Come to think of it: Madara and Kaguya (At least by what we know so far) did not master the sage mode like Naruto did but received it when fusing with the Juubi or absorbing the nature chakra rather than kneading it like Naruto does.
This may very well be the edge Naruto have over the other spotlight characters.
Ok, but they're are seven of them, each with huge chakra reserves themselves. I know that, that's kind of the point of the thread, with all their help he can constantly be in SM and obviously BM, you could say the 2 now coincide with each other.
EDIT: In my OP what is Kurama doing then? I thought that was a meditative stance for gathering natural energy? And aren't the bijuu natural energy to begin with? Hence why they have elemental abilities?
No, that's not the case. Naruto has gotten only eight fragments of eight Bijū and one half of Kurama.
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He doesn't have their whole power-according to that scan and usual 'logic'.
Bijū are manifestations of chakra and don't consist of natural energy like the Jūbi. That's out of the picture. The body of the Jūbi which is known as Gedō Mazō is also responsible for those special characteristic.
Kuramas pose is just a sign of concentration. He needs to focus to build up new chakra. That's isn't senchakra otherwise the whole alliance would have turned already into a frog as well as Naruto when he was a child.
Kaguya has far more chakra than the Jūbi and therefore more than Naruto. No one besides Kaguya is able to use that dimension-ninjutsu, because only she has the required chakra pool(and the third eye too).
So the answer to your question is clearly no. Kaguya is the ancestor of all chakra and the reason why even she has to save some chakra is that, that her jutsu is just exceptional and she needs it for another, more important plan.
Come to think of it: Madara and Kaguya (At least by what we know so far) did not master the sage mode like Naruto did but received it when fusing with the Juubi or absorbing the nature chakra rather than kneading it like Naruto does.
This may very well be the edge Naruto have over the other spotlight characters.
Precisely, Sage Mode is a technique that one naturally gathers energy from nature, not by force. And as I said earlier Kurama is in the same meditative stance as Naruto when he was gathering natural energy.
No, that's not the case. Naruto has gotten only eight fragments of eight Bijū and one half of Kurama.
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He doesn't have their whole power-according to that scan and usual 'logic'.
Bijū are manifestations of chakra and don't consist of natural energy like the Jūbi. That's out of the picture. The body of the Jūbi which is known as Gedō Mazō is also responsible for those special characteristic.
Kuramas pose is just a sign of concentration. He needs to focus to build up new chakra. That's isn't senchakra otherwise the whole alliance would have turned already into a frog as well as Naruto when he was a child.
Kaguya has far more chakra than the Jūbi and therefore more than Naruto. No one besides Kaguya is able to use that dimension-ninjutsu, because only she has the required chakra pool(and the third eye too).
So the answer to your question is clearly no. Kaguya is the ancestor of all chakra and the reason why even she has to save some chakra is that, that her jutsu is just exceptional and she needs it for another, more important plan.
You're forgetting when Naruto met The Sage? They were all present.
How is the Jubi only made up of natural chakra and the tailed beasts aren't? The tailed beasts were created from the Jubi by The Sage.
Fair point about all them turning into frogs but where is Kurama gathering this chakra from then? And if he was gathering senchakra it would now be Kurama's which Naruto can make his and everybody else's.
And it's obvious she has more chakra (as seen with changing landscapes and dimension traveling) but does she have the ability to obtain more chakra when needed? If so why is Black Zetsu worried? BZ worried makes it seem like the chakra that Madara obtained along with the tree that stole others chakra eventually has a limit if used carelessly like Kaguya is doing.
As for the who came first argument, Tree or Kaguya? I'm leaning toward the tree simply because Kaguya couldn't of possibly had all that power or else why would she come to the land in the first place? The Jubi is probably a manifestation of both the tree and Kaguya, Kaguya is the consciousness you could say. Assuming the tree doesn't have feeling to taint its natural state and that when the Jubi/Kaguya saw Naruto it also saw the tailed beast then The Sage then began to show a type of anger.
Actually, you're wrong. He was surprised on how much chakra he was handling all at once, not how much he had. Besides, Naruto himself has only hokage level reserves, which is why he needs beasts to get chakra for him.
Nope, that doesn't matter. Gyūki even said only a part of him and the others are inside Naruto. Due to Hagoromos Rikudō Senjutsu, Naruto got a power close to a Jūbis Jinchūriki, but Kaguya is on a whole different level as we can see.
Hagoromo devided the body and chakra of the Jūbi. The remaining chakra became later known as the Bijū. It's logical if the Jūbi has different characterisrics than the Bijū, because Jūbi is complete(Body+ chakra).
The Bijū don't represent the force of nature.
Fair point about all them turning into frogs but where is Kurama gathering this chakra from then? And if he was gathering senchakra it would now be Kurama's which Naruto can make his and everybody else's.
No, that's not how senchakra works. If someone can't control it (and Naruto couldn't handle senchakra as a child, that's a given fact) he will turn into a stone.
Nope, that doesn't matter. Gyūki even said only a part of him and the others are inside Naruto. Due to Hagoromos Rikudō Senjutsu, Naruto got a power close to a Jūbis Jinchūriki, but Kaguya is on a whole different level as we can see.
But yet we see a complete 8 tails. He only had a portion of every tailed beast in that point in time, the majority were in the with the Jubi, but yet they are all there.
Hagoromo devided the body and chakra of the Jūbi. The remaining chakra became later known as the Bijū. It's logical if the Jūbi has different characterisrics than the Bijū, because Jūbi is complete(Body+ chakra).
The Bijū don't represent the force of nature.
This makes me wonder my previous point, if the Jubi was reserected/complete how could The Sage "summon" the bijuu still? And how don't the represent nature when they are a piece of the Jubi, who like you said represents nature chakra?
No, that's not how senchakra works. If someone can't control it (and Naruto couldn't handle senchakra as a child, that's a given fact) he will turn into a stone.
But as soon as it becomes Kurama's chakra, if in fact he is gathering senchakra, it's no longer senchakra. If the bijuu, who came from Jubi, are not made up of senchakra where does their chakra come from?
But the Bijū don't have their full power. That's the point.
Hagoromo didn't summon the Bijū. Jūbi is in this context an independent being. Only all characteristics together of the Bijū chakra+ body can represent the nature. Actually, to be correct. The Jūbis chakra should be called Rikudō no Sennin chakra, the hermit chakra of the six path.
If someone builds senchakra, then its attributes won't change. As long as nature energy is involved, there is senchakra.
This is impossible. Kaguya is the juubi which means she is natural energy basically. There is no way naruto can gather more energy than her. IMO, her biggest shortcoming is that she doesnt really know jutsu, she only knows how to use chakra on a basic/intuitive level. The most recent chapter confirmed that her chakra isn't limitless but that doesn't mean she's weaker than naruto.
Plus, you'd have to imagine that kaguya hasn't really collected all the chakra in the world yet or else everybody tied to the trees would be dead. So, there is a possibility she could get immensely stronger.
But the Bijū don't have their full power. That's the point.
Hagoromo didn't summon the Bijū. Jūbi is in this context an independent being. Only all characteristics together of the Bijū chakra+ body can represent the nature. Actually, to be correct. The Jūbis chakra should be called Rikudō no Sennin chakra, the hermit chakra of the six path.
If someone builds senchakra, then its attributes won't change. As long as nature energy is involved, there is senchakra.
If he didn't summon them what happened then? He called upon them and they showed up. How aren't the bijuu independent? They make there own choices, ex: Kurama gives his chakra to Kakashi and basically throwing Kakashi in the Kamui dimension. If I'm not mistake he even formulated plans and took the leader role against the Jubi at one point.
So is it safe to say the cursed mark isn't senchakra even though originated from jugos clan? Or did Sasuke's susanoo with Jugo's senchakra retain these attributes some how? And how isn't Sasuke a frog by now? (Maybe Oro explains this)
This is impossible. Kaguya is the juubi which means she is natural energy basically. There is no way naruto can gather more energy than her. IMO, her biggest shortcoming is that she doesnt really know jutsu, she only knows how to use chakra on a basic/intuitive level. The most recent chapter confirmed that her chakra isn't limitless but that doesn't mean she's weaker than naruto.
Plus, you'd have to imagine that kaguya hasn't really collected all the chakra in the world yet or else everybody tied to the trees would be dead. So, there is a possibility she could get immensely stronger.
Sure she is the Jubi, but Naruto has the 9 (or 10) tailed beasts that make up the 10 tails at his will, plus they have a concious.
You say she is (all) natural energy but yet you say her energy isn't limitless, I find that I tad contradicting. But maybe that goes with the point afterwards saying she could get stronger which I can agree with but it's still strange that BZ is worried about her energy level if she can get more with ease. Either way if she is natural chakra is Naruto basically stealing chakra from her while in SM then?
