Sage Mode Naruto vs Ei
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DemonicAvenger
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Voidstep
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implying SM Naruto can't win unless he can dodge Raikage's V2 punch...
have you ever seen Raikage V2 punch kill/ko anyone?? silly clown with silly rabbit tricks xD
he doesn't need to dodge, he only needs to block the damn thing!! incase you forgot... SM gives him higher durability than KM
even Bee tanked and countered his full powered lariat... in BASE...
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Draegod
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Regular? No! Sage art continues Gargantuan? Yes! He cannot use Sage Rasenshuriken effectively because he has to throw it (Aye dodges no diff), And Naruto cannot use it close range with out hitting himself so it's almost useless.
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Implying that SM Naruto can dodge and tank
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It never killed anyone, but you make it seem as if Naruto will shrug it off and keep fighting. Naruto doesn't have CS armor protecting him and he's not in Kyubi chakra mode either. SM does enhance durability, but that doesn't mean that he can tank a lighting strike to the chest. If SM Naruto was in
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, then he would have been severely injured or worse.You can't block something if you can't react.
Show me a scan or prove that SM gives him higher durability than KCM.
That doesn't matter. Ei will keep punching Naruto around like a rag doll until he runs out of chakra.
You have yet to prove to me how Naruto can touch Ei. The only arguments regarding Naruto that I am seeing here are SM sensing, reflexes and durability. Those three things aren't helping him here when he can't even keep up with Ei, let alone tag him. Naruto beating the third Raikage? As if a mindless controlled edo compares to a real living body that can actually control his own movements.
The only way Naruto can win is if he is faster and can actually hit Ei, which he can't so he loses.
DemonicAvenger
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What do you mean by this? I was referring to a Oodama Rasengan in Sennin Mode if that's what you meant.
It would definitely damage him in some way. Chidori may be a piercing attack, but it still was able to penetrate Ay, despite not being able to do the same when clashing with a base Rasengan.
It would definitely damage him in some way. Chidori may be a piercing attack, but it still was able to penetrate Ay, despite not being able to do the same when clashing with a base Rasengan.
Voidstep
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Ok, now I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me to some extent, or if you're trying to argue against me...
because with that Jugo example, you're kinda helping my cause
you see...
- CS doesn't give any sensory abilities, and Jugo blocked the damn thing without it
- CS doesn't boost someones stats like SM does... and even then, Jugo survived the assault and countered him by trying to nuke him
example...
Rikudou sennin black rods would most likely penetrate Jugo skin
but Naruto blocked it, and it broke
and now a simple example about KCM and SM...
- in KCM Naruto twisted an ankle by smashing against a wall
- in SM Naruto falled from very high... on rock spikes... without a scratch, without a bruise
dude, in SM he not only has chakra sensing, but also danger sensing
yes, he will react to him
Naruto reacted to his full speed already, in KCM, which has no danger sensing...
even Jugo reacted without sensing....
WTF, lmao
Naruto is not invisible, dude
if he blocks an attack, Raikage will stop on his tracks for a moment, and he can counter him then
SM boosts not only durability, but also strength... a lot
he made a god damn rhino summon fly like it was nothing.......
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shelke
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Dear god!
CS2's durability or its outer structure growth durability far outclasses anything dear old Naruto has shown:
- Sword bouncing right off Juugo's CS2 skin:
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This is the force of the blow Suigetsu can put out:
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That is far more force than Minato's Rasangan, because that was a grassy ground and this isn't. It's nothing but stone and rock underneath. It's no surprise, as Suigetsu is a prodigy by Kisame's own admission with Kenjutsu or the 'art of murder' with a sword:
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This is the scale of the explosion CS2 tanked at the cost of a single wing:
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See the dot in the first image? That's the massive dragon Deidara is riding. And see the dot on Dragon's head? That's Deidara. That is how massive the explosion was. Which feat from Naruto even matches 5 % of this. I'll be waiting for a scan.
If Ae can pierce Juugo's CS2's skin with a punch, then Naruto is literally murdered with one or two punches. Juugo is no pushover, as the entire Akatsuki were warned about him:
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Let's get real.
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Voidstep
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I'm going to help you
here's some more CS2 durability feats, somehow you forgot about this ones...
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funny thing is that, Iruka sensei can do the same thing, without CS2 or SM
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CS2 strength feats...
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so... for you the sword bouncing on Jugo skin is impressive, but Naruto SM tanking a direct hit from black rod, not so much!?!?
do you want me to mention all the people that have been impaled by it!?!?
I mean... only fodders have been cut by that sword!! but the black rods have impaled top 10 people!
but hey, the swrod bouncing, is more impressive...
you should check those links again, with glasses this time
because that was not Juugo, that was Suigetsu who did that...
sure thing, man
I'm going to help you again
- it was V1 Raikage who did that...
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- as you can see, the same V1 Raikage just broke KCM Naruto's arms. if you look carefully, you can even see Naruto's fingers flying all over the place...
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- and here, the same V1 Raikage, just made a hole on Bee's hand...
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so, yeah, Juugo's durability is amazing. everyone got fked up by Raikage V1, no one can survive his punch.
if Juugo can't tank Raikage, no one else can, because Juugo is the best.
- here we can even see, not V1, but V2 Raikage vs Bee... and as you can see, Bee obviously loses his head...
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x'D
c'mon man
Juugo is a fkin sidekick, Hebi Sasuke could have killed him any time
he's bellow SM Naruto and Hebi Sasuke
shelke
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Putting that white haired guy and others at the same level as Suigetsu? Then is the explosion tanking feat. Both far outclass anything SM Naruto has done. Even Deva path was able to stab Kakashi with a rod. What's so special about it? Top ten people?
- Kakashi got impaled. It didn't even penetrate deep enough, as when Deva pulled it out, only a trickle leaked from the extremely shallow wound:
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What did he tank anyway? A well-placed shot outright went straight to his gut:
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Looks like Kurama stepped in again to heal him (again) and keep the damage minimal:
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Those CS2 feats are irrelevant, as Juugo's original body transformation ability and Cursed Seal of Heaven and earth are the strongest of the Transformations. Hence Juugo's feats hold relevance, along with Kimimaru, and Sasuke's:
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I already posted Sasuke tanking a large explosion. Now let's see Kimomaru's:
He completely deflected Gaara's crushing sand coffin technique when he was still transitioning into the seal:
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This is what he buried Kimimaru under, which he shrugged off in CS 2 form like it was nothing:
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Even buried 200 miles under, he still survived:
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This is when the guy was literally dying, as he bled from the mouth and almost died immediately:
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Not to mention he broke through his absolute defense with bare hands, so the power output is also incredible:
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But Naruto tanked a little rod once? Couldn't do it again though. It doesn't seem to have any real penetrative power, and simply primarily disrupts chakra and works as a receiver. In the hands of Nagato anyway.
Way to put down beheader. Get real, man -
- It regenerates by simply consuming blood:
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- Healing here again, but slicing a bit of fodder Kakashi. - Its shape makes it ideal for rolling heads:
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Slices only fodders is such a ridiculous argument, when it's called a beheader for a reason. Naruto tanking it is hardly a feat. A sword is a sword. Fodder or not, it would cut Naruto down. Even Bee had to stop the sword, when that guy tanked Ae's V2 Lariet in base:
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Yes, it was Suigetsu. Had to point out the power the guy puts out before you started balling strength and all that. So if it deflected off him like nothing, then it's something. So what has Naruto in SM tanked again that matches the explosion tanked by Sasuke or the sand weight completely resisted by Gaara? Nothing at all that comes even close.
By and by, if Ae can punch through Juugo's defenses, Naruto in SM is not even a problem, given how durable the seal is.
Also, what difference does it make if it was V1 or V2? Wait, I missed some points: did you actually compare KCM to SM? My goodness. Bee tanking Lariat is a testament to his durability. Not sure what point you are even trying to make here.
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yep.... I donʻt see how that nullifies what Iʻve stated. Naruto obviously doesnʻt convert his entire chakra reserves into sennin mode chakra when he uses that mode, else the moment he runs out of SM heʻd be at zero chakra and would die.
he left more clones at the summit to gather more natural energy. The clones had no senjutsu in them, they were simply holding natural energy as none of the clones are in sennin mode.
Yet preta path canʻt absorb just natural energy, he can only absorb senjutsu and Naruto had balanced the natural energy he was taking in perfectly with his own chakra as we literally see him enter sennin mode. If he was just gathering natural energy randomly heʻd either start spouting warts or not enter sennin mode at all. So no, naruto entered sennin mode 5 times.
Naruto re-entered Sennin mode by absorbing natural energy. Preta path absorbed all of narutoʻs senjutsu chakra, but since preta/nagato has no experience controlling the chakra he turned into stone.
Minutes absolutely have to do with how long naruto can stay in sennin mode. He can only stay in BM because of the imperfect link between himself and Kurama, however there is no linking process in sennin mode, the mode simply drains his senjutsu reserves as long as heʻs in it, therefore more senjutsu chakra = longer sennin mode.
Obviously he couldnʻt get passed Ei in KCM if Naruto is holding back his speed and making the first move while Sandaime raikage makes the first move. Did you even read in part one where moving at high speeds in a straight line lowers your ability to react? Did you even read the VoTe fight? Kn0 NAruto was blitzing 2 tomoe sasuke left and right, yet when sasuke got the 3 tomoe, he starts blitzing naruto. Why is that? Itʻs because Sasukeʻs reactions with the 3 tomoe allow him to counter KN0 Naruto without Sasuke having to be faster. Same thing with SM Naruto, as he has sensing that pretty much gives him precognition.
Since none of this has anything to do with my argument that the manga explicitly shows Senjutsu consisting of 2 parts chakra and 1 part NE which would result in a total chakra quantity of 3 senjutsu per 2 chakra, then youʻve conceded this point and therefore Senjutsu increases the userʻs chakra reserves by 150%.
He did barely dodge it, unless you address my argument for that in where I refer to Sandaimeʻs hair being cut by the rasenshuriken then youʻve conceded that point and therefore Sandaime, someone whoʻs as fast as Ei barely dodges it.
Based on what do the paths have abysmal speed? Kakashi couldnʻt even tag deva path, does kakashi have abysmal speed?
I donʻt see anything that youʻve posted that remotely alludes to Naruto even getting damaged w/o beeʻs help. Naruto blocked every single one of Eiʻs punches, he was initially surprised by Eiʻs speed since he didnʻt know the raikage was so fast and was explicitly stated by tsunade to have been keeping up with Ei.
If anyone was hindered by plot it was naruto since Kishi had naruto slowly increasing his speed till it was necessary for him to use his maximum shunshin. So nope, V1 nor V2 Ei blitz any version of NAruto thatʻs not in base. SM Naruto would counterblitz V1 Ei just like he did to sandaime raikage. Heʻd block V2 Eiʻs hits.
Naruto didnʻt pull any kurama chakra at the start, thatʻs in a video game. In the manga, heʻs merely connected to Kurama and receives none of kuramaʻs chakra until he rips the entire mass of kuramaʻs chakra from the beast itself.
So I guess you concede those two bottom points then.
He obviously desummoned them since the clones were still there and donʻt just poof on their own unless they are damaged or the original or they poof themselves. The ones in the back were the ones taking most of the force as they had nothing bracing themselves, the ones in the front took the least force as they were being braced. Shinra tensei is not a shockwave, itʻs gravitational force which is why Naruto is able to stop it by bracing.
Thatʻs basically the sore loserʻs way of conceding the argument.
Youʻve had to ignore pretty much everything iʻve stated and now youʻve started asserting that V1 Ei would have killed KCM Naruto if bee hadnʻt interveined despite KCM Naruto blocking every single one of V1 Eiʻs hits, taking zero damage from ei, not even trying to fight ei, and proving that he could have outsped Ei at anytime he wanted to if it werenʻt for plot.
Debate honestly, stop the mindless naruto hate.
shelke
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I am going to keep this mighty short, as you are clearly wasting everyone's time, especially mine:
1 - Irrelevant. Bring out anything to support your claim or give up.
2 - Pa outright states that his clones were infused with Senjutsu. Another useless and baseless claim on your behalf. Next.
3 - Senjutsu did nothing to Petra path. He turned to stone because of NE exceeding the natural balance required for controlling the harmony. If it was Naruto in their place, he would have turned to stone as well. To turn to stone one has to become one with nature. Another point explicitly supported by all the scans. You have nothing here as well.
4 - Still as nonsensical as ever. Show me a scan to support this percentage when the manga disagrees with you. Otherwise this is yet another one of your useless time-wasting claims.
5 - Right, because not only did they dodge the initial hit, but they even dodged the expansion. Deva's speed is nothing special. He is far from being the fastest. He was also not the only one who dodged it. The only path that fell in was human path, that threw animal path aside. Moving your shoulder a bit to dodge a technique clearly translates into barely dodging something. Looks like you have literally nothing to prove the so-called fast movement of FRS to me, other than your claims, which hold no value in this discussion.
6 - The scans prove otherwise. Ai smashing Bee into Naruto and the time when Naruto was about to summon clones are just two of the times when he had no clue where Ae even appeared from. I love the fact how you Naruto fans quickly resort to plot for Naruto of all the people, given that it was nothing but Deus Ex Machina that gave him the win against Pein. Another paragraph filled with assumptions. Ae was beyond something he could handle. Just accept it.
7 -
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and
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- Yeah sure, whatever you say, man. This is clearly the chakra he pulled out, which resulted in its hatred dragging along as well, something which was explained only a chapter back: a: The will of the tailed beast is dragged out only when the chakra is pulled out:
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b: So to control the chakra, the Jin has to filter the mind / will out of it:
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c: Kuahina did exactly that. She filtered the malevolence taken in from pulling Kurama's chakra out right here:
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d: That's exactly what Bee mentioned and that's exactly what Naruto did:
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So let's see, the manga agrees with me, which is why, you made that up. He never pulled off any of those feats without Kurama's chakra. His base SM was just as sub par as before.
8 - The clones fell back and ran out of stamina. They weren't moving and were in poor shape. There is zero evidence to prove your point. Give me one reason why he would desummon the mass of clones for no apparent reason? Clearly, you are making this up as well.
9 - Debate honestly? I have to hand it to you, you have guts to keep posting baseless garbage without any scans and then accuse the other party of being dishonest. Quite hilarious, given that your retorts are as empty as your arguments. Bring out scans next time.
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concession accepted since thatʻs you ignoring my arguments therefore conceding them.
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therefore they have not mixed their natural energy with their chakra in order to create senjutsu. So nope.
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then thereʻs the fact that the manga shows us
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mode which only happens when you convert your chakra into senjutsu by combining it perfectly with natural energy.So nope once again.
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for the one millionth time, if senjutsu chakra is created from 2/3 chakra and 1/3 natural energy, then for every 2 parts of chakra you put in, you get 3 parts senjutsu chakra. Therefore it logically follows that if you convert your chakra into senjutsu, the total amount will go up by 150%.
Based on what is devaʻs speed nothing special? Is it based on deva having the speed and reactions to tag kakashi before kakashi could tag deva? Also the other path dodged the rasenshuriken just as easily as deva did which means heʻs just as fast as deva.
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What in the world? Naruto knew exactly where Ei was in both instances, he was just hit by bee since he didnʻt expect Ei to use him as a hammer and nothing suggests he didnʻt know where Ei was when he made clones. Narutoʻs surprise was due to bee coming out of nowhere and blocking Eiʻs hit.
Naruto vs Pain has nothing to do with this argument. Ei being beyond something naruto could handle is absolutely the opposite of what was shown in the manga when bloodlusted maximum speed Ei couldnʻt even hit a Naruto who didnʻt want to fight him. ʻanother paragraph filled with assumptionsʻ is you conceding those assumptions since thatʻs in no way shape or form a counterargument.
literally none of what you just typed supports your argument. The manga explicitly showed via bee that itʻs only after you rip the chakra out of the other person and absorb it into yourself that you gain control over it. Naruto merely being ʻconnectedʻ to Kuramaʻs chakra is what the entire tug of war is all about, naruto has to connect to kuramaʻs chakra in order to pull kuramaʻs out. Nothing in the manga implied that Naruto was being powered by kuramaʻs chakra, him not pulling off feats like SM Chou oodama rasengan barrage before in no way shape or form means anything if Naruto had never attempted such a feat, not only that, but weʻve seen that Narutoʻs SM FRS was even stronger than that attack, so that absolutely does not put Naruto on a completely new tier featwise.
Thereʻs zero evidence to support your point that the clones fell back and ran out of stamina. Reasons for why he would desummon mass clones would be that it requires chakra and concentration to maintain them, and if they arenʻt required then itʻs just a waste.
Iʻm serious, debate honestly. Your entire arguments have devolved into you literally spewing assertions backed up by no arguments. THe one time you tried to back up an assertion with manga scans, the scans youʻve shown had nothing to do with proving your point. Youʻve been forced to continuously just ignore my own arguments which shows that you donʻt have answers for them. Therefore I ask once again: debate honestly.
shelke
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1 - They were infused with Senjutsu. Already posted a scan. Irrelevant point. Keep pressing on this. You clearly have nothing here.
2 - Already posted scans for this point as well.
3 - No, it doesn't. PE + SE = Chakra. That Chakra is harmonized with NE to simply create a powerful Chakra. NE adds zero volume. If anything this scan utterly destroys your logic, as Pa is simply talking about balance.
4 - Nothing but excuses. If Naruto knew what was happening, he wouldn't have been smashed back and Bee wouldn't have to step in repeatedly.
5 - The scans do so. The will cannot come forward without pulling the chakra out first. All I see is a paragraph that is backed by little evidence.
6 - They disappeared after being beaten and bruised. That's your evidence.
7 - Irrelevant.
Thatʻs you conceding the argument since youʻve ignored my explanation. If the manga says that a chidori can cut through anything, yet we have a scan of chidori not cutting through something, does that mean chidori still cuts through anything? Obviously not. Narutoʻs clones were shown to not be in sennin mode, therefore they were not using senjutsu. Also, if you want to take manga statements as absolute fact, then youʻd concede that naruto entered Sennin mode again when preta path grabbed him, and that it was senjutsu chakra that turned preta into stone, not raw natural energy.
So no matter what way you slice it, your assertion that Naruto converting all of his chakra into senjutsu = 6 FRS or that Naruto can convert his entire reserves into senjutsu if he doesnʻt have clones is false. Not only that, but even this scan proves that Naruto canʻt convert his entire reserves into sennin mode since he loses sennin mode
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Therefore unless you want to argue pein arc SM Naruto > war arc, then you are flat out wrong, your point is logically impossible.Thatʻs you conceding this point since none of your scans contradict what Iʻve posted. Pa literally states preta absorbs senjutsu which turns him into stone. Naruto was in sennin mode therefore he had to have perfectly balanced natural energy with his own chakra and created senjutsu. That conclusively proves your argument false, Narutoʻs pain arc reserves absolutely do not = 6 FRS. Then thereʻs the fact that you once again ignored that if Naruto converts all his chakra to senjutsu, he dies once he comes out of it.
None of what youʻve posted has anything to do with the bolded. Not only that, but what youʻve stated is flat out false. chakra isnʻt ʻharmonized with neʻ itʻs MIXED or COMBINED with NE to create senjutsu. Pa not explicitly saying it increases narutoʻs total chakra has nothing to do with whether it does or not if Pa is not talking about that topic. So youʻve conceded this point as well since none of your arguments have anything to do with disproving or even addressing my own, so youʻre ignoring my arguments and therefore an ignored argument is a conceded one.
Why? Naruto didnʻt even pay attention to Ei or bee, he thought Bee had Ei contained when he grabbed his tail. Bee stepping in to block Eiʻs punch has nothing to with Naruto not reacting. Ei attacked naruto 2 more times after that happened and guess what? Naruto blocked both hits. So nope, a holding back naruto was moving and reacting on the same level as V1 Ei. When Naruto and Ei got serious NAruto outclassed Eiʻs speed.
Youʻve failed to even address SM Narutoʻs reaction superiority over KCM Naruto or the fact that you donʻt need to be faster than your opponent in raw movement speed in order to counter and blitz them proven by KN0 Naruto vs Sasuke at VoTe.
Naruto pulled the chakra out of kurama with his own chakra. With that chakra connection, Kurama is able to transmit his will into Naruto. That has nothing to do with Naruto using Kuramaʻs chakra while heʻs in the process of pulling it out and only connected to it via his own chakra. thatʻs whatʻs explicitly shown when Kurama absorbs Beeʻs chakra and when Bee tells Naruto that Kurama can also pull narutoʻs chakra out of himself.
Except they didnʻt since shinra tensei was over, yet they were still there. Had they disappeared from damage, they wouldnʻt have still been around after the tech was done dealing damage. Then thereʻs the fact that the back clones take more damage than the front ones since the front ones and naruto are being braced by the back while no one braces the back. So.... nope.
Icelerate
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Who Shelke or Ianakui/lanakui, whatever his name is? Most of this debate was pointless though and a waste of time to all the debaters who took part although the debate was fun to read.
Xlad
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Lol. It honestly was. I never thought the thread would be this long.