ultraChalk
Active member
Awards
Buggy is a... special case. Not of his crew, NONE of them have actually seen him fight. They have been persuaded through his godly luck and his talent through hype-speeches/lies.
[Discussion] Zoro>Sanji in character development
- Thread starter I'm stupid real stupid
- Start date
Tomato God
Active member
Punk Hazard
Active member
Awards
I'm sorry, I was under the impression you were going to actually back up your words, not say crap and back out. If you can't back up what you're saying, then why post here?
Jimmy page
Active member
Well i was just tired to repeat the same thing over and over again and wanted to send you the message because i wasn't understanding why you were keeping arguing over something already discussed a lot of times, but whatever this will be my final post on the matter. I'll never discuss about it with you again. Like i've already said, it's up to you to believe what you want
First of all, the captain(or vice-captain) isn't supposed to be competent in everything. For example, Luffy is even worse than Zoro in terms of cooking, navigation, ship reparation and so on, but he is the captain. So arguments about Zoro can't do this, Zoro can't do that, or Nami was giving orders in navigation, Sanji in cooking or whatever is ridiculous. Navigation is Nami's role in the crew. Cooking is Sanji's role in the crew. Franky has his own role and so on. Furthermore, because one is the captain doesn't mean he can't listen to his subordinates. There is a difference between listening and ordering.
Listening = to pay attention to someone or something in order to hear what is being said, sung, played. A captain can listen to what his subordinates says and it's up to him to decide to follow his indications or not
Ordering = A command given by a superior requiring obedience, as in the execution of a task
That is what you call leadership. The captain is nothing else than the authority on board and the vice-captain is the one taking charge of the group's structure when he falters, nothing more than that
Zoro outside of Luffy has demonstrated more leadership than anyone else in the crew.
The Usopp Mutiny: Perhaps Zoro's greatest display of leadership when he wouldn't let his captain embarrass himself by letting a guy who quit the crew over something stupid back in without so much as an apology to excuse his earlier actions. That's something Luffy, the captain, the leader of the crew, should have done himself, but didn't because he let his feelings overwhelm his obligations and duties as captain.
What Zoro did then was something a leader does. To debate that is beyond asinine. When Luffy failed to act as he was supposed to then, Zoro filled the leadership void that they needed, and didn't ask politely. He straight up told every single member of the Strawhat member crew they weren't going anywhere, and that he would not let them bring that kid back on their ship. If that's not an order, it's the closest and firmest one we've seen given aside from the captain. And the only person who could have overridden Zoro, didn't say a word.
"They respected Zoro's wishes as an equal on the crew," is an absurdly specious argument. That wasn't a wish. That was an order. He told everyone they weren't leaving the ship, that they would have to go through him, and that he wasn't letting Usopp back in without an apology, and nobody did a thing.
Urouge: The Supernova acknowledged Zoro as the first mate. He also said that "he doesn't seem to be the type of guy who takes orders..." Now some people dismiss this because he's an outsider and doesn't decide whose task is what in the crew and whatever. They shouldn't dismiss it though, because Urouge thinking of Zoro as first mate is indicative of the notion that the rest of the outside world who know of the Strawhat pirates think of him that way as well. Urouge can't be the only one harboring those ideas. And perception is worth a great deal in the OP world.
Fishman Island: Zoro took royal hostages and handled negotiations on the den-den mushi. Everyone yelled at Zoro for handling things too roughly. Their other option was losing and letting Neptune imprison them. Zoro made the tough call, and they may have voiced objections, but ultimately didn't do a damn thing to stop him. Zoro made the tough call that the others weren't willing to make, but it protected his friends and it made sense.
Punk Hazard: When Luffy lost to Caesar, the first one Usopp tried to give information about is Zoro. When Zoro got the information combined to the fact he and the rest also got subdued by the yeti cool brothers, for the crew's safety, for the crew's future, realising that the crew will go nowhere in the new world if they continue to be so careless, he took charge not only to responsibilize his captain but also the entire crew's structure
Dressrosa Bartolomeo is a fanboy of the crew. He followed their adventures since day one. And no the "Bartolomeo is a gag" or "he isn't leaving with the crew" is a faulty argument. Infact, Bartolomeo by being a fanboy of the crew is the exact person who should know the most about them especially when talking about something as superficial as the crew's structure. It's not like Luffy gave titles yet. It's how the world perceives Zoro in the crew(as the vice-captain), so Bartolomeo himself should know something like this(he even says it himself). He isn't the random judge. He knows Zoro doesn't have that title "yet", but it's what he believes he represents by observing the crew's structure.
Whenever Luffy isn't there, the strawhat crew becomes Zoro's group:
- Zoro's group:
You must be registered for see links
- Zoro's side:
You must be registered for see links
- Zoro's gang:
You must be registered for see links
- Zoro and the others:
You must be registered for see links
- Zoro illustrated for the strawhats group in the box:
You must be registered for see links
- Zoro's group:
You must be registered for see links
All that shows that whenever Luffy isn't near or when he falters, Zoro is the authority
Last edited:
Punk Hazard
Active member
Awards
There you go citing the very things I refuted above after saying that they weren't your points.
I've already shown how Barto and Urouge's testimony to Zoro being first mate isn't good enough, as the World Government, who has greater information than both Urouge and Barto regard Chopper as a simple pet and not a fighter or doctor. Where do you think Barto tracked information on the Straw hats from? The newspapers and bounties, issued by the WG who have been wrong towards the SHs before. Barto and Urouge aren't good enough.
Then you have Zoro giving orders most to the crew, that's not true. During storms and dangerous waters, Nami gives direct orders. Nami has given more orders than Zoro has, so if that is your reasoning for vice-captain, it's Nami, as she is the authority over the crew when it comes to navigation, a crucial role in sailing.
You say it's been referred to as Zoro's group before. Well, they're currently the Spiralhat pirates, and Oda has made illustrations before saying "Nami's group", "Robin's group", "Luffy's group" etc. Once again, you can't cite a reason for Zoro being vice captain when it can apply to other Straw hats as well.
You say Zoro handled negotiations over Den Den Mushi with an ally of that arc on Fishman Island. Sanji misled Crocodile over DDM, the main villain. Sanji opened the gates in Enies Lobby, found Robin through intuition in Water 7 which led to them knowing where to go to go after her, and took a detour to hinder and delay Enel by damaging the Arc Maxim, and distracting him, allowing Nami and Usopp to get away. Even better than negotiations that ended up falling through anyways.
Oh god, just stop playing dumb, stop missing the point, stop using stupid examples, but whatever dude. You think you're right. I think you're wrong. Let's just leave it at that because we're never going to change our opinions. Just know that for me he is the vice-captain, so whenever i say that in my future posts including this one, don't bother replying or starting useless conversations
Punk Hazard
Active member
Awards
Your ego just can't handle that there are viable counters to your adament belief, so you dismiss them as playing dumb and missing the point when they hit the nail on the head. When did egos become this fragile.
~Kami no Itachi~
Banned
Well beyond that You could say Zorro has An actual Goal and a Great Backstory He knows his target and his Goal and has met and lost to him.
Sanji on the other hand his Goal is much more Vague: Find all Blue
His vague goal gives us little refernce or attachment to what he wants but zorro's goal we can always refernce mihawk and see mihawk in the show..
Also Sanji forgets about his goal way too much to go chasing girls
Lastly in timeskip Arc Zorro learned that they were weak and he needed to get stronger so he bowed down to his greatest enemy
Sanji on the other hand just ran from Man-Dudes and had no real character development did not even mention his goals.. He just came back more horny. Zorro came back more focussed
Thread
xanonymosx
Banned
funny thing you are talking about uniqness not development
at first zoro told luffy " if you get in my way i will kill you " but later he gave his live to save luffy that is a development
zoro is guy with a huge pride he never begs any one yet he laid his head to the ground to be ables to protect his friends that is a character development
both character's suck in terms of character development.
zoro's the same lazy guy who does nothing important a whole arc and shows up for a fight.\
sanji is the same guy who can't hit woman or can't keep his cool around them.
in terms of character develoment frnaky>>>>sanji/zoro
he went from gang leader to strawhat ally to crewmember to a suuuuuuuuuper cybog.
zoro's the same lazy guy who does nothing important a whole arc and shows up for a fight.\
sanji is the same guy who can't hit woman or can't keep his cool around them.
in terms of character develoment frnaky>>>>sanji/zoro
he went from gang leader to strawhat ally to crewmember to a suuuuuuuuuper cybog.
Punk Hazard
Active member
Awards
That's role development, not character development. Each time he was in those roles, he was the same character.
Dr Strangelove
Active member
Awards
I agree that Sanji hasn't been developed extremely well over the time skip.
I can already tell without glancing at the thread that Love Cook will be at peoples throats in time.
I can already tell without glancing at the thread that Love Cook will be at peoples throats in time.
I would like you to tell me why Zoro is not VA.
Only reason you can tell me is that the crew has never called him as their VA. Even if he is not considered as VA. He has been portrayed to be the second in command of crew.
Yes, Nami has taken initiate like Zoro and Sanji decided to sacrifice his life just like Zoro So,what? Can you name a SH who did both?
Second strongest in crew.
Takes lead if needed.
Loyal to his captain and is better than other crew member in this regard.
Everyone considers him as VA.
First on to join the crew(I admit that it isn't valid point).
If you can name someone who can match these qualities then I'll admit that he's not VA. He may not be official VA of SH's but Zoro clearly holds that position.
Zoro puts pride over everything but later he learned that there are things that are more important than his pride in his life.
Last edited:
sanji-
third strongest and very close to zoro in strength.
at least 10x more intelligence then zoro.
1st person to join dosn't have to be vice captian
has been shown doing solo missions and leading strong groups.exp solo missions :saving crew in arabasta/opening gate of justice in enies loby.exp of traking lead:current vs bigmam squad/punk hazzard group that got caught and also lead G5.
was ready to give up his life for luffy just like zoro
most important things to be a vice cap is to be intelligent and being able to lead.
I have clearly said that I want someone that can full fill all the qualities of Zoro not few of them.
Nami can take the lead so what? Is Nami as strong as Zoro? No. Can she save other members ass? No
Same goes for other members as well.They can match single quality of Zoro not all of them so using them as an argument can't help you here.
Luffy - Cap
Sanji - Cook
Chopper - Doctor.
Nami -Navigator.
Robin : Archaeologist.
Usipp - Sniper
Brook - Musician
Franky- Shipwright.
Now tell me which status is empty in crew? Yes, the vice cap.
Tell me who's the dude without any status in crew? Yes,Zoro.
Zoro proved himself to be a better leader then Luffy. The man who happend to be their captain.
About Zoro being more loyal to Luffy. I'll post Bogards argument here as I don't have much time.
bogard said:
^^^^^ This alone is more than enough to say that Zoro is more loyal to Luffy than any other SH. See, no one besides Zoro cared about Luffy's pride. Not even Luffy himself which clearly shows that Zoro's loyalty towards Luffy is next to none.
Last edited:
saying some u want some one who has all the quality's of zoro to be vice cap means that ur just a big zoro fanboy. different people have different quality's .sanjis' quality's are much better the zoro's quality's for a vice captian .and u didn't even point out where zoro took the lead in any situation so i'm gonna tell in for.
zoro took the lead in usoop leaving the crew situation but the fact remains that sanji was the only one who supported it without complain.yeah that is the only part zoro took a lead of a situation but he often inspires the crew through words.still if zoro were to take the command of the crew when luffy's not there and when they are in a bad situation.the crew is fuc*ed.what's he gonna do badass them out of trouble.although zoro isn't stupid(just bad at directions)he isn't clever/ smart.the guy has no technical capabilities and isn't that knowledgeable either.sanji is strong,intelligent,has experience in leading and a technical genius.he has already saved the crews life a couple of times.