Edo Hiruzen vs Hashirama

[KidGamer65]

Kidgamer has given up on enlightening us that Hashi negs Hiruzen lol. GJ team. @Apex @Varia x boss


Although i'm still waiting to see how Mokuton > Diamond (Enma's body).

Something that should've been mentioned was how sword of Kusunagi could not scratch Enma, even if he did say it would hurt to get hit by it.

It took sasuke lightning + Kusunagi to break Mokuton.

I said I'm done arguing Mokuton vs Enma, Hashirama still shits on Hiruzen.

And I'm still waiting to see how Enma's durability translates to it smashing anything that isn't as durable as it is.

Cause Hashirama is definitely Yamato.

 

[AizenSosuke]

Hiruzen wins. Hes too haxx.

 

[VongolaX]

Thats not the god tree... That is spiral zetsu.. a weak version of Hashirama.

After he saved naruto, he used Enma to chop off a branch that was part of the god tree.

Hiruzen didn't even bother to use Enma on base Buddah

And hype... yea Hashirama also has bigger hype.. rofl.

Well no, Hiruzen's hype was said to be stronger than the five hokage's so no...

Also, the buddha did destroy the susannoo completely.. reread the chapter.. Madara himself states it..

He said it broke through Susanoo, but never mention "completely."

Half of a Susanoo was still on the kyuubi so no, you're wrong again.

 

[Joki Boi]

Smh......this wank is ridiculous. Since when was the staff pushing something a way to determine if it could smash something if it was struck against said object? Makes no sense.

The Kyuubi would've had to have been struck by the Kyuubi, then as a result of the force moved backwards. Otherwise the Kyuubi would've just squashed Hiruzen. Pretty impressive feat but I don't see it affecting things that shrug off Bijuu Dama.

 

[MickNerks]

Im so upset I was late to this party.smh

Well in any case Edo Hiruzen wins.

Enma has already proven to be a very effecting counter to mokuton, and there is no way Mokuton is reaching hiruzen while he is protected by Diamond Prison.

Flowering Tree World is easily eliminated by:

1. Hiruzen destroying flowers with Katon and Futon combo, or just Katon.
2. Hiruzen using Futon to blow pollen away.

Bringer of Darkness only is taking effect if Hashirama get close enough to Hiruzen. And Hiruzen can easily dispel it by using enma as a partner to disrupt his chakra. Its a misconception that it cant be dispelled, as the databook clearly states its a genjutsu that effects the victims sight, and

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. Emna was not with hiruzen when he was trapped in it against orochimaru.


Enma could easily smash wood dragon and pumble the wood golem, as enma can alter his shape and size and can control himself in staff form without the use of Hiruzen. He could achieve proper thickness and size which would be big enough to smash the golem to pieces.


Hashirama on the other hand has no counter for enma, enma clones, and elemental barrage.

 

[Demonic.]

So the only person that agrees with the OP is Mickinerks....a known biased Hiruzen fan Lol smh

 

[Benjamin King]

The old fart has votes? Interesting. Hashirama low difficulty.​

 

[MickNerks]

So the only person that agrees with the OP is Mickinerks....a known biased Hiruzen fan Lol smh

How am I biased?lmao

What makes me biased about a fictional manga character? He isnt related to me in any way.

Maybe you meant a supporter of Hiruzen. Much like you are a supporter of Hashirama. And if you read the entire thread you would know im not the only one who agrees with EB.

 

[Demonic.]

How am I biased?lmao

What makes me biased about a fictional manga character? He isnt related to me in any way.

Maybe you meant a supporter of Hiruzen. Much like you are a supporter of Hashirama. And if you read the entire thread you would know im not the only one who agrees with EB.

I've heard from others that you are and I'm barely seeing it now Lol the other people are trolling bro

 

[Ababeel]

^
funny how you mention that, why you do the same for Hashirama. Lol

 

[MickNerks]

I've heard from others that you are and I'm barely seeing it now Lol the other people are trolling bro

Hmmm, I would expect people to believe im a fapboy of hiruzen, but im not. I defend him because other's think he is garbage, much like femme is percieved as a sakura fapgirl because she defends a character that ohter's think is garbage (I personally believe sakura is underrated).

 

[Demonic.]

^
funny how you mention that, why you do the same for Hashirama. Lol

Not really Lol you're the one that says Base Minato can blitz Hashirama. I tell you no way in hell is Minato ever besting Hashirama. That doesn't make me biased, your claim is just preposterous.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Hashirama still shits on Hiruzen.

Lets not underestimate Hiruzen mobility here. Your claiming that Mokuton on top of Mokuton will be able to overwhelm him, when this guy was able to leave the village to where kushina and minato were in a very short time[

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] to [

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]. Jumping on top of Juubi head deity (reaching Sage Art construction) gate at the same time as Hashirama and Tobirama[

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]. And also getting out of Gojo explosion range, which is even bigger then Deity Gates. I see no problem here, as Mokuton will just become a new platform to fight. Worst case scenario, Mokuton attempting to crush him will be blocked by a diamond cage. Or forming Doton mud wall underneath him, elevating him more upwards.

Hiruzen versatility with his elements gives Hashirama's Mokuton a new challenge, as none of these component are able too to catch or suppress its ability, which is what Mokuton is base on ninjutsu wise. A combination of Fire+Wind pressure was stated adds the katon will extra explosive priority (somewhere kakuzu databook)[

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]. Hiurzen (with a clone) dealing more damage to Mokuton[

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]. You might think that just layering Mokuton over another would protect him but lets not forget was a katon that creates an entity of a dragon, to which he can manipulate and control[

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]. Adding wind to it will give the dragon entity to blow right through any construction, while also being guided. Just imagine a homing missile, maneuvering most Mokuton while keeping focus on the main target, less Mokuton are will be able to block that. A direct hit would KO Hashirama or put him in a state that he needs to recover badly. Not only that but if Hiruzen summons a Fuma Shiruken, throwing these things will end up being unpredictable as Hiruzen and choose when or not to clone them. Lets keep in mind that big heavy shirukens were able to plow through Buijuu flesh and still continue its momentum[

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]. One can argue that Obito's was bigger but only by 2 inches, which wouldn't make much difference. Even if still think Mokuton should be able to tank the fuma shiruken, lets not forget Hiruzen element mastery. Using nature manipulation such as Raiton, to channel against the shiurken would further increase its penetrating attack power. Mokuton will not be able to catch this and the fact that Hiruzen has the ability to clone them, having Hashirama attempting to counter countless giant blades infused with Raiton.

Close quarters, Hiruzen is very sneaky, If Hashirama attempts to try overpowering him in physical combat, will end up
1.)

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,

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2.) Enma can come out and follow up with an addition attack or trap you in a cage.

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Lets remember whos Shadow clones end up having the most durability in the series

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Any other shadow clones would go proof from a direct hit. Hiruzen clones will need to go down as if they were the orignal themselves. A clone battle, Hiruzen can win with quality. And the fact they each can infused Raiton, Katon, or Futon in their ninjutsu weapons. Each using shiruken clones? Hashirama gets showered with Elemental Shiurkens, going though anything he has to offer to protect him.

 

[Legendary Toad Sage]

Was about ready to lulz and say #wutHashiramapwnz2014 but EJ Black is changing my mind lol.

 

[KidGamer65]

Lets not underestimate Hiruzen mobility here. Your claiming that Mokuton on top of Mokuton will be able to overwhelm him, when this guy was able to leave the village to where kushina and minato were in a very short time[

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] to [

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]. Jumping on top of Juubi head deity (reaching Sage Art construction) gate at the same time as Hashirama and Tobirama[

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]. And also getting out of Gojo explosion range, which is even bigger then Deity Gates. I see no problem here, as Mokuton will just become a new platform to fight. Worst case scenario, Mokuton attempting to crush him will be blocked by a diamond cage. Or forming Doton mud wall underneath him, elevating him more upwards.

An unknown amount of time, off panel time, transpired between Hiruzen noticing the explosion and him arriving, so you don't know how fast he got there, so its not even a feat, especially when he'll be evading Mokuton that forms forests in a split second. Traveling to the outskirts of the village off panel isn't a feat.

Him reaching the God Gate the same time as Tobirama and Hashirama isn't a feat either since you don't know how close he was before getting there.

Tobirama warned him and Minato to escape, so that isn't a feat either as he knew what was going to happen before it happened.

All of this stuff is full of nothing but off panel feats to try and say Hiruzen has enough speed to evade Mokuton, except its not happening. None of the Gokage were able to escape the range of Flower Tree World without flying above the forest, includes Ay, who is a known speedster. Hiruzen isn't evading anything either, not when he is no speedster and doesn't even have enough speed feats to put him tiers above any of the Gokage when it comes to speed.

Forming a Doton wall underneath him is useless since Mokuton will tear through it and kill him.

Hiruzen versatility with his elements gives Hashirama's Mokuton a new challenge, as none of these component are able too to catch or suppress its ability, which is what Mokuton is base on ninjutsu wise. A combination of Fire+Wind pressure was stated adds the katon will extra explosive priority (somewhere kakuzu databook)[

You must be registered for see links

]. Hiurzen (with a clone) dealing more damage to Mokuton[

You must be registered for see links

]. You might think that just layering Mokuton over another would protect him but lets not forget was a katon that creates an entity of a dragon, to which he can manipulate and control[

You must be registered for see links

]. Adding wind to it will give the dragon entity to blow right through any construction, while also being guided. Just imagine a homing missile, maneuvering most Mokuton while keeping focus on the main target, less Mokuton are will be able to block that. A direct hit would KO Hashirama or put him in a state that he needs to recover badly. Not only that but if Hiruzen summons a Fuma Shiruken, throwing these things will end up being unpredictable as Hiruzen and choose when or not to clone them. Lets keep in mind that big heavy shirukens were able to plow through Buijuu flesh and still continue its momentum[

You must be registered for see links

]. One can argue that Obito's was bigger but only by 2 inches, which wouldn't make much difference. Even if still think Mokuton should be able to tank the fuma shiruken, lets not forget Hiruzen element mastery. Using nature manipulation such as Raiton, to channel against the shiurken would further increase its penetrating attack power. Mokuton will not be able to catch this and the fact that Hiruzen has the ability to clone them, having Hashirama attempting to counter countless giant blades infused with Raiton.

Hiruzen's versatility is nice and all, but I'm seeing nothing here that allows you to say that his elemental jutsu are going to plow through any of his Mokuton constructs. Nothing at all.

-Madara's Katon>>>Hiruzen's Katon, and not only did it not hit all of the Flower World due to insufficient range, it only caught the branch on fire, no real damage was done. Same thing happens to Hiruzen's Katon, except his affects a smaller area due to inferior reach.

-Don't know what you are talking about when you say that he can manipulate his Katon after its been fired, as the scan shows nothing of the sort. His Katon only did that because that is how its reach works. Nothing supports this baseless assumption of it being a homing attack. Nothing at all.

His elemental Ninjutsu get tanked.

Lol...Obito's Shuriken were propelled at high speeds by his Kamui, Hiruzen doesn't throw as fast as Obito can eject stuff from his dimension, so comparing the two doesn't work, not to mention ripping through Killer B's tentacles doesn't mean much since they aren't durable. Sasuke cut them, Minato with a mere Kunai cut smaller scaled versions of them. Infusing them with Ninjutsu isn't going to help either, as you still have nothing to show that they'll rip through branches

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thick.

Its funny, you complain about people wanking Mokuton's durability, when we have you over here saying that shit like Fuma Shuriken are going to cut right through them. Didn't Iruka take a Fuma Shuriken to his back? Lmfao.

Close quarters, Hiruzen is very sneaky, If Hashirama attempts to try overpowering him in physical combat, will end up
1.)

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,

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2.) Enma can come out and follow up with an addition attack or trap you in a cage.

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Lol, Hashirama equals Madara in close combat, a guy who has top notch reactions and speed. Far superior to the likes of Hiruzen. Him tagging an Edo Hashirama being controlled by Oro, who knew that they could regenerate, with a mere explosive tag, doesn't translate to him slipping an explosive tag onto Hashirama during CQC, not gonna happen.

Hashirama can counter Enma's hand by

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Lets remember whos Shadow clones end up having the most durability in the series

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Any other shadow clones would go proof from a direct hit. Hiruzen clones will need to go down as if they were the orignal themselves. A clone battle, Hiruzen can win with quality. And the fact they each can infused Raiton, Katon, or Futon in their ninjutsu weapons. Each using shiruken clones? Hashirama gets showered with Elemental Shiurkens, going though anything he has to offer to protect him.

@bold: No, they won't. Them not poofing from that doesn't mean that they can take as much as the original and still stand. Irrelevant since Hashirama's Mokuton clones also don't poof on contact, and its been shown that they do need to go down like the original in order to be defeated.


If your argument is "Elemental Shuriken" then I know for sure that Hiruzen stands no chance.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

An unknown amount of time, off panel time, transpired between Hiruzen noticing the explosion and him arriving, so you don't know how fast he got there, so its not even a feat, especially when he'll be evading Mokuton that forms forests in a split second. Traveling to the outskirts of the village off panel isn't a feat.

Him reaching the God Gate the same time as Tobirama and Hashirama isn't a feat either since you don't know how close he was before getting there.

Tobirama warned him and Minato to escape, so that isn't a feat either as he knew what was going to happen before it happened.

All of this stuff is full of nothing but off panel feats to try and say Hiruzen has enough speed to evade Mokuton, except its not happening. None of the Gokage were able to escape the range of Flower Tree World without flying above the forest, includes Ay, who is a known speedster. Hiruzen isn't evading anything either, not when he is no speedster and doesn't even have enough speed feats to put him tiers above any of the Gokage when it comes to speed.

Forming a Doton wall underneath him is useless since Mokuton will tear through it and kill him.

-Ok

- This isn't a speed argument. We know the distance he was in, since he was one of the four people holding the barrier[

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>

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>

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]

- How is this not valid? Is your claim stating that he isn't going to know when Hashirama is going to use Mokuton?

-Try looking my arguments in another point of view instead of speed. You dont have to be fast like Ay to react to it, when you have excellent perception and knowledge of his technique. Not to mention Ay's ignorance was able to use Mokuton as a platform to get out of its reach, without raiton cloak[

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]

-Its not useless as it was specifically built for more ledge, Mokuton isn't going to crush him[

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]

Hiruzen's versatility is nice and all, but I'm seeing nothing here that allows you to say that his elemental jutsu are going to plow through any of his Mokuton constructs. Nothing at all.

-Madara's Katon>>>Hiruzen's Katon, and not only did it not hit all of the Flower World due to insufficient range, it only caught the branch on fire, no real damage was done. Same thing happens to Hiruzen's Katon, except his affects a smaller area due to inferior reach.

-Don't know what you are talking about when you say that he can manipulate his Katon after its been fired, as the scan shows nothing of the sort. His Katon only did that because that is how its reach works. Nothing supports this baseless assumption of it being a homing attack. Nothing at all.

His elemental Ninjutsu get tanked.

Lol...Obito's Shuriken were propelled at high speeds by his Kamui, Hiruzen doesn't throw as fast as Obito can eject stuff from his dimension, so comparing the two doesn't work, not to mention ripping through Killer B's tentacles doesn't mean much since they aren't durable. Sasuke cut them, Minato with a mere Kunai cut smaller scaled versions of them. Infusing them with Ninjutsu isn't going to help either, as you still have nothing to show that they'll rip through branches

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thick.

Its funny, you complain about people wanking Mokuton's durability, when we have you over here saying that shit like Fuma Shuriken are going to cut right through them. Didn't Iruka take a Fuma Shuriken to his back? Lmfao.

-Other then the long discussion we are stuck in a disagreement, to what Hashirama Mokuton durability feats should be base on. I doubt its going to go anywhere. Using another point of view, Hashirama acknowledged that Mokuton wasn't going stop a SusanooTBB, as it won't produce enough strength to stop it. He base his solution to use Iron gates to change its trajectory. Lets look carefully at the damage Susanoo blade produce with the iron gates[

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]. The susanoo blade was only able to use chip damage on the first gate, that takes the attack head-on. Basically Mokuton isn't near as hard as iron. But now it comes down to what type of damage you would reason each element would do to a single iron gate. Suiton, will the pressure knock it down or have the gate stand firm. Futon: Same thing as Suiton. Raiton, will it gore a hole in its defense? Then a mix combination of elements, etc.

- I dont know why you think my argument is to destroy all mokuton in the first place. Simply targeting the parts that are factoring the match will suffice, like the flower Hashirama produces. But my whole point was targeting Hashirama himself.

- I was going by databook description

The kneaded chakra flames are manipulated into a genuine-looking, fulminating dragon!! Since the art of having the flames obey the caster's will is outrageously difficult, its mastery is restricted to a limited number of skillful shinobi! The spat out flames are divided to launch a left side, right side, and frontal assault in all three directons at once, turning the enemy into ash in a matter of seconds.

The flames obey the casters will, hiruzen can decide where to launch it and in whatever side.

- @Bold is base on what? Hiruzen throw a shiruken bigger then him at Juubito reaching more then 200 yards. 2nd Bold, base on what again?

-Iruka didn't tank Hiruzen's, which is bigger then what that first badguy did. So point moot, unless your applying to any fuma shiruken can be tanked by iruka.

Lol, Hashirama equals Madara in close combat, a guy who has top notch reactions and speed. Far superior to the likes of Hiruzen. Him tagging an Edo Hashirama being controlled by Oro, who knew that they could regenerate, with a mere explosive tag, doesn't translate to him slipping an explosive tag onto Hashirama during CQC, not gonna happen.

Hashirama can counter Enma's hand by

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That isn't a reasoning that Hashirama awareness is going to change. Hiruzen has better defense to parry off in CQC with element infused with his weapons, plus we witness Juubito blitzing Tobirama end up getting tagged for moving to fast to see his counter.

Then physical contact will have Enma trap him in a cage.

@bold: No, they won't. Them not poofing from that doesn't mean that they can take as much as the original and still stand. Irrelevant since Hashirama's Mokuton clones also don't poof on contact, and its been shown that they do need to go down like the original in order to be defeated.


If your argument is "Elemental Shuriken" then I know for sure that Hiruzen stands no chance.

Ok but they can take more then 4 lethal damage, which is still good quality to face him off with. Hiruzen and clones have more lethal attacks therefore getting hit by his elements, him and his clones aren't going to survive against.

 

[madvictory]

It's a tie. Hashirama can't kill him, but Hiruzen can't do such thing either.

 

[Selan]

I don't really know how this can be debated. How does exactly Hiruzen avoid to be squashed by giant and fast Mokuton forest that can put him to sleep, Mokuton dragons that wrestle with Kurama or BM Kurama, giant Mokuton constructs that stop 100% Kyuubi's Bijuu Dama, armies of Mokuton Bunshins and the Kokuangyo no genjutsu that already ****ed him when used by a far far far weakened Hashirama? With a couple of elemental ninjutsu, or Enma? Please.

 

[KidGamer65]

-Ok

- This isn't a speed argument. We know the distance he was in, since he was one of the four people holding the barrier[

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>

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>

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]

Ok then.

- How is this not valid? Is your claim stating that he isn't going to know when Hashirama is going to use Mokuton?

Because, he acted a good moment before Tobirama started to use his jutsu. There won't be a good moment for him to run away when Hashirama uses Mokuton. He claps his hand and then a forest is formed. Hiruzen escaping the blast radius of Gojo means nothing when he didn't dodge it because he was fast enough, he dodged it because he was warned.

-Try looking my arguments in another point of view instead of speed. You dont have to be fast like Ay to react to it, when you have excellent perception and knowledge of his technique. Not to mention Ay's ignorance was able to use Mokuton as a platform to get out of its reach, without raiton cloak[

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]

React? Of course not. Evade? Yes. Hiruzen isn't as fast as Ay, yet Ay needed to lifted above the forest to escape its range, which makes Madara's Susanoo look like

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. Not even gonna talk about how small Madara is in comparison to the full forest.

And look how that turned out for Ay, he still had to be lifted above and the forest hadn't even completely formed. Onoki was lightning him too, so he was faster than normal and could fly. So there is no excuse for him having to get above it, with flight.

Hiruzen isn't evading it.

-Its not useless as it was specifically built for more ledge, Mokuton isn't going to crush him[

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]

If he uses the Doton Strategy instead of using Enma, then his Doton Ledge gets smashed to bits, he falls into the growing Mokuton and gets crushed to death. If he uses Enma, he doesn't get crushed, but the Flower World's pollen knocks him out cold.


-

Other then the long discussion we are stuck in a disagreement, to what Hashirama Mokuton durability feats should be base on. I doubt its going to go anywhere. Using another point of view, Hashirama acknowledged that Mokuton wasn't going stop a SusanooTBB, as it won't produce enough strength to stop it. He base his solution to use Iron gates to change its trajectory. Lets look carefully at the damage Susanoo blade produce with the iron gates[

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]. The susanoo blade was only able to use chip damage on the first gate, that takes the attack head-on. Basically Mokuton isn't near as hard as iron. But now it comes down to what type of damage you would reason each element would do to a single iron gate. Suiton, will the pressure knock it down or have the gate stand firm. Futon: Same thing as Suiton. Raiton, will it gore a hole in its defense? Then a mix combination of elements, etc.

He acknowledged that he couldn't catch the Bijuu Dama, but sure, ok. I don't know where you got the bolded from, but the Bijuu Dama Blade tore through all 5 Gates.

Susanoo Blades>>>>Elemental Attacks. So whatever the Blades did, the Elemental Jutsu will do much less. Nothing even implies they are getting past one Gate let alone all 5. Nothing implies it destroys Mokuton either.

- I dont know why you think my argument is to destroy all mokuton in the first place. Simply targeting the parts that are factoring the match will suffice, like the flower Hashirama produces. But my whole point was targeting Hashirama himself.

Whether or not your argument is to destroy all of it or parts of it doesn't change the content of my reply, and targeting Hashirama only leads to him blocking it with Mokuton.

- I was going by databook description


The flames obey the casters will, hiruzen can decide where to launch it and in whatever side.

You clearly misunderstood that DB entry. Obey the caster's will doesn't mean that it can be remotely controlled by the caster, especially when it states that it moves in 3 specific directions at once.

- @Bold is base on what? Hiruzen throw a shiruken bigger then him at Juubito reaching more then 200 yards. 2nd Bold, base on what again?

Obito uses Kamui to propel instead of simply throwing them, meaning the speed with his Kamui is better. Obito is physically stronger than Hiruzen. If Obito's physical strength isn't the first option, then Hiruzen's isn't comparing to the speeds Kamui tosses them out at.

Throwing a Shuriken over a distance of 200 yards isn't a special feat.

-Iruka didn't tank Hiruzen's, which is bigger then what that first badguy did. So point moot, unless your applying to any fuma shiruken can be tanked by iruka.

Ok, point.

That isn't a reasoning that Hashirama awareness is going to change. Hiruzen has better defense to parry off in CQC with element infused with his weapons, plus we witness Juubito blitzing Tobirama end up getting tagged for moving to fast to see his counter.

Not even awareness we are talking about here. Speed and most importantly, reactions, are the major factors here. Not awareness. The faster you are and the better reactions you have, the easier it'll be to react to things like what Hiruzen did.

And yes, it will change their awareness. If they are controlling their own bodies, then they will be more aware than when Orochimaru is controlling their bodies for them. Not to mention Oro had no reason to make them evade or counter, not when Edo Tensei regenerate.

Juubito got tagged Mid Shunshin, where he can't counter even if he wanted to. We are talking about a CQC encounter between Hiruzen and Hashirama. If Tobirama entered CQC with Juubito, he'd get killed many times over before he ever tagged Juubito.

What Enma? He isn't going to be using Shuriken and Enma in close combat, not when he needs two hands to wield Enma.

Then physical contact will have Enma trap him in a cage.

Then Hashirama slaughters Hiruzen since he doesn't need to be touching or be near any Mokuton that he forms and controls. No Enma=No counter to Mokuton.

Ok but they can take more then 4 lethal damage, which is still good quality to face him off with. Hiruzen and clones have more lethal attacks therefore getting hit by his elements, him and his clones aren't going to survive against.

They can take 4 punches and live, not 4 lethal attacks in general. The stronger the attack, the less damage it'll take to kill them. Blunt force trauma from Mokuton>>>4 punches from weakened Edo Zombies.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Because, he acted a good moment before Tobirama started to use his jutsu. There won't be a good moment for him to run away when Hashirama uses Mokuton. He claps his hand and then a forest is formed. Hiruzen escaping the blast radius of Gojo means nothing when he didn't dodge it because he was fast enough, he dodged it because he was warned.

Gojo denotation comes out faster then Hashirama creating a forest. So even if it doesn't prove he would be fast enough to leave Gojo, he is still aware of Hashirama creating a forest very fast. He already has the jump height to get caught in a bad situation.

What happen to my case of going up on Deity Gates?

React? Of course not. Evade? Yes. Hiruzen isn't as fast as Ay, yet Ay needed to lifted above the forest to escape its range, which makes Madara's Susanoo look like

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. Not even gonna talk about how small Madara is in comparison to the full forest.

Doesn't matter since I already proved Hiruzen jumping height ability. Its nearly on par with V3 Susanoo mobility.

And look how that turned out for Ay, he still had to be lifted above and the forest hadn't even completely formed. Onoki was lightning him too, so he was faster than normal and could fly. So there is no excuse for him having to get above it, with flight.

No matter what, you have no idea Ay speed without Raiton armor, lighten or not. And my case of Hiruzen jumping feats still says otherwise.

If he uses the Doton Strategy instead of using Enma, then his Doton Ledge gets smashed to bits, he falls into the growing Mokuton and gets crushed to death. If he uses Enma, he doesn't get crushed, but the Flower World's pollen knocks him out cold.

Not if he jumps before the Wood crushes it

He acknowledged that he couldn't catch the Bijuu Dama, but sure, ok. I don't know where you got the bolded from, but the Bijuu Dama Blade tore through all 5 Gates.

Susanoo Blades>>>>Elemental Attacks. So whatever the Blades did, the Elemental Jutsu will do much less. Nothing even implies they are getting past one Gate let alone all 5. Nothing implies it destroys Mokuton either.

If Hashirama thought Iron was the best choice then wood, means that Wood Release durability is no where near as hard as Iron. Just taking a single Rashomon into consideration, what damage do you think Hiruzens elements would do. Even if you dont believe it would damage a single Rashomon, what about knocking it down. Knocking it down could also reason of its pressures going through Wood.

Whether or not your argument is to destroy all of it or parts of it doesn't change the content of my reply, and targeting Hashirama only leads to him blocking it with Mokuton.

Which leads to how you think Katon+Futon or Raiton or Suiton+Futon isnt going barrage through.

You clearly misunderstood that DB entry. Obey the caster's will doesn't mean that it can be remotely controlled by the caster, especially when it states that it moves in 3 specific directions at once.

@Bold My interpret is more plausible then yours since your statement is self contradictory. "Obey the caster will doesn't obey the caster will."

Its been a while that we have seen how a databook looks like.

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The databook first gives the description of the jutsu then later points an arrow to show how it was used in the manga. (Im useing this one since I can't find Hiruzen DB, all DB does this anyway)

Just because Hiruzen specifically used it that way in that scnerio doesn't make the first description invalid.

Obito uses Kamui to propel instead of simply throwing them, meaning the speed with his Kamui is better. Obito is physically stronger than Hiruzen. If Obito's physical strength isn't the first option, then Hiruzen's isn't comparing to the speeds Kamui tosses them out at.

Throwing a Shuriken over a distance of 200 yards isn't a special feat.

How you know Kamui propel moves faster then Obito throwing it? That isn't good reasoning to state Hiruzen throwing power wouldn't be as effective to what Obito did, especially when Kakashi canonically block its propelling motion with Doton. Especially when the Shiuken is getting an elemental power up.

Not even awareness we are talking about here. Speed and most importantly, reactions, are the major factors here. Not awareness. The faster you are and the better reactions you have, the easier it'll be to react to things like what Hiruzen did.

Then should we conclude that KCM naruto reaction is better then SM naruto, base on this reasoning?

And yes, it will change their awareness. If they are controlling their own bodies, then they will be more aware than when Orochimaru is controlling their bodies for them. Not to mention Oro had no reason to make them evade or counter, not when Edo Tensei regenerate.

@Bold, are you making that claim that he knew anyway?

Juubito got tagged Mid Shunshin, where he can't counter even if he wanted to. We are talking about a CQC encounter between Hiruzen and Hashirama. If Tobirama entered CQC with Juubito, he'd get killed many times over before he ever tagged Juubito.

That wasn't the point..

What Enma? He isn't going to be using Shuriken and Enma in close combat, not when he needs two hands to wield Enma.

This part of the argument was with Clones. Each Clone can use a Fuma Shiruken as a melee base weapon too, infuse with element chakra such as wind or lightening.

Then Hashirama slaughters Hiruzen since he doesn't need to be touching or be near any Mokuton that he forms and controls. No Enma=No counter to Mokuton.

Fuma Shirukens is a 2nd weapon option. Infuse it with element can also chop off any Mokuton around him.

They can take 4 punches and live, not 4 lethal attacks in general. The stronger the attack, the less damage it'll take to kill them. Blunt force trauma from Mokuton>>>4 punches from weakened Edo Zombies.

No a single kunai are able to have shadow clones go proof, which proves thats a lethal attack alone. a single Blunt force Mokuton isn't going to make clone go proof when we have seen characters like Mei being able to take a hit from a blunt force mokuton.