I said it just the way I saw it. I am not saying I am any less biased. Believe you me, I have always accepted it.
It's not an issue of distrust, but your post that simply states this in a nutshell: "All Senju wanted peace, that bad bad Izuna was the only bump in the road, that nice man Tobirama smoothed out everything". Did I get it all? You made it sound all so cut and dry, when the tensions between the groups never mollified and who exactly was it that kept it alive? It was Tobirama. These parts were the only ones that bothered me, so I decided to reply to them.
Tobirama is the root cause of this whole conflict. Let's not underestimate this man's blind hatred and self-serving policies.
Hey I can take jokes. I am not as uptight as some people believe me to be. Well, Hashirama was a fool, so, it was perhaps easy to hoodwink him.
Right is right, wrong is wrong. We can bring the whole issue of philosophy here, but in that case, even existence is a matter of pointlessness, so we have to treat desecration of the treaty, betraying ones family, abiding with an arbitrary system to be universal wrongs.
I am saying things as I see it. And from my POV you being biased is what make you see me biased.If I am biased then only towards my own personal ideals and values. Other wise I am looking at the situation practically without getting emotionally charged for either party.
Maybe Tobirama would have been nicer to Madara if he didn't demand his head in name of peace. Whether Tobirama was nice or not is not even the topic of discussion. But if you are accusing him of blind hatred you are more biased than you realize. He didn't hate him the way you use the word. He didn't trust them enough but he did recognize the likes of Kagami and Shisui. His analysis of Uchihas was quite accurate as well. If he failed it was only because he couldn't come up with better plan for them. And Uchihas were not that patient people either. Tobirama doesn't seem to have been Hokage that long seeing Hiruzen and others were pretty young.
The efforts for peace and patience are needed on both sides. Senjus had lost their family too. It was just one brother extra. One side making extra emotional demand often doesn't work even in romantic relationship. These two clans were not even involved that way.
If right and wrong are so rigid then madara is on the wrong side for pushing everyone in extinction for his personal vendetta and dream which suits nobody but him. Not even rest of Uchihas. I hardly see him being sorry for his own clan's being killed. He casually stabbed Sasuke on his part. Obito was nothing but toy for him. How is Tobirama root cause of the evil when BZ and Madara were lurking around creating situations to make it worse for rest of Uchihas?
Tobirama giving them police didn't mean they couldn't contend for other things if they chose to. But clan got alienated and suspected when Mianto died. Before that them and Danzou were spying on each other. Not nice but these were new parties playing dirty politics. Danzou was jealous maybe. But Tobirama was already dead. His decision wasn't best maybe but hardly worth the merit to accuse him suddenly of all the problems Uchihas had. Don't forget their own dead but not so dead ancestors.
I am saying things as I see it. And from my POV you being biased is what make you see me biased.If I am biased then only towards my own personal ideals and values. Other wise I am looking at the situation practically without getting emotionally charged for either party.
Maybe Tobirama would have been nicer to Madara if he didn't demand his head in name of peace. Whether Tobirama was nice or not is not even the topic of discussion. But if you are accusing him of blind hatred you are more biased than you realize. He didn't hate him the way you use the word. He didn't trust them enough but he did recognize the likes of Kagami and Shisui. His analysis of Uchihas was quite accurate as well. If he failed it was only because he couldn't come up with better plan for them. And Uchihas were not that patient people either. Tobirama doesn't seem to have been Hokage that long seeing Hiruzen and others were pretty young.
The efforts for peace and patience are needed on both sides. Senjus had lost their family too. It was just one brother extra. One side making extra emotional demand often doesn't work even in romantic relationship. These two clans were not even involved that way.
If right and wrong are so rigid then madara is on the wrong side for pushing everyone in extinction for his personal vendetta and dream which suits nobody but him. Not even rest of Uchihas. I hardly see him being sorry for his own clan's being killed. He casually stabbed Sasuke on his part. Obito was nothing but toy for him. How is Tobirama root cause of the evil when BZ and Madara were lurking around creating situations to make it worse for rest of Uchihas?
Tobirama giving them police didn't mean they couldn't contend for other things if they chose to. But clan got alienated and suspected when Mianto died. Before than them and Danzou were spying on each other. But Tobirama was already dead. His decision wasn't best maybe but hardly worth the merit to accuse him suddenly of all the problems Uchihas had because of their own dead but not so dead ancestors.
Glossing over Senju Clan's nice achievements through Tobirama is deliberately dumping the whole deal on Uchiha clan's head, which is something beyond personal bias - it's warping the manga evidence.
Which is why he did everything he could do in his power to, pardon my language, urinate all over the peace treaty which was supposed to be a clean slate for both clans? Thwarted their place in the Jounin council and thus as Hokage candidates? Started a surveillance on them? One doesn't have to outright state ones hatred for a particular lobby. If I am a member of a political system and it's in my power to limit political control of a particular group to utterly segregate them, then no matter how many times I state that I am fair and impartial, my actions would speak for themselves.
So, in your most humble opinion, whichever from the Uchiha Clan saw eye to eye with his utterly ridiculous political system had a nice snug place in his heart, the rest were to be condemned to obscurity and isolation? Funny thing, he didn't even lend this courtesy to Kagame despite his laughably blind faith in the guy. Goes to show how this man was justice and impartiality personified, and truly cared for the Uchiha clan.
Yet, it's the Uchiha clan who ousted Madara and lived in isolation for fifty plus long years, and it was Tobirama and Senju Clan that completely warped the treaty in their favour? Tobirama's political policies and actions speak volumes that which group bore nothing but hatred in their hearts. Even funnier is the fact that it's Tobirama's torch bearers that make up the elite council and it's the same council that opted in the favour of Uchiha Clan's slaughter. Too many coincidences for this man, I guess.
Is he wrong? The Kages even came together because all of those sons of *****es were threatened. Had Madara threatened one village, none of them would have budged. It's nothing but a joint interest. There is no such thing as eternal peace. Madara's ideals maybe warped, but they are at least realistic.
I didn't say anything about Madara being a good guy. The clan ousted him, why would such a man care for them? My point being, Tobirama is to blame for how Madara reacted. He was always right in not trusting the Senju clan and so was Izuna.
So, is it Madara and Itachi's responsibility to make sure that their little brothers don't die? If one of their younger brothers die are they automatically labeled as a bad brother? But wait, since when could other people control death? Madara had no control over Izuna's life and it's not like he was trying to kill him or torture him like Itachi did multiple times to Sasuke.
Izuna is dead, but was it really Madara's fault? You people are blaming Izuna's death on Madara as if Madara is his gatekeeper. Why blame his death on Madara when Madara himself was trying to protect him. He couldn't control his death and the fact that they were fighting in a war is more logic backed behind death that can't be stopped.
Itachi's actions on Sasuke are far far demeaning than anything that Madara has ever done to his brother. Itachi's main goal might have been to "protect his little brother" but that still doesn't negate all the wrong that he did him.
People are saying that an alive brother is better than a dead brother, which is somewhat true, but it all depends on the circumstances and what you did to your brother. If I have a brother, and me and him are in a war together fighting and he died by some means, does that automatically make me the bad brother because I couldn't protect my brother from death? No, because we were in a war and Death is a fate that we all share so if my younger brother steps on a bomb and dies then that doesn't make me the bad brother. It just means that he died in fighting for something that he wants to save or protect, so I can't control his actions and what he does.
What Itachi did to Sasuke during their first reunion was not necessary, and he could have just skipped all that and just ran away. Putting him in a Genjutsu in reminiscence of that nightmare that caused him pain from the beginning was very brutal and uncalled for. Itachi never made the effort to spend time with his brother during the old days and always pushed him away. Itachi never let Sasuke into his life, and that's one of the main reasons why Itachi wasn't a good brother.
The guy who mind raped his 8 eight year old little brother by showing him their whole family and friends get slaughtered thousands of times over, and then defected the village, and then came back a few years later, mind raped him again.
Glossing over Senju Clan's nice achievements through Tobirama is deliberately dumping the whole deal on Uchiha clan's head, which is something beyond personal bias - it's warping the manga evidence.
Are you sure it's not your personal bias exaggerating everything? I didn't gloss over anything. I was commenting about Itachi and Madara. The thread topic concerns them. You come in the thread and turn into a discussion over Tobirama.
Taking my one line comment and turning into something else. The same way you do with the manga. Pick some raw rice and cook up a birayani adding a hell lot of your personal ingredients and then claim Kishi was the one to put the dish on the table. News flash- he can be held responsible for plain rice- not the biryani you are turning it in to. Same goes for me. Spare me your additions to what I said.
Objectivity is a nice thing. Personal agendas are only a hindrance in any real discussion.
Which is why he did everything he could do in his power to, pardon my language, urinate all over the peace treaty which was supposed to be a clean slate for both clans? Thwarted their place in the Jounin council and thus as Hokage candidates? Started a surveillance on them?
It could be a clean slate but Madara immediately turned hostile while they were still settling on hokage. Hashi tried to talk to him but he evaded him saying he had his own plans ( hello - he was already onto moon eye plan even before his own clan ignored him). Tobirama had his faults but you cannot put it all on to him. Especially since he could be flexible when Hashi would be strict.
Thwarted from Jounin council? I forgot the manga page regarding that- link me up the exact panel where it's mentioned. ( I'm bored with this thread now but I would like to remember for future reference if I ever get around to discuss it again).
Not a hokage candidate? Again Manga panel please. Uchihas held Jounin positions regularly. Even Sasuke's mothers was one. They took missions like others, were ANBU members. is there a reason to assume they were specifically disallowed to be in the council? Why Obito didn't know it even?
Tobirama selected next hokage ( at least an interim one on the spot), His method was pretty simple- Kagami could have volunteered for diversion as could other four. Hiruzen did it first and the Second made gave the seat to him. Danzou wanted the seat so he challenged Hiruzen and lost. It never came up but it wouldn't be surprising that other elders also felt a little jealous and tried to put pressure on him time to time to get things done their way but all this was never stated in clear terms. We just saw them siding with Danzou on occasion. Danzou was allowed to make Root - he was an extremist- an approach he clearly took to undermine Hiruzen too and we saw even Tsunade had felt the need to keep an eye on "root" too.
How can you disregard all this that multiple parties were playing their little games - and it's not like modern nations don't have all these issues even in democracies with all those phone taping cases or political murders etc. Doesn't lessens importance of the existence of the country and relative peace in them.
Kagami and other Uchihas were probably part of Jounin council when they were around. It's just that they wouldn't see eye to eye with Danzou on all issues.
One doesn't have to outright state ones hatred for a particular lobby. If I am a member of a political system and it's in my power to limit political control of a particular group to utterly segregate them, then no matter how many times I state that I am fair and impartial, my actions would speak for themselves.
Giving them a permanent position of power is not that much of a segregation. Uchihas could talk and say they didn't want it. Making them all cops might earn them some jealously from others but throughout the most of the manga they were not alienated till Minato died in Kyuubi attack and none of the Uchihas could help ( they were all absent somehow).
Obito always said he wanted to be Hokage and I see none of them telling him that Uchihas were barred. Nor an adult Obito now who has seen it all and more saying anything about Uchiha not being able to be a candidate. For all I know if the Kyuubi incident didn't happen Itachi some day might have been Hokage. Give me a panel where it says Uchihas couldn't get any other position. Itachi joined ANBU- his own clan sent him as an spy. It back fired but that's another story.
So, in your most humble opinion, whichever from the Uchiha Clan saw eye to eye with his utterly ridiculous political system had a nice snug place in his heart, the rest were to be condemned to obscurity and isolation? Funny thing, he didn't even lend this courtesy to Kagame despite his laughably blind faith in the guy. Goes to show how this man was justice and impartiality personified, and truly cared for the Uchiha clan.
My humble opinion would be to tell you go back to reading manga again and tell me how come Obito is unaware of the law which prohibited him from being Hokage or anything else if he didn't want to be a cop while you somehow know. He always aimed for Hokage while in Konoha and openly talked about it. He still hasn't once said he was barred from it nor anyone else made such a suggestion.
Tell me where it is said Uchiha couldn't sell ice cream if they wanted to. They used to go on missions from Konoha. Konoha couldn't even afford to not use Uchiha nins. Past the massacre Konoha struggled to maintain it's position. Only Danzou was benefiting from it s in pushing Hokages to take help from ROOT after. Tsunade tried to resist even when she was having problems of lack of nins for missions. And would let the Team 7 which had Naruto the village jinchuriki, Kakashi an important nin and her student Sakura give time to find Sasuke among those conditions even. And wouldn't declare him a missing nin. Is that Senju hating on Uchiha blindly?
Yet, it's the Uchiha clan who ousted Madara and lived in isolation for fifty plus long years, and it was Tobirama and Senju Clan that completely warped the treaty in their favour? Tobirama's political policies and actions speak volumes that which group bore nothing but hatred in their hearts. Even funnier is the fact that it's Tobirama's torch bearers that make up the elite council and it's the same council that opted in the favour of Uchiha Clan's slaughter. Too many coincidences for this man, I guess.
Irrelevant till you can find manga panel stating the things I asked above.
Is he wrong? The Kages even came together because all of those sons of *****es were threatened. Had Madara threatened one village, none of them would have budged. It's nothing but a joint interest. There is no such thing as eternal peace. Madara's ideals maybe warped, but they are at least realistic.
Yea he is wrong and seeing that you are stating your assumptions which clearly don't even fit in as facts, you are wrong too. If you could be objective you would see how many holes are in your theory of suppression.
It's not like Uchiha's were always treated fairly but even Danzou got his chance ( assuming he wanted to get rid of Uchiha even before they planned a coup/treason) only after Mianto's death under suspicious circumstances. And guess what an Uchiha or two were involved. Even though the suspected ones had no idea.
I didn't say anything about Madara being a good guy. The clan ousted him, why would such a man care for them? My point being, Tobirama is to blame for how Madara reacted. He was always right in not trusting the Senju clan and so was Izuna.
And I didn't say anyone being a good boy. But Clan didn't oust him - he left it first.
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Hashi was popular choice but he was ready to let Madara be Hokage. Madara on the other hand was reading Uchiha stone tablets and planning his future with personal dream when he didn't became one.
Hashi had beaten him and he only
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Either way I don't see a reason why we should be even discussing it here. It has nothing to do with thread topic- which I find rather silly. Exactly how you would decide who is a better brother?
For someone a better brother can be the one who makes him proud following his ideals and for another, someone who just helps him hide when he comes back after killing of a neighbour while stealing his music system.
Pick some raw rice and cook up a Birayani adding a hell lot of your personal ingredients and then claim Kishi was the one to put the dish on the table. News flash- he can be held responsible for plain rice- not the biryani you are turning it in to. Same goes for me. Spare me your additions to what I said.
Damn how come I didn't see this thread. Madara was a better brother, Protected and cared for izunas wishes. Itachi on the other hand did some pretty horrible things to sasuke, the torturing and beating him up was retarded, planning to use genjuutsu on him to protect konoha which if worked means sasuke would be robbed of his free will and would be nothing more than a puppet of the village. All this shows is that itachi didn't even care abt sasukes wishes instead felt the need to be in total control of his life even after death, treating him more like a puppet rather than a brother. He did love sasuke tho but had a crazy way of showing it. Madara no dif
Are you sure it's not your personal bias exaggerating everything? I didn't gloss over anything. I was commenting about Itachi and Madara. The thread topic concerns them. You come in the thread and turn into a discussion over Tobirama.
Taking my one line comment and turning into something else. The same way you do with the manga. Pick some raw rice and cook up a birayani adding a hell lot of your personal ingredients and then claim Kishi was the one to put the dish on the table. News flash- he can be held responsible for plain rice- not the biryani you are turning it in to. Same goes for me. Spare me your additions to what I said.
Objectivity is a nice thing. Personal agendas are only a hindrance in any real discussion.
It could be a clean slate but Madara immediately turned hostile while they were still settling on hokage. Hashi tried to talk to him but he evaded him saying he had his own plans ( hello - he was already onto moon eye plan even before his own clan ignored him). Tobirama had his faults but you cannot put it all on to him. Especially since he could be flexible when Hashi would be strict.
Thwarted from Jounin council? I forgot the manga page regarding that- link me up the exact panel where it's mentioned. ( I'm bored with this thread now but I would like to remember for future reference if I ever get around to discuss it again).
Not a hokage candidate? Again Manga panel please. Uchihas held Jounin positions regularly. Even Sasuke's mothers was one. They took missions like others, were ANBU members. is there a reason to assume they were specifically disallowed to be in the council? Why Obito didn't know it even?
Tobirama selected next hokage ( at least an interim one on the spot), His method was pretty simple- Kagami could have volunteered for diversion as could other four. Hiruzen did it first and the Second made gave the seat to him. Danzou wanted the seat so he challenged Hiruzen and lost. It never came up but it wouldn't be surprising that other elders also felt a little jealous and tried to put pressure on him time to time to get things done their way but all this was never stated in clear terms. We just saw them siding with Danzou on occasion. Danzou was allowed to make Root - he was an extremist- an approach he clearly took to undermine Hiruzen too and we saw even Tsunade had felt the need to keep an eye on "root" too.
How can you disregard all this that multiple parties were playing their little games - and it's not like modern nations don't have all these issues even in democracies with all those phone taping cases or political murders etc. Doesn't lessens importance of the existence of the country and relative peace in them.
Kagami and other Uchihas were probably part of Jounin council when they were around. It's just that they wouldn't see eye to eye with Danzou on all issues.
Giving them a permanent position of power is not that much of a segregation. Uchihas could talk and say they didn't want it. Making them all cops might earn them some jealously from others but throughout the most of the manga they were not alienated till Minato died in Kyuubi attack and none of the Uchihas could help ( they were all absent somehow).
Obito always said he wanted to be Hokage and I see none of them telling him that Uchihas were barred. Nor an adult Obito now who has seen it all and more saying anything about Uchiha not being able to be a candidate. For all I know if the Kyuubi incident didn't happen Itachi some day might have been Hokage. Give me a panel where it says Uchihas couldn't get any other position. Itachi joined ANBU- his own clan sent him as an spy. It back fired but that's another story.
My humble opinion would be to tell you go back to reading manga again and tell me how come Obito is unaware of the law which prohibited him from being Hokage or anything else if he didn't want to be a cop while you somehow know. He always aimed for Hokage while in Konoha and openly talked about it. He still hasn't once said he was barred from it nor anyone else made such a suggestion.
Tell me where it is said Uchiha couldn't sell ice cream if they wanted to. They used to go on missions from Konoha. Konoha couldn't even afford to not use Uchiha nins. Past the massacre Konoha struggled to maintain it's position. Only Danzou was benefiting from it s in pushing Hokages to take help from ROOT after. Tsunade tried to resist even when she was having problems of lack of nins for missions. And would let the Team 7 which had Naruto the village jinchuriki, Kakashi an important nin and her student Sakura give time to find Sasuke among those conditions even. And wouldn't declare him a missing nin. Is that Senju hating on Uchiha blindly?
Irrelevant till you can find manga panel stating the things I asked above.
Yea he is wrong and seeing that you are stating your assumptions which clearly don't even fit in as facts, you are wrong too. If you could be objective you would see how many holes are in your theory of suppression.
It's not like Uchiha's were always treated fairly but even Danzou got his chance ( assuming he wanted to get rid of Uchiha even before they planned a coup/treason) only after Mianto's death under suspicious circumstances. And guess what an Uchiha or two were involved. Even though the suspected ones had no idea.
And I didn't say anyone being a good boy. But Clan didn't oust him - he left it first.
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Hashi was popular choice but he was ready to let Madara be Hokage. Madara on the other hand was reading Uchiha stone tablets and planning his future with personal dream when he didn't became one.
Hashi had beaten him and he only
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Either way I don't see a reason why we should be even discussing it here. It has nothing to do with thread topic- which I find rather silly. Exactly how you would decide who is a better brother?
For someone a better brother can be the one who makes him proud following his ideals and for another, someone who just helps him hide when he comes back after killing of a neighbour while stealing his music system.
If you had ever been paying attention, then I outright stated that I replied to the parts that looked quite iffy to me.
Are you seriously suggesting that I cannot understand a manga directed at 12 year olds? Now that sounds a bit too much like an insult. Never mind my intricate knowledge of literature, I know Biryani quite intimately. Any good cook knows what goes in it and which flavours make it tick. A simple clear cut manga doesn't result it a biryani, it's more of a boiled rice with a bit of raw mess thrown in between.
Funny, I see you persistently stating that Madara turned hostile, when the manga clearly and rather explicitly elucidates Tobirama's typicality. Madara overheard him and naturally, must have thought how his brother was not wrong about Senju Clan. Another news flash, Madara helped built the village, embraced the peace treaty. Yet, the man with so few short-comings forever haunted the clan, even after his death, quite literally.
Do I even need to tell you which Jounin Council I am talking about? I suggest you go and reread those manga parts and save us this entire trouble. The Uchiha Clan would have gained a Hokage position if even a single member of the clan was appointed within the council - because it's the voting of the council that plays a crucial part in this matter. It happened because they had been given a completely separate vocation, something which had nothing to do with the political infrastructure of the village. The fact that you are even asking for a scan goes to show who is making a tasteless biryani here.
Tobirama selected the next Hokage because his system allowed him. The man, who stopped Hashirama in the name of democracy, created a political system that completely abolished it. He did so because he knew the way things would transpire. At that time, he simply didn't want Madara to take the seat, that is all. To blatantly deny this is not even remotely hilarious. The main villages' political systems are a complete mimicry of what he created and we have seen the inner jounin workings in hidden Cloud, Sand, and Rock village. It isn't even about who offered, it's about whom he selected, as the ultimate decision rested on his shoulders. Good try on giving him a leeway though.
Completely baring them from taking a seat even within the council, let alone the Hokage position is not segregation? Nothing but your personal opinion. When one doesn't have any control over what goes around within the political setting, especially within a completely arbitrary set up, then it's extreme isolation, as even an attempt to gain a bit of political control results in slaughter of that group and it's exactly what happened with the Clan.
Secondly, how did Tobirama actually think it necessary to breach the iron-clad conditions of the treaty? Overlooking the fact that he did so without any consent from the other side isn't even remotely helping your argument. "Probably were a part of the the inner Jounin council"? Can I see even a single manga scan or even a slight implicature of this in the entire manga? When Orochimaru's conversation with Tobirama and the fact he completely separated them is proof enough?
Obito, the guy who keeps thinking about his thirteen year old past? He was barely thirteen and completely unaware of the village's political system. In fact, only the elder lobby - the elite council - is responsible for council's decisions. This is something not even the rest of the jounin council is aware of, which would explain why Kakashi was not privy to Obito's story of Uchia's rebellion, along with the Nara and Yamanaka clan members.
If this is the sole support argument you have, "Obito pined for Hokage seat, so they obviously were allowed", then you have practically nothing, as Obito was an orphan with no particular ties to the rest of the clan, which is why it was so easy for him to slaughter them. His story and Madara's story, bar the Kyubi incident are exactly alike. In fact, I will gladly take Fugaku and elite council's words over these assumptions.
What kind of argument is that? You have no proof to support any of your comments. Now you are using this weak ice-cream analogy ... seriously? Obito, Orochimaru, Tobirama policies, Elder's stance, their meetings, the Jounin council's seats, the interlacing stories of Madara, Obito, and then Orochimaru - in my humble opinion, I suggest you stop these tenuous comments because they are without merit. The missions have zero relevance to them being a part of inner jounin council. This point doesn't even make any sense.
So, let me get this straight, as long as Tobriama or his clan -which, FYI, completely supported his policies - don't yell in an angsty manner "WE HATE THE CLAN, WE HATE THE CLAN," I obviously have nothing? My goodness. Forget his policies, the fact that he abolished democracy, the fact that his clan supported him, the fact that he completely separated them from the main political lobby, the fact that he started the prolonged surveillance ... I obviously have little to go by here and it's obviously all irrelevant until I dig up these angsty scans?
It's irrelevant as you yourself have nothing to go by. Its relevance is as important as the arguer makes it to be. I am not liable to dig up common sense interpretation in a story that is as straight as an arrow. That is your responsibility.
Which points are assumptions? You have stretched a completely empty argument through several paragraphs and just simply don't want to accept that you are creating a logic that is baked by nothing, yet I am making assumptions? I see nothing but irony in this, because if all the clear cut incidents don't do it for your logic, then nothing will. If I am wrong , then you are more than welcome to point it out and I will accept it. So far, I see nothing to accept any fault in my argument. So let's be mature and not use this objective card. I am not objective and neither are you.
The Clan ousted him. Obito's story gives the full picture. Not sure which way you are going with this.
False. Where is your proof to back this up? Madara never read the Tablet for IT, not until Tobirama couldn't shut his blabber mouth. He knew the way things were going. It's too obvious. The manga outright shows an EMS Madara helping build the village and selecting its name. Yet he was reading tablets? Hashirama had beaten him and this has what significance to this argument?
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Yes, this is a tad bit off-topic, I agree. But there is no harm in expanding the discussion. After all, a lot of people are looking at this within the wider scope of Uchiha tragedy, hence, I don't think it's entirely off-topic.
