Sage Mode Naruto vs Ei

Brother Numpsay

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Sharingan has a superior reading movement than Sage mode.​


The best example of Sage Mode having better sync with their reaction senses was already broken down:

1. Susanoo arrow attack compare to Sharingan reaction: [ > ]
2. Susanoo arrow attack compare to SM senses/perceptual: [ ]

Its a clear difference here
EMS Sasuke was keeping up fine with Madara, while Naruto got outdone right the start of the chapter.

Except Naruto wasn't outdone as I shown later that he ran after Madara, which Madara escaped.

@Bold, [ ]. Blocking /=/ avoiding.

Brining out the obvious: How does that conclude that avoiding = reacting?

The whole point is Naruto could not avoid it with reflexes, and his only option was to arm block it. In here, blocking is not important as Ay's punches will go right through him. @Underlined, not sure how this is important or true to begin with.

Except SM durability dramatically increases their body so he is definitely blocking it much like Juugo. And the fact that the distance gives me more time to do something then what happen in Madara's situation.

Off topic: I have an interview, so I'll be replying back later.

GL. Always show confidence, my advice.
 

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The best example of Sage Mode having better sync with their reaction senses was already broken down:

1. Susanoo arrow attack compare to Sharingan reaction: [ > ]
2. Susanoo arrow attack compare to SM senses/perceptual: [ ]

Its a clear difference here

I was talking about the Choku Tomoe. And that's Kakashi, which no proper evidence showed his Sharingan was involved. It could have been his natural reaction time. However, there are many scans showing that Sharingan is superior.​

Except Naruto wasn't outdone as I shown later that he ran after Madara, which Madara escaped.

Again, you're not getting the point. Sasuke physically kept up with Madara by combining his reflexes and Sharingan all together: [ ]. Madara later remarked that Sasuke's movments are good thanks to his Choku Tomoe. Naruto, however, was blitzed right away: [ ].​

Brining out the obvious: How does that conclude that avoiding = reacting?

I never brought reaction in my original post. I said Naruto couldn't avoid it, because his body could not function with his sensory; reflexes and agility. With Ay who is a lot faster, Naruto will have a hard time blocking and he won't be dodging anything.​

Except SM durability dramatically increases their body so he is definitely blocking it much like Juugo. And the fact that the distance gives me more time to do something then what happen in Madara's situation.

Juugo has versions in his Senjutsu mode, and he is naturally more durable than Naruto. Unless you're obviously saying Kyuubi Chakra Mode is less durable than Sage mode, because Naruto in KCM was complaining about Ay's punch. Not to also mention that was V1 Ay. In V2, he was tearing Susanoo's defences.​

GL. Always show confidence, my advice.

I got accepted, haha. Too easy.​
 

Brother Numpsay

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I was talking about the Choku Tomoe. And that's Kakashi, which no proper evidence showed his Sharingan was involved. It could have been his natural reaction time. However, there are many scans showing that Sharingan is superior.​

@Bold: First link disagrees[ ]. All the attention was through his Sharingan as you can see the lines focusing on Kakashi's eye. Kakashi not having a Choku doesn't change the fact that his personal speed and reaction w/ 3T should be able to react to V1 Raikage blitz much like Sasuke. We can still tell the difference between Susanoo's arrow, V1, and V2 Raikage speeds. With these measurements concludes my premise.

Again, you're not getting the point. Sasuke physically kept up with Madara by combining his reflexes and Sharingan all together: [ ]. Madara later remarked that Sasuke's movments are good thanks to his Choku Tomoe. Naruto, however, was blitzed right away: [ ].​

Your points have nothing to do with Naruto's situation. Did Madara blitz Sasuke? No.

Naruto not doing anything but block Madara =/= Blitz, period. We can carefully exam the scan that Naruto decided to block instead. Sai and Naruto weren't injured at all so your blitzing argument is moot.

I never brought reaction in my original post. I said Naruto couldn't avoid it, because his body could not function with his sensory; reflexes and agility. With Ay who is a lot faster, Naruto will have a hard time blocking and he won't be dodging anything.​

Except SM users completely says otherwise that their sensory reflexes and agility surpasses even the likes of KCM. To which we know KCM can sense chakra too and already shown to react to V2.

Juugo has versions in his Senjutsu mode, and he is naturally more durable than Naruto. Unless you're obviously saying Kyuubi Chakra Mode is less durable than Sage mode, because Naruto in KCM was complaining about Ay's punch. Not to also mention that was V1 Ay. In V2, he was tearing Susanoo's defences.​

Doesn't matter what Juugo has as its not superior then Perfect Sage. SM can take physical blows, shown when he fell on top of spikes in his training. Doesn't matter if KM is more durable since SM is good enough. Naruto complaining =/= Naruto not being able to block his attack.
 

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@Bold: First link disagrees[ ]. All the attention was through his Sharingan as you can see the lines focusing on Kakashi's eye. Kakashi not having a Choku doesn't change the fact that his personal speed and reaction w/ 3T should be able to react to V1 Raikage blitz much like Sasuke. We can still tell the difference between Susanoo's arrow, V1, and V2 Raikage speeds. With these measurements concludes my premise.

It doesn't matter in the end, considering I can come up with scans that show Sharingan is superior. Yes, Choku Tomoe is superior based on Madara's explanation of its benefits: [ ]. Obviously will grant better properties than normal Sharingan and Mangekyou, thus the scan of Kakashi is not important.​

Your points have nothing to do with Naruto's situation. Did Madara blitz Sasuke? No.

Naruto not doing anything but block Madara =/= Blitz, period. We can carefully exam the scan that Naruto decided to block instead. Sai and Naruto weren't injured at all so your blitzing argument is moot.

Do you even know what ''blitz'' means? In slang terms, literally means taken out with pure speed - which is what exactly happened in Madara's and Naruto's situation. Thus, Madara blitzed Naruto. It's that simple. Naruto resorting to block instead of dodging only rises up my argument, considering I talked on how Naruto's sensory needs to function equally with his reflexes and agility. Since with Madara's situation, the only thing he could do is block because his reflexes weren't enough to dodge; thus will get blitzed by Ay. Huh? You don't need to be injured to be blitzed, though he did get taken for most of the chapter. So yes, my argument stands correct.​

Except SM users completely says otherwise that their sensory reflexes and agility surpasses even the likes of KCM. To which we know KCM can sense chakra too and already shown to react to V2.

Feats do not say that. All they say is their sensory, and not reflexes or agility. Being a normal sensory doesn't make equal to Sage mode sensory, because the latter can use natural energy to perceive better. The difference is that one lacks the body to function equally with sensory, and the second lacks sensory to function with the body; both apply for Naruto's case. Until I see SM Naruto's reflexes and agility are as good as his sensory, then I'll believe he can dodge Ay. Until then, I have no reason to believe such.​

Doesn't matter what Juugo has as its not superior then Perfect Sage. SM can take physical blows, shown when he fell on top of spikes in his training. Doesn't matter if KM is more durable since SM is good enough. Naruto complaining =/= Naruto not being able to block his attack.

No proof of that. Yes, because tanking a rock spike is a greater feat than tanking Ay's punch? Doesn't matter, because no feats of SM Naruto suggest he will tank Ay's punches. Complain definition:

''state that one is suffering from (a pain or other symptom of illness).''​
 

Sennin of Logic

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Naruto wins. Ay, in all likelyhood, doesn't have the pure speed to blitz Naruto (though this is debatable, but more likely than not, he can react). However, given SM durability and strength that matches a biju (tanking their attacks and throwing them around), Ay sure as heck can't one-shot him, and given that Naruto has ridiculously powerful jutsus in SM, ok, you get the picture.
 

Blackdeath667

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Naruto wins. Ay, in all likelyhood, doesn't have the pure speed to blitz Naruto (though this is debatable, but more likely than not, he can react). However, given SM durability and strength that matches a biju (tanking their attacks and throwing them around), Ay sure as heck can't one-shot him, and given that Naruto has ridiculously powerful jutsus in SM, ok, you get the picture.

naruto stated that if Ay hits him...he is in big trouble lol



im not debating but depending at the distance ...Ay wins
 

shelke

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Are you kidding me?

Could pain arc Naruto use SM Chou oodama rasenshuriken?
Could pain arc Naruto use Chou oodama rasengan?
Could pain arc Naruto throw 3 rasenshurikens per sennin mode?
Could pain arc Naruto fuse with ma and pa?
Could pain arc Naruto enter SM almost instantly and while talking?

Answers:
Obviously not x5

War arc SM Naruto is an entire tier above Pain arc SM Naruto.


Based on what is V1 Ei faster than the third raikage?ʻ
how does having more chakra than another person = outlasting them? Ei has more chakra, but if he uses things like V2 max shunshins and spams his RnY, heʻs not going to outlast the guy who not only has an enormous chakra pool himself, but has kyuubi healing, SM restoration powers, and increases his chakra reserves by adding natural energy to them.
Finally, why would naruto even throw FRS into Ei when Ei has to come to Naruto in order to attack him? Naruto doesnʻt even need the rasenshuriken, even a senpou rasengan would mess Ei up, anything above it like fuuton rasengan or oodama rasengan would outright kill Ei. Naruto just does the same thing he did to Eiʻs dad, or just shoves it right into Eiʻs fist instead of dodging. Or he could clone feint and blindside Ei with the rasengan.


No, Ei gets thrashed.

Given the fact that Kurama's chakra is not included, no he isn't. He still ran out of SM after using only a few FRS after the diversion via the Visual Genjutsu army created for the Juubi. Secondly, he made a large FRS, as a substitute for six regular ones. I don't see how this changes anything.

Naruto has never entered SM instantly. Even using BM - which makes Senjutsu kneading much faster - it still took him a few seconds to initiate it. Without Kurama's chakra, his feat against Madara's Mokuton would be a valid example. It took Naruto the regular amount of time to enter SM.

Dodai reacted to V1 Raikage just fine. Regular ninjas erected Doton walls before he could reach them. In fact, Dodai formed a Lava Balloon when Raikage was merely few feet away - 3 feet tops. Juugo, who blitzed Bee from behind, got thrown around like a ragdoll. That is how fast even V1 Ae is.

Ae doesn't need to use V2 against SM Naruto. If he does, the battle is over right at the start. There is no way in hell Naruto is evading V2 Ae. He gets slaughtered instantly. What are Naruto's feats to evade V1 Ae? When he couldn't get past him in KCM form, bar that one miraculous Bodyflicker, which FYI, he never replicated again?

SM restoration powers cannot outclass his KCM restoration powers. Even in that state he felt Ae's punches. Naruto at base level has mediocre reserves. The reason why he is able to pull out many clones is because the seal was designed in this manner to let a bit of Kurama's chakra leak and 'naturally mix' with his own. This is explained twice in the manga: once when Jiraiya removed the seal placed by Orochimaru, and the second time Naruto removed the key to attain the fox's power. Anyhow, why bring Kurama into this when it's restricted?

SM doesn't grant you more chakra. SM ends as soon as the chakra kneaded with Natural energy to form Senjutsu ends. Then we have the whole clone deal. He can use about 6 FRS if he doesn't leave clones to gather chakra. His time is also limited to 5 minutes, as I recall, or 2 FRS if he chooses to leave clones behind. It's not as easy as you think it is.

Do you think Ae is retarded? FRS works by throwing the mass of chakra and Futon Nature Manipulation. Naruto has always thrown it in SM, bar that one time against Kakuzu. Ae can evade it easily, as FRS is a slow technique in front of any fast opponent. Even Deva had little to no trouble performing three feats simultaneously. That is your assumption that Naruto even possesses the speed to catch Ae, and then hit him with a larger Rasangan. He isn't catching Ae, he isn't hitting him, and he certainly isn't killing him.

Naruto's mass clones won't help him against a speedster like Ae. They all carry limited stamina anyway. Easily shown when Deva used ST, all of his clones disappeared bar two which had the most stamina. He also needs two to make one FRS. If he leaves clones to extend his timing, there are no toads in numbers this time to help him summon it with a scroll and then initiate it beyond his limit.

This guy is over-rated by this base. SM Naruto is a sub-par opponent. Simple as that.
 

Brother Numpsay

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It doesn't matter in the end, considering I can come up with scans that show Sharingan is superior.​


No you didn't.

Yes, Choku Tomoe is superior based on Madara's explanation of its benefits: [ ]. Obviously will grant better properties than normal Sharingan and Mangekyou, thus the scan of Kakashi is not important.

Mangekyou argument was irrelevant to me as it was already demonstrated that 3T can keep up with V1 Ay. This foundation shows the difference that Sharingan is the only thing that was explained that they can see something but doesn't mean their bodies can react. While SM differs


Do you even know what ''blitz'' means? In slang terms, literally means taken out with pure speed - which is what exactly happened in Madara's and Naruto's situation. Thus, Madara blitzed Naruto. It's that simple. Naruto resorting to block instead of dodging only rises up my argument, considering I talked on how Naruto's sensory needs to function equally with his reflexes and agility. Since with Madara's situation, the only thing he could do is block because his reflexes weren't enough to dodge; thus will get blitzed by Ay. Huh? You don't need to be injured to be blitzed, though he did get taken for most of the chapter. So yes, my argument stands correct.​

Take your own advice. Was Naruto taken out by Madara? Nope, he continued to fight Madara, till Madara run away. Naruto's sensory has already shown that his reflexes and agility when he went up against 3rd Raikage and Juubito. Both actions were when he decided to take move around and both actions are superior to Madara's situation. While your argument has shown Naruto facing Madara by standing there an a dumbfound state, which still react to Madara. Reguardless how you want to interpret it, Blitzing isn't going to take out Naruto

Feats do not say that. All they say is their sensory, and not reflexes or agility. Being a normal sensory doesn't make equal to Sage mode sensory, because the latter can use natural energy to perceive better. The difference is that one lacks the body to function equally with sensory, and the second lacks sensory to function with the body; both apply for Naruto's case. Until I see SM Naruto's reflexes and agility are as good as his sensory, then I'll believe he can dodge Ay. Until then, I have no reason to believe such.​

Feats do say that and Naruto himself disagrees with you so theres nothing to argue about here. And now your contradicting your point to disprove SM ability. Your telling me that natural energy enables you to perceive better and that doesn't mean Naruto can perceive with it personally. I will no longer continue with this argument.

No proof of that. Yes, because tanking a rock spike is a greater feat than tanking Ay's punch? Doesn't matter, because no feats of SM Naruto suggest he will tank Ay's punches. Complain definition:

''state that one is suffering from (a pain or other symptom of illness).''​

There will be no case of tanking when Naruto can either dodge his liner strikes or simply block, which serves its purpose to dampened its original damage. Naruto has already stopped a Summoning Rhino from charging at him, which carries more weight then Ay. So I am pretty sure he has feats to defend Ay's mass, especially with SM perceptual ability on top of him reacting to his speed.
 

Prince Charles

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I would probably go with naruto mainly due to his use of clones.
 

Killua Zoldyck

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Did nothing= Did nothing. The only thing he was shown regenerating from was surface scratches. FRS was shown not doing shit to him. Planetary Rasengan hit Mu, and it dealt him so much damage that he couldn't regenerate properly or fast enough, that is real damage. Raikage got hit by FRS, and got up a second later.

But hey, lets deny manga canon why don't we? Its not like that is a new course of action for you.

FRS actually did a bit of damage, just not significant amount, and he had Raiton armour to tank the majority of it for him, while he did not have Raiton armour for Temaris Fūton.




Lol, what the hell? More shitty logic I see. , I guess they are equal in durability. Ay surviving means that his skin was hard enough. I don't know why this is still a debate when the manga shows Ay with his armor was pierced by Chidori, while the 3rd tanked a stronger attack.

They were barely cutting into his skin.



Either way, that's not much more than what Chidori did to Ay, so no, they are nowhere near equals when it comes to durability, unless you think Chidori>FRS. Lol

Something like Chidori is meant for piercing, why do you think Ei can cut his own arm off with ease, or the 3rd Raikage being capable of cutting himself as well? Its much different from blunt force damage, which a rasengan is. Chidori has a way better chance of hurting the the 3rd Raikage then Rasengan, and same apply's for Ei.


Maybe you should stop being daft and use common sense.

Chidori=Rasengan, and it hurt Ay with his armor on. Oodama Rasengan is a level above Chidori, and another level above that when used with Senjutsu. Ay couldn't tank a weaker attack with his armor, saying he can tank a stronger one is completely idiotic. Grounds for you not to be taken seriously.

Your implying that they will do the same damage no matter what the circumstances, despite it being painfully clear in the manga that that's not at all the case.


No, he was moving forward and Minato teleported above him. Can't read the manga? I figured.

You tell me to use common sense, but yet you yourself refuse to. It is CLEAR that Minato pushed him away because of his position in . I will make a thread about this if that's what it takes to drill this through that thick skull of yours.

Its not a matter of whether he goes for the clone. Naruto feints him out, meaning he ends up hitting the clone anyway. Clearly you don't know what a feint is based on this reply.

That would require that Naruto makes the clone the second before Ei hits him and move out the way, which won't happen.

Already replied to this horeshit logic. Ay being able to cover this distance quickly doesn't mean Naruto can't react. Especially since he already reacted to someone as fast as V1 Ay.

Cut the crap. I never said that Ei blitzes because of the distance in V1, the distance merely gives Naruto less time to execute his Jutsu.



Of course the guy wanking the shit out of Ay would say that.

I have no reason to wank Ei, you on the other hand, have wanked characters like SM Naruto in many threads. Obviously it won't change here.

Naruto was able to outright evade him, by far. Distance here is larger than it was VS. Madara, he has intel on Ay's speed and Madara didn't blitz shit as he was blocked, and it was from a closer distance. Yet you are still running your mouth about the same shitty example.

Lol. Naruto feints Ay with a clone and kills him with Rasengan. Or he summons Ma and Pa and paralyzes him. Or he makes a wall of clones to block Ay's blitz.

Blocking won't work against Ei if the latter goes for a chop.

Naruto ain't feinting shit, nor is he killing him with a rasengan. Ma and Pa gets blitzed off the get go, not that Naruto will have time to summon them.





If you didn't mean flying upwards when you stated "While Naruto is in the air" then you should have worded your post better.

Why would I word it better? It is you who should not assume that I meant flying upwards, use common sense that you said I should use.




You keep repeating this, but you don't add the proof, just flimsy, shitty evidence.


If Ay goes at Naruto with V1 and not V2, Naruto does what he did with the 3rd except he one shots him with Senpo Oodama Rasengan.

That won't happen, the reasons have already been discussed.



Wow...how can anyone be this stupid? Look inside both holes dumbass, and you will clearly see that the one the Yak made is mostly made up of rock, cause he plowed through the wall. Inside the one Jiraiya was traveling through, THERE WAS PIPE LAID ALL THROUGHOUT THE TUNNEL.

This dumbreply only shows that you didn't read the fucking post. Yes, we know that those are the same holes, but the tunnel the Yak created LEADS TO A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT TUNNEL. Which is where Jiraiya was at. The sheer fact that the insides of one tunnel looks like it was torn through (Hence there being NO pipe inside) while the others were already there, hence there being pipe inside.

If anyone is embarrassing himself, its the guy who can't read the manga, which is clearly you.

Mans gotta chill a little, this is a forum, not a bar fight.

Anyways, I have noticed my mistake, that you did not notice yourself. Jiraiya actually went through the broken pipe on top of the hole that the Yak created, not a different tunnel.


Small crack=/=Small chip.
Not to mention Ay hit Sasuke in a similar area.

Yeah, with help from Onoki. The only time he hit himself was here, and did nothing to Susanoo.

The chip occurred in the very next page buddy. A small crack is actually better then a chip, so that would only make your argument look worse.

Wrong, the only thing Ōnoki did was make him fly, E did the chop himself. And the instance where you claimed he did not crack Madaras Susanoo, he did, in the very next page, when Ei jumps off it is shown .




Lol? Do you even know how momentum works? His momentum comes from swinging Sasuke upwards, then downwards toward the ground. Momentum isn't going to change because Susanoo is what ended up hitting the ground. Why don't you open a physics book up one of these days so you'll stop spouting this BS? Lol.

Sigh.......Susanoo stopped the momentum. There would have been more momentum if he smashed Sasuke against the ground, because there would have been more distance that his arms could cover forms swinging Sasuke down, Susanoo shut down the momentum.






Something you obviously don't understand.

Oh I understand it, you seem to understand it as well, but you don't know how it works in that instance.

Yeah, and he did something that you are claiming he didn't. Shunshin, stop and Shunshin again. It was all one movement.

Nope, he used Shunshin to get to Naruto, and from Naruto to Sai and from Sai to Hashirama. Three consecutive Shunshin.

3 FRS is what makes him run out of Sage Mode. You are going to have to provide proof that he can only make 2 clones while in Sage Mode. Even then that's debatable since he was able to make an FRS big, with his clones out, and still remained in Sage Mode. So 3 FRS isn't even his limit at this point.

He literally made 3 FRS and 2 SM clones. At most, we could estimate that he could make 5-6 SM clones, but then he would have to avoid using Jutsu altogether. If he wants to stay in the match, he will have to avoid making many clones.



Lol, what the hell?

-Ay is dashing at Minato.


-Minato evades and teleports above him. Ay is in that position because he was already in that position when he was dashing towards Minato.


-Minato is about to cut Ay, but the tentacle comes and pushes Ay out of the way, so he ends up cutting that instead.

I don't know where you got this "Ay was kicked by Minato" and "Minato jumped up and cut the tentacle" shit from, but it wasn't the manga, as nothing of the sort was shown, at all.

You tell me to use common sense, but yet you yourself refuse to. It is CLEAR that Minato pushed him away because of his position in . I will make a thread about this if that's what it takes to drill this through that thick skull of yours.




Sasuke jumping back to Sakura's side doesn't mean he used Shunshin, so no, nothing is shown, at all. Just you inventing stuff to try and support your argument.

Lol, precog was for Juubito, no shit it doesn't give you enhanced Shunshin, but its not like Sasuke's Shunshin is on par with KCM Naruto anyway.

First we deny that the Yak made that hole in the wall, then we start babbling about subjects we don't understand (Momentum) and now we are saying that Sasuke=KCM Naruto in speed....lol, what a joke.

Your in denial. Sasuke used Shunshin, he did not just jump next to Sakura otherwise he would have came from up top, instead of appearing next to her in the next panel, same goes for KCM Naruto. So yes, EMS Sasuke's speed > KCM Narutos.
 
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shelke

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People, still under the delusion that KCM Naruto is faster than EMS Sasuke bar that single feat? Hilarious.
 

Sennin of Logic

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I'd like to clear up this misconception that Madara's faster than SM Naruto. Ok, we saw this..

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.......... but that was after this.


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How is this significant? Well, take this statement from Pain as an example, (that was proven right)

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Ransenshuriken takes up a lot of sage chakra, which results in him being weakened in SM. So let me ask you, if 3 FRS forces him out of SM, what do you think this does?

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The reason why Madara had so much success with SM Naruto is because he used a huge ransenshuriken, which weakened Naruto's sage power, and thus, his physical attributes.


Repeat, Madara is not faster or stronger than SM Naruto.
 

lanakui8

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Given the fact that Kurama's chakra is not included, no he isn't. He still ran out of SM after using only a few FRS after the diversion via the Visual Genjutsu army created for the Juubi. Secondly, he made a large FRS, as a substitute for six regular ones. I don't see how this changes anything.
Thatʻs basically you conceding that SM Naruto in the war arc has increased his SM capacity by 150% since you donʻt deny that he used 3 FRS per sennin mode while SM Naruto in the pain arc explicitly stated that 2 was his limit.

Youʻve also conceded that Naruto can use SM Chou oodama FRS in the war, and with just one use of sennin mode while in the pain arc he could only use 2 per sennin mode.

So youʻre saying that having your sennin mode capacity increased by 150% and being able to throw far more powerful FRS doesnʻt increase Narutoʻs powers from pain arc? Okay then.

Naruto has never entered SM instantly. Even using BM - which makes Senjutsu kneading much faster - it still took him a few seconds to initiate it. Without Kurama's chakra, his feat against Madara's Mokuton would be a valid example. It took Naruto the regular amount of time to enter SM.
Obviously I didnʻt mean he enters it in a literal instant. However the time it takes him to enter it has drastically decreased since the pain arc. And he never used SM against madaraʻs mokuton.

Dodai reacted to V1 Raikage just fine. Regular ninjas erected Doton walls before he could reach them. In fact, Dodai formed a Lava Balloon when Raikage was merely few feet away - 3 feet tops. Juugo, who blitzed Bee from behind, got thrown around like a ragdoll. That is how fast even V1 Ae is.
Regular ninjas used their wall jutsu before Sandaime even began running. Dodai was Sandaime raikageʻs right hand man, and heʻs probably the most powerful non-kage on the battlefield considering how well he did against Sandaime raikage and the fact that he took madaraʻs meteors with even less damage than gaara did.

Kid juugo was able to put his arms up and block V1 Eiʻs attack despite Eiʻs punch being inches away from juugoʻs face. Juugo only blindsided Bee because Bee was focused on fighting Sasuke and Suigetsu.

Naruto directly compared Sandaime raikageʻs speed to V1 Eiʻs, they are both of equal speed.

Ae doesn't need to use V2 against SM Naruto. If he does, the battle is over right at the start. There is no way in hell Naruto is evading V2 Ae. He gets slaughtered instantly. What are Naruto's feats to evade V1 Ae? When he couldn't get past him in KCM form, bar that one miraculous Bodyflicker, which FYI, he never replicated again?
Naruto doesnʻt need to evade V2 Ei, he just blocks the hit with his arms, while his clones end the Ei who just punched Naruto with a rasengan variant. Narutoʻs feats to evade V1 Ei is dodging and countering someone whoʻs explicitly compared to V1 Eiʻs speed. KCM Naruto didnʻt get passed V1 Ei because he held back his speed to the very end and KCM Naruto was making the first move. KCM Naruto not using his maximum shunshin again is completely irrelevant to his ability to do so, if a character can use a jutsu, then itʻs in his arsenal. Whether kishi has that character using said jutsu or not is up to plot. itʻs the same reason Sasuke doesnʻt use kirin or madara never uses the paths of pain. Doesnʻt mean they canʻt use those powers.

SM restoration powers cannot outclass his KCM restoration powers. Even in that state he felt Ae's punches. Naruto at base level has mediocre reserves. The reason why he is able to pull out many clones is because the seal was designed in this manner to let a bit of Kurama's chakra leak and 'naturally mix' with his own. This is explained twice in the manga: once when Jiraiya removed the seal placed by Orochimaru, and the second time Naruto removed the key to attain the fox's power. Anyhow, why bring Kurama into this when it's restricted?
The amount of Kuramaʻs chakra that leaks out of narutoʻs seal is negligible. The manga made it clear that the reason for leaking the chakra into narutoʻs reserves was so that naruto would be able to link up with Kuramaʻs chakra and chakra share like what he did in the war. Narutoʻs natural chakra reserves are massive as stated and implied by pretty much everything in the manga. As long as Naruto is kuramaʻs jinchuriki, he gets boosted healing from kurama even if heʻs not using kuramaʻs chakra, so thatʻs why kurama healing is a factor.

SM doesn't grant you more chakra. SM ends as soon as the chakra kneaded with Natural energy to form Senjutsu ends. Then we have the whole clone deal. He can use about 6 FRS if he doesn't leave clones to gather chakra. His time is also limited to 5 minutes, as I recall, or 2 FRS if he chooses to leave clones behind. It's not as easy as you think it is.
SM absolutely DOES grant you more chakra since SM chakra is created by mixing your regular chakra with natural energy. Therefore you have 1 cup of regular chakra and 1 cup of natural energy, you generate 2 cups of sennin mode chakra.

Why would naruto leaving clones behind to gather chakra have anything to do with the amount of time or FRS he can use in his SM? Why does war arc Naruto have only 5 minutes per sennin mode? Is it because war arc Naruto has proven he has 150% the amount of chakra that pain arc did per sennin mode? Is it because naruto explicitly stated that he was training to stay in sennin mode for longer periods of time?

Do you think Ae is retarded? FRS works by throwing the mass of chakra and Futon Nature Manipulation. Naruto has always thrown it in SM, bar that one time against Kakuzu. Ae can evade it easily, as FRS is a slow technique in front of any fast opponent. Even Deva had little to no trouble performing three feats simultaneously. That is your assumption that Naruto even possesses the speed to catch Ae, and then hit him with a larger Rasangan. He isn't catching Ae, he isn't hitting him, and he certainly isn't killing him.
Nope, Naruto slammed FRS into Kurama during their fight, and why does naruto have to throw it if shoving it into Ei gives Naruto the win? FRS is absolutely not a slow technique against Eiʻs calibre, Sandaime raikage barely dodged it the first time it was thrown and had Naruto been in SM, he would have expanded the technique and it would have hit.

Based on what is Naruto not catching Ei when Ei doesnʻt know who the real naruto is, and when Eiʻs only means of attack is running at his opponent and punching them with taijutsu? Based on what is Naruto not even hitting Ei? based on what is Naruto not killing Ei?

Nothing, notthing and more nothing. All of your assertions are completely and utterly baseless.

Naruto's mass clones won't help him against a speedster like Ae. They all carry limited stamina anyway. Easily shown when Deva used ST, all of his clones disappeared bar two which had the most stamina. He also needs two to make one FRS. If he leaves clones to extend his timing, there are no toads in numbers this time to help him summon it with a scroll and then initiate it beyond his limit.
Based on what will narutoʻs tajuu kagebunshin not help him against a speedster like Ei? Each of these clones has the same reactions, same strength, raw speed as naruto. If Ei hits one clone, the rest end him with rasengan variants, taijutsu or just grapple him or pressure him to the point where he gets hit by something lethal.
Devaʻs ST didnʻt destroy all bar two clones, there were tons of clones that didnʻt disappear, and the two that didnʻt disappear were only there because all the clones behind them were bracing them from the hit.

This guy is over-rated by this base. SM Naruto is a sub-par opponent. Simple as that.
I might have believed you if you actually gave an argument for that assertion. Yet youʻve given literally nothing BUT assertions. You assert that Ei does this with zero evidence, and you assert blatantly false things like pain arc SM Naruto = war arc SM Naruto. You donʻt even take into account Narutoʻs summons, and are completely ignorant of SM Narutoʻs feats such as slamming FRS into Kurama. Your post proves that SM Naruto isnʻt overated, it proves that YOU have character biased against SM Naruto and donʻt care about what is actually true, rather you just want to push your own agenda.

Itʻs as simple as that.
 
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Killua Zoldyck

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I'd like to clear up this misconception that Madara's faster than SM Naruto. Ok, we saw this..

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.......... but that was after this.


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How is this significant? Well, take this statement from Pain as an example, (that was proven right)

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Ransenshuriken takes up a lot of sage chakra, which results in him being weakened in SM. So let me ask you, if 3 FRS forces him out of SM, what do you think this does?

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The reason why Madara had so much success with SM Naruto is because he used a huge ransenshuriken, which weakened Naruto's sage power, and thus, his physical attributes.


Repeat, Madara is not faster or stronger than SM Naruto.

All you have proven is that Naruto can't stay in SM for long after using a FRS/COFRS. That in no way means that he looses precog and his reflexes decrease.

So yes, Madara is much faster then SM Naruto. If by stronger you mean physical strength, then I agree that Naruto is superior to Madara, if by strength you mean overall power, you must be joking.
 

Sennin of Logic

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All you have proven is that Naruto can't stay in SM for long after using a FRS/COFRS. That in no way means that he looses precog and his reflexes decrease.

So yes, Madara is much faster then SM Naruto. If by stronger you mean physical strength, then I agree that Naruto is superior to Madara, if by strength you mean overall power, you must be joking.


"Lost a lot of power." Yeah, it effected him physically. He also went from beating the snot out of them, to sneaking around.


As for second paragraph, option 1. And no, he's not faster.
 

shelke

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Thatʻs basically you conceding that SM Naruto in the war arc has increased his SM capacity by 150% since you donʻt deny that he used 3 FRS per sennin mode while SM Naruto in the pain arc explicitly stated that 2 was his limit.

Youʻve also conceded that Naruto can use SM Chou oodama FRS in the war, and with just one use of sennin mode while in the pain arc he could only use 2 per sennin mode.

So youʻre saying that having your sennin mode capacity increased by 150% and being able to throw far more powerful FRS doesnʻt increase Narutoʻs powers from pain arc? Okay then.



Obviously I didnʻt mean he enters it in a literal instant. However the time it takes him to enter it has drastically decreased since the pain arc. And he never used SM against madaraʻs mokuton.

Regular ninjas used their wall jutsu before Sandaime even began running. Dodai was Sandaime raikageʻs right hand man, and heʻs probably the most powerful non-kage on the battlefield considering how well he did against Sandaime raikage and the fact that he took madaraʻs meteors with even less damage than gaara did.

Kid juugo was able to put his arms up and block V1 Eiʻs attack despite Eiʻs punch being inches away from juugoʻs face. Juugo only blindsided Bee because Bee was focused on fighting Sasuke and Suigetsu.

Naruto directly compared Sandaime raikageʻs speed to V1 Eiʻs, they are both of equal speed.


Naruto doesnʻt need to evade V2 Ei, he just blocks the hit with his arms, while his clones end the Ei who just punched Naruto with a rasengan variant. Narutoʻs feats to evade V1 Ei is dodging and countering someone whoʻs explicitly compared to V1 Eiʻs speed. KCM Naruto didnʻt get passed V1 Ei because he held back his speed to the very end and KCM Naruto was making the first move. KCM Naruto not using his maximum shunshin again is completely irrelevant to his ability to do so, if a character can use a jutsu, then itʻs in his arsenal. Whether kishi has that character using said jutsu or not is up to plot. itʻs the same reason Sasuke doesnʻt use kirin or madara never uses the paths of pain. Doesnʻt mean they canʻt use those powers.


The amount of Kuramaʻs chakra that leaks out of narutoʻs seal is negligible. The manga made it clear that the reason for leaking the chakra into narutoʻs reserves was so that naruto would be able to link up with Kuramaʻs chakra and chakra share like what he did in the war. Narutoʻs natural chakra reserves are massive as stated and implied by pretty much everything in the manga. As long as Naruto is kuramaʻs jinchuriki, he gets boosted healing from kurama even if heʻs not using kuramaʻs chakra, so thatʻs why kurama healing is a factor.


SM absolutely DOES grant you more chakra since SM chakra is created by mixing your regular chakra with natural energy. Therefore you have 1 cup of regular chakra and 1 cup of natural energy, you generate 2 cups of sennin mode chakra.

Why would naruto leaving clones behind to gather chakra have anything to do with the amount of time or FRS he can use in his SM? Why does war arc Naruto have only 5 minutes per sennin mode? Is it because war arc Naruto has proven he has 150% the amount of chakra that pain arc did per sennin mode? Is it because naruto explicitly stated that he was training to stay in sennin mode for longer periods of time?


Nope, Naruto slammed FRS into Kurama during their fight, and why does naruto have to throw it if shoving it into Ei gives Naruto the win? FRS is absolutely not a slow technique against Eiʻs calibre, Sandaime raikage barely dodged it the first time it was thrown and had Naruto been in SM, he would have expanded the technique and it would have hit.

Based on what is Naruto not catching Ei when Ei doesnʻt know who the real naruto is, and when Eiʻs only means of attack is running at his opponent and punching them with taijutsu? Based on what is Naruto not even hitting Ei? based on what is Naruto not killing Ei?

Nothing, notthing and more nothing. All of your assertions are completely and utterly baseless.


Based on what will narutoʻs tajuu kagebunshin not help him against a speedster like Ei? Each of these clones has the same reactions, same strength, raw speed as naruto. If Ei hits one clone, the rest end him with rasengan variants, taijutsu or just grapple him or pressure him to the point where he gets hit by something lethal.
Devaʻs ST didnʻt destroy all bar two clones, there were tons of clones that didnʻt disappear, and the two that didnʻt disappear were only there because all the clones behind them were bracing them from the hit.


I might have believed you if you actually gave an argument for that assertion. Yet youʻve given literally nothing BUT assertions. You assert that Ei does this with zero evidence, and you assert blatantly false things like pain arc SM Naruto = war arc SM Naruto. You donʻt even take into account Narutoʻs summons, and are completely ignorant of SM Narutoʻs feats such as slamming FRS into Kurama. Your post proves that SM Naruto isnʻt overated, it proves that YOU have character biased against SM Naruto and donʻt care about what is actually true, rather you just want to push your own agenda.

Itʻs as simple as that.

From which angle am I agreeing that he improved his SM? Other than adding Kurama's chakra, his SM remains the same. False. His capacity was two only when he was using clones to gather NE. His limit is six otherwise: . As after using two, he was left with four.

No, you mentioned his chakra is increased. There is no such thing as chakra increase in SM. You simply create a new form of chakra by mixing three sources: Natural Energy + Physical Energy + Spiritual Energy: . That's all there is to it. What is this 150% anyway?

No, it isn't. Even while using clones against Madara, it still took him several seconds to enter SM. It was a good 10 seconds, despite two additional clones gathering NE:



- Raikage had already prepped his finger thrust. He was already running when the users erected the walls. It obvious because Dodai is shown dragging Naruto out of harms way:

Third Raikage's reflexes have nothing on Ae's, as they are like flashes of light, according to Chee: - Then we have ninjas using techniques when the guy has already bust through the wall: . Then we have Dodai, a featless guy when it comes to decent speed feats, react and form form hand seals and make a Lava ball comfortably from literally three feet away:

Where is your proof that Third matches Ae in any manner in speed? Even more hilarious are his FRS feats with KCM reflexes. He couldn't hit his properly with FRS, and he was dodging it like it was nothing.

No where in the manga is it mentioned that Senjutsu increases Chakra. Literally no where. I have even posted a scan. Go through it, kindly. All Senjutsu does is enhance your stats, as the chakra itself is enhanced in power, not in volume. That's it.

You mean the feats in his head? Bring out a single scan with pure SM that matches those feats. Also, he had already pulled a bit of Kurama's chakra by then, which was purified by Kushina. It was not even a base level feat.

Ae literally moves at blinding speed. He cuts through his clones easily, just like Third did through hordes of people. You have yet to prove to me that SM Naruto is anywhere near Ae's league in regards to speed alone. That fact alone is enough for me that he isn't landing a hit. To land a hit on Ae, he has to have faster and better reflexes than him. Something he doesn't have. I have yet to see a single coherent logic or scan from you, other than quite a few baseless numbers and a pile of assumptions.

You were wrong about chakra increase. You were wrong about instant initiation. You were wrong about that 150% - where did you get this from anyway? You are wrong about Ae's speed. You were wrong about FRS numbers. Baseless indeed.

How many large Rasangans Naruto has made without using Kurama's chakra, and in SM? Let's see those scans.

Which tons of them?





Your last paragraph is completely irrelevant, as I am the only one out of us two who has actually posted something factual. As for my bias, then I dislike Ae as well. I don't see why I would favour a retarded character like him.

Good to know.
 

lanakui8

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From which angle am I agreeing that he improved his SM? Other than adding Kurama's chakra, his SM remains the same. False. His capacity was two only when he was using clones to gather NE. His limit is six otherwise: . As after using two, he was left with four.
based on what did Naruto add Kuramaʻs chakra?

My goodness you are dense. If Naruto can only use 2 rasenshurikens per sennin mode, and he has 2 clones left (AKA 2 more sennin modes left) then naruto can use 4 more rasenshurikens.

No, you mentioned his chakra is increased. There is no such thing as chakra increase in SM. You simply create a new form of chakra by mixing three sources: Natural Energy + Physical Energy + Spiritual Energy: . That's all there is to it. What is this 150% anyway?
Thatʻs you conceding the argument that SM increases NArutoʻs chakra reserves. Iʻll repeat again and hopefully youʻll pay attention and respond to the point. If Naruto has 100 chakra, and SM chakra is created by chakra + natural energy, then Narutoʻs SM chakra is going to be comprised of 100 chakra + 50 natural energy. Therefore Narutoʻs SM chakra will be 150% his normal chakra reserves.

No, it isn't. Even while using clones against Madara, it still took him several seconds to enter SM. It was a good 10 seconds, despite two additional clones gathering NE:

Narutoʻs clones werenʻt gathering natural energy, only one naruto was, and no he entered it in far less time against the juubi and far less time when he was at full strength against iruka

- Raikage had already prepped his finger thrust. He was already running when the users erected the walls. It obvious because Dodai is shown dragging Naruto out of harms way:
manga panels are read from right to left, Raikage was running after the walls were used and dodai brought naruto on the other side.

Third Raikage's reflexes have nothing on Ae's, as they are like flashes of light, according to Chee: - Then we have ninjas using techniques when the guy has already bust through the wall: . Then we have Dodai, a featless guy when it comes to decent speed feats, react and form form hand seals and make a Lava ball comfortably from literally three feet away:
None of that has anything to do with showing that V1 Ei is faster than Sandaime raikage. Dodai being featless is completely irrelevant, if his only feats are reacting to someone whoʻs explicitly compared to V1 Eiʻs speed, then Dodai is simply that fast. I donʻt see what ninja being able to fire techniques at the point where Sandaime breaks through the wall means anything. Sandaime obviously wouldnʻt be travelling at his top speed immediately after going through a wall that stopped him in his tracks.

Where is your proof that Third matches Ae in any manner in speed? Even more hilarious are his FRS feats with KCM reflexes. He couldn't hit his properly with FRS, and he was dodging it like it was nothing.


He also wasnʻt dodging FRS like it was nothing, the first time he dodged it, the shuriken graized his hair, had naruto expanded it, it would have hit the raikage.

No where in the manga is it mentioned that Senjutsu increases Chakra. Literally no where. I have even posted a scan. Go through it, kindly. All Senjutsu does is enhance your stats, as the chakra itself is enhanced in power, not in volume. That's it.
Why in the world does it have to say that senjutsu increases chakra when we are given with an explicit explanation of how senjutsu works that makes it necessary true for it to increase a personʻs chakra. If you combine 1 cup of strawberry juice with 1 cup of grape juice, how much cups of juice do you end up with? 1 or 2? Obviously 2. Naruto combines his natural reserves with natural energy to make senjutsu, the additional natural energy means its necessary that the amount of senjutsu chakra naruto makes is 150% the amount of senjutsu chakra naruto naturally has. Not only that, pa explicitly stated that senjutsu techniques take in natural energy from the outside which means the user recovers faster from them.
Now where in the manga do you have evidence that SM DOESNʻT increase oneʻs chakra capacity?

You mean the feats in his head? Bring out a single scan with pure SM that matches those feats. Also, he had already pulled a bit of Kurama's chakra by then, which was purified by Kushina. It was not even a base level feat.
What in the world implies that Naruto was incapable of doing any of the feats he did in his fight with kurama in real life? The burden of proof is on you to show naruto is incapable of doing ANYTHING he did in his fight with kurama in real life.

Ae literally moves at blinding speed. He cuts through his clones easily, just like Third did through hordes of people. You have yet to prove to me that SM Naruto is anywhere near Ae's league in regards to speed alone. That fact alone is enough for me that he isn't landing a hit. To land a hit on Ae, he has to have faster and better reflexes than him. Something he doesn't have. I have yet to see a single coherent logic or scan from you, other than quite a few baseless numbers and a pile of assumptions.
"moves at blinding speed" means absolutely nothing, I could claim any character ʻmoves at blinding speed. Wait, so SM Narutoʻs clones = shinobi alliance fodder? Is that based on a SM naruto clone blitzing the third raikage? Yeah no.

SM Naruto doesnʻt have to be in Eiʻs league of speed in order to tag him unless naruto is restricted to pure taijutsu. Eiʻs only means of offense is running at naruto and attacking him, naruto blocks said hit and counterattacks with clones.

You were wrong about chakra increase. You were wrong about instant initiation. You were wrong about that 150% - where did you get this from anyway? You are wrong about Ae's speed. You were wrong about FRS numbers. Baseless indeed.
Um you were completely and utterly wrong about ALL OF THAT. 150% is proven by SM chakra consisting of 66% narutoʻs normal chakra and 33% natural energy. Therefore for every 66 chakra naruto has, heʻll get 100 sage chakra. Youʻve proven you have the reading comprehension of a toddler by claiming naruto can use 6 FRS without the clones.

How many large Rasangans Naruto has made without using Kurama's chakra, and in SM? Let's see those scans.
He made more than 25 SM Chou oodama rasengans and a FRS against Kurama without using up a single use of sennin mode.
He used a SM Chou oodama rasenshuriken without using up a sennin mode
He used 2 oodama rasengans and a rasenshuriken without losing sennin mode way back in the pain arc.

How many large rasengans do YOU think naruto can make without using kuramaʻs chakra?

Which tons of them?



Not surprisingly, you conveniently left out

Your last paragraph is completely irrelevant, as I am the only one out of us two who has actually posted something factual. As for my bias, then I dislike Ae as well. I don't see why I would favour a retarded character like him.

Good to know.
You claiming you dislike Ei is completely meaningless, it could be the case that you just dislike Naruto a hell of a lot more than Ei, or you could be simply lying which wouldnʻt be surprising considering what youʻve typed in our argument.
 
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