome exists the possibility also exists that the occurrence could be an outlier in the top or bottom percentile as opposed to the average. The average human being experiences being bullied in some form or another and the average human being develops support systems or methods to overcome such occurrences which helps them become more psychologically balances and stable. Is it common for people to go through a period in life in which they experience insecurities?? Sure, is it common for people to become involved in abuse relationships because of said insecurities?? No. Sakura represents an outlier of a population. The bottom percentile who didn't get a lot of exposure to different support systems growing up or learn how to handle challenging situations with bullies. The mindset of the person who endures those types of difficulties is what determines the outcome. Not the situation in and of itself.

I personally think most women are like Sakura.
 

Rmstorm

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I don't consider anecdotal evidence, or over generalizations evidence. I don't care if you used "many", "most", or "majority" to me when you say many it suggests you're referring to well over 50% of the populous, with that being said I stand by my original point. You're over generalizing because you assume it's an average occurrence. Enduring bullies, less than ideal teachers..really all the things you've just named are not comparable to what an abused spouse experiences psychologically in situations of domestic violence which is exactly what I'm referring to. Sakura's behavior is dead on the behavior of someone who has experienced domestic violence, physical, or emotional abuse due to the characteristics I referred to in my previous post. Don't bring your emotional appeals, anecdotal evidence or generalizations into this debate because it just makes it look like you're incapable of being objective and logical.




Sure there are women out there who proclaim their love for some one who tried to kill them,..they're called emotional/physical/ domestic violence victims. If you truly believe a stable, confident, women who has it together psychologically would proclaim their love for someone who tried to kill them then maybe you need to evaluate your perspective on women and do some serious soul searching regarding the type of women you grew up around.




Of course they CAN I can Can is a tricky word and you use it so loosely that you defy your own logic. Can means that although the possibility of an outcome exists the possibility also exists that the occurrence could be an outlier in the top or bottom percentile as opposed to the average. The average human being experiences being bullied in some form or another and the average human being develops support systems or methods to overcome such occurrences which helps them become more psychologically balances and stable. Is it common for people to go through a period in life in which they experience insecurities?? Sure, is it common for people to become involved in abuse relationships because of said insecurities?? No. Sakura represents an outlier of a population. The bottom percentile who didn't get a lot of exposure to different support systems growing up or learn how to handle challenging situations with bullies. The mindset of the person who endures those types of difficulties is what determines the outcome. Not the situation in and of itself.

When I meet a women, I assume their like Sakura so I keep my distance away from them. I'm not gay, but I keep my distance from women. My parents don't trust them to.
 

salsalover64

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You have principles to abide by, but you're giving up on treating people a certain way? And what happens when being authentic also means being illogical or abandoning objectivity? Are you lying to yourself? And did you not base your principles on how you want to be perceived in the world?

Yup, because I believe respect is to be earned. That too is part of my principles. No one is exempt from debate or questioning. To me being objective is a bit higher on the principle and belief scale. So at that point I'd evaluate the situation carefully and consider the most effective method for resolving it. Actually I'm being quite honest with myself I took years to evaluate this. Sure I did..but if a person wants me to take their feelings into consideration then they have to demonstrate they take mine into consideration.
 

Zavage10

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If there is really somebody who would use a manga character as a role model, then they need drastic help anyway...
 

xxSAGExx

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Yes. However, this "act of kindness" is not meritable in the least.

Kakashi gave up on Sasuke when the time came for it. Sakura should have as well.

The only individual in this manga to have the right to not give up is Naruto because
a) Sasuke has the strongest bond with him. b) They can relate. c) They're near the same powerlevel. d) Sasuke is willing to listen/fight him but no one else.

Some people in real life wish to go on their own path and should be respected for that. Sasuke has that right just as much as anyone else does. He doesn't need "saving", Kishimoto is only having Naruto do this in order to reinforce common friendship themes in shounen for kids.

I don't think it was as simple as that, Kakashi didn't give up on Sasuke, remember he gave Sasuke a last chance to end his obsession with revenge. He also thought this was how Hiruzen must have felt for Orochimaru when he had to face Orochimaru so we do know Kakashi still have some feelings for Sasuke as his old student but Kakashi is over two times Sakura's age, he understands that Sasuke have been changed by hatred. His experiences given to him by being older helped him be able to hand the act of being capable of killing Sasuke.

Remember he already went through feeling responsible for Obito's and Rin's death (he didn't know Obito was alive at that time). Kakashi couldn't pull himself into really fighting Obito at first after the mask came off and Obito didn't kill Kakashi in the flashback or after he beat Kakashi and left him in Kamui dimension (when Edo Madara was fighting Naruto, Bee and Gai). Naruto's bond with Sasuke goes back to when they were kids and he saw Sasuke alone by the pond right? Well Sakura liked Saauje around that time so even though Sasuke didn't have that bond at that time for her, she had it for him like how Sasuke said he severed those bonds but Naruto and Sakura didn't in the beginning of Shippuden.

You COULD but you haven't instead you're deliberately choosing to generalize based on stereotypes you believe to be true. You can't seem to distinguish between facts, knowledge, and beliefs. You BELIEVE and have created a stereotype of over 50% of women based on your limited experiences instead of the facts of psychology and human development. As I've stated before I don't consider anecdotal evidence a real argument because there's no way for us to determine your level of honesty or what really happened despite your perspective. So that point is invalid.




If we're analyzing how realistic sakura is as a character and whether or not she represents the average girl then we have to analyze her behavior and the reasoning behind it, you can't just cherry pick what you see fit by not including her behavior towards sakura int he most recent manga. You don't seem to be able to distinguish healthy behavior and unhealthy behavior for women. Sasuke is not a "bad boy" by any means of the word. However, he is a sociopath and there's evidence to prove it. if you believe it's common for women to fall in love with sociopaths then you're mistaken. If you believe it's average for women to be as codependent, needy, insecure, emotionally and psychologically unstable then you're mistaken. You've cherry picked one aspect of sakuras character and called her a "realistic character" insecurity alone is not sufficient when coming to a definitive conclusion about how realistic or unrealistic her character is and drawing on your personal experiences instead of considering outside evidence is short sighted and narrow minded.




And you're not listening to my point so let me try writing it in a way you can understand. *ahem* ALL WOMEN IN ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIPS CONTINUE TO RUN BACK TO THEIR ABUSERS IN THE BELIEF THAT THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR SAVING OR SUPPORTING THEM IN SOME WAY BECAUSE THEY FEEL A SENSE OF GUILT AND RESPONSIBILITY. Not just older married women. Really....it could be argued that even women in manipulative relationships experience the same thing. I don't see anything coming out of this argument because all you're really doing is limiting your perspective to personal experiences. If you want to have a skewed messed up close minded view of women then who am I to stop you?? Enjoy your day.

Well as Itachi told Sasuke, "....people live their lives bound by what they accept as correct and true. That's how they define "reality." But what does it mean to be "correct" or "true?" Merely vague concepts...their "reality" may be a mirage. Can we consider them to simply be living in their own world, shaped by their beliefs?" Sasuke:" what are you getting at? Itachi: "Like the way you simply decided that Madara must be dead. Like the way you believed I was a kind, caring brother."

Itachi words relate to you and to me as neither one of us know outside what we actually know. I didn't base my post on my perspective, I also used what I've heard from friends, both guys and girls. Why i said majority is because that's what I've most see or hear about, this is where Itachi's words comes in. No one can't base it off of only their own perspective, others can see or understand things you don't and you can gain information of a large group by such limited scopes. This is why I used what I've heard from others as well to see just how well my own results vary.

Businesses uses surveys to get a better understanding of what type of customers they should focus on. They can base it off of ***, gender, race, and age group depending on what type of business and/or merchandised they might sell. This is basically how you can gain an ideal of what the majority of the type of customers would want by using small groups of the type you choose to do the test for; you do it to different groups to see if the results are the same. Is that not similar to hearing or witnessing about girls going for bad boys from both guys and girls and a good amount of both types? For both Guys and girls, they can be talking about girls they were trying to get to know/date, girls they're friends with or what they were told by good friends of theirs. So from my "reality" as Itachi put it, it's basibg my use of "mostly" from what I've seen or heard about.

So you're saying a 6-7 year old Sasuke up to a 12-13 year old Sasuke does not fit under bad boy but does under sociopath? Idk what manga you've been reading but he wasn't a sociopath until MS Sasuke at 16 where he was talking crazy talk. Part 1 Sasuke was the loner who thought others were annoying, losers, idiots and he did his own thing for the most part.
 

SusanooKyuubi

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If there is really somebody who would use a manga character as a role model, then they need drastic help anyway...

Having an anime/manga character as a role model honestly wouldn't be that different from using a film or comic character as a role model, it's just that there exists a limit on what you can take from them. Hell, there are some philosophies I agree with that certain fictional characters have.....but it stops there for me. There's a point were it gets obsessive.
 

Tennis Robot

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Yup, because I believe respect is to be earned. That too is part of my principles. No one is exempt from debate or questioning. To me being objective is a bit higher on the principle and belief scale. So at that point I'd evaluate the situation carefully and consider the most effective method for resolving it. Actually I'm being quite honest with myself I took years to evaluate this. Sure I did..but if a person wants me to take their feelings into consideration then they have to demonstrate they take mine into consideration.

You're telling me that it is more effective to not be nice to everyone? Effective for what? There are so many negative things that could be completely avoided if people would at least try to not think about themselves all the time. I don't expect to get far here though, and I'm not going to try and unravel everything in this thread. I can only hope that you think about everything I have said, and try to figure things out. If you really have had a painful life it should come to you pretty easily.
 
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salsalover64

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You're telling me that it is more effective to not be nice to everyone? Effective for what? There are so many negative things that could be completely avoided if people would at least try to not think about themselves all the time. I don't expect to get far here though, and I'm not going to try and unravel everything in this thread. I can only hope that you think about everything I have said, and try to figure things out. If you really have had a painful life it should come to you pretty easily.

As far as I'm concerned I don't like the dichotomy between "nice" and "mean". There's a grey area in which polite behavior is extended depending on the situation.
 

Tennis Robot

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As far as I'm concerned I don't like the dichotomy between "nice" and "mean". There's a grey area in which polite behavior is extended depending on the situation.

If you want to live in an ideal world, why not behave in an ideal manner? Unless you would rather live in a world with violence, war, anger, rape, etc.
 

salsalover64

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If you want to live in an ideal world, why not behave in an ideal manner? Unless you would rather live in a world with violence, war, anger, rape, etc.

If only it were truly that simple. I do behave in an ideal manner based on my values,principles, and beliefs. The only reason you don't find it up to snuff is because you value compassion...which is fine...I think it's great..but I don't show it unless I'm shown it first.
 

Tennis Robot

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If only it were truly that simple. I do behave in an ideal manner based on my values,principles, and beliefs. The only reason you don't find it up to snuff is because you value compassion...which is fine...I think it's great..but I don't show it unless I'm shown it first.

That isn't ideal then. You are choosing to perpetuate the same things that caused your pain. If you really have been hurt, would you wish that kind of feeling on anyone else? Especially when you know how easily it could have been avoided. It is those without compassion who need it the most. In fact, it's for the very same reason you just gave me.
 

salsalover64

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That isn't ideal then. You are choosing to perpetuate the same things that caused your pain. If you really have been hurt, would you wish that kind of feeling on anyone else? Especially when you know how easily it could have been avoided. It is those without compassion who need it the most. In fact, it's for the very same reason you just gave me.

Actually by perpetuating a sense of objectivity, logic and authenticity I'm attempting to abide by my principles despite how I've been hurt. A lot of the people who hurt by did so in a deliberate attempt to sabotage and belittle me which isn't what i was attempting to do to sage. I just don't like anecdotal evidence. I can't stand it.
 

Tennis Robot

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Actually by perpetuating a sense of objectivity, logic and authenticity I'm attempting to abide by my principles despite how I've been hurt. A lot of the people who hurt by did so in a deliberate attempt to sabotage and belittle me which isn't what i was attempting to do to sage. I just don't like anecdotal evidence. I can't stand it.

You aren't being 100% logical though. And the fact that you have principles at all means that you can not ever be objective. You feel entitled to a certain type of treatment. Why is that? And don't you think that a lot of people are probably the same? If you all feel too entitled to ever tolerate each other, how will you make the world any better? It's selfish. And hypocritical. And illogical.
 

salsalover64

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You aren't being 100% logical though. And the fact that you have principles at all means that you can not ever be objective. You feel entitled to a certain type of treatment. Why is that? And don't you think that a lot of people are probably the same? If you all feel too entitled to ever tolerate each other, how will you make the world any better? It's selfish. And hypocritical. And illogical.

No one can every be 100% logical, the purpose is to be as logical as you can based on the situation at hand. Being objective means evaluating both sides and being able to put your principles and beliefs about the topic in perspective and recognize them as principles and beliefs without letting them over cloud your judgment. I never said I wanted to make the world any better and I never claimed to want to be a saint.
 
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