Better brother,Itachi or Madara

[USSJ Future Trunks]

None of that stuff would have happened to Sasuke if Itachi didn't do what he did, because Sasuke would have died with the rest of the Uchiha, whether in the coup or by Itachi's hand.

and? if sasuke turns traitor because of itachis mental torture he will have to be kiled then. so all itachi did was delay an inevitable death. itachis actions have little to do with sasuke surviving everything he went through

 

[Tennis Robot]

and? if sasuke turns traitor because of itachis mental torture he will have to be kiled then. so all itachi did was delay an inevitable death. itachis actions have little to do with sasuke surviving everything he went through

Itachi's actions are the reason that Sasuke has been through anything at all.

 

[Conspirator.]

None of that stuff would have happened to Sasuke if Itachi didn't do what he did, because Sasuke would have died with the rest of the Uchiha, whether in the coup or by Itachi's hand.

Most people would rather die as opposed to getting tortured into complete and utter insanity.

 

[Tennis Robot]

Most people would rather die as opposed to getting tortured into complete and utter insanity.

Sasuke doesn't blame Itachi for his problems.

 

[Conspirator.]

Sasuke doesn't blame Itachi for his problems.

Sasuke not blaming Itachi for his problems doesn not necessarily mean that Itachi wasn't at fault.

 

[lucario14]

Sasuke doesn't blame Itachi for his problems.

That's because his love for itachi overrides logical thought processes at the time. He went so far as to call him perfect. Itachi was far from perfect he even said it himself that he failed in the end.

 

[TwistedSmile]

Itachi, no question about it.

 

[Conspirator.]

Itachi, no question about it.

How is Itachi so much better, to the point that there's "no question about it"?

 

[Avani]

yes considering sauskes only alive right now because of sakura and naruto saving him

Sasuke is still a shinobi. The way you are counting him being saved multiple times by others is funny for it's result of his career choice. Otherwise he should have just find a job at the ramen shop till Kaguya woke up and hanged them with Jubbi tree. Of course it wouldn't have been a bad choice.. Fire jutsu for smoked fish! Yay!

we know that eveyrhting itachi did was to make things a hundred times worse for sauske, doign eveyrhting possible to ensure sasuke is brutalised, corrupted, mentally raped, belittled, traumatised and beaten into a coma savagely, and to ensure sauske becomes an insane psychotic traitor that is drunk on hate and power, as well as the fact itachi offered up naruto as an innocent sacrifice to die at sasukes hands, just for the sake of sauske being stronger.

I am glad you agree that those methods were not nice and that Uchihas indulged in the worst practices to waken their powers.

so for itachi, sasukes happiness, innocence and sanity mean nothing.

And yet it seems Itachi gives more credit to Sasuke than you..

madara from what we know, would never be so evil and sadistic as to mentally rape izuna 3 times

If he had enough spine to stand up to Izuna and tell him to shut up and stop the war then things wouldn't have been deteriorated in the first place.

I wonder how you forgot that Madara wished for peace but Iznua wouldn't calm down and wanted more blood to stratify his whim.

I say madara did all this because he feels guilty- if he hadn't listened to Izuna and had showed the same strength as Hashirama and prevail over his brother then we would be reading a different story.

Tobirama respected Hashi's decisions when Hashi showed he was serious about it and won't budge. Madara lacked the conviction and strength to do the same when it came to Izuna.

without him sasuke would have his happiness and sanity.

But for Itachi BZ would have succeeded earlier. He wanted the war. Still I agree. Everybody is happy inside their cacoon hanging from the tree.

and either way, it was not itachi who saved sasukes ass in part 1. it ws his teammates

Itachi gave him a chance to live with them. Something Madara could give his brother if would tell them to shut up and give in.

danzos wrong.
sasuke was a kind and forgiving boy until itachi ruined all this by torutirng him. sauske was ready to put aside revenge for sakura/naruto. he didnt because of itachi and orochimaru raping his mind.
it took alot of abuse for him to decide on revenge at all costs.

Itachi knew the only way Uchiha powers wake up. Itachi could guess the storm coming to Konoha sooner or later and knew Sasuke would need that power.Not only for bvillage but himself too. Better than being a puppet of aktasuki/BZ controlled Tobi or Kaguya. ( Akatsuki was trying to revive jubbi and he had read Uchiha tablets.)

He chose to equip Sasuke with best Uchiha weapons and train him for it showing what it could do. Who knows how long Sasuke would have realized his powers if left alone. Kakashi tried but his own use of it was limited. - even he didn't realize how to use his MS till Itachi attacked him directly.

the massacre was to stop a war. massacre made itachi torture sasuke into becoming a psychotic supervillain traitor who hated the corrupt world in general.

You torture us more with same arguments. I would take Itachi over you. :|

war is a fact of shinobi life. If he cant handel sasuke dying in one, he shouldnt have left sasuke alive at said world.

Sasuke disagrees. Fact of shinobi life. You have to go some harsh training if you are an Uchiha. Your powers don't wake up in that clan unless you see enough torture or blood. What a surprise!

It's just a manga set in an alternative universe where modern war fare rules are not applicable if Writer hasn't incorporated them in.

sauske could have died so many times over during his revenge quest. civil war or not, massacre or not, sasukes ****ing doomed without sakura and naruto

who mentally raped said brother?

Whose brother was wrong and crazily lusting after more blood shed and wouldn't let his brother stop and would blackmail him emotionally for it? Which brother was emotionally weak enough to not take right decision and make his bro stand down as head of the clan?

itachi abused tortured and beat sauske into a coma. madara didnt. madaras brothers are dead but good guys. itachis brother is alive and a psychotic terrrorist due to said mental torture

How many times you are going to repeat in in a single post? We should ask for compensation for having to deal with same hate from you over and over.

sauske could have died so many times

We all could have died so many times.

so sauske didnt want to be an avenger and was at no risk of dying during that time?

No more than rest of his classmates. He could be his own person and join ramen guy any time.

your saying beating sasuke into a coma is being a better bro than loving izuna to the end?

Loving to kill more..not realizing that ending war means saving lives; not realizing that those dead in it, died in war which was not one sided; emotionally unstable to assess the situation; emotionally unstable to make right decisions for benefit of all instead of selfish revenge; yea.. Lots of love right there..

izuna is his own man. madara cant be shielding him in every single fight

Thus solely responsible for his stupidity, his stubbornness in continuing war when everyone even his own clan and brother wants differently and his death.

I agree Madara couldn't shield him from his own foolishness. People were lucky that Tobirama noticed the sole idiot needed to be taken cared of and saved rest of them all from him. For Madara wouldn't stand up to him.

you cant "save" someone when all you did was make them either insane or in a coma

You can't save anyone if you cannot stop them from jumping in a bloody war either. In such a case you have to suck up if they end up dead and not blame others for their death.

which it ididnt. itachis actions had nearly nothing to do with sauske surviving all the shit that befell him.

Nope. He only let him live and showed what his powers could be. Leaving the rest to Hiruzen. Hiruzen kept his side of promise.

so would have love for his friends and village. but itachi would rather sauske be a psychotic supervillain than living in peace.
what is life worth if your only living it as an insane madman?

Except that Sasuke is no more insane mad man than half his clan.

OT:

Who was the better brother? As a brother both Madara and Itachi failed. In case of Itachi- he only had two bad choices and he chose which seemed to cause lesser harm to people at large. At the same time he tried to push Sasuke for powering up in a round about way. In case of Madara him being stricter and better leader might have saved Izuna.

I would say Hashi was a better brother ( though sometime an embarrassing one) or Tobirama was a better brother ( though sometimes too practical).

Let's agree to Bee being the better brother than them all.

 

[USSJ Future Trunks]

Sasuke is still a shinobi. The way you are counting him being saved multiple times by others is funny for it's result of his career choice. Otherwise he should have just find a job at the ramen shop till Kaguya woke up and hanged them with Jubbi tree. Of course it wouldn't have been a bad choice.. Fire jutsu for smoked fish! Yay!

the supposed justification for everything itachi did was supposed to be giving him love and peace. but all itachi did was send sasuke headlong into more blood and more war. the opposite of what a pacifist should want for their only younger brother

And yet it seems Itachi gives more credit to Sasuke than you..

i give sasuke credit all the time. im confident in sasukes inherent strong will, good heart and determination.
im confident he would not have turned to evil had it not been for continuous years of torture loneliness, brutal beatings and manipulations by itachi and eventually, orochimaru. orochimaru promsing power was the hook that finally dragged sasuke down but he came to that decision because of itachi torturing him twice.

But for Itachi BZ would have succeeded earlier. He wanted the war. Still I agree. Everybody is happy inside their cacoon hanging from the tree.

give BZ some credit. if he wants something done, its getting done. all he would really have to do is twist nagato into invading konoha. he didnt have to rely on fugakus coup

How many times you are going to repeat in in a single post? We should ask for compensation for having to deal with same hate from you over and over.

its all i need to say to prove how horrible itachi is. its the one thing he did i cant forgive

Except that Sasuke is no more insane mad man than half his clan.

his clan tried to murder their best friends, tried to slaughter the kages, aided terrorists and vowed to butcher babies out of spiteful revenge?
wrong. his clan were soldiers and revolutionaries. no more evil than americas founding fathers

We all could have died so many times.

then why credit itachi with being sauskes sole and only saviour

You can't save anyone if you cannot stop them from jumping in a bloody war either. In such a case you have to suck up if they end up dead and not blame others for their death.

itachi sent sasuke to war by twisting his mind into a vengeful one. the life of a shinobi is a life of violence and death, let alone a shinobi vowing vengeance at any cost.

No more than rest of his classmates. He could be his own person and join ramen guy any time.

he could but not if itachi had his way.
sasuke was about to let go of revenge and die to save sakuras life. he was changing and would have let go of his grudge for naruto and sakuras sake. but then the hotel torture happened.

Whose brother was wrong and crazily lusting after more blood shed and wouldn't let his brother stop and would blackmail him emotionally for it? Which brother was emotionally weak enough to not take right decision and make his bro stand down as head of the clan?

i dont care. the discussion isnt about your hatred for izuna

You have to go some harsh training if you are an Uchiha. Your powers don't wake up in that clan unless you see enough torture or blood.

yes they do. shisui is one of the mightiest and most powerful ucihas and he was born into a world relatively at peace, resulting in shisui being a kind and forgiving man.
uchihas awake their true power through trauma. fine. but why sacrifice sanity and happiness for power? if itachi loves sasuke he wouldnt send him headlong into war via manipulating him into seeking revenge and power. thats not how pacifists behave.

Itachi knew the only way Uchiha powers wake up.

so he only wants a weapon then? he would sacrifice anything and anyone as long as he has his little puppet weapon to throw at konohas enemies?
if i knew my beloved sister had some great power sleeping in her but she had to go through terrible suffering to access it, and likely go insane along the way, id be disgusted with myself for even considering it and would try my best to put her happiness and kindness first, and strength second.
and its not like there was some prophecy that sasukes the only one who cna protect konoha. hes just another soldier among many others. no proof he can or ever will make much of a difference. yet itachi still insists on torture and manipulation to make his little super puppet.

Itachi could guess the storm coming to Konoha sooner or later and knew Sasuke would need that power.Not only for bvillage but himself too. B

what sasuke needs is sanity and loyalty. to the right side. to his comrades. to the world.
itachi ripped all of that away from him and as a result created a hate fuelled monstrous supervillain.
which he still refuses to take full responsibility for.
better that sauske is weak than yet another villain that konoha has to battle against, wouldnt you say?

He chose to equip Sasuke with best Uchiha weapons and train him for it showing what it could do.

he chose to torture sasuke ot madness with horrific hell dimension visions, and ripped his sanity apart resulting in sasuke becoming a vicious snarling psychopath.

do. Who knows how long Sasuke would have realized his powers if left alone.

who knows how long konoha will survive if sasuke gains his MS and declares war on humanity.

 

[Rainbow Dash]

Going with Madara with this one, but I wouldn't say that Itachi is a bad brother. Madara was in a much better position for protecting his brothers, he had power and authority. Itachi was in a horrible predicament to "protect" his brother. A lot of people always bring up how Itachi has repeatedly mindfucked Sasuke throughout his life. Yes that's a bad thing, but it had a positive purpose. If Itachi had left the village without confronting Sasuke and not do what he did, Sasuke wouldn't even be half the man he is today. Itachi made himself Sasuke's goal, and that is what strives Sasuke to become stronger. Strong enough to where he can protect himself. Throughout part 2, Sasuke has shown several times that he can take care of himself. All because Itachi made himself as Sasuke's goal. Whether you like Itachi or not, he truly did protect Sasuke even though it was indirectly. I'm sure Itachi would have been as great of a brother as Madara was if Itachi was in Madara's shoes. Vice versa, I'm sure that Madara wouldn't be as great as he is if he were to have been in Itachi's shoes.

 

[Supermanr]

Itachi always

 

[Avani]

...................................
then why credit itachi with being sauskes sole and only saviour

.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

i dont care. the discussion isnt about your hatred for izuna
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Who says Itachi is the only saviour? Itachi asked for help from Hiruzen and later on Naruto.

LOl Izuna is not worth hating. He wanted war, he got it. Madara being sad is understandable but Izuna's death was on him himself and no one else. Madara's guilt over it doesn't make him any better for worse for it. But he needs to stop blaming others for it.

Rest is just you saying the same thing since 2011. Carry on.

 

[~Sasuke~]

Itachi was. Madara was a horrible brother.

 

[USSJ Future Trunks]

. Itachi was in a horrible predicament to "protect" his brother. A lot of people always bring up how Itachi has repeatedly mind****ed Sasuke throughout his life. Yes that's a bad thing, but it had a positive purpose.

no it iddnt. it had the worst purpose possible.
his intention was to have sauske go back to a corrupt government, be under its thumb and its obediant little soldier puppet. he wanted for sauske more war. more death. more suffering. more tormenting. more mindrape.
how the hell can you have a positive purpose for violently raping your brothers mind and planning to enslave him if things go south?

. If Itachi had left the village without confronting Sasuke and not do what he did, Sasuke wouldn't even be half the man he is today.

HE DEFINITELY WONT BE A PSYCHOPATH WHO WAS PLANNING GENOCIDE JUST HOURS AGO IN-MANGA. fool.
without itachi torutring him and manipulating him into vowing to devote every second of every day to gaining more power and more hate, sasuke would have become one of the worlds greatest heroes.
actually sasuke would have become that EVEN TAKING INTO ACCOUNT THE MASSACRE AND TORTURE. alot of people forget this but sasuke in part 1 became someone willing to let everything go in order to save sakura and naruto. all his goals, all his training, he was prepared to give up everything he had worked for, and sacrifice himself to hold off gaara, just to make sure that naruto would not die.

but the experience that finally made sasukes brain switch to evil was the hotel torture, and orochimaru promising to give him more power than konoha can.
take those two instances out. and sasuke never falls.
and who cares if hes not as strong as a result.
id rather have an averagely strong hero protecting everyone than an unstoppable evil maniac trying to kill my city.

Itachi made himself Sasuke's goal, and that is what strives Sasuke to become stronger.

and what, thats the only way to make him stronger?
are you saying the hokages needed revenge and hatred as a motivation to get where they got? are you saying naruto does? are you saying that naruto would be way stronger if he was a blood drunk hateful psychopath?
all itachi did was send sasuke headlong into madness blood and death. sure he got stronger, but at the cost of his sanity, compassion and friends.

r. Strong enough to where he can protect himself.

what?
so itachi who is supposedly
- will of fire believer
- hokage level wisdom
- genius
- kind level headed man
honestly beleives that sasuke needs to be a blood drunk hateful man seeking power at any cost, just to protect himself?
THE WHOLE POINT OF WILL OF FIRE IS THAT YO HAVE FRIENDS TO DO THAT FOR YOU.
this philosophy of "only power matters, and you need hatred to get it" is a VILLAIN way of seeing the world. compeletely insane way of seeing the world and making someone else see it that way through manipulations and lies.
sasukes lost his goddamn mind if he thinks itachi has inherited hashiramas will when itachi couldnt understand the basic goddamn principles of will of fire.
itachi spat on the will of fire when he wanted to have sasuke slaughter innocent people JUST for the power to "protect himself".
its selfishness at its worst. itachi would massacre anyone and everyone if it means hes got his little puppet weapon.
and its not like he cared for sasuke as a PERSON. or else he would never even consider shoving genjutsu brainwashing down sasukes throat and forcing him to be loyal to konoha.
its all about giving konoha a new weapon to send inot battle. not love for sasuke.

elf. Throughout part 2, Sasuke has shown several times that he can take care of himself.

pretty sure thats because of orochimarus training, sasukes own will to achieve his goals, and extrenuous circumstances that always has his opponents weaker than usual. you know the infamous saying of sasuke cant beat anyone whos not dying or holding back already or kills themselves.

. Whether you like Itachi or not, he truly did protect Sasuke

he truly did try to torture sasuke to insanity, order him ot kill innocent people and beat him into a coma as well as attempt to permanently enslave sasuke against his will. he made damn sure that sasuke was as unsafe as possible.
itachi committed the worst and most evil crime in the series. he raped someone. it wasnt physical, though he did physically beat sasuke to a bare inch of his life. he completely violated everything that should have remained safe in sasukes mind, and ripped his sanity apart.

 

[shelke]

Sasuke is still a shinobi. The way you are counting him being saved multiple times by others is funny for it's result of his career choice. Otherwise he should have just find a job at the ramen shop till Kaguya woke up and hanged them with Jubbi tree. Of course it wouldn't have been a bad choice.. Fire jutsu for smoked fish! Yay!

I am glad you agree that those methods were not nice and that Uchihas indulged in the worst practices to waken their powers.


And yet it seems Itachi gives more credit to Sasuke than you..

If he had enough spine to stand up to Izuna and tell him to shut up and stop the war then things wouldn't have been deteriorated in the first place.

I wonder how you forgot that Madara wished for peace but Iznua wouldn't calm down and wanted more blood to stratify his whim.

I say madara did all this because he feels guilty- if he hadn't listened to Izuna and had showed the same strength as Hashirama and prevail over his brother then we would be reading a different story.

Tobirama respected Hashi's decisions when Hashi showed he was serious about it and won't budge. Madara lacked the conviction and strength to do the same when it came to Izuna.

But for Itachi BZ would have succeeded earlier. He wanted the war. Still I agree. Everybody is happy inside their cacoon hanging from the tree.



Itachi gave him a chance to live with them. Something Madara could give his brother if would tell them to shut up and give in.

Itachi knew the only way Uchiha powers wake up. Itachi could guess the storm coming to Konoha sooner or later and knew Sasuke would need that power.Not only for bvillage but himself too. Better than being a puppet of aktasuki/BZ controlled Tobi or Kaguya. ( Akatsuki was trying to revive jubbi and he had read Uchiha tablets.)

He chose to equip Sasuke with best Uchiha weapons and train him for it showing what it could do. Who knows how long Sasuke would have realized his powers if left alone. Kakashi tried but his own use of it was limited. - even he didn't realize how to use his MS till Itachi attacked him directly.



You torture us more with same arguments. I would take Itachi over you. :|

Sasuke disagrees. Fact of shinobi life. You have to go some harsh training if you are an Uchiha. Your powers don't wake up in that clan unless you see enough torture or blood. What a surprise!

It's just a manga set in an alternative universe where modern war fare rules are not applicable if Writer hasn't incorporated them in.

Whose brother was wrong and crazily lusting after more blood shed and wouldn't let his brother stop and would blackmail him emotionally for it? Which brother was emotionally weak enough to not take right decision and make his bro stand down as head of the clan?



How many times you are going to repeat in in a single post? We should ask for compensation for having to deal with same hate from you over and over.

We all could have died so many times.



No more than rest of his classmates. He could be his own person and join ramen guy any time.



Loving to kill more..not realizing that ending war means saving lives; not realizing that those dead in it, died in war which was not one sided; emotionally unstable to assess the situation; emotionally unstable to make right decisions for benefit of all instead of selfish revenge; yea.. Lots of love right there..

Thus solely responsible for his stupidity, his stubbornness in continuing war when everyone even his own clan and brother wants differently and his death.

I agree Madara couldn't shield him from his own foolishness. People were lucky that Tobirama noticed the sole idiot needed to be taken cared of and saved rest of them all from him. For Madara wouldn't stand up to him.



You can't save anyone if you cannot stop them from jumping in a bloody war either. In such a case you have to suck up if they end up dead and not blame others for their death.



Nope. He only let him live and showed what his powers could be. Leaving the rest to Hiruzen. Hiruzen kept his side of promise.

Except that Sasuke is no more insane mad man than half his clan.

OT:

Who was the better brother? As a brother both Madara and Itachi failed. In case of Itachi- he only had two bad choices and he chose which seemed to cause lesser harm to people at large. At the same time he tried to push Sasuke for powering up in a round about way. In case of Madara him being stricter and better leader might have saved Izuna.

I would say Hashi was a better brother ( though sometime an embarrassing one) or Tobirama was a better brother ( though sometimes too practical).

Let's agree to Bee being the better brother than them all.

Your post reeks of bias. Izuna declaring that Senju could not be trusted hardly translates into him being a war monger. What you stated doesn't make an ounce of sense. "Shutting up Izuna or Tobirama taking care of him" is such a ridiculous thing to state, when Tobirama's pettiness revealed itself in form of his political policies not long after and the entire Senju Clan backed him up. Was Izuna wrong? I don't think so.

I guess, we all know who truly needed to be taken care of, and I highly doubt it was Izuna.

 

[Lana Del Taka]

Why is this being discussed? Izuna is dead, Sasuke isn't. There is your answer.

 

[Uchihajin Sasuke]

Madara, purely because of the fact that madara actually respected his brother's wishes and didn't treat him like little puppy. Also madara never conformed to konoha's rule by D riding the senju and ousting the uchiha like itachi did. He was a loyal uchiha through and through.

Madz wasn't a senju dog, and actually respected Izuna's wishes.

Maddy anyday.

 

[Avani]

Your post reeks of bias. Izuna declaring that Senju could not be trusted hardly translates into him being a war monger. What you stated doesn't make an ounce of sense. "Shutting up Izuna or Tobirama taking care of him" is such a ridiculous thing to state, when Tobirama's pettiness revealed itself in form of his political policies not long after and the entire Senju Clan backed him up. Was Izuna wrong? I don't think so.

I guess, we all know who truly needed to be taken care of, and I highly doubt it was Izuna.

Yea right..see who's talking.

Madara trsuted Hashi. Izuna didn't even trust his brother's judgement. They disagreed. Tobirama won that battle. Rest is water under the bridge. What are you going to do about it? It's not like Senju could trust Uchiha anymore than the other way round and yet they were ready to try.

You are complaining about Tobirama's pettiness while Madara was sitting there underground fanning his hatred and moon eye plan bidding for his time. :|

I would say Hashi trusted him to be dead and he cheated even there. But I doubt you can take a joke when it comes to someone not being that sorry for Sasuke to hate Itachi on this count.

Sasuke ended up in bad position but there are times when people may have conflicting duties and no right or wrong decisions.

 

[shelke]

Yea right..see who's talking.

Madara trsuted Hashi. Izuna didn't even trust his brother's judgement. They disagreed. Tobirama won that battle. Rest is water under the bridge. What are you going to do about it? It's not like Senju could trust Uchiha anymore than the other way round and yet they were ready to try.

You are complaining about Tobirama's pettiness while Madara was sitting there underground fanning his hatred and moon eye plan bidding for his time. :|

I would say Hashi trusted him to be dead and he cheated even there. But I doubt you can take a joke when it comes to someone not being that sorry for Sasuke to hate Itachi on this count.

Sasuke ended up in bad position but there are times when people may have conflicting duties and no right or wrong decisions.

I said it just the way I saw it. I am not saying I am any less biased. Believe you me, I have always accepted it.

It's not an issue of distrust, but your post that simply states this in a nutshell: "All Senju wanted peace, that bad bad Izuna was the only bump in the road, that nice man Tobirama smoothed out everything". Did I get it all? You made it sound all so cut and dry, when the tensions between the groups never mollified and who exactly was it that kept it alive? It was Tobirama. These parts were the only ones that bothered me, so I decided to reply to them.

Tobirama is the root cause of this whole conflict. Let's not underestimate this man's blind hatred and self-serving policies.

Hey I can take jokes. I am not as uptight as some people believe me to be. Well, Hashirama was a fool, so, it was perhaps easy to hoodwink him.

Right is right, wrong is wrong. We can bring the whole issue of philosophy here, but in that case, even existence is a matter of pointlessness, so we have to treat desecration of the treaty, betraying ones family, abiding with an arbitrary system to be universal wrongs.